From: Jeff Heinen  <jeffh@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

At 10:23 PM 2/19/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
>
>
> >       I've also been considering building a "perl" plugin or module for
> > Shadow Desktop (depends on the licensing of perl and free time).. so you
> > could extend Shadow Desktop in perl. That'd make peopel go mental, but
> > coudl also accelerate development, since knocking out perl is easier
>than
> > 'C' code :) So if I get ambitious, I might make the import/export future
> > system all perl based, with tie-ins to the Shadow Desktop core. Sick
>sick
> > sick :)
> >
> >             jeff
>
>
>perl rules...
>
>-Tom

I'd agree here.  Adding perl support would be the thing that would push me 
over the edge, eat a little more ramen for a week or three, and pony up the 
cash. Even at the higher rate. The ability to get it to my remote box where 
I can mess with/display/organize is is basically my one last 'must have' 
feature. (Plus, I know perl a lot better then anything else and would be 
prone/able to tinker with it to suit my whims. :_) )

Question: Have you considered alternate methods of selling? If the stores 
keep raising their costs, would it be better to find a way to drop then in 
total? Or can you?

-J

From: harid harid@y...  <harid@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:22pm
Subject: A few things...

- I run Shadow on a visor deluxe and use it as a ToDO replacement. I 
have all my todo's in one file and I found it takes a while to load 
up. I was wondering if I just terminate the linkage to "TODO" app, 
things might be faster. Unfortunately, I found there is no one-shot 
mechanism to do this, I have to remove the link from every item, very 
tedious. Is a feature like "sever all links" u would consider?(maybe 
group it by app, like sever all todo links).

Also, I use a single file for Todo, would like the ability to link sp 
to the hardware todo button as well as open a specific file when this 
button is pressed.

In 2.7.12, in link manager, when I press "delete" without a link 
selected, crash in memorymgr.c(nil pointer).

Thanks,
-hari

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:02am
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Jeff Heinen wrote:

> I'd agree here.  Adding perl support would be the thing that would push me 
> over the edge, eat a little more ramen for a week or three, and pony up the 
> cash. Even at the higher rate. The ability to get it to my remote box where 
> I can mess with/display/organize is is basically my one last 'must have' 
> feature. (Plus, I know perl a lot better then anything else and would be 
> prone/able to tinker with it to suit my whims. :_) )

	If people bug me, I could add the pre-sync, post-sync type
launching a reality pretty quick. (ie: No built in scripting, but the
ability for the conduit to invoke sed scripts/batchfiles/executables would
be easy.)

> Question: Have you considered alternate methods of selling? If the
> stores keep raising their costs, would it be better to find a way to
> drop then in total? Or can you?

	Thats why we have Codejedi Store nowadays ;)  Palmgear raised
their cut 10% or so, and Handango raised theirs 15%, a year ago give or
take. Plus of course there was the ugliness with PG and other sellers
earlier this year, people illegally selling the software, yadda yadda. So
now we have CJstore which does a good job and has a good cut rate.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:05am
Subject: Re: A few things...

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:

> - I run Shadow on a visor deluxe and use it as a ToDO replacement. I
> have all my todo's in one file and I found it takes a while to load
> up. I was wondering if I just terminate the linkage to "TODO" app,
> things might be faster. Unfortunately, I found there is no one-shot
> mechanism to do this, I have to remove the link from every item, very
> tedious. Is a feature like "sever all links" u would consider?(maybe
> group it by app, like sever all todo links).

	You can turn on the optional "todo link" column, so it becomes 1
tap to remove the link. However, thats not a sever.. it removes the link
and the linked object :/ Does that help?

	And yeah, that would significantly decrease the time to open the
file; checking link integrity is the main speed hit. It also depends how
big the list is.. how many items are in it? A visor deluxe doens't have
the newestOS or the most memory, so if its getting tight, it'll slow down
a lot.

> Also, I use a single file for Todo, would like the ability to link sp 
> to the hardware todo button as well as open a specific file when this 
> button is pressed.

	I may add a "always goto this file" pref; keep bugging me.

> In 2.7.12, in link manager, when I press "delete" without a link 
> selected, crash in memorymgr.c(nil pointer).

	Thanks, I'll take a look.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: tanker_bob rmattes@c...  <rmattes@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:54am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

I guess I'm getting in late in this game, but I don't see a problem 
with it.  I went for Shadow because of its power and functionality.  
The low cost figured in, but wasn't the overriding factor.  I 
would've picked it up at $22.95 w/the desktop piece.  To be honest, 
your outstanding support and lifetime free upgrade policy are worth 
more than that.

Regards,
Tanker Bob
http://www.tankerbob.com/palm/
Global moderator at http://www.pdaavenue.com/

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for 
support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. 
Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or 
so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 
instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our 
resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than 
stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so 
little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of 
$12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

From: jaycotton101 jaycotton101@y...  <jaycotton101@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:01am
Subject: Linking to item already in datebook

Hopefully I'm addressing the right forum w/ this question :-)

I'm having trouble linking a Shadow list item to a pre-assigned item in the datebook.  The manual seems to suggest this is possible, but I can't find a section that explains how.  I'm probably overlooking something obvious, but what's new...?  

Anybody have an answer?

Jay

From: Nancy  <wdw84@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:20am
Subject: RE: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

Well, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked the old drag and drop
better.  I liked being able to place items *exactly* where I wanted them
at the level I wanted them.  In the new system if you have top level
items with children, is there any way to move a top level item in the
list without it ending up as a child?  So far the only ways I see to do
so are to either drop it as a child and then promote, or collapse the
list first and then d&d it.

Nancy

From: harid harid@y...  <harid@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:53am
Subject: Re: A few things...

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:
> 
> > - I run Shadow on a visor deluxe and use it as a ToDO 
replacement. I
> > have all my todo's in one file and I found it takes a while to 
load
> > up. I was wondering if I just terminate the linkage to "TODO" app,
> > things might be faster. Unfortunately, I found there is no one-
shot
> > mechanism to do this, I have to remove the link from every item, 
very
> > tedious. Is a feature like "sever all links" u would consider?
(maybe
> > group it by app, like sever all todo links).
> 
> 	You can turn on the optional "todo link" column, so it 
becomes 1
> tap to remove the link. However, thats not a sever.. it removes the 
link
> and the linked object :/ Does that help?

That helps...at first I did not like the "delete", I would have liked 
to retain the todo's in the todo app, however, I realized I could 
just easily have SP recreate them back in the todo DB with 1-click. 
So it is not that bad, it works. Still the "Sever/Delete ALL 
(TODO/Address/File links) feature might be useful. The unfortunate 
thing is SP is not any significantly faster after all links were 
removed. I have about 50 items. The visor has 8MB!(don't think it is 
short of memory, 1396K free out of 7936K) and the OS is 3.1H3(as high 
as it gets on a Visor, I guess!)

> 
> 	And yeah, that would significantly decrease the time to open 
the
> file; checking link integrity is the main speed hit. It also 
depends how
> big the list is.. how many items are in it? A visor deluxe doens't 
have
> the newestOS or the most memory, so if its getting tight, it'll 
slow down
> a lot.
> 
> > Also, I use a single file for Todo, would like the ability to 
link sp 
> > to the hardware todo button as well as open a specific file when 
this 
> > button is pressed.
> 
> 	I may add a "always goto this file" pref; keep bugging me.
> 
> > In 2.7.12, in link manager, when I press "delete" without a link 
> > selected, crash in memorymgr.c(nil pointer).
> 
> 	Thanks, I'll take a look.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

From: harid harid@y...  <harid@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:07am
Subject: How do I create this slightly complex filter?

I need a filter for this:

(startdt is present AND startdt <= this week) OR (targetdt is present 
AND targetdt <= this week) and checked is false

This needs an "AND" within a subgroup and OR between subgroups. I 
could not figure out how to do this.

I have some items with and without "target dt", similary some with 
and without "start dt". I need this filter to give me all items that 
either started this week or that have a target date of this week, 
while ignoring all the non-dated ones.

To do this, looks like we need the ability to create subgroups, 
choose the op within a subgroup and also be able to chose the op to 
combine subgroups. Any ideas?

-hari

From: harid harid@y...  <harid@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:30am
Subject: Another filter question

I tried to create a filter called "AnyDatePresent" like this:

startdt is present OR targetdt is present or finishdt is present

Unable to create this. I put each of them in their own OR groups but 
eventually I think they all got ANDed. Looks like the OR is only 
within a subgroup. 

It almost looks like we need "AND/OR" control at individual item 
level. Maybe hide this kind of complexity in an advanced filter 
creation level, if the current setting works for most people.

-hari

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:24am
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:
> 
> > <For those who care: Kyocera 6035, OS 3.5.3, SP HH 2.7.12>
> 
> 	This is relevent; on OS3.x the tab control redraw as panels change

Oh, Jeff! ... I just put it up there since someone suggested it either
be in the title or at the top... ;)

<snip>
> > I think the tab outlines don't work with the attempted "overlap"
look
> > you've got, unless maybe if you put "decenders" on each side of
the
> > highlighted tab to dummy up the "ends" of the tabs next to them. 
> > Maybe it wouldn't look so "faked" that way...
> 
> 	Is this a black and white unit? On the older units (I think b/w,
> maybe colour?) the tabs dont' overlay properly.. there is a bit of
white

Greyscale. (4-bit)

The tabs seem to display as rectangles with tabs drawn in them.  So
the end of the next tab over gets lopped off.  The white tab always
has its proper "tails" but the dark tabs get truncated.  It seems to
depend on tab plot order as to which ones get trimmed.
 
<snip>
> 
> > At first I thought this was new to the preview, but I reloaded
2.7.2
> > and it was there too, I just never noticed.
> > 
> > When you use a Tasklist item as the top level item, the checkbox
> > covers up the expand/collapse arrow.
> > 
> > I have:
> > (a) indent expand/collapse arrow ON
> > (b) checkbox instead of circle.
> > (c) priority number instead of bubble.
> 
> 	I enable these options and its no problem for a Tasklist.
> 
> 	Does it only occur when yo mix tasklista nd non-tasklist items?
> 

Do you have "indent priority bubble" OFF?  It only happens if this
option is off.

After playing with it a while, I found flipping those three options
(above) on and off had no effect on the bug.  I just thought they
might when I wrote it up.

I was using one of my test lists, they are completely mixed ... I
don't think two adjacent items in it have the same display properties!

I'll try creating the condition in a fresh list and report back.

... Ok, I couldn't *stand* not knowing...

I *found* it!  Its based on whether the list's type contains priority
or not.

If I create either tasklist or custom items with priority and checkbox
  and then set the list's type to anything that does not contain
priority, the overlap occurs on the tasklist and custom items at the
top level.

If I set the list to Tasklist, Custom (in this case), or Worksheet the
overlap goes away. (note all contain priority)  Any other type and I
get overlap.

If I create a Custom type (per list custom) without the priority, the
overlap appears in top level tasklist items when the list's type is
set to Custom.

If I then go add priority to the Custom type, Voila, the overlap is
gone.

In all cases of overlap, if I set the global "indent priority bubble"
to ON, the overlap goes away.

Is that enough to go on?


Ken

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:44am
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

<snip>
> I'll try creating the condition in a fresh list and report back.
> 
> ... Ok, I couldn't *stand* not knowing...
> 
> I *found* it!  Its based on whether the list's type contains
priority
> or not.
> 
> If I create either tasklist or custom items with priority and
checkbox
>   and then set the list's type to anything that does not contain
> priority, the overlap occurs on the tasklist and custom items at the
> top level.
> 
<etc.>

UPDATE.

I found that items that do not have a checkbox also get their
expand/collapse arrows hidden by overlap.

Items affected:
A top level item (with children) and the priority showing.

When:
The list's type is set to a builtin or user view type that does not
display priority.

Work around:
Turn "indent priority bubble" ON.


Ken

Kyocera 6035, OS 3.5.3, SP HH 2.7.12

From: Justin Nelson  <justinn@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:37am
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

>On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Justin Nelson wrote:
>
> > My comments on things new in 2.7.12 on a Palm Tungsten (OS5):
> >
> >          o New tab control for List Prefs and Global Prefs
> >
> > After taking a look at this in List Preferences (very nice, BTW!) and
> > clicking “OK”, I received a fatal alert: “MemoryMgr.c, Line:3650,
> > Non-word-aligned handle”. This was *not* repeated when I tried again,
> > having disabled Graffiti Anywhere.  I think you have achieved your goal
> > (making configuration easier to use) with this change
>
>At 17:04 19/02/2003 +0000, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>         Great! However.. that crash.. its happened to about 3 people as
>far as I know. Weird. It happened *after* you hit "OK" though?

Yes - definitely after/as I hit "OK"

<SNIP>

> >          o "Sort undated to bottom" is now available in list prefs
> >
> > Err … I checked this, and undated items stayed at the top; I unchecked and
> > re-checked it, closed and opened the list, and undated items still stayed
> > at the top; I unchecked and re-checked it, closed and opened Shadow, and
> > undated items *still* stayed at the top;  what am I doing wrong?!
>
>         You have to hit "sort" ;)

DOH!!!!


Justin Nelson (using a Palm Tungsten T with OS v.5, DateBk5 and ShadowPlan 
in particular)

From: Rita  <rblanzan@i...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:12pm
Subject: RE: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

> > Auto import - works well except that I am puzzled as to how shadow
> > know where to import the items?  I tried a couple of things and it
> > seems to put them in a list called "todo list" regardless of what I
>
> 	If you turn on "auto import" in a list, it will auto import into
> itself only. If you turn auto import on in 3 lists, they'll all auto
> import :) You must have turned auto import on in your "todo list" :)

Yes, that's it, I get it now, I have so much faith in Shadow that I don't
have a test list, I just do tests on my main list :)

>
> > do.  This is fine by me, but it puzzles me.  I would like to see the
> > [[[ ]]] remain for items that I want to go to other lists.  Also, I
>
> 	Currently, the [[[]]] remains. (Doesn't it?)

Haven't tried, it never even occurred to me to try it.  :/

Rita

From: Nancy  <wdw84@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:18pm
Subject: RE: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

Would LOVE to see this implemented.  Consider yourself bugged, Jeff ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:46 AM
>          o New drag and drop system
> 
> I had no problems with the old system, but this one seems fine, too

	Hopefully easier for newbies. I may add a pref to turn on
"enahnced drag and drop", which would let you do more. We'll see.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:49pm
Subject: Re: Linking to item already in datebook

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, jaycotton101 <jaycotton101@y...> wrote:

> Hopefully I'm addressing the right forum w/ this question :-)

	Sure is :)

> I'm having trouble linking a Shadow list item to a pre-assigned item
> in the datebook.  The manual seems to suggest this is possible, but I
> can't find a section that explains how.  I'm probably overlooking
> something obvious, but what's new...?

	Try "New From .." in the Item menu.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:52pm
Subject: RE: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Nancy wrote:

> Well, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked the old drag and drop
> better.  I liked being able to place items *exactly* where I wanted
> them at the level I wanted them.  In the new system if you have top
> level items with children, is there any way to move a top level item
> in the list without it ending up as a child?  So far the only ways I
> see to do so are to either drop it as a child and then promote, or
> collapse the list first and then d&d it.

	I will likely add an "advanced drag and drop" preference to the
global prefs, so that people can chose the basic DnD we have now, or a
slightly more powerful one (that has learning curve) later. So I'll get
you taken care of, too. The new code is more stable anyway :)

	Right now.. dropping between two items of the same level
(insertion line shown) will always insert at the same level as them (right
between them) just like you want.

	However, dropping between two items of different levels will drop
at the deeper level.

	Examples:

	"----" is the insertion line.

Example 1:

A
-----
B

	This will drop the dragged item between A and B, nomatter how deep
they are.

Example 2:

A
-----
.	B

	This will drop as a child of A, right above B (same level as B)

Example 3:

.	A
----------
B

	This will drop same level as A, right below A.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: A few things...

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:

> That helps...at first I did not like the "delete", I would have liked
> to retain the todo's in the todo app, however, I realized I could just
> easily have SP recreate them back in the todo DB with 1-click.  So it
> is not that bad, it works. Still the "Sever/Delete ALL
> (TODO/Address/File links) feature might be useful. The unfortunate
> thing is SP is not any significantly faster after all links were
> removed. I have about 50 items. The visor has 8MB!(don't think it is
> short of memory, 1396K free out of 7936K) and the OS is 3.1H3(as high
> as it gets on a Visor, I guess!)

	50 items is a small list and should load pretty fast; the only
way that should be slow is if your memory is tight (see below) or if you
have a tonne of large notes in there. (Notes eat up a lot of memory, and
Shadow has to index the heck out of them to make using them fast, so on
openign a list with a lot of notes, Shadow may go index crazy)

	The free memory does not refer to the 8MB; The OS must divide up
your 8MB into different memory areas,.. the "storage memory" is most of it
(probably 7.5MB out of your 8, or more). Theres also screen memory to hold
whats on the screen, and theres "runtime memory" that is used by
applications and hacks and whatnot. So on OS3.5 you actually only have
about 150K of runtime memory for applications (tight!). Every Hack takes
away from this pool of memory, too.. so if your'e running a half dozen
hacks, you've likely only got 50 or 100K of ram for apps to run in. Shadow
likes lots of RAM, however a few hacks shouldn't be an issue whatsoever.

	Anyway.. the two biggest factors for load time are links, and
large notes.

	But a 50 item list should be a snap...

	Its when you've got a few hundred items, on a old Visor, that it
should start to slow down a little..

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:57pm
Subject: Re: Another filter question

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:

> I tried to create a filter called "AnyDatePresent" like this:
> 
> startdt is present OR targetdt is present or finishdt is present
> 
> Unable to create this. I put each of them in their own OR groups but 
> eventually I think they all got ANDed. Looks like the OR is only 
> within a subgroup. 

	All the groups are ANDed together, though everything within an OR
group is ORed. ie: if yuo have group A and group B then at least one thign
from each of group A and B must match.. but within A, any one of those
things will do.

> It almost looks like we need "AND/OR" control at individual item
> level. Maybe hide this kind of complexity in an advanced filter
> creation level, if the current setting works for most people.

	Yeah, we coudl go further with the boolean logic.. howeverm, it is
already fairly powerful, and too complex for most people. Making it even
mroe complex.. worries me :/  If I get lots of free time (har :) I might
come up with some simple interface for more complex stuff.. we'll have to
see.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Justin Nelson wrote:

> >At 17:04 19/02/2003 +0000, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> >         Great! However.. that crash.. its happened to about 3 people as
> >far as I know. Weird. It happened *after* you hit "OK" though?
> 
> Yes - definitely after/as I hit "OK"

	Weird. Let me know if you see it again..

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Anthony L. Wright  <wrightal@o...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:11pm
Subject: Weighing in on Desktop, Users Guide

I must be different from many others, but I use the Desktop 95% of the time 
- I see improving the Desktop as more important than developing an update 
Users Guide.  Still, having an up-to-date Users Guide is important also.



Dr. Anthony L. Wright, Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Engineering Science and Technology Division
National Transportation Research Center
2360 Cherahala Boulevard, Room K01
Knoxville, TN  37932-6472
phone:  865-946-1353, fax:  865-946-1355
pager:  1-888-862-9959 (new Skytel pager 4/1/02)
email:  wrightal@o...
wrist watch email:  8888629959@t... (short messsages)
cellular phone:  865-719-4552

From: mzehner2000 matt_zehner@p...  <matt_zehner@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Weighing in on Desktop, Users Guide

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony L. Wright" 
<wrightal@o...> wrote:
> I must be different from many others, but I use the Desktop 95% of 
the time 
> - I see improving the Desktop as more important than developing an 
update 
> Users Guide.  Still, having an up-to-date Users Guide is important 
also.
> 


Plus, if you update the Desktop first, you can include all those 
great updates in the User Guide without further revisions!

;-)

(I'm eager for both, but probably favor the desktop by a bit.)

Cheers,
Matt

From: jaycotton101 jaycotton101@y...  <jaycotton101@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:30pm
Subject: Operating on multiple items

Is there any way to select several items and perform an operation 
(delete, promote, etc.) on all of them at once?  I'm pretty new to 
Palm software in general, but so far it seems like this kind of thing 
is impossible in all programs.  Why is that?  Am I missing something?

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:59pm
Subject: Re: Operating on multiple items

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, jaycotton101 <jaycotton101@y...> wrote:

> Is there any way to select several items and perform an operation
> (delete, promote, etc.) on all of them at once?  I'm pretty new to

	You can do some Shadow operations on groups.. ie: You can "copy
all checked" and things like that, and theres "uncheck all" and such. And
even some operations work within the current "zoom".. so if you zoom into
a sublevel, then "collapse all" works only on the zoomed stuff.

	But yeah, in general, most of the time its only one item at a
time.

> Palm software in general, but so far it seems like this kind of thing
> is impossible in all programs.  Why is that?  Am I missing something?

	Its because Palm OS software has to work fast and have a quick
intuitive simple interface.. so you can start an app up and be useful,a nd
no extar tapping or screwing around. The size of the application is also
important.. Shadow does a huge amount of work, yet still squeeks in under
300k. Adding a more general interface would probably add another 50k or
100k to it :)

	ie: I could (and have often considered) add a optional column for
checkboxes that are used for selection. But then suddenly you're checking
to select an item for the operation. Does that mean to do the operation
nomally, you'd have to have these boxes visible, and check them? Thats an
extra tap or more likely for basic operations, and certainly people don't
have screen space to throw away for that column all the time. Tap-and-hold
to select isn't intuitive, and is too slow for many items.

	Its one of those things that takes a lot of work to "get right",
and not a lot of people need it, and it bloats up the app and makes the
app more complicated.. all things Palm OS stands against.

	We want it lean and fast.

	(Though obviously Shadow is power-packed.. I get a few complaints
a day about people who do not want to use it because it is too powerful or
too complex. It breaks my heart, too. So imagine if it was more complex
again, by being able to work on multiple operations..)

	But.. sooner or later, it'll get in there in some form. Its
something I'd like to have, too :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: ::.jay.west  <lists@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:25pm
Subject: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?

I just picked up my new Tungsten T and immediately installed Shadow and
stitched it to hiRes. Wow! I can finally see what I have been missing!

Can anyone suggest which pleasing font combinations they have been using in
Shadow on their hiRes TT? The default ones are just a bit too tiny.

j.

From: jaycotton101 jaycotton101@y...  <jaycotton101@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:49pm
Subject: Sort by creation date

I would enjoy being able to sort by creation date.  Some of my lists 
are very informal, and they don't have target dates or tags or 
priorities, but it would be nice to sort them so I could focus on 
items that are getting stale.  Perhaps a "creation date" column in 
the view manager?  Anybody else want this capability?

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:51pm
Subject: Re: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, ::.jay.west wrote:

> I just picked up my new Tungsten T and immediately installed Shadow and
> stitched it to hiRes. Wow! I can finally see what I have been missing!

	*g* Be sure to set your colour themes all up nice :)

	After a year or two of high res, I've been thinking about going
back to "low res" mode .. tired eyes :)

> Can anyone suggest which pleasing font combinations they have been using in
> Shadow on their hiRes TT? The default ones are just a bit too tiny.

	I usually use the "large font"; the built in one.The large bold
font sort of stinks, so you might want another.. but I don't use bolding
much so I just live with the built in large normal font.. its a little
larger than the normal font.. so in high res it gets you another 30% more
text or so, but without being "too small".

	I'm boring though :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:15pm
Subject: Re: Sort by creation date

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "jaycotton101
<jaycotton101@y...>" <jaycotton101@y...> wrote:
> I would enjoy being able to sort by creation date.  Some of my lists 
> are very informal, and they don't have target dates or tags or 
> priorities, but it would be nice to sort them so I could focus on 
> items that are getting stale.  Perhaps a "creation date" column in 
> the view manager?  Anybody else want this capability?

You can sort by creation date (in Menu->List->Sort) but you can't view
it without going into each entry.

-Tom

From: jaycotton101 jaycotton101@y...  <jaycotton101@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:50pm
Subject: Sort by creation date

I would enjoy being able to sort by creation date.  Some of my lists 
are very informal, and they don't have target dates or tags or 
priorities, but it would be nice to sort them so I could focus on 
items that are getting stale.  Perhaps a "creation date" column in 
the view manager?  Anybody else want this capability?

From: tes08558 sicora@e...  <sicora@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:37pm
Subject: Re: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?

Come on guys - with Font Bucket you can download some really great
fonts right from your own system - it you used this feature you
wouldn't think of going back to low res!

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, ::.jay.west wrote:
> 
> > I just picked up my new Tungsten T and immediately installed
Shadow and
> > stitched it to hiRes. Wow! I can finally see what I have been missing!
> 
> 	*g* Be sure to set your colour themes all up nice :)
> 
> 	After a year or two of high res, I've been thinking about going
> back to "low res" mode .. tired eyes :)
> 
> > Can anyone suggest which pleasing font combinations they have been
using in
> > Shadow on their hiRes TT? The default ones are just a bit too tiny.
> 
> 	I usually use the "large font"; the built in one.The large bold
> font sort of stinks, so you might want another.. but I don't use bolding
> much so I just live with the built in large normal font.. its a little
> larger than the normal font.. so in high res it gets you another 30%
more
> text or so, but without being "too small".
> 
> 	I'm boring though :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

From: harid harid@y...  <harid@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:49pm
Subject: Re: Another filter question

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:
> 
> > I tried to create a filter called "AnyDatePresent" like this:
> > 
> > startdt is present OR targetdt is present or finishdt is present
> > 
> > Unable to create this. I put each of them in their own OR groups 
but 
> > eventually I think they all got ANDed. Looks like the OR is only 
> > within a subgroup. 
> 
> 	All the groups are ANDed together, though everything within 
an OR
> group is ORed. ie: if yuo have group A and group B then at least 
one thign
> from each of group A and B must match.. but within A, any one of 
those
> things will do.
> 
> > It almost looks like we need "AND/OR" control at individual item
> > level. Maybe hide this kind of complexity in an advanced filter
> > creation level, if the current setting works for most people.
> 
> 	Yeah, we coudl go further with the boolean logic.. howeverm, 
it is
> already fairly powerful, and too complex for most people. Making it 
even
> mroe complex.. worries me :/  If I get lots of free time (har :) I 
might
> come up with some simple interface for more complex stuff.. we'll 
have to
> see.

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that filters are 
already fairly poweful. I ran into roadblocks with just the 3rd and 
4th filter I tried to create in SP. They were:

1. (startdt is present AND startdt <= this week) OR (targetdt is 
present AND targetdt <= this week) and checked is false
2. startdt is present OR targetdt is present or finishdt is present

I would think once most people start creating custom filters, they 
would easily get to this level of complexity.

As for a solution, I was thinking if we allow "(", ")", "OR" 
and "AND" as the various ops, then one should be able to create any 
boolean logic from simple to complex(incl. my filters!). This should 
still keep the UI simple and probably more in sync with how people 
think of boolean expressions. I would really appreciate if you would 
seriously consider this. I already have stopped using multiple dates 
in my items(only using targetdt), would hate to have to keep myself 
increasingly restricted from using all SP features. Thanks.

-hari

From: mushp2000 mush@c...  <mush@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 0:42am
Subject: 2.17 D&D

I do far less "unintended" D&D with the current method and prefer it.

Mush

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:11am
Subject: Filter idea

Don't know if it's feasible or not, but it would be awesome if one
could AND/OR one or more already existing filters into another filter.

-Tom

From: Morgan Young  <morgan@p...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:26am
Subject: PURGE

Alright, how do you purge completed items?
just like in datebk, or in Todo program?
am i really missing something?

From: scarlet_vx scarlet_vx@y...  <scarlet_vx@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:34am
Subject: Re: Shadowplan 2.7.12 Beta

Tab control:  Works fine.  Took some getting used to.

Drag and drop:  Works very nicely.  I prefer this version.

Auto import ToDos: a wonderful feature!   I use Shadow as my ToDo 
action list, but I use DayNotez to journal meeting notes and send 
action items to ToDo on the fly.  The auto import takes all the extra 
work of getting these items from the ToDo database into Shadow.  I 
usually move such items from "IN" to another list.  This severs the 
link.  I have the options set to delete  item deletes links, so I 
don't have to go back to delete the items from the ToDo database, 
which I really like.  (This works great for me, but I wonder if some 
people would want to be able to move items from list to list while 
retaining the same ToDo link.)

It would probably be useful if ToDos with [[[ ]]] designations can go 
to their specific lists and not to the list set on auto import.  And 
yes, an option not to import completed ToDos would be nice.

I was brave and set two lists to autoimport new ToDos.  It worked 
fine but I can't imagine why one would really want to import the same 
todo on to multiple lists.  If you delete the item from one list the 
item stays on the other with a broken link.

I also experimented with importing datebook items.  Here I DON'T want 
to delete the calendar entry if I delete in Shadow, so if you develop 
a way to selectively turn off 'delete item deletes links' that would 
be useful.  I believe I can sever the link manually before deleting, 
but for now I probably will not use datebook links.

Sort undated to bottom:  This isn't a feature I would normally use.  
I turned it on in one list and added some target dates.  It didn't 
seem to have an effect.  Perhaps I don't understand how that option 
is supposed to work.  

I own a Sony Clie T-615-C.  No problems whatsoever.

This opened up a lot of useful experimenting on my part.  Thanks, 
Jeff.

From: karjar358 karjar@s...  <karjar@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:30am
Subject: Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12

I am just rebuilding my Tungsten. I have to admit that I moved away 
from Shadow to Bonsai because I NEEDED a desktop to be able to share 
project outlines with team members. Now that I have reloaded the 
beta of Shadow, I am not sure if there is something wrong or is the 
design such that the Tungsten Nav Pad does nothing. No page up or 
down or line scrolling in Outline list or within an outline. I must 
admit that one very nice surprise with Bonsai was its adaptation to 
the tungsten nav pad. scroll up/down, expand or collapse using 
left/right, and go to details by pressing select. It is a really 
nice stylus free use of the Tungsten.
So two questions (besides the inevitable desktop question :) ) 
should the navpad not at least scroll up and down through the list? 
and 2) Any thought of building navigation in like I mentioned above. 
Really is great!!
Still a fantastic product though Jeff. I really miss the palm app 
while I was using Bonsai (other than that Nav feature in it) but I 
need a desktop with clean flexible printing.
jeff

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:53am
Subject: Re: Another filter question

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:
<snip>
> 	Yeah, we coudl go further with the boolean logic.. howeverm, it is
> already fairly powerful, and too complex for most people. Making it
even
> mroe complex.. worries me :/  If I get lots of free time (har :) I
might
> come up with some simple interface for more complex stuff.. we'll
have to
> see.
> 
> 		jeff

Jeff, I was playing around with this mathematically, and I've come to
the conclusion that I need you to implement one of two things to make
these expressions general.

I tried to build a filter out of two that I have by "OR"ing them
together.  So I'd get "overdue" and "next week's important" lists in
one filter...

But to put it in the "AND of ORs" form, I only know one way to convert
from OR of ANDs.  That would be double negation (forming the
contrapositive).  But to do this I need to have a switch that negates
the entire filter and one to negate a group as a whole.

Obviously, that would be a technical way to do it... but the "easy"
way (for *me* anyway) is for you to implement the "OR"ing of two
existing filters into a new (super?) filter.  (which would allow me to
 leave the expression in an OR of ANDs form.)


So I would like to formally request, either...

(1) a "reversed" check box that applies to the filter as a whole.
and one that negates a group (thus 3, one for each group possible).

OR

(2) a way to build "super" filters by ORing "normal" filters together.

Ken

P.S. technically, I think (1) is more complete than (2), but for the
*vast* majority of cases (2) will do and its less "magical" to most
people. ;)

From: Marisa Antonaya  <marisa_antonaya@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:14pm
Subject: Selecting multiple items for pasting children?

Hello,

I'm trying to do something on Shadow that doesn't seem to be discussed 
in the manual. Basically, I'd like to select all level 1 items in a 
list so that I can paste the same child item into all of them. My list 
is a list of students and their assignments. I have the name of each 
student as top-level, and the children are the assignment names. I then 
use tags to mark as complete, incomplete, or late. Since I have 73 
students enrolled in that course and the assignments are the same for 
everyone, I'd like to be able to create a child item that I can then 
insert/paste under all the student names, and then I'd just deal with 
the tags. Right now, I just create it once, copy it, and go down the 
list using the "paste as child" command. It's a bit slow, however. Is 
what I want to do possible? The list is set on custom, with just the 
tag column and a link column showing.

Thanks,
Marisa

From: Geraldine  <suleika@b...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Filter Help

A quick filter from a tag would work wonderfully for me very often.

Geraldine
----- Original Message -----
From: "PocketGoddess" <jen@p...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Filter Help


> Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>
> > I'm half tempted to add a button to the *Tag* Manager.. "Make
> >filter from tag". This would just spuit out a filter called "Filter of
> >Fred" (say), and its only rule would be "Select all that have tag
> >Fred". Then you could tailor the filter to your needs.
> >
> That would be GREAT!!! Sure would make things a lot easier-- I'm trying
> once again to use Shadow as a to do replacement and more fully implement
> GTD. Put that in, along with a couple of other things like "child
> inherits parent to do link category" and automatic linking of "next
> actions" and I'd be really happy!
>
> --
>
> Jen
>
> http://www.pocketgoddess.com
> 98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

From: listor@t...
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:16pm
Subject: using SP to carry article to read

Hi,




 At work, I often recieve mail with links and the word 
"read this". I never have the time there and then, but 
would like to copy the articles to my Palm. The problem 
is the 4096 character limit in Memopad.




 I've not tried Shadowplan yet, but I understood that to 
the items in a list, there is a field for notes. What's 
the maximum length for this field?




 Best regards,




  Anders Thoresson

From: Neal Cordle  <nhcordle@e...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:21pm
Subject: Re: PURGE

From the menu: Edit -> Delete all checked.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morgan Young 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:26 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] PURGE


  Alright, how do you purge completed items?
  just like in datebk, or in Todo program?
  am i really missing something?

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: pfieldho_99 pfieldho_99@y...  <pfieldho_99@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:28pm
Subject: Shadow Plan 2.7.13

Jeff,
Been using Shadow Plan 2.7.13a. 
Preference tabs are good and it didn't take me long to see that there 
was more 
to be had. 
I like the new drag and drop operation. Seems relatively intuitive 
for newbies (at least as much as the previous way of d&d).
ONE THOUGHT: I like the option to have a tap on note icon open note 
editor about 50% of the time. How about 1 tap opens the note in the 
list and two taps opens the editor? Having that flexibility would 
make me 100% happy!!

Paul

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, tes08558 <sicora@e...> wrote:

> Come on guys - with Font Bucket you can download some really great
> fonts right from your own system - it you used this feature you
> wouldn't think of going back to low res!

	To be clear, I'd never go back to a low res device, but I might
use low res mode in Shadow. But now you're getting me philosophical again
;)

	The rest should be deleted, but I wrote it, and why not say it? It
is more personal philosophy than anything else, and by someone who happens
to have been up all night.. so feel free to disregard it. Its probably
half messed up anyway :)

	There has been a long trend towards people misusing resolution;
ie: A lot of people think resolution gets you more space.. it doesn't. It
merely provides clarity for the same space, or lets you get smaller for
more crammage and less clarity. In general.. most people will buy a higher
resolutino monitor, and up the resolution, and ghet tinier fonts. What
they shoudl do is get higher resolution, and then upthe size of everything
so that ebverythign looks the same.. and yet is easier to read. Or buy
larger monitors and get both more space, and higher resolution.. yum!
Remember the days when 20" monitors were $2000CDN? Now they're $600CDN for
19" gorgeous ones. Yum!

	I know a lot of people with 20" monitors, at super high
resolution. What they do is use *tiny* fonts, and I notice (and make fun
of them a lot) they lean forward a lot to see their text. Well and good
they can get 3 terminals open on one window.. but at the cost of their
eyes.

	I am the opposite. I do not keep a busy desktop with piles of
windows featuring lots of decorations. I keep the "fluff" minimal, and I
use large fonts that you can read from 10 feet away. All at super high
resolution.. so the curves of my "esses" are nice and sharp and smooth...

	Very easy on the eyes, and very readable.

	I'm a hardcore developer though, so I work differently than most.
Most developers are still amateurs.. they want to cram all the code
onscreen they can. They've not realized the bueaty of whitespace.. if you
need to see a lot, you've done it wrong. You wantot see less, and it
should be designed better :)

	On the PDA I've always gone for severe crammage.. the smallest
fonts in Shadow, to maximize information. But I started to change of
late.. if you really need to see so much at once, you've got other
problems.. too much on the go so you need to see it all, or need to see it
too fast. Why not go back to my roots.. large but clear fonts..

	Its about taking it easy and relaxing now. I'm fighting the rush
rush rush of every day life. (Remember, I'm a sometimes insomniac who
works 15 hour days.. so cutting back is important to me and my family now,
before I burn out :)

	In the end I'll likely stick in the middle.. a larger font, in
high res mode.. so that it is both more info on screen than the low res
modes, but not super crammage. I want to keep these eyes :)

		jef

> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, ::.jay.west wrote:
> > 
> > > I just picked up my new Tungsten T and immediately installed
> Shadow and
> > > stitched it to hiRes. Wow! I can finally see what I have been missing!
> > 
> > 	*g* Be sure to set your colour themes all up nice :)
> > 
> > 	After a year or two of high res, I've been thinking about going
> > back to "low res" mode .. tired eyes :)
> > 
> > > Can anyone suggest which pleasing font combinations they have been
> using in
> > > Shadow on their hiRes TT? The default ones are just a bit too tiny.
> > 
> > 	I usually use the "large font"; the built in one.The large bold
> > font sort of stinks, so you might want another.. but I don't use bolding
> > much so I just live with the built in large normal font.. its a little
> > larger than the normal font.. so in high res it gets you another 30%
> more
> > text or so, but without being "too small".
> > 
> > 	I'm boring though :)
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: Another filter question

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, harid <harid@y...> wrote:

> I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that filters are 
> already fairly poweful. I ran into roadblocks with just the 3rd and 
> 4th filter I tried to create in SP. They were:

	You've never tried filtering in another Palm OS application,
then.. at best, most apps let you filter based on this or that checkbox,
and thats it. Shadow is more powerful at filtering than most desktop
applications, and the filters really are quite powerful in some arenas..
you can get quite creative. Though for some queries, it just doesn't work
out. Remember, our filters must work on 16MHz PDAs ;) Of course, there is
room for improvement, but we have priorities.. the filters are more
powerful than most people need now, and the desktop is not :)

> As for a solution, I was thinking if we allow "(", ")", "OR" 
> and "AND" as the various ops, then one should be able to create any 
> boolean logic from simple to complex(incl. my filters!). This should 
> still keep the UI simple and probably more in sync with how people 

	The UI for parenthesis is extremely complicated to both design and
to use. Remember, last week, count how many people were confused between
the different between != amd <>.. imagine getting into:

( ( sarte date >= last week ) AND ( target <= next week ) ) OR
checked == false

	.. not to mention the runtime effect if we get really out of hand.
ie: Right now, I can parse a filter withotu using a full fledged grammar.
But allowing for paranthesis implies a grammar, stack, and all sorts of
constructs.. quite a hit on complexity and performance. I've explicitly
designed to dodge needing a stack so far ;)

> think of boolean expressions. I would really appreciate if you would 
> seriously consider this. I already have stopped using multiple dates 

	It is not a matter of consideration -- its been desired since day
one. Its a matter of priorities and timing.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:45pm
Subject: Re: 2.17 D&D

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, mushp2000 <mush@c...> wrote:

> I do far less "unintended" D&D with the current method and prefer it.

	Great! Thanks for the feedback,

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:46pm
Subject: Re: Filter idea

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, tsuchy <tsuchy@y...> wrote:

> Don't know if it's feasible or not, but it would be awesome if one
> could AND/OR one or more already existing filters into another filter.

	Yeah, I've been wanting to add a filter rule type of "refer to
other filter", so that you could sort of stack them together. This can
become complex though (since filter A could refer to filter B and C, and
those could refer to filter D, and filter D coudl refer to A.. oh the
headaches ;)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadowplan 2.7.12 Beta

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, scarlet_vx <scarlet_vx@y...> wrote:

> Tab control:  Works fine.  Took some getting used to.
> Drag and drop:  Works very nicely.  I prefer this version.

	Great!

> Auto import ToDos: a wonderful feature!  I use Shadow as my ToDo
> action list, but I use DayNotez to journal meeting notes and send
> action items to ToDo on the fly.  The auto import takes all the extra
> work of getting these items from the ToDo database into Shadow.  I
> usually move such items from "IN" to another list.  This severs the
> link.  I have the options set to delete item deletes links, so I don't
> have to go back to delete the items from the ToDo database, which I
> really like.  (This works great for me, but I wonder if some people
> would want to be able to move items from list to list while retaining
> the same ToDo link.)

	"Cut" and then "Send To" or change lists and "Move" or "Paste".

	No problem :)

> It would probably be useful if ToDos with [[[ ]]] designations can go 
> to their specific lists and not to the list set on auto import.  And 
> yes, an option not to import completed ToDos would be nice.

	I think an option to not import "[[[ ]]]" items would do the
trick, or perhaps not import those that have that for a different list.
Thusly, activating the pref would let you use [[]]]] to get automated
imports, but only to the list mentioned. Thats a pretty cool idea.

> I was brave and set two lists to autoimport new ToDos.  It worked 
> fine but I can't imagine why one would really want to import the same 
> todo on to multiple lists.  If you delete the item from one list the 
> item stays on the other with a broken link.

	Since it is a list specific operation, it should be a list pref.
There is probably someone out there with good reasons for multiple auto
imports.. at minimum, I thgouht someone might use it for a Backup list in
addition to their inbox list. So why not? If I limit it to one list, it
coudl limit someone in the future, so I didn't :)

> I also experimented with importing datebook items.  Here I DON'T want
> to delete the calendar entry if I delete in Shadow, so if you develop
> a way to selectively turn off 'delete item deletes links' that would
> be useful.  I believe I can sever the link manually before deleting,
> but for now I probably will not use datebook links.

	We'll have to see how it evolves. We're inventing, so its hard to
guess ahead :)

> Sort undated to bottom:  This isn't a feature I would normally use.  
> I turned it on in one list and added some target dates.  It didn't
> seem to have an effect.  Perhaps I don't understand how that option is
> supposed to work.

	You have to do a sort ;)

> This opened up a lot of useful experimenting on my part.  Thanks, 
> Jeff.

	Thanks for the feedback, and for enjoying it :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:53pm
Subject: Re: Filter idea

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, tsuchy <tsuchy@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Don't know if it's feasible or not, but it would be awesome if one
> > could AND/OR one or more already existing filters into another filter.
> 
> 	Yeah, I've been wanting to add a filter rule type of "refer to
> other filter", so that you could sort of stack them together. This can
> become complex though (since filter A could refer to filter B and C, and
> those could refer to filter D, and filter D coudl refer to A.. oh the
> headaches ;)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

Maybe just allow one level of inheritance? so that filter A could only
refer to filter B if filter B does not refer to any other filters?
This would allow users to create small filters and then just use all
the relevant ones in monster filters. Or you could check to make sure
there's no recursions, which would allow complex chaining, but without
the headache you mentioned above.

-Tom

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:53pm
Subject: Re: Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, karjar358 <karjar@s...> wrote:

> I am just rebuilding my Tungsten. I have to admit that I moved away 
> from Shadow to Bonsai because I NEEDED a desktop to be able to share 
> project outlines with team members. Now that I have reloaded the 
> beta of Shadow, I am not sure if there is something wrong or is the 
> design such that the Tungsten Nav Pad does nothing. No page up or 
> down or line scrolling in Outline list or within an outline. I must 
> admit that one very nice surprise with Bonsai was its adaptation to 
> the tungsten nav pad. scroll up/down, expand or collapse using 
> left/right, and go to details by pressing select. It is a really 
> nice stylus free use of the Tungsten.

	The next update will have 5-way control finely tuned (similar to
how we have the Clie rocker work now). (This is, after all, just a beta,
and it is by no means all of what Shadow 2.8 is.. I just needed feedback
on the new drag and drop and whatnot) The 5-way however definitely works
as page up and down just lie a normal page up/down does.. in the list
view, the file selection view, and other views (the tab control).

> should the navpad not at least scroll up and down through the list? 

	It does, unless you've got some "hack" that breaks it.

> and 2) Any thought of building navigation in like I mentioned above. 

	Yep, of course. We defined a very slick navigation system for the
Clies awhile back, so I just need to tie it into the 5-way.

> Still a fantastic product though Jeff. I really miss the palm app 
> while I was using Bonsai (other than that Nav feature in it) but I 
> need a desktop with clean flexible printing.

	What sort of print options do you need?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Another filter question

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:

> Jeff, I was playing around with this mathematically, and I've come to
> the conclusion that I need you to implement one of two things to make
> these expressions general.
> 
> I tried to build a filter out of two that I have by "OR"ing them
> together.  So I'd get "overdue" and "next week's important" lists in
> one filter...
> 
> But to put it in the "AND of ORs" form, I only know one way to convert
> from OR of ANDs.  That would be double negation (forming the
> contrapositive).  But to do this I need to have a switch that negates
> the entire filter and one to negate a group as a whole.

	You can negate the entire filter now; I have not yet implemented
negation of groups.

> Obviously, that would be a technical way to do it... but the "easy"
> way (for *me* anyway) is for you to implement the "OR"ing of two
> existing filters into a new (super?) filter.  (which would allow me to
>  leave the expression in an OR of ANDs form.)

	I've been thinking of this for awhile; the trick is dealing with
filter A depending on filter B depending on filter C (lots of memory used,
and very slow filtering), and the worst.. when filter C depends on A
again. Cyclic filtering would be hell. (Of course, I could just say "dont'
do it, your problem when it crashes" ;)

> (1) a "reversed" check box that applies to the filter as a whole.
> and one that negates a group (thus 3, one for each group possible).

	First part is done; the second part can be done withotu too too
much trouble.

> (2) a way to build "super" filters by ORing "normal" filters together.

	Thoughts on the above?

> P.S. technically, I think (1) is more complete than (2), but for the
> *vast* majority of cases (2) will do and its less "magical" to most
> people. ;)

	*g*

	I know, we need a math class now ;)

	Relaly, I guess, a Filter Tutorial is needed. You know your
application is too complex when..

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:58pm
Subject: Re: Selecting multiple items for pasting children?

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Marisa Antonaya wrote:

> I'm trying to do something on Shadow that doesn't seem to be discussed
> in the manual. Basically, I'd like to select all level 1 items in a
> list so that I can paste the same child item into all of them. My list
> is a list of students and their assignments. I have the name of each
> student as top-level, and the children are the assignment names. I
> then use tags to mark as complete, incomplete, or late. Since I have
> 73 students enrolled in that course and the assignments are the same
> for everyone, I'd like to be able to create a child item that I can
> then insert/paste under all the student names, and then I'd just deal
> with the tags. Right now, I just create it once, copy it, and go down
> the list using the "paste as child" command. It's a bit slow, however.
> Is what I want to do possible? The list is set on custom, with just
> the tag column and a link column showing.

	There is no group paste operation.. it would be very hard to
figure out who to paste to. (ie: All top level items, what about pasting
to their children? etc.. we always have to make operations "generalized").

	I'm trying to think.. is there another way to design this
list... hmm. A tough one.

	Anyone else have any ideas? (I may be the author, but I'm
definitely not the smartest user :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:00pm
Subject: Re: using SP to carry article to read

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 listor@t... wrote:

>  At work, I often recieve mail with links and the word 
> "read this". I never have the time there and then, but 
> would like to copy the articles to my Palm. The problem 
> is the 4096 character limit in Memopad.
> 
>  I've not tried Shadowplan yet, but I understood that to 
> the items in a list, there is a field for notes. What's 
> the maximum length for this field?

	Shadow also has a 4k limit for attached notes; this is done for
efficieny and speed on older units, and for compatability with older
units. I may relax the limits later, but for now.. Shadow has a 4k limit
in the notes. Sorry :(

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:02pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.13

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, pfieldho_99 <pfieldho_99@y...> wrote:

> Been using Shadow Plan 2.7.13a.  Preference tabs are good and it
> didn't take me long to see that there was more to be had.  I like the
> new drag and drop operation. Seems relatively intuitive for newbies
> (at least as much as the previous way of d&d).

	Great :)

> ONE THOUGHT: I like the option to have a tap on note icon open note 
> editor about 50% of the time. How about 1 tap opens the note in the 
> list and two taps opens the editor? Having that flexibility would 
> make me 100% happy!!

	Hmm.. perhaps use one tap to expand/collapse on screen, and use /A
to summon the note editor? (/a.. 2 stroke shortcut?)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:16pm
Subject: RE: Re: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?

Interesting Jeff, as I have some similar insomniac issues and philosophical
thoughts.  I am slowing getting through the GTD book, but have read lots
from their website and postings from their Yahoo Group.  In reading the book
I have recently changed my ways on my pda.  GTD suggests one big daily
appointment/calendar view, not the Agendus type of split screen with
appointments and to do items.  Thus, i have now eliminated Agendus and gone
back to Datebk5, since there i can have the appointment calendar be my
entire screen, plus i can enlarge the font of various items and color it to
stand out more too (font and background of entry).  Now i have one view of
all that i MUST finish that day.  When i am done or have free time, now i
turn to Shadow for my to do list (or next action item as they call it).
Would still like to have Shadow send next action item to my to do list in
Datebk so the list looks smaller, or better yet, to a specified list within
Shadow itself!  Now with the bigger font of my entries things just seem less
busy and easier to know what is the most important on the list each day.
Thanks for your thoughts, as i always enjoy!
Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 8:40 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?


On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, tes08558 <sicora@e...> wrote:

> Come on guys - with Font Bucket you can download some really great
> fonts right from your own system - it you used this feature you
> wouldn't think of going back to low res!

      To be clear, I'd never go back to a low res device, but I might
use low res mode in Shadow. But now you're getting me philosophical again
;)

      The rest should be deleted, but I wrote it, and why not say it? It
is more personal philosophy than anything else, and by someone who happens
to have been up all night.. so feel free to disregard it. Its probably
half messed up anyway :)

      There has been a long trend towards people misusing resolution;
ie: A lot of people think resolution gets you more space.. it doesn't. It
merely provides clarity for the same space, or lets you get smaller for
more crammage and less clarity. In general.. most people will buy a higher
resolutino monitor, and up the resolution, and ghet tinier fonts. What
they shoudl do is get higher resolution, and then upthe size of everything
so that ebverythign looks the same.. and yet is easier to read. Or buy
larger monitors and get both more space, and higher resolution.. yum!
Remember the days when 20" monitors were $2000CDN? Now they're $600CDN for
19" gorgeous ones. Yum!

      I know a lot of people with 20" monitors, at super high
resolution. What they do is use *tiny* fonts, and I notice (and make fun
of them a lot) they lean forward a lot to see their text. Well and good
they can get 3 terminals open on one window.. but at the cost of their
eyes.

      I am the opposite. I do not keep a busy desktop with piles of
windows featuring lots of decorations. I keep the "fluff" minimal, and I
use large fonts that you can read from 10 feet away. All at super high
resolution.. so the curves of my "esses" are nice and sharp and smooth...

      Very easy on the eyes, and very readable.

      I'm a hardcore developer though, so I work differently than most.
Most developers are still amateurs.. they want to cram all the code
onscreen they can. They've not realized the bueaty of whitespace.. if you
need to see a lot, you've done it wrong. You wantot see less, and it
should be designed better :)

      On the PDA I've always gone for severe crammage.. the smallest
fonts in Shadow, to maximize information. But I started to change of
late.. if you really need to see so much at once, you've got other
problems.. too much on the go so you need to see it all, or need to see it
too fast. Why not go back to my roots.. large but clear fonts..

      Its about taking it easy and relaxing now. I'm fighting the rush
rush rush of every day life. (Remember, I'm a sometimes insomniac who
works 15 hour days.. so cutting back is important to me and my family now,
before I burn out :)

      In the end I'll likely stick in the middle.. a larger font, in
high res mode.. so that it is both more info on screen than the low res
modes, but not super crammage. I want to keep these eyes :)

            jef

> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, ::.jay.west wrote:
> > 
> > > I just picked up my new Tungsten T and immediately installed
> Shadow and
> > > stitched it to hiRes. Wow! I can finally see what I have been missing!
> > 
> >       *g* Be sure to set your colour themes all up nice :)
> > 
> >       After a year or two of high res, I've been thinking about going
> > back to "low res" mode .. tired eyes :)
> > 
> > > Can anyone suggest which pleasing font combinations they have been
> using in
> > > Shadow on their hiRes TT? The default ones are just a bit too tiny.
> > 
> >       I usually use the "large font"; the built in one.The large bold
> > font sort of stinks, so you might want another.. but I don't use bolding
> > much so I just live with the built in large normal font.. its a little
> > larger than the normal font.. so in high res it gets you another 30%
> more
> > text or so, but without being "too small".
> > 
> >       I'm boring though :)
> > 
> >             jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:23pm
Subject: RE: Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12

Excellent on the Tungsten 5-way update!  Thanks.
Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 8:54 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12



      The next update will have 5-way control finely tuned (similar to
how we have the Clie rocker work now). (This is, after all, just a beta,
and it is by no means all of what Shadow 2.8 is.. I just needed feedback
on the new drag and drop and whatnot) The 5-way however definitely works
as page up and down just lie a normal page up/down does.. in the list
view, the file selection view, and other views (the tab control).


      Yep, of course. We defined a very slick navigation system for the
Clies awhile back, so I just need to tie it into the 5-way.


            jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jan Bergquist  <jb.bergquist@t...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:10pm
Subject: Desktop 1.2.5 latest?

I have desktop 1.2.5, but I wonder if this is the latest?

There are still some severe problems with this:

The printout still cannot handle national characters (like åäö) properly,
they are replaced by a 2 character combo.
(And the printed version with boxes doesn't show the structure, but instead
shows two dates, which are not both useful to show.)

The display show all items equal, regardless if they are checked or not.
This tricks me (at the first glance) to believe that all items (also
checked) are remaining. It also fools non-Shadow users...


Mainly these two items _still_ makes desktop not useful for me. It can't be
used for presentation purposes, which in my mind should be one of the big
benefits of the desktop version, compared to the HH part.

Or have I missed something?

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:29pm
Subject: Re: Desktop 1.2.5 latest?

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Jan Bergquist wrote:

> I have desktop 1.2.5, but I wonder if this is the latest?

	Yep.

> The printout still cannot handle national characters (like åäö) properly,
> they are replaced by a 2 character combo.

	Correct. I shall be looking into this sort of thing over the next
few weeks. Please bug me.

> The display show all items equal, regardless if they are checked or not.
> This tricks me (at the first glance) to believe that all items (also
> checked) are remaining. It also fools non-Shadow users...

	Lots to be done, is true.

> Mainly these two items _still_ makes desktop not useful for me. It can't be
> used for presentation purposes, which in my mind should be one of the big
> benefits of the desktop version, compared to the HH part.

	Bug me for awhile, and hang out in shadow-test.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: Font suggestions for HiRes TT ?

Fully agree Jeff. That's why I'm waiting for a clamshell (a 
la Psion) Palm OS5/6 device with 640x480 device. Gets me 
twice the space of the current screen. How would SP look on 
a screen like that? Perfect, in my imagination.

- Robert

From: karjar358 karjar@s...  <karjar@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:59pm
Subject: Re: Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12

Hmmm...might it be that I only put in about 4 or 5 items to see how 
things may have changed? I certainly cannot get a scroll by line 
hilight to move down the list using up/down. Since it is OS5 no 
hacks, but do have Mcphling and Jot 2.01 but I don't think they 
should affect. I installed it an tried on pretty much a clean system 
after the hard reset.? 
Great to hear about the upcoming functionality tied to Nav pad. 
As for printing..I wanted to be able to show the item, start date, 
end date, Percent completion, and associated notes at the end of the 
outline (referenced back to item). If I would have been using Shadow, 
I would also have wanted to show tags (Name assigned to), but the 
other guys don't have all the nice functionality of Shadow, so win 
some lose some?!
jeff

> > should the navpad not at least scroll up and down through the 
list? 
> > 	It does, unless you've got some "hack" that breaks it.
> > > and 2) Any thought of building navigation in like I mentioned 
above. 
> 
> 	Yep, of course. We defined a very slick navigation system for 
the
> Clies awhile back, so I just need to tie it into the 5-way.
> 
> > Still a fantastic product though Jeff. I really miss the palm app 
> > while I was using Bonsai (other than that Nav feature in it) but 
I 
> > need a desktop with clean flexible printing.
> 
> 	What sort of print options do you need?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12

On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, karjar358 <karjar@s...> wrote:

> Hmmm...might it be that I only put in about 4 or 5 items to see how
> things may have changed? I certainly cannot get a scroll by line
> hilight to move down the list using up/down. Since it is OS5 no hacks,
> but do have Mcphling and Jot 2.01 but I don't think they should
> affect. I installed it an tried on pretty much a clean system after
> the hard reset.?

	Correct.. as I said, it functions as a page up/down normally
does.. a page at a time. It does not currently have the line up/down
option in it. I was taking issue with you saying it didn't work as a page
up/down :)

	The trick is how best to do 5-way.

	ie: You need to be able to page up and down, and line up and
down.. thus you need to be able to select and unselect. Therefore, either
left/right must be for selection, or the center button must be for
seleciton toggling.

	On the Clie, you can push the jog dial to select, and push back to
deselect. Pushign jog while already selected opens details. Pushing back
will deselect, or if already deselected, will exit the list to the file
selection screen. IF in Details, Backis cancel, and jog push is OK. Works
great.

	So.. for the 5-way..

	I'm thinking.. left right to do most of the work.. but still
debating.

	ie: Up/down will page up/down if no selection, or line up/down if
selection. Shoudl right/left expand/collapse? OKay, and if they do, what
do they do if an item is not a parent (nothign to expand) or not a child
(nothing to collapse?) If right/left is doing exp/coll, it cannot also do
Detail summoning.

	The 5-way button already does OK. There is no 5-way Cancel
functionality defined by the OS. Trouble, but maybe we can leave that.

	OKay...

	So.. maybe left/right does expand and collapse. If cannto expand
or collapse.. do nothing?

	5-way center button opens details for an item, or hits OK for an
item if already in details.

	Up/down does page or line up/down, depending on select state.

	Not bad, but not quite as perfecvt as the Clie setup.

	If you have ideas, let me know :)

> Great to hear about the upcoming functionality tied to Nav pad. 
> As for printing..I wanted to be able to show the item, start date, 
> end date, Percent completion, and associated notes at the end of the 
> outline (referenced back to item). If I would have been using Shadow, 
> I would also have wanted to show tags (Name assigned to), but the 
> other guys don't have all the nice functionality of Shadow, so win 
> some lose some?!

	What do you mean by showing details at the end? You mean list all
the items, with some index number, and then a list of index numbers with
details at the end? That sounds really really horrible.. you'd never want
to look up and down three multiple pages to see the details of one
item. Sounds nasty.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"

From: karjar358 karjar@s...  <karjar@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:17pm
Subject: Re: Return to Shadow-Beta 2.7.12

All kinds of fun eh?
Just my thoughts, without even knowing what is possible. Up/Down 
pages with no selection. centre Selector (CS) hilights selects first 
item when no item is selected, Up/down then scrolls. press CS while 
item hilited opens details. in details..left opens notes, right opens 
link, CS = ok. in note, selector = OK, left = cancel, right = delete. 
in link CS = done, left = add, right =delete (goto is tap). Back to 
list, when item is selected, left collapses, right expands. 
> 	So.. maybe left/right does expand and collapse. If cannto 
expand
> or collapse.. do nothing?
> 
> 	5-way center button opens details for an item, or hits OK for 
an
> item if already in details.
> 
> 	Up/down does page or line up/down, depending on select state.
> 
> 	Not bad, but not quite as perfecvt as the Clie setup.
> 
> 	If you have ideas, let me know :)
> 
> > Great to hear about the upcoming functionality tied to Nav pad. 
> > As for printing..I wanted to be able to show the item, start 
date, 
> > end date, Percent completion, and associated notes at the end of 
the 
> > outline (referenced back to item). If I would have been using 
Shadow, 
> > I would also have wanted to show tags (Name assigned to), but the 
> > other guys don't have all the nice functionality of Shadow, so 
win 
> > some lose some?!
> 
> 	What do you mean by showing details at the end? You mean list 
all
> the items, with some index number, and then a list of index numbers 
with
> details at the end? That sounds really really horrible.. you'd 
never want
> to look up and down three multiple pages to see the details of one
> item. Sounds nasty.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

From: jaycotton101 jaycotton101@y...  <jaycotton101@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:27pm
Subject: os x alpha expired

I downloaded the os X desktop alpha from the test forum, and when i tr