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9701

From: jcharmella jcharmella@p...  <jcharmella@p...>
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:29pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 2.7.2

 
I do all of my editing in the mini-editor. All I have to do is bring 
it back up and edit a letter and the bullet goes away. It is probably 
not a priority, but you might consider it for the next release. 
Thanks for the quick response.




--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, jcharmella <jcharmella@p...> wrote:
> 
> > I have a problem in that when I am in the 4th level of an 
outline, I 
> > pick out a bullet for that level and if I go back and edit that 
entry 
> > again, the bullet goes away. I can just repick it, but shouldn't 
it 
> > stay?
> 
> 	It should stay.
> 
> 	When exactly is it going away? Using either mini editor or 
full
> screen editor will not remove the bullet.
> 
> 	Currently, editting on the desktop may trip up the auto 
bullets
> though.
> 
> > Also, would it be possible to have a default for all levels past 
the 
> > third? Say always a bullet, instead of nothing. 
> 
> 	I've got a few thoughts on this, but its not a priority until 
a
> few other things get done.
> 
> > Thanks!!!
> 
> 	No problem :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
9702

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 2.7.2

 
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, jcharmella <jcharmella@p...> wrote:

> I do all of my editing in the mini-editor. All I have to do is bring 
> it back up and edit a letter and the bullet goes away. It is probably 
> not a priority, but you might consider it for the next release. 
> Thanks for the quick response.

	How are you bringing it up? (theres multiple ways to do
everything, so I like to know specifics.. it often is a factor :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9703

From: David Bengtson  <dbengtson@p...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:08am
Subject: Filtering/Tags on the Desktop

 
Jeff:

Any time estimates for tags and sorting on the desktop? 


Dave
9704

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:03am
Subject: Re: Filtering/Tags on the Desktop

 
On Tuesday 18 February 2003 04:08, David Bengtson wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> Any time estimates for tags and sorting on the desktop?

Yes, tag support on the desktop is also high on my list.

- Robert
9705

From: Kevin_J_F kjfkjf@f...  <kjfkjf@f...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 0:05pm
Subject: Re: Sync problem

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> 	If you move (and thus essentially remove, as far as the 
conduit is
> concerned) the XML files, then yeah.. the conduit will see the ones 
its
> supposed to sync, and download them fresh and make everything well.
> 
> 		jeff

What if the items are linked to the todo database?  Is that supposed
to make everything fresh?  The reason that I ask is because I just
went through a confusing session of problem isolation.  The scenario I
had is as follows:

1) Sync to desktop.
2) Change one single shadow item on desktop.
3) Sync back to Palm without any other intermediate palm changes.
4) Look at Palm and see old data in the entry modified on desktop.
5) spend lots of time looking at logs, raw XML files and scratching my
head.
6) Finally copy the file to a new name and send it to the palm.
7) Look at palm and notice the old data in that one single entry that
does not match the XML.
8) Finally figure out that it is due to the fact that the item was
linked to a todo.  Somehow the todo is overriding the update on the 
desktop.
9) Unlink todo and everything works as I expected (even to the point
of replicating the item that was changed on both ends, slick).

Is this the way that the sync with link (couldn't resist) is supposed
to work?  I would have at least expected it to duplicate the entry
rather than ignore it.

Kevin
9706

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:02pm
Subject: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
so disgusts me :)

	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
$12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
getting an extra cut hurts :/

	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
$22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9707

From: Tom Anderson  <tom@e...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:06pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I would have bought at the higher price, although I must admit the low price was an attraction for buying so quickly. But never charging for upgrades makes me quite willing to pay more at the beginning.

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 2/18/2003 at 3:02 PM Jeff Mitchell wrote:

>We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
>upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
>so disgusts me :)
>
>	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
>across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
>$12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
>keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
>and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
>getting an extra cut hurts :/
>
>	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
>$22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
>
>		jeff
>
>--
>"Have you played Atari today?"
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
9708

From: Chris Harlepp  <charlepp@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I think once you've tried Shadow, especially the recent HH versions and the soon-to-be-improved DT, $ 3.00 is an insignificant amount. Seeing what your competition charges, I think you could even go up $ 5.00 without breaking a sweat. Especially when you consider the no-cost upgrades and support!! Given the time and zeal you've put into making such a great product, I think anywhere from $ 3 - $5 increase is reasonable.
Chris
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 3:02 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Opinion; raising the cost?



        We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
  upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
  so disgusts me :)

        What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
  across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
  $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
  keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
  and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
  getting an extra cut hurts :/

        Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
  $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)

              jeff

  --
  "Have you played Atari today?"


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9709

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sync problem

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Kevin_J_F <kjfkjf@f...> wrote:

> What if the items are linked to the todo database?  Is that supposed
> to make everything fresh?  The reason that I ask is because I just
> went through a confusing session of problem isolation.  The scenario I
> had is as follows:

	ToDo linking is done entirely on the handheld, at list open/close
time. The conduit doesn't (currently anyway) care about links, other than
maintaining them. Linked ToDo and Datebook objects are the source of truth
outside of Shadow handheld.. which is to say, if you change an item in
Shadow handheld, the related ToDo and Datebook items will also change. If
you change a ToDo or Datebook outside of Shadow, Shadow will also change.
However, Shadow Desktop does not take priority.. if you change an item in
Shadow Desktop, and then sync, and that item is also linked to ToDo, then
the ToDo will clobber the changed Shadow Desktop entry.. you'd have to
change it in Palm Desktop or Outlook if you wish to change it outside of
Shadow on the handheld.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9710

From: Kathy Dunham  <sokrne1@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:23pm
Subject: RE: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Hi, Jeff:

I would have paid the extra!  And still would!!  I haven't had a chance to
really "get into" ShadowPlan, but it's on my list of "Things To Do".  

I know you've been busy with all of the new additions/enhancements, and was
just wondering if the manual has been updated recently (what is the most
recent version of the manual, anyway)?

Thanks.

Take care,
Kathy

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 3:03 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Opinion; raising the cost?



	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing so
disgusts me :)

	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
$12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by and
get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
getting an extra cut hurts :/

	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
$22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
9711

From: Joseph B. Welsh  <jwelsh@W...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:24pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Interesting Question...

Yes, I would have paid $3 more for it. I paid for Datebk4 and that is
considerably higher, but Datebk4-5 and Shadow are the 2 progrmas I use
the most.  I consider them invaluable.

How bout a suggestion though.  Assuming you get more of a cut when you
sell through the CodeJedi Store than though palmgear, couldn't you offer
a discount to buyers at CodeJedi.

Price it 15.95 for resllers, 14.95 at Codejedi

You could put in the read me file with the zip distribution, or better
yet, in the register page.

Just call it a direct to you discount :)

Just a Thought

Joe


On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 15:02, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-- 
--
Joseph B. Welsh				JWelsh@W...
WelshWorks Enterprises
(609) 505-0067
9712

From: Manfred Ell  <manfred.ell@w...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:26pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Go for it Jeff. It's cheap anyway!

On Tuesday Feb 18 at 08:02 PM, Jeff Mitchell  wrote:
----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
> 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

--------------------- Original Message Ends --------------------



-- 
Manfred Ell, Dr. rer. nat., Dipl. Chem., MBA
-CEO-
MANI Indústrias Plásticas, S.A.
Av. 1. de Maio 106 - Alto dos Bonecos
2840-120 Aldeia de Paio Pires
Portugal
phone: +351 212211679
fax: +351 212211541
manfred.ell@m...
http://www.mani.pt
PGP Key: <mailto:manfred.ell@m...?Subject=GET_PGP_KEY>
9713

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Filtering/Tags on the Desktop

 
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, David Bengtson wrote:

> Any time estimates for tags and sorting on the desktop? 

	I don't do estimates, generally. Hopefully not too far away.. I
dont' intend on mucking with the handheld side much once 2.8 goes out soon
:)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9714

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:32pm
Subject: RE: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I think a price increase is fair for the Palm app for sure.  $15.95 does
have a nice ring to it, but I think $19.95 might be better, because
really the Palm app IS Shadow. 

If you raised it to $19.95, I'd raise w/ desktop to $24.95, as really at
this point the desktop isn't far enough along to charge much more for
it. Maybe make it $17.95 to compete with Thought Manager.

Point is, a price hike is fine, but I think it should be greater than 3
bucks...and I think the price between palm and palm+desktop versions
should be smaller.  I think if the Palm were $19.95, and the Palm+dt
were $24.95, you'd get more people buying the $24.95 version.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 2:03 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Opinion; raising the cost?
> 
> 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support.
Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95
instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our
resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand
by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so
little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>
9715

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:41pm
Subject: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
This is not for general distribution; don't mention it outside of
this forum.

	Continue reading only if you intend on replying with your opinions
:) Don't get betas unless you want to help out. Wait for the public
release then :)

	This is a link to a fairly recent alpha of Shadow Plan. Its been
through the ringer for a couple of weeks more or less and is pretty solid.
That said, it could crash on you, though thats the worst that can happen
(ie: if it crashes, push the pinhole reset on the back of your unit, and
you'll be fine. No biggy.)

	I'm making this available as a beta so that I can find out any
compatability problems on the wider variety of units everyone here has,
and I'd *really* like feedback on the new drag and drop and tab systems.
(Everyone has long hated the existing drag and drop system, despite it
being pretty powerful. So this beta has a new drag and drop system that
should be much easier to use, though it is more limited)

	Things new in 2.7.12 since 2.7.0 public release:

	o New tab control for List Prefs and Global Prefs

	The goal here was to make things a little easier to use, and hit
you with less up front when you're new. ie: Shadow is one of the most
configurable apps around (it and DateBk5 of course :), so I wanted to make
a simpler navigation system. Note theres new options in List Prefs, and
that they've been juggled around a touch so newbies don't see everything
on their first new list (unless they hit a tab :) Tab page flipping should
work very nicely on OS4 and later; for OS3.x units, you will see the
window redraw.. this is due to bugs in Palm OS. You can use page up/down
keys to cycle through tabs, too.

	o New drag and drop system

	The goal of this was to make it easier to deal with for those who
never looked at the manual; the existing drag and dorp system essentially
bewildered everyone on first use (I think). It was well complained about
anyway :) The new system is not quite as powerful, but should work much
easier for most people, for most uses, and for first time users.
Essentially, it lets you drag an item onto another item to make it a
child, or between two items to drop it there. If you drop between two
items that are of different indent levels, it'll go to the indent level of
the previous one if I recall right :) This should make life easier for
many people. Just drop it where you want it.. none of this Shadow figuring
it out later stuff :)

	What do you think?

	o New general prefs panels; "preferred apps" are all in one place
now. A few changes to existing panels. No more Next and Prev due to tabs.

	o New auto-import from ToDo and Datebook; this should work well
for you, but we're still fleshing out ideas; do we need options to
suppress auto-import of items with [[[ ]]] in them, and/or items with
obvious Shadow origin stamps in them? Or to suppress auto 9import of items
that are completed? (ie: You make a new item, and then complete it before
Shadow gets to import it)

	o "Sort undated to bottom" is now available in list prefs

	o First cut of Handera virtual grafitti

	You can only get this beta if you replying to me or to this forum
with your opinions on the various changes. Otherwise, wait for the public
release in a little while.

	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2712a.zip

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9716

From: mzehner2000 matt_zehner@p...  <matt_zehner@p...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:35pm
Subject: Re: Filtering/Tags on the Desktop (& Shadow Pricing)

 
>I
> dont' intend on mucking with the handheld side much once 2.8 goes 
out soon
> :)
> 
> 		jeff

Gee, isn't that what you said when you released 2.5? 2.6? etc....

      ;)

And yes, I would have paid more for Shadow.  I also agree with the 
poster who said you could easily charge $19.95 for the HH alone, 
given the maturity/power/indispensibility of the HH. 

I actually think it would be reasonable to charge $29.95 for the 
combo, especially when you compare to Dbk5 @$24.95 for HH only.  You 
could perhaps price the actual combo at $24.95 when bought together, 
and make the DT a $10 (or $9.95) add-on if bought later.  That would 
be a great incentive to buy both up front!

Matt
9717

From: Dennis Pipper  <dennis@p...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
The fact that the cost was $19.95 for the combo was attractive and made me
want to purchase faster as well.  The proposed price may have caused me to
re-think a bit more as I try to keep the purchases around/under $20 for
software for the HH.

But I think it should be said that Free upgrades and support made it very
attractive.  If you hike the price, put more marketing focus on the free
upgrades for life and support feature, I think that is huuuge!

Also, what's up with the .95 deal, why not just round up?  It just drives
me crazy when I see something for 19.95 or 29.95...makes me think I'm
getting free steak knives with my purchase ;-)

Just my 2 cents

Dennis


>
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
>
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead
> of $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our
> resellers keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than
> stand by and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge
> so little, getting an extra cut hurts :/
>
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
9718

From: Kevin C. Coram kcoram@a...  <kcoram@a...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:22pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I would have still gotten it, did it cost $3 more.

When software costs less than $20, I don't feel guilty about
"splurging" on it. Anything over that benchmark I have to think more
about. Shadow is such a great tool, that I'd have gotten it even if it
was over the $20 limit, but only because I *need* a good outliner on
my Palm. If I didn't need what Shadow provides so much, I think $20
would have been my limit.

- KC
9719

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
Okay, just installed 2.7.12.

When hotsyncing my TT crashed. A soft reset and a new 
hotsync fixed that.

The d&d interface works *much* better now. Very easy to use. 
I see you took the insertion line space from the item 
below, works nice. I tried to move an item before the first 
one in the list, and this worked. :) But not always. 
There's no visual indication if you're about the insert 
before the top item, or just cancel the whole operation by 
moving the pen into the title area. I hope this is clear 
somewhow. ;) 

Also, how do I move an item between itself and the next one 
before it? In pictures:

AAAA
   BBBBB
       CCCCC

How do I drag CCCCC in order to get:

AAAA
   BBBBB
CCCCC

Maybe it can only be done by promoting...

The tab system for the prefs. First reaction: low-res! 
Somehow the curved tab lines look yuckie on the TT. Sorry 
for the superficial reaction. ;) The tabs work fine though 
(haven't given them much of a try though). I see the 
next/prev buttons in the global prefs have been replaced by 
small next/prev icons next to the tabs, which is a more 
logical place. Alternatively you could have added more 
tabs.  This layout is more flexible but less clear, as you 
don't see all the tabs in one view.

- Robert
9720

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Filtering/Tags on the Desktop (& Shadow Pricing)

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, mzehner2000 <matt_zehner@p...> wrote:

> >I
> > dont' intend on mucking with the handheld side much once 2.8 goes 
> out soon
> > :)
> 
> Gee, isn't that what you said when you released 2.5? 2.6? etc....
>       ;)

	yeah, I'm a sucker for my own whims :) You'll note that the
changes in 2.7 aren't as huge as they werre in 2.6 and 2.5, and 2.8 is the
same way. Great changes, but not *huge* changes. I'm mostly worrying about
the business side of things and the Mac OSX and Unix desktops right now :)

> And yes, I would have paid more for Shadow.  I also agree with the
> poster who said you could easily charge $19.95 for the HH alone, given
> the maturity/power/indispensibility of the HH.

	I'm also a sucker for good value :) I *hate* paying lots of money
for software, so I'm going to tough it out proving you can make a living
selling it cheap and making people happy :) Call me an altruist idiot :)

> I actually think it would be reasonable to charge $29.95 for the
> combo, especially when you compare to Dbk5 @$24.95 for HH only.  You
> could perhaps price the actual combo at $24.95 when bought together,
> and make the DT a $10 (or $9.95) add-on if bought later.  That would
> be a great incentive to buy both up front!

	I believe DB5 is overpriced, myself. *duck*

	Maybe its because I'm Canadian.. $24.95 is actually $37 to me, and
we have to work for $27 just like you work for $37.. so it seems like a
lot for me :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9721

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
The info text of the Options tab in list prefs is repeating 
the text of the auto tab.

- Robert
9722

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:19pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Robert van der Kamp wrote:

> When hotsyncing my TT crashed. A soft reset and a new 
> hotsync fixed that.

	Thats pretty weird, but not likely related.

> The d&d interface works *much* better now. Very easy to use.  I see
> you took the insertion line space from the item below, works nice. I
> tried to move an item before the first one in the list, and this
> worked. :) But not always.  There's no visual indication if you're
> about the insert before the top item, or just cancel the whole
> operation by moving the pen into the title area. I hope this is clear
> somewhow. ;)

	If you have the list titlebar on, you'll have the line above the
first item in the list. If you have no titlebar, theres no space to put
the insertion line, so you don't get one. I imagine most new folks will
have titlebars on, so probably okay.

	If you lift the pen way outside the list stuff, it'll abort. (Or
should anyway :)

	So your first reaction was "whew, I like this better"? Thats good
:)

> Also, how do I move an item between itself and the next one 
> before it? In pictures:
> 
> AAAA
>    BBBBB
>        CCCCC
> 
> How do I drag CCCCC in order to get:
> 
> AAAA
>    BBBBB
> CCCCC

	If CCC is going to be the bottom of the list, just drag it off the
bottom into the whitespace and you'll be okay. However, if your list is
like this:

A
.	B
C

	.. and you wish to drop between B and C but on the level of C, you
cannot in the current system.

	The rule is..

A
-------
.	B

	Drops at the level of B.

.	A
--------
B

	Drops at the level of A. 

	So when dropping between two different levels, it drops at the
deeper.

	I might change this so the second case drops on the higer level,
while the first case drops on the deeper.. for now, one rule. Nice and
consistent.

	So its a little less flexible, but it should be easier to use.

	I might just add the ability to drag on the same row, but left and
right. *shrug*

> Maybe it can only be done by promoting...

	Yep; just whack the old promote button (assuming you have it
visible).

> The tab system for the prefs. First reaction: low-res!  Somehow the

	Yeah, I'll draw a high res tab image :) Even without it though,
should be fine :)

> curved tab lines look yuckie on the TT. Sorry for the superficial
> reaction. ;) The tabs work fine though (haven't given them much of a
> try though). I see the next/prev buttons in the global prefs have been
> replaced by small next/prev icons next to the tabs, which is a more
> logical place. Alternatively you could have added more tabs.  This

	Theres too many tabs to fit across withotu squishing them. I might
make it (later, 2.9 :) multiple rows of tabs.. for now, one row, with
left/right sliding. I may add some more visual cue that there is more tabs
left or right, beyond the presence of the left/right arrows.

> layout is more flexible but less clear, as you don't see all the tabs
> in one view.

	Did your immediate reaction wonder if there was mroe tabs, but you
knew due to the little arrows? Or did you wander around a bit before
figuring them out?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9723

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Robert van der Kamp wrote:

> The info text of the Options tab in list prefs is repeating 
> the text of the auto tab.

	A careful eye you have ;)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9724

From: Ken Stuart  <kstuart@e...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:02:37 -0500 (EST), Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:

>(ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
>$12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
>keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
>and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
>getting an extra cut hurts :/

I notice that some developers have started to offer a reduced price if you pay
them directly :-), usually by PayPal.

I would say that you can certainly raise the HH price to $14.95 anyway.   The
problem with the Desktop price is that the Desktop doesn't do very much!   I
find that I never use it because I have to open EVERY item again in the HH
anyway, in order to set the various tags and other options.


--
Cheers,

Ken
kstuart@e...
9725

From: tes08558 sicora@e...  <sicora@e...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:23am
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Drag&Drop not working on TT

 
Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but the drag and drop will not
work at all on my Tungsten T ?


--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	This is not for general distribution; don't mention it outside of
> this forum.
> 
> 	Continue reading only if you intend on replying with your opinions
> :) Don't get betas unless you want to help out. Wait for the public
> release then :)
> 
> 	This is a link to a fairly recent alpha of Shadow Plan. Its been
> through the ringer for a couple of weeks more or less and is pretty
solid.
> That said, it could crash on you, though thats the worst that can happen
> (ie: if it crashes, push the pinhole reset on the back of your unit, and
> you'll be fine. No biggy.)
> 
> 	I'm making this available as a beta so that I can find out any
> compatability problems on the wider variety of units everyone here has,
> and I'd *really*



 like feedback on the new drag and drop and tab systems.
> (Everyone has long hated the existing drag and drop system, despite it
> being pretty powerful. So this beta has a new drag and drop system that
> should be much easier to use, though it is more limited)
> 
> 	Things new in 2.7.12 since 2.7.0 public release:
> 
> 	o New tab control for List Prefs and Global Prefs
> 
> 	The goal here was to make things a little easier to use, and hit
> you with less up front when you're new. ie: Shadow is one of the most
> configurable apps around (it and DateBk5 of course :), so I wanted
to make
> a simpler navigation system. Note theres new options in List Prefs, and
> that they've been juggled around a touch so newbies don't see everything
> on their first new list (unless they hit a tab :) Tab page flipping
should
> work very nicely on OS4 and later; for OS3.x units, you will see the
> window redraw.. this is due to bugs in Palm OS. You can use page up/down
> keys to cycle through tabs, too.
> 
> 	o New drag and drop system
> 
> 	The goal of this was to make it easier to deal with for those who
> never looked at the manual; the existing drag and dorp system
essentially
> bewildered everyone on first use (I think). It was well complained about
> anyway :) The new system is not quite as powerful, but should work much
> easier for most people, for most uses, and for first time users.
> Essentially, it lets you drag an item onto another item to make it a
> child, or between two items to drop it there. If you drop between two
> items that are of different indent levels, it'll go to the indent
level of
> the previous one if I recall right :) This should make life easier for
> many people. Just drop it where you want it.. none of this Shadow
figuring
> it out later stuff :)
> 
> 	What do you think?
> 
> 	o New general prefs panels; "preferred apps" are all in one place
> now. A few changes to existing panels. No more Next and Prev due to
tabs.
> 
> 	o New auto-import from ToDo and Datebook; this should work well
> for you, but we're still fleshing out ideas; do we need options to
> suppress auto-import of items with [[[ ]]] in them, and/or items with
> obvious Shadow origin stamps in them? Or to suppress auto 9import of
items
> that are completed? (ie: You make a new item, and then complete it
before
> Shadow gets to import it)
> 
> 	o "Sort undated to bottom" is now available in list prefs
> 
> 	o First cut of Handera virtual grafitti
> 
> 	You can only get this beta if you replying to me or to this forum
> with your opinions on the various changes. Otherwise, wait for the
public
> release in a little while.
> 
> 	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2712a.zip
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
9726

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:46pm
Subject: RE: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
keeping each individual item under $20 is a good idea for consumer mindset.
both together under $25 or $30 (in time) is a good idea too.  but make sure
to tell people the upgrades and support are always free, unlike other
products on the market - emphasize this as many constantly pay for certain
product upgrades and hate it (i honestly don't mind if the improvement is
significant, but many do).  all about the consumer mindset!!!
Kevin
 
 
Kevin S. Giberson
Law Offices of Kevin S. Giberson
262 East Lake Avenue
Watsonville, CA  95076
Tel:  831/722-4500
Tel:  831/419-7551
Fax:  831/722-4535
email:  kevin@g...
(Santa Cruz, Santa Clara, and Monterey Counties)

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:03 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Opinion; raising the cost?



      We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
so disgusts me :)

      What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
$12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
getting an extra cut hurts :/

      Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
$22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)

            jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"



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9727

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:20am
Subject: Enhancement request

 
Would like a new item type called bullet.  Would be the same as a note,
but with a bullet type icon at the front.  Perhaps the bullet style
could be chosen within global theme preferences, perhaps it's just a
simple big dot.  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9728

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:37am
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Drag&Drop not working on TT

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tes08558 <sicora@e...> wrote:

> Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but the drag and drop will not
> work at all on my Tungsten T ?

	Do you have Jot enabled?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9729

From: tes08558 sicora@e...  <sicora@e...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:50am
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Drag&Drop not working on TT

 
That did it - sorry to have troubled you - I tried disabling Jot
before I wrote to you, however the trick was to do a soft reset after
disabling it.  Anyway Jot was the culprit.   Thanks 

PS - The Tabs in the preferences make things much easier to navigate -
great enhancement.

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tes08558 <sicora@e...> wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but the drag and drop will not
> > work at all on my Tungsten T ?
> 
> 	Do you have Jot enabled?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
9730

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:59am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support.
Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95
instead of
<snip>

Jeff,

To be perfectly honest, when I first saw your price .... it was "Uh,
oh, Bozo!".  Quite frankly the price was too low!  I felt sure you
would not support it properly.  After all, "you get what you pay for,
most times less".

Obviously, this was NOT the case and all I had to do was try it.  The
program speaks for itself (just like DateBk5).  I just *knew* that you
knew what you were doing, and having been a programmer for quite some
time now, that *is* saying something.

So to cut to the chase, Yes, raising the price might even *help* sell
the program!

Once I had tried it (and its competition), $30 was not too much to
ask, especially with free upgrades.  I might be an exception since I
was specifically looking for a project tool, not just a list maker. 

As for the desktop, well ... I got what I paid for... No slight
intended there, but it is about worth its current price.  Anything
over $15-$20 and I would have felt abused.  (Ok, maybe not abused, but
I bought the bundle...)

Now, if ... No, *when* ... the DT gets anywhere near the handheld in
function... $50 easy.   Good straight-forward functional programs on
the desktop are hard to come by.  But there are two things you *gotta*
have on the DT, inter-application cut & paste (preferrably D&D), and
WYSIWYG printing.

Make the DT multi-user and you're into the *BIG* money then... :)

You asked...

Ken
9731

From: Rita  <rblanzan@i...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:00am
Subject: RE: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
>
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
>
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
>

I start to seriously question whether I need to buy software for my HH if
the price is more than $20.  For software that costs more than $20, the
evaluation process becomes more thorough and other factors such as exchange
rates and credit card fees also come into the equation.

The rates that you're proposing are very reasonable especially with the
amount of support that is given with the software.

Rita
9732

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:36am
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Drag&Drop not working on TT

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tes08558 <sicora@e...> wrote:

> That did it - sorry to have troubled you - I tried disabling Jot
> before I wrote to you, however the trick was to do a soft reset after
> disabling it.  Anyway Jot was the culprit.   Thanks 

	yeah, lots of oddities with the new Jot on OS5; I think they've
got a fix coming out.

> PS - The Tabs in the preferences make things much easier to navigate -
> great enhancement.

	Great, glad to hear :) Trying to make this easier to use after all
this time ;)

		jeff

> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tes08558 <sicora@e...> wrote:
> > 
> > > Perhaps I am doing something wrong, but the drag and drop will not
> > > work at all on my Tungsten T ?
> > 
> > 	Do you have Jot enabled?
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9733

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:39am
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:

> To be perfectly honest, when I first saw your price .... it was "Uh,
> oh, Bozo!".  Quite frankly the price was too low!  I felt sure you
> would not support it properly.  After all, "you get what you pay for,
> most times less".

	*g*

> Once I had tried it (and its competition), $30 was not too much to
> ask, especially with free upgrades.  I might be an exception since I
> was specifically looking for a project tool, not just a list maker. 
> 
> As for the desktop, well ... I got what I paid for... No slight
> intended there, but it is about worth its current price.  Anything
> over $15-$20 and I would have felt abused.  (Ok, maybe not abused, but
> I bought the bundle...)

	But both for a total of $22.95 is what I'm talking here :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9734

From: rbenen rbtanner@c...  <rbtanner@c...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:57am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I am slightly chagrined to admit that I have only played with 
Shadow's capabilities so far--you know, the "I'm too busy to get 
organized" syndrome? I looked at Shadow Plan based on discussion 
groups, and I registered it the next day. 
I can't imagine using this program without the desktop! So, one 
question would be how many people buy the handheld version only (and 
why?)Would one bundled program be more cost efficient for you?
Yes, I would have paid more. For important/major upgrades I am 
willing to pay more. You are spending time, effort and talent on a 
product that I suspect will be indispensable to me in a few weeks.
How much would I have paid for a Microsoft program that could do 
this for me on a single machine? I would much rather pay a bit to 
keep a developer--and his/her support--in business!
As a side note, I would much prefer prices that don't end in ".95", 
but then I also think we should eliminate pennies!
Richard



--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for 
support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. 
Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or 
so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 
instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our 
resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than 
stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so 
little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of 
$12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
9735

From: ROYLE Anthony  <anthony.royle@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:06am
Subject: RE: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff,

Considering how useful Shadow is, the extra cost would still make keep it competitive.

Maybe the real money is in 'plug-ins' such as gantt charts, day viewers, database synchronisation conduits etc?

Anthony


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 07:03
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Opinion; raising the cost?
> 
> 
> 
> 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or 
> support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
> 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become 
> $15.95 instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact 
> our resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather 
> than stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we 
> charge so little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>
9736

From: Joseph B. Welsh  <jwelsh@W...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:16am
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 21:57, rbenen  wrote:

> I can't imagine using this program without the desktop! So, one 
> question would be how many people buy the handheld version only (and 
> why?)
I bought the HH version only, for 2 reasons:

1.) The Desktop isn't nearly as powerful as the HH is now, but Jeff is
working on that.
2.) I use Linux exclusively so I can't use the Windows version, although
I would like to test the version for Linux/GTK version

> I would much rather pay a bit to 
> keep a developer--and his/her support--in business!

As do I, keep up the great work Jeff!

Joe
-- 
Joseph B. Welsh <jwelsh@W...>
WelshWorks Enterprises Inc
9737

From: gcastell@i...
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I have a confession to make.. since I know that even if you raise the price of Shadow I will eventually buy the desktop I just went and bought it before you raise the price ;) .. btw I am sure you'll sales won't be deteriorated by a price increase.

Gabriel




 --- On Tue 02/18, Jeff Mitchell < support@s... > wrote:
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto: support@s...]
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:39:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

<html><body>


<tt>
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> To be perfectly honest, when I first saw your price .... it was "Uh,<BR>
> oh, Bozo!".  Quite frankly the price was too low!  I felt sure you<BR>
> would not support it properly.  After all, "you get what you pay for,<BR>
> most times less".<BR>
<BR>
      *g*<BR>
<BR>
> Once I had tried it (and its competition), $30 was not too much to<BR>
> ask, especially with free upgrades.  I might be an exception since I<BR>
> was specifically looking for a project tool, not just a list maker. <BR>
> <BR>
> As for the desktop, well ... I got what I paid for... No slight<BR>
> intended there, but it is about worth its current price.  Anything<BR>
> over $15-$20 and I would have felt abused.  (Ok, maybe not abused, but<BR>
> I bought the bundle...)<BR>
<BR>
      But both for a total of $22.95 is what I'm talking here :)<BR>
<BR>
            jeff<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
"Have you played Atari today?"<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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9738

From: ROYLE Anthony  <anthony.royle@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:36am
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Gabriel,

Are you sure you aren't me?

Anthony Royle

(check the 'from' on your last message...)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ROYLE Anthony [mailto:gcastell@i...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 02:24
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a confession to make.. since I know that even if you 
> raise the price of Shadow I will eventually buy the desktop I 
> just went and bought it before you raise the price ;) .. btw 
> I am sure you'll sales won't be deteriorated by a price increase.
> 
> Gabriel
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  --- On Tue 02/18, Jeff Mitchell < support@s... > wrote:
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto: support@s...]
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:39:31 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?
> 
> <html><body>
> 
> 
> <tt>
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > To be perfectly honest, when I first saw your price .... it 
> was "Uh,<BR>
> > oh, Bozo!".  Quite frankly the price was too low!  I felt 
> sure you<BR>
> > would not support it properly.  After all, "you get what 
> you pay for,<BR>
> > most times less".<BR>
> <BR>
>       *g*<BR>
> <BR>
> > Once I had tried it (and its competition), $30 was not too 
> much to<BR>
> > ask, especially with free upgrades.  I might be an 
> exception since I<BR>
> > was specifically looking for a project tool, not just a 
> list maker. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > As for the desktop, well ... I got what I paid for... No slight<BR>
> > intended there, but it is about worth its current price.  
> Anything<BR>
> > over $15-$20 and I would have felt abused.  (Ok, maybe not 
> abused, but<BR>
> > I bought the bundle...)<BR>
> <BR>
>       But both for a total of $22.95 is what I'm talking here :)<BR>
> <BR>
>             jeff<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Have you played Atari today?"<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
> 
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9739

From: Dan T shipwrght@y...  <shipwrght@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:51am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
>  We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
>  What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
>  Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
>   jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

 Jeff I don't think that raising the price a few dollars should hurt. I'd go between $ 16 and $20 for the HH . If I could add only one piece of software to my HH it would  be ShadowPlan .  I find myself using it pretty much every day , for personal and business .
I've loaded it onto several friends PDA's. The ones that really use them registered within a week or two. The others ? They don't use their pda's anyway , if Shadow was free they still would not use it.
   I think it would be interesting to see what features people  really use most of the time. 
What percent  only use the  standard lists and basic features?  What percent  use mostly custom lists , tags , filters etc.  Should SP be available in a basic version for $14.95 and the "tech head" version for $20+ ? From some of the posts in the past  I've gotten the impression that some people were overwhelmed  by the abundance of options and features , the very thing that some of us love.  I would not  mind  sending you the extra $7 to $10  to register as part of this next level , Shadow Plus ,ShadowPro or whatever. You would not have to feel bad about this , as in my mind  this is not charging for an upgrade  but would be a new service  for us. It is in my best interest  for you to succeed and prosper. Your hard work and effort makes my  job easier.  I am more organized and  a bit less stressed by keeping outlines of my projects updated daily with SP. My two main project leads  also use SP and find it  very useful. This helps make me look good ;) 
 Just some random thoughts. 
Dan Thompson
9740

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:56am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
<snip>
> > Once I had tried it (and its competition), $30 was not too much to
> > ask, especially with free upgrades.  I might be an exception
since I
> > was specifically looking for a project tool, not just a list
maker. 
> > 
> > As for the desktop, well ... I got what I paid for... No slight
> > intended there, but it is about worth its current price.  Anything
> > over $15-$20 and I would have felt abused.  (Ok, maybe not
abused, but
> > I bought the bundle...)
> 
> 	But both for a total of $22.95 is what I'm talking here :)
> 
> 		jeff

Maybe I didn't say that right... I was just trying to give you my idea
of a cap on the price for the software the way it is right now.

$22.95 is more than fair ... I'd have paid more than that for the HH
alone!

Ken
9741

From: John Basinger  <imjb@h...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:59am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I use Shadow Plan to manage my projects (to-do's) and DateBk5 to manage my calendar. Without these two tools I simply would not use a Palm based PDA to manage my work. I would certainly be willing to pay more for Shadow Plan and I personally think you should be considering at least $5 increase instead of a $3 increase - $25.00 for both the handheld and desktop software is still a bargin!

In all seriousness - I would hate to see development on either the handheld or desktop decline because they are not generating sufficient revenue!

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 2:02 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Opinion; raising the cost?



        We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
  upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
  so disgusts me :)

        What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
  across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
  $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
  keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
  and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
  getting an extra cut hurts :/

        Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
  $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)

              jeff

  --
  "Have you played Atari today?"


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9742

From: Kevin  <kjfkjf@f...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:23am
Subject: Re: Re: Sync problem

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:17:07 -0500 (EST), Jeff wrote:

>the ToDo will clobber the changed Shadow Desktop entry.. you'd have to
>change it in Palm Desktop or Outlook if you wish to change it outside of
>Shadow on the handheld.
>
>		jeff

Hmm, It's not a big deal to me since I will most likely be staying
away from todo linking for other reasons.  But, if the desktop updates
will always get clobbered when there is a value for "linkToDo ID" then
how about disallowing updates for those records?  By allowing the
records to get updated on the desktop they will always be out of sync
unless the hh records get updated later.

Kevin
-- 
E-mail: kevjay@a...
9743

From: Morgan Young  <morgan@p...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:02am
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
How about going back to a earlier version?  I am not that famillar with SP,
but maybe a couple of versions back and people would not feel so
overwhelmed.  I know that I have definately had a learning curve.  I am
still learning.



>  I've gotten the impression that some people were overwhelmed  by
> the abundance of options and features , the very thing that some
> of us love.  I would not  mind  sending you the extra $7 to $10
> to register as part of this next level , Shadow Plus ,ShadowPro
> or whatever.
9744

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:05am
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> 
> 	This is not for general distribution; don't mention it outside of
> this forum.
> 
<snip>

<For those who care: Kyocera 6035, OS 3.5.3, SP HH 2.7.12>

OK, first impressions (and at the bottom an independent bug report)

(1) The D&D...

I like it better.

I think I'd like it even better if there wasn't quite as much visual
distinction between being ON an entry and being between them.  Maybe
"outlining" the entry instead of highlighting it...

I was thinking of a line above *and* below to show you're ON an entry,
but I'm not sure it would be enough for most people.
(I like subtlety).

.. by the way... There is a minor replot problem with the new D&D.

(a) Open a list that is multiple pages when expanded.
(b) Expand all.
(c) Page/scroll down till the last line of the list shows at the
bottom of the screen.
(d) Find a top level item (not a parent/grandparent/etc. to the last
item showing in the list) on the screen ..
(e) Collapse it.

... this "pulls up" the bottom of the list so it now lies part way up
from the bottom of the screen (exactly as I'd expect)...

(e) Without doing anything else, drag an item all the way down till
the "between item" line shows up below the last item in the list, and
then drag away.

... On my unit the lines stays put leaving a false line there... until
you drop... then it replots the extra line away.

A long way to go to report a relatively trivial transient display
problem... but I thought you ought to know.  If only because I know
you *care* :)

<and No.  this is not the bug I was referring to>


(2) The menus.

Not quite as much joy there.  Organizationally better, visually ...
well... kinda flaky (I do *hate* being brutal like that).

I think the tab outlines don't work with the attempted "overlap" look
you've got, unless maybe if you put "decenders" on each side of the
highlighted tab to dummy up the "ends" of the tabs next to them. 
Maybe it wouldn't look so "faked" that way...

The replot (OS 3.5.3), is annoying ... so I went and checked what CESD
did with DBK5 (I *have* standards, ya know ;) )  and his is
essentially the same.  Except for one thing.  I think he intentionally
puts up a blank form first, 'cause when his flashes, I don't see
anything "behind" it.

When yours flashes over to the last screen (or whatever, I can't make
it out) I am visually "disturbed" because I attempt to read what's
there ... if you know what I mean...


Ok, that bug I talked about..

At first I thought this was new to the preview, but I reloaded 2.7.2
and it was there too, I just never noticed.

When you use a Tasklist item as the top level item, the checkbox
covers up the expand/collapse arrow.

I have:
(a) indent expand/collapse arrow ON
(b) checkbox instead of circle.
(c) priority number instead of bubble.

I'm not sure I ever would have noticed had it not been for a tiny bit
of the arrow showing from under the box (sublist expanded).  And the
fact that I have two dummy lists with all sorts of weird stuff set up
in there from playing around....

H*ll, who would actually *use* a Tasklist as a parent?  Not me,
obviously!



Ok, did a little more testing...

If I change any or all of the options above, the arrow is still
hidden.... except .... for "indent exp/collapse arrow"...
then the *priority* is hidden behind the checkbox/circle! :/

And if I turn ON "indent priority bubble", there is no overlap.

And... this does NOT occur on lower level Tasklist items that are
parents.

Ken

Kyocera 6035, OS 3.5.3, SP HH 2.7.12
9745

From: imhvfn fkissam@b...  <fkissam@b...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:53am
Subject: Backing up your Palm data

 
I am thinking of putting lots of stuff in Shadow at some point.

When the Palm crashes, how will I restore all those links that 
thePalmOS has stored?  The Shadow Desktop does NOT seem to store 
those links.  

so after the Palm crashes, how do I get all that Palm data back?  
Is there a special backup file?

If I want to use the software BackupBuddy, how would I do that for 
backing up the Shadow data AND links.

Thank you.
9746

From: COLTR COLTR@H...  <COLTR@H...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:26am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I'm willing to put my money where my opinion is.  I haven't purchased 
Shadow yet, I just installed it.  I have used ThoughtManager and 
really enjoyed it's crisp clean look but I really like the features, 
flexibility and power of Shadow.  I look forward to purchasing it at 
whatever you decide to charge.

I just finished reading GTD, and have been a longtime Datebk user, 
and look forward to learning the "tricks and tips" for Shadow.

I am constantly amazed at how such powerful software for the Palm can 
cost so little.  Did ya ever buy popcorn and a couple of cokes at the 
theater.........
9747

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Drag&Drop not working on TT

 
On Wednesday 19 February 2003 02:50, "tes08558 wrote:
> That did it - sorry to have troubled you - I tried
> disabling Jot before I wrote to you, however the trick
> was to do a soft reset after disabling it.  Anyway Jot
> was the culprit.   Thanks

I had the same problem and was sent a v2.01 of Jot that 
works with d&d on SP.

- Robert
9748

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:42am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wednesday 19 February 2003 00:11, Ken Stuart wrote:
> I would say that you can certainly raise the HH price to
> $14.95 anyway.   The problem with the Desktop price is
> that the Desktop doesn't do very much!   I find that I
> never use it because I have to open EVERY item again in
> the HH anyway, in order to set the various tags and other
> options.

I agree. At the moment the desktop app isn't worth the price 
I payed for it. The the HH app's price could certainly go 
up e few dollars.

- Robert
9749

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:54am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
2003-02-18 15:02: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> is believed to
have typed:

>     Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95,
>     or $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)

Personally, yes. (and no I haven't got the desktop yet so this would
mean that I would pay more for the OS X version 8-)

            jem
-- 
Jan Erik Moström   jem@m...    www.mostrom.pp.se
9750

From: Rita  <rblanzan@i...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:16pm
Subject: RE: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
First impression of tabs - yuk, this could be due to being used to the way
they were, I like the idea, I just don't like those tabs.  Maybe you could
extend the themes to the tabs so that the black tabs and the selected white
tab conform with a colour of the odd/even row and the selected tab conforms
with the selected item colour.

Suggestion for tabs - list preferences stay on the last selected tab until
the list is exited or shadow is exited for global preferences.

Drag and drop - this works well with my HH except that it leaves a mid-item
line between the scroll bar and the item when the scroll bar is on the left.
I tried it with the scroll bar on the right and the lines are not there.
The lines seem to stay there until I exit and re-open the list or I open and
close an item.

Strangely enough, I had lots of problems with drag and drop with ver 2.7.2
until I installed graffiti anywhere, then the problems disappeared.  I'm not
sure if this is imagination or not.

Auto import - works well except that I am puzzled as to how shadow  know
where to import the items?  I tried a couple of things and it seems to put
them in a list called "todo list" regardless of what I do.  This is fine by
me, but it puzzles me.  I would like to see the [[[ ]]] remain for items
that I want to go to other lists.  Also, I would prefer it if items that
were started and finished before a sync were not imported at all.

HH is Clie T615.

Great work Jeff.

Rita
9751

From: tes08558 sicora@e...  <sicora@e...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Drag&Drop not working on TT

 
Thanks, I just emailed them for the upgrade

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Robert van der Kamp 
<robnet@w...> wrote:
> On Wednesday 19 February 2003 02:50, "tes08558 wrote:
> > That did it - sorry to have troubled you - I tried
> > disabling Jot before I wrote to you, however the trick
> > was to do a soft reset after disabling it.  Anyway Jot
> > was the culprit.   Thanks
> 
> I had the same problem and was sent a v2.01 of Jot that 
> works with d&d on SP.
> 
> - Robert
9752

From: tewkyep gsuper@v...  <gsuper@v...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:34pm
Subject: losing my tags

 
I have my project list for work in Shadow.  It has the main projects 
as the parents and then tasks and subtasks.  I have been trying to 
use tags to further define the issues (by project, by "internal" 
customer, by location, etc.).  Once I sync, the tags have been 
disappearing.  I am using the latest HH and DT versions.  Why is this 
happening and how do I get it to work correctly?

Thanks.
9753

From: Justin Nelson  <justinn@e...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:57am
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
At 01:59 19/02/2003 +0000, Dennis Pipper wrote:
>If you hike the price, put more marketing focus on the free
>upgrades for life and support feature, I think that is huuuge!

It's not until the customer had downloaded and used Shadow (and is 
subscribing to the discussion group) that he or she realises how good the 
free upgrades/support factor is.  On that basis, it could be better to go 
for a low initial cost with (say) annual renewal subscriptions (though I 
don't actually want to see this).

Also, the DT needs to be significantly improved if it is to cost a 
significant amount - but I know this is on the way

So, if the DT is improved, I think a $20 price for the HH, $10 for the DT 
if bought later, but $25 for both at once seems like good value


Justin Nelson (using a Palm Tungsten T with OS v.5, DateBk5 and ShadowPlan 
in particular)
9754

From: Justin Nelson  <justinn@e...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:01pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
My comments on things new in 2.7.12 on a Palm Tungsten (OS5):

         o New tab control for List Prefs and Global Prefs

After taking a look at this in List Preferences (very nice, BTW!) and 
clicking “OK”, I received a fatal alert: “MemoryMgr.c, Line:3650, 
Non-word-aligned handle”. This was *not* repeated when I tried again, 
having disabled Graffiti Anywhere.  I think you have achieved your goal 
(making configuration easier to use) with this change

         o New drag and drop system

I had no problems with the old system, but this one seems fine, too

         o New general prefs panels

Much cleaner and easier to navigate

         o New auto-import from ToDo and Datebook;

I’m not sure that I will be using these (at least, in the near future), so 
have not played around with them much. However, clearly we need to suppress 
re-importing items that have come from Shadow, and an option to suppress 
importing completed items

         o "Sort undated to bottom" is now available in list prefs

Err … I checked this, and undated items stayed at the top; I unchecked and 
re-checked it, closed and opened the list, and undated items still stayed 
at the top; I unchecked and re-checked it, closed and opened Shadow, and 
undated items *still* stayed at the top;  what am I doing wrong?!

         o First cut of Handera virtual grafitti

Not relevant to me, using a Tungsten

Hope this helps
At 01:59 19/02/2003 +0000, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>Continue reading only if you intend on replying with your opinions
>:) Don't get betas unless you want to help out.

Justin Nelson (using a Palm Tungsten T with OS v.5, DateBk5 and ShadowPlan 
in particular)
9755

From: Greg Jones  <jgregjones@m...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:40pm
Subject: re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff,

I don't mean to flame you here and I believe that Shadow Palm has always
been a good value and sales should not suffer from a $3 increase. Shadow
Palm has always had as many or more features that its competitors and you
have always been responsive to your users.

However, let us speak frankly about the future of Shadow without an equally
useful desktop program to complement it. I realize that many people use
their Palm almost exclusively for tools like Shadow, but many of us also
spend a great deal of time in front of a desktop computer. Frankly, I have
been inconvenienced far too long by the promise of a Macintosh compatible
version that I can sync with my Palm. I gather from reading these threads
that the desktop version for the PC isn't exactly replete with features
either.

I have decided to "downgrade" my outliner and I have gone back to
Brainforest. As lame as Brainforest is, at least I can move information back
and forth between my Mac OS X and my Palm, and I doubt this will ever happen
with Shadow. I wish I had know long ago that there would still be no Shadow
Mac available today, not because of the money I spent on Shadow, but because
of the frustration I have endured because I told myself "Someday I will be
able to use my Shadow files on my Mac."

My question to you is this. Is programming on the PC/Mac side really
something that you want to spend your time doing? Perhaps it is time to look
for a programmer to pick up the load on the desktop side, even if that means
that the Mac version gets dropped altogether. Just my $.02 worth...

Greg Jones

On 2/19/03 9:16 AM, "shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com"
<shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>       We've never once raised our prices, never charged for support or
> upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. Doing
> so disgusts me :)
> 
>       What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or so,
> across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 instead of
> $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our resellers
> keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than stand by
> and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so little,
> getting an extra cut hurts :/
> 
>       Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
>             jeff
9756

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Tuesday 18 February 2003 23:19, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Robert van der Kamp wrote:
> > When hotsyncing my TT crashed. A soft reset and a new
> > hotsync fixed that.
>
> 	Thats pretty weird, but not likely related.

Agreed.

> 	If you have the list titlebar on, you'll have the line
> above the first item in the list. If you have no
> titlebar, theres no space to put the insertion line, so
> you don't get one. I imagine most new folks will have
> titlebars on, so probably okay.

This I don't understand. I can clearly see that the 
insertion line is taken from the top of each current item, 
and even with removed headings, I can still drag an item 
before the first one in the list. 

The problem is that if the headings are shown, the identical 
color of the insertion line and headings make it virtually 
impossible to see if the drop position is okay to insert an 
item before the first one. If I move the pen a bit too 
high, the operation is cancelled. The solution for color 
devices would be to use another color for the insertion 
line.

> 	So your first reaction was "whew, I like this better"?
> Thats good

Definately. My only gripe is that heavy inverted blues I get 
when dragging over an item. I'd prefer an outline drawn 
around the item to indicate the 'on top of an item' 
position. You already have the source item hilited, and by 
moving the pen up or down one item you get a large block of 
blue that's very confusing. Which is which?

> > layout is more flexible but less clear, as you don't
> > see all the tabs in one view.
>
> 	Did your immediate reaction wonder if there was mroe
> tabs, but you knew due to the little arrows? Or did you
> wander around a bit before figuring them out?

Well the problem is that I *know* there should be more tabs, 
but a newbie may not get the hint right away and may need 
another visual clue to indicate there's more.

- Robert
9757

From: bstryd610 bstryd@a...  <bstryd@a...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:03pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Several things for me here:
 1 - As mentioned elsewhere, when I saw the low price, I almost 
didn't try Shadow. I had been trying all the outliners, had settled 
on Arranger bec. of linking, but it failed to advance. So the low 
price put me off re: how powerful the program was supposed to be.
 2 - Also mentioned, I think the DT version is only marginally 
useful, so the small extra cost for now seems right. I use the HH 
Shadow 95% of the time.
 3 - Marketing on the quick and excellent support, and the rapid and 
free upgrades is a definite winner. I think MUCH more could be made 
of this.
 4 - All that being said, your proposed prices are certainly 
warrented. I did flinch a bit on DateBk cost, and have never 
purchased from the "commercial" type programs @ over $25. That being 
said, the excellent Teal stuff is mostly where Shadow is now, and, 
though excellent usually, each piece is very limited in usage.

Go for it -- you earn twice that with support and development.

Bruce
9758

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:06pm
Subject: Invitation to new users

 
I just wanted to say .. this forum has been around awhile now, and
as such its long time readership have gotten to be pretty advanced and
savvy. This never implies that if your'e new you shoudl be afraid to ask
your questions.. I'm sure there are many new people here who woudl love to
see your questions answered, or love to help out with an anseer of their
own. So if you are intimidated by all this high faluting hubub we're
spitting out.. don't be. Just come right out and ask anythign you want, or
send me privately email to support@c... . We're all friends here
:)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9759

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Enhancement request

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Griff wrote:

> Would like a new item type called bullet.  Would be the same as a
> note, but with a bullet type icon at the front.  Perhaps the bullet
> style could be chosen within global theme preferences, perhaps it's
> just a simple big dot.

	Autonumbering not good enough?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9760

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, rbenen <rbtanner@c...> wrote:

> I am slightly chagrined to admit that I have only played with 
> Shadow's capabilities so far--you know, the "I'm too busy to get 
> organized" syndrome? I looked at Shadow Plan based on discussion 
> groups, and I registered it the next day. 

	*g* I am ashamed to admit that my desk currently has about 50 (no
joke) little pieces of paper with ideas, notes, feature requests, etc. I
can't keep up witht he hundreds of emails each day, so I just add to the
pile, and move to Shadow every few days. But you can't tell anyone my
shame ;)

> I can't imagine using this program without the desktop! So, one 
> question would be how many people buy the handheld version only (and 
> why?)Would one bundled program be more cost efficient for you?

	Many reasons. Mainly because I'm like you guys. I hate paying when
I don't want, and there are reasons you may not want the desktop.. so why
pay for it? ie: Especially if you're a Unix or Mac guy right now and there
is no desktop for you (yet!). However, theres a lot of people who just
don't use their desktop computers much, etc, so I want to give them a
break. That said, few people buy the handheld only option.

> Yes, I would have paid more. For important/major upgrades I am 
> willing to pay more. You are spending time, effort and talent on a 
> product that I suspect will be indispensable to me in a few weeks.
> How much would I have paid for a Microsoft program that could do 
> this for me on a single machine? I would much rather pay a bit to 
> keep a developer--and his/her support--in business!

	Noted!

> As a side note, I would much prefer prices that don't end in ".95", 
> but then I also think we should eliminate pennies!

	*g*

		jeff

> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 	We've never once raised our prices, never charged for 
> support or
> > upgrades, etc. I intend on never charging for upgrades or support. 
> Doing
> > so disgusts me :)
> > 
> > 	What do people *honestly* think if I raise the price $3 or 
> so,
> > across all our products? (ie: Handheld Only would become $15.95 
> instead of
> > $12.95). I'm seriously considering it, in light of the fact our 
> resellers
> > keep raising their cuts (so we get less and less). Rather than 
> stand by
> > and get less per unit, we need to keep it up.. since we charge so 
> little,
> > getting an extra cut hurts :/
> > 
> > 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of 
> $12.95, or
> > $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9761

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003,  wrote:

> I have a confession to make.. since I know that even if you raise the
> price of Shadow I will eventually buy the desktop I just went and
> bought it before you raise the price ;) .. btw I am sure you'll sales
> won't be deteriorated by a price increase.

	*g* I have no argument with efficiently using your funds. Of
course, I wasn't intending on raising the price of the expansion pack ;)

	It is likely the handheld and desktop and XCade will go up $3
each; the expansion pack, being more or less the difference in price
between desktop+handheld and handheld-only doesnt' need to change :)

		jeff


--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9762

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Dan T <shipwrght@y...> wrote:

>  Jeff I don't think that raising the price a few dollars should hurt.
> I'd go between $ 16 and $20 for the HH . If I could add only one piece
> of software to my HH it would be ShadowPlan .  I find myself using it
> pretty much every day , for personal and business . I've loaded it
> onto several friends PDA's. The ones that really use them registered
> within a week or two. The others ? They don't use their pda's anyway ,
> if Shadow was free they still would not use it.

	Noted! Thanks for the feedback.

>    I think it would be interesting to see what features people really
> use most of the time.

	Hmm, an interesting poll; I've polled in the past (a year or more
back?) about what sorts of high level things people do.. but not by
feature in a long long time. Perhaps we shoudl draft a list of all
features (thats going to be *long* :), and get everyone to roll up and
down and check the ones they use :)

> What percent only use the standard lists and basic features?  What

	My bet is msot people use the basics and do not ever get into
filtering, tags, etc.

> percent use mostly custom lists , tags , filters etc.  Should SP be
> available in a basic version for $14.95 and the "tech head" version
> for $20+ ? From some of the posts in the past I've gotten the

	Cheaper than that :)

> impression that some people were overwhelmed by the abundance of
> options and features , the very thing that some of us love.  I would

	Yes; I'e gotten an increasing amount of people who are afraid of
Shadow due to it doing "too much" and being scarey. That is why the beta
2.7.12 shows an attempt to simplify some aspects of the system withotu
slowing anyone down (advanced or otherwise). List Prefs with Tabs should
help not scare peopel up front.. hopefully :)

> easier.  I am more organized and a bit less stressed by keeping
> outlines of my projects updated daily with SP. My two main project
> leads also use SP and find it very useful. This helps make me look
> good ;)

	*g* Thanks for the positive note. I should make a new "what peopel
say" section :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9763

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:19pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Morgan Young wrote:

> How about going back to a earlier version?  I am not that famillar with SP,
> but maybe a couple of versions back and people would not feel so
> overwhelmed.  I know that I have definately had a learning curve.  I am
> still learning.

	Do you remember what first hit you as hard? Was it the plethora of
options, or just the way it works?

	Would a user guide help?

	I'm seriously thinking about spendign a few days and putting
together a "how to use this app" guide, that talks abotu drag and drop and
cut and paste and typing new items in, etc.

		jeff

> 
> 
> 
> >  I've gotten the impression that some people were overwhelmed  by
> > the abundance of options and features , the very thing that some
> > of us love.  I would not  mind  sending you the extra $7 to $10
> > to register as part of this next level , Shadow Plus ,ShadowPro
> > or whatever.
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9764

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sync problem

 
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Kevin wrote:

> >the ToDo will clobber the changed Shadow Desktop entry.. you'd have to
> >change it in Palm Desktop or Outlook if you wish to change it outside of
> >Shadow on the handheld.
> 
> Hmm, It's not a big deal to me since I will most likely be staying
> away from todo linking for other reasons.  But, if the desktop updates
> will always get clobbered when there is a value for "linkToDo ID" then
> how about disallowing updates for those records?  By allowing the
> records to get updated on the desktop they will always be out of sync
> unless the hh records get updated later.

	Good points; the desktop knows when an item is linked to ToDo. The
trick is that I need to find a way to see the last time an item was
modified in ToDo (which is not possible right now due to limits of
ToDo). Hmmm. I could have the desktop refuse editting of items that are
linked.. Drag. I'll think on it.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9765

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:

> <For those who care: Kyocera 6035, OS 3.5.3, SP HH 2.7.12>

	This is relevent; on OS3.x the tab control redraw as panels change
is visible. On OS4.x and later, the panels change instantly.. poof, the
new panel is shown. Why? The various licensees made lots of bugs in the
system that makes it look like a fast swpa, so I have to disable it on
"older" units. Annoying but nothign I can do :(

> (1) The D&D...
> 
> I like it better.

	Excellent :) Easier to use, and does what you want?

> I think I'd like it even better if there wasn't quite as much visual
> distinction between being ON an entry and being between them.  Maybe
> "outlining" the entry instead of highlighting it...

	I have been considering outlining. I'll do it in testing and see
how it goes.

> ... this "pulls up" the bottom of the list so it now lies part way up
> from the bottom of the screen (exactly as I'd expect)...
> 
> (e) Without doing anything else, drag an item all the way down till
> the "between item" line shows up below the last item in the list, and
> then drag away.

	yeah, I'm aware of this one. Sort of a pain to fix, but I'll get
it :)

> (2) The menus.
> 
> Not quite as much joy there.  Organizationally better, visually ...
> well... kinda flaky (I do *hate* being brutal like that).
> 
> I think the tab outlines don't work with the attempted "overlap" look
> you've got, unless maybe if you put "decenders" on each side of the
> highlighted tab to dummy up the "ends" of the tabs next to them. 
> Maybe it wouldn't look so "faked" that way...

	Is this a black and white unit? On the older units (I think b/w,
maybe colour?) the tabs dont' overlay properly.. there is a bit of white
space around the edges of the image which covers up the other tabs.
Nothing I can do about it on b/w units :( On colour units, and certainly
newer units, the images overlap and the edges of the tabs touch each
other.

> The replot (OS 3.5.3), is annoying ... so I went and checked what CESD
> did with DBK5 (I *have* standards, ya know ;) )  and his is
> essentially the same.  Except for one thing.  I think he intentionally
> puts up a blank form first, 'cause when his flashes, I don't see
> anything "behind" it.

	Herm.

> When yours flashes over to the last screen (or whatever, I can't make
> it out) I am visually "disturbed" because I attempt to read what's
> there ... if you know what I mean...

	yeah. It undraws the current panel, revealing the old screen, and
draws the new panel. On new units, you onyl see the end result as the
intermediate steps are suppressed.

> At first I thought this was new to the preview, but I reloaded 2.7.2
> and it was there too, I just never noticed.
> 
> When you use a Tasklist item as the top level item, the checkbox
> covers up the expand/collapse arrow.
> 
> I have:
> (a) indent expand/collapse arrow ON
> (b) checkbox instead of circle.
> (c) priority number instead of bubble.

	I enable these options and its no problem for a Tasklist.

	Does it only occur when yo mix tasklista nd non-tasklist items?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9766

From: Kathy Dunham  <sokrne1@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:28pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff:

I, personally, would love a User Guide.  I, too, am one of those users that
have become overwhelmed by all of the capabilities of Shadow.  Things have
been changing so quickly that I can't keep up with it and haven't gotten
into using ShadowPlan (I plan to, of course, but I don't know where to start
-- plus, I take it, the manual hasn't been updated recently -- what version
does the manual now cover, anyway?).

Thanks.

Take care,
Kathy

P.S.  I am also one of the many users that would like to see the Desktop
worked on -- most of my work is done at the computer.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:19 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?


On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Morgan Young wrote:

> How about going back to a earlier version?  I am not that famillar 
> with SP, but maybe a couple of versions back and people would not feel 
> so overwhelmed.  I know that I have definately had a learning curve.  
> I am still learning.

	Do you remember what first hit you as hard? Was it the plethora of
options, or just the way it works?

	Would a user guide help?

	I'm seriously thinking about spendign a few days and putting
together a "how to use this app" guide, that talks abotu drag and drop and
cut and paste and typing new items in, etc.

		jeff

> 
> 
> 
> >  I've gotten the impression that some people were overwhelmed  by 
> > the abundance of options and features , the very thing that some of 
> > us love.  I would not  mind  sending you the extra $7 to $10 to 
> > register as part of this next level , Shadow Plus ,ShadowPro or 
> > whatever.
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
9767

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:32pm
Subject: Re: Backing up your Palm data

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, imhvfn <fkissam@b...> wrote:

> I am thinking of putting lots of stuff in Shadow at some point.
> 
> When the Palm crashes, how will I restore all those links that 
> thePalmOS has stored?  The Shadow Desktop does NOT seem to store 
> those links.  

	I think this is referrign to a hard reset and not a crash. A crash
is essentially harmless, though inconveniant. You would lose only brand
new entered data since last save point, where a save occurs when you exit
Shadow or change lists or the like, or hit Save Now. A crash doesnt'
impact Shadow Desktop or anythign at all beyond that.

	A hard reset (which you have to do yourself, and does not occur on
crashes) will require restoration of all data. That has nothing to do with
Shadow.

	That said.. Shadow backs up very thoroughly; even if you do not
have Shadow Desktop, Shadow has Hotsync Manager back up all your data
files. If you have Shadow Desktop, it keepsits own copies of all files,
and it also keeps the last few versions of each file. So without Shadow
Desktop, you have at least one backup of each file. With Shadow Desktop,
you've got about 5 or 6 backups of every file.

> If I want to use the software BackupBuddy, how would I do that for 
> backing up the Shadow data AND links.

	Backup Buddy is not needed for Shadow per se (see above); however,
it can be handy in general, since it backs up everything else (like your
Shadow prefs, and syetem prefs, and such). However, it won't get you any
additional data protection, as Shadows is beyond the norm anyway.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9768

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, COLTR <COLTR@H...> wrote:

> I'm willing to put my money where my opinion is.  I haven't purchased 
> Shadow yet, I just installed it.  I have used ThoughtManager and 
> really enjoyed it's crisp clean look but I really like the features, 
> flexibility and power of Shadow.  I look forward to purchasing it at 
> whatever you decide to charge.

	Ah, now this is inspiring :)  I do not wish to raise the prices,
but I can't absorb the stores additional cuts easily :/ (Besides.. they
get greedy, I take the hit? Thats not right :/)

> I just finished reading GTD, and have been a longtime Datebk user, 
> and look forward to learning the "tricks and tips" for Shadow.

	Be sure to read shadow-tips .. it is 90% good stuff.. we've tried
to keep the fluff and questions out. Just good lean posts. Read the
archives.. there is very little new posting there :)

> I am constantly amazed at how such powerful software for the Palm can
> cost so little.  Did ya ever buy popcorn and a couple of cokes at the
> theater.........

	*g* Yeah, that is true. Movies are too expensive though,
especially if you have kids :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9769

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:41pm
Subject: RE: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Rita wrote:

> First impression of tabs - yuk, this could be due to being used to the way
> they were, I like the idea, I just don't like those tabs.  Maybe you could
> extend the themes to the tabs so that the black tabs and the selected white
> tab conform with a colour of the odd/even row and the selected tab conforms
> with the selected item colour.

	The tabs as now share colour with the screen.. ie: The selected
tab is white, because the screen si white. Changign the way the OS
operates and colouring the whole panel behind things is way out of scope,
and may not be possible on OS5 :) As such.. the selected tab has to remain
white. The background tab.. I may colour, but for now.. black. (Because
black and white units can do black and white. At this early stage, I
didnt' want to draw colour tabs and black and white, and high res for
both.. suddenly a dozen little images :) I'll try and pretty them up a bit
for release.

> Suggestion for tabs - list preferences stay on the last selected tab until
> the list is exited or shadow is exited for global preferences.

	Hmm. Interesting.

> Drag and drop - this works well with my HH except that it leaves a mid-item
> line between the scroll bar and the item when the scroll bar is on the left.
> I tried it with the scroll bar on the right and the lines are not there.
> The lines seem to stay there until I exit and re-open the list or I open and
> close an item.

	Great catch. I'll fix.

> Strangely enough, I had lots of problems with drag and drop with ver 2.7.2
> until I installed graffiti anywhere, then the problems disappeared.  I'm not
> sure if this is imagination or not.

	Weird :)

> Auto import - works well except that I am puzzled as to how shadow
> know where to import the items?  I tried a couple of things and it
> seems to put them in a list called "todo list" regardless of what I

	If you turn on "auto import" in a list, it will auto import into
itself only. If you turn auto import on in 3 lists, they'll all auto
import :) You must have turned auto import on in your "todo list" :)

> do.  This is fine by me, but it puzzles me.  I would like to see the
> [[[ ]]] remain for items that I want to go to other lists.  Also, I

	Currently, the [[[]]] remains. (Doesn't it?)

> would prefer it if items that were started and finished before a sync
> were not imported at all.

	Sync we can't worry about; but I can skip importing items that are
already checked at import time (as a pref).

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9770

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:42pm
Subject: Re: losing my tags

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tewkyep <gsuper@v...> wrote:

> I have my project list for work in Shadow.  It has the main projects
> as the parents and then tasks and subtasks.  I have been trying to use
> tags to further define the issues (by project, by "internal"  
> customer, by location, etc.).  Once I sync, the tags have been
> disappearing.  I am using the latest HH and DT versions.  Why is this
> happening and how do I get it to work correctly?

	That is odd; send me (privately!) your lastsync.txt file, so I can
check your conduit version and whatnot. The tags are kept during sync.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9771

From: Frederick G. Turner  <fred@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:40pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff: 

> 	*g* Thanks for the positive note. I should make a new 
> "what peopel say" section :)

That's what I've been thinking for a while. Your best marketing message
would be testimonials from your *adoring* users. 

Specifically, as others have noted, comments regarding the value of the
free upgrades and support would probably be more effective than just
telling potential buyers you offer it; I, for one, would probably not
realize how important that is if it were not for how I see you work
you’re a** off here in the group...

Seriously, this would be outstanding strategy...

Fred.
9772

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Justin Nelson wrote:

> My comments on things new in 2.7.12 on a Palm Tungsten (OS5):
> 
>          o New tab control for List Prefs and Global Prefs
> 
> After taking a look at this in List Preferences (very nice, BTW!) and 
> clicking “OK”, I received a fatal alert: “MemoryMgr.c, Line:3650, 
> Non-word-aligned handle”. This was *not* repeated when I tried again, 
> having disabled Graffiti Anywhere.  I think you have achieved your goal 
> (making configuration easier to use) with this change

	Great! However.. that crash.. its happened to about 3 people as
far as I know. Weird. It happened *after* you hit "OK" though?

>          o New drag and drop system
> 
> I had no problems with the old system, but this one seems fine, too

	Hopefully easier for newbies. I may add a pref to turn on
"enahnced drag and drop", which would let you do more. We'll see.

>          o New general prefs panels
> 
> Much cleaner and easier to navigate

	Whew :)

>          o New auto-import from ToDo and Datebook;
> 
> I’m not sure that I will be using these (at least, in the near future), so 
> have not played around with them much. However, clearly we need to suppress 
> re-importing items that have come from Shadow, and an option to suppress 
> importing completed items

	We can (pref) suppress importing completed items. We can suppress
importing if the Shadow origin stamp is present, though that would require
you having that option enabled. We cannot skip when they came form Shadow
beyond that, as we cannot tell.

>          o "Sort undated to bottom" is now available in list prefs
> 
> Err … I checked this, and undated items stayed at the top; I unchecked and 
> re-checked it, closed and opened the list, and undated items still stayed 
> at the top; I unchecked and re-checked it, closed and opened Shadow, and 
> undated items *still* stayed at the top;  what am I doing wrong?!

	You have to hit "sort" ;)

	Thanks!

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9773

From: Frederick G. Turner  <fred@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:48pm
Subject: RE: Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff:
 
> 	Would a user guide help?
> 
> 	I'm seriously thinking about spendign a few days and 
> putting together a "how to use this app" guide, that talks 
> abotu drag and drop and cut and paste and typing new items in, etc.
> 

If you really want to broaden your market reach, I think a user guide is
quickly becoming something indispensable to attract new users. This is a
function of:

a) Shadow's power and complexity (in terms of its many different
"personalities". To quote: " Outliner • Task Manager • Checklist • Note
Taker • ToDo List • Organizer • Life Fixer". Granted, you've simplified
the description a great deal on codejedi.com, but this is still in the
manual :); and 
b) helping noobies understand all the different ways that Shadow can be
used.

It's probably an effective use of a couple of your days. :) And, for
what it's worth, I'm sure several of us here on the group would
volunteer as proof-readers/editors if you wanted (check your spelling in
the paragraph above... just kidding :).

Fred.
9774

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:54pm
Subject: Re: re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Greg Jones wrote:

> I don't mean to flame you here and I believe that Shadow Palm has always
> been a good value and sales should not suffer from a $3 increase. Shadow
> Palm has always had as many or more features that its competitors and you
> have always been responsive to your users.
> 
> However, let us speak frankly about the future of Shadow without an equally
> useful desktop program to complement it. I realize that many people use
> their Palm almost exclusively for tools like Shadow, but many of us also
> spend a great deal of time in front of a desktop computer. Frankly, I have
> been inconvenienced far too long by the promise of a Macintosh compatible
> version that I can sync with my Palm. I gather from reading these threads
> that the desktop version for the PC isn't exactly replete with features
> either.

	Shadow Desktop is the same across all platforms; it is quite
usable by most people, thoguh it is by no means advanced atall. Itlets you
add and delete and move items, do basic exporting and printing. It does
not have filtering or sorting or the like yet. So it is basic, but it is
very useful. I get complemetned on it dfaily by people with low
expectations, and flamed daily by people who want the handheld app on the
desktop. Such is life with limited resources :)

> I have decided to "downgrade" my outliner and I have gone back to
> Brainforest. As lame as Brainforest is, at least I can move
> information back and forth between my Mac OS X and my Palm, and I
> doubt this will ever happen with Shadow. I wish I had know long ago

	Your doubts are unfounded. Join shadow-test :)

> that there would still be no Shadow Mac available today, not because
> of the money I spent on Shadow, but because of the frustration I have
> endured because I told myself "Someday I will be able to use my Shadow
> files on my Mac."

	The reality is that I have limited resources, and that the Mac
market is tiny (sadly). Infact, I am told (daily) by my partners and
stores not to develop the Mac version, and in fact I have lost a a number
of resellers since they do not appreciate me spending my time on the unix
and mac platforms. However, I keep at it. Not fast enough, but I have to
keep everyon e happy, which has mostly cost the Mac crowd :(

	I understand your frustration. I'm working on it.

> My question to you is this. Is programming on the PC/Mac side really
> something that you want to spend your time doing? Perhaps it is time to look
> for a programmer to pick up the load on the desktop side, even if that means
> that the Mac version gets dropped altogether. Just my $.02 worth...

	It is more complicated than that; making a PC app is 1 unit
time. Making a Mac app is 2 unit time. Making the same app on both
together is about 6 unit time. Making the app for each, separately, would
have been faster. However, then feature upgrades and bug fixes would be
required to be done on both, and make those processes extremely slow and
painfull.

	As such, I have taken the huge up front hit of developing one app
that works on multiple platforms. You can see the cost.. large delays,
however the payoff is that all versions are the same app, so fixing bugs
and adding features to all is a low cost thing.. once you get there.

	So.. this is called cross platform development, so one app is for
multiple platforms. Given I'm not an IBM with a big buidget, I cannot
afford $20,000 toolkits to make this easy. Instead I have gone with
inexpensive options, which after getting a year into the project, ahev
turned out to be very buggy and full of issues.. so I've spent much of my
time repairing problems in other peoples work.

	So while it may seem slow to you, I work daily on it. It has just
been a uphill climb. I dont' pass along this info, nor expect anyoen to
appreciate it beyond programmers.. such is my lot :)

	At any rate, the Mac OSX stuff *is* coming (witness screenshots,
an alpha that actually (somewhat) works, etc).

	It is slow going. I'm sorry. You over estimate the amount of money
in the Palm OS industry if you think I can hire an extra developer just
yet ;) 

	(ie: You do realize BrainForest went out of business, right? :)

	We are the only company with a Mac OSX + Palm outliner
application. It is tough going :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9775

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Robert van der Kamp wrote:

> > 	If you have the list titlebar on, you'll have the line
> > above the first item in the list. If you have no
> > titlebar, theres no space to put the insertion line, so
> > you don't get one. I imagine most new folks will have
> > titlebars on, so probably okay.
> 
> This I don't understand. I can clearly see that the 
> insertion line is taken from the top of each current item, 
> and even with removed headings, I can still drag an item 
> before the first one in the list. 
> 
> The problem is that if the headings are shown, the identical 
> color of the insertion line and headings make it virtually 
> impossible to see if the drop position is okay to insert an 
> item before the first one. If I move the pen a bit too 
> high, the operation is cancelled. The solution for color 
> devices would be to use another color for the insertion 
> line.

	Ahh; it used to be "black" but thats no good for various themes.
In 2.7.12 the insertion line is the colour you have set to use as
"selected background" in the theme.. which you correctly note is the same
as the header, by default. Good catch. Solution? Hmmm...

> > So your first reaction was "whew, I like this better"? > Thats good
> 
> Definately. My only gripe is that heavy inverted blues I get when
> dragging over an item. I'd prefer an outline drawn around the item to
> indicate the 'on top of an item' position. You already have the source
> item hilited, and by moving the pen up or down one item you get a
> large block of blue that's very confusing. Which is which?

	I'll be trying the outline box.. just not implemented yet for beta
:)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9776

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, bstryd610 <bstryd@a...> wrote:

>  1 - As mentioned elsewhere, when I saw the low price, I almost 
> didn't try Shadow. I had been trying all the outliners, had settled 
> on Arranger bec. of linking, but it failed to advance. So the low 
> price put me off re: how powerful the program was supposed to be.

	Ineteresting. A few have mentioned this.. that the low price makes
them think less of the app. Remarkable how humanity works :) And here I am
trying to cut you a break :)

>  2 - Also mentioned, I think the DT version is only marginally 
> useful, so the small extra cost for now seems right. I use the HH 
> Shadow 95% of the time.

	The difference in cost between handheld and desktop will not
change; its just both would go up a few bucks (so the desktop would be the
same cost.. I am in fact only raising the price of the handheld, and the
desktop bundle follows. The desktop upgrade price would not change.)

>  3 - Marketing on the quick and excellent support, and the rapid and 
> free upgrades is a definite winner. I think MUCH more could be made 
> of this.

	Yesterday I added a brief paragraph to the front of the website,
and added something to the PalmGear handheld+desktop page, as well as the
registration page on the website.

	ie:

	Front page:
 In following with our belief that good software should be inexpensive,
updates and support is always free so update often! We'll never hold you
back!

	Registration page:
Updates and support are ALWAYS FREE

	The same on PG handheld+desktop page.

>  4 - All that being said, your proposed prices are certainly 
> warrented. I did flinch a bit on DateBk cost, and have never 
> purchased from the "commercial" type programs @ over $25. That being 
> said, the excellent Teal stuff is mostly where Shadow is now, and, 
> though excellent usually, each piece is very limited in usage.

	Yeah; I see a lot of stuff out there that is 1/10th the work
Shadow is, for twice the price. ie: Little hacks or tools that are
expensive. I just don't get it.

> Go for it -- you earn twice that with support and development.

	Thanks :)

	No negatives so far, so I think middle of next week, a small price
change.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9777

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:03pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Kathy Dunham wrote:

> I, personally, would love a User Guide.  I, too, am one of those users
> that have become overwhelmed by all of the capabilities of Shadow.  
> Things have been changing so quickly that I can't keep up with it and
> haven't gotten into using ShadowPlan (I plan to, of course, but I
> don't know where to start -- plus, I take it, the manual hasn't been
> updated recently -- what version does the manual now cover, anyway?).

	Ahh; oneof the design goals is that you can always ignore that
which you do not understand or care to know. Start with the basics and
you're fine :) Perhaps the software does not communicate this well.

	The manual is for version 2.5; 2.6 and 2.7 have lots of behind the
scenes changes, although not huge changes facing you (though Themes are
pretty, they do not change how things work per se). So I didnt' think they
warranted a manual update, though certainly the next release or two will
include a major manual upgrade.

> P.S.  I am also one of the many users that would like to see the
> Desktop worked on -- most of my work is done at the computer.

	Agreed.

	Desktop or User Guide? :)

		jeff

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:19 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?
> 
> 
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Morgan Young wrote:
> 
> > How about going back to a earlier version?  I am not that famillar 
> > with SP, but maybe a couple of versions back and people would not feel 
> > so overwhelmed.  I know that I have definately had a learning curve.  
> > I am still learning.
> 
> 	Do you remember what first hit you as hard? Was it the plethora of
> options, or just the way it works?
> 
> 	Would a user guide help?
> 
> 	I'm seriously thinking about spendign a few days and putting
> together a "how to use this app" guide, that talks abotu drag and drop and
> cut and paste and typing new items in, etc.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >  I've gotten the impression that some people were overwhelmed  by 
> > > the abundance of options and features , the very thing that some of 
> > > us love.  I would not  mind  sending you the extra $7 to $10 to 
> > > register as part of this next level , Shadow Plus ,ShadowPro or 
> > > whatever.
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9778

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:03pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Frederick G. Turner wrote:

> > 	*g* Thanks for the positive note. I should make a new 
> > "what peopel say" section :)
> 
> That's what I've been thinking for a while. Your best marketing message
> would be testimonials from your *adoring* users. 
> 
> Specifically, as others have noted, comments regarding the value of the
> free upgrades and support would probably be more effective than just
> telling potential buyers you offer it; I, for one, would probably not
> realize how important that is if it were not for how I see you work
> you’re a** off here in the group...
> 
> Seriously, this would be outstanding strategy...

	I have been considering counting how many postings I've made in
the forum; we're talking many thousands. "Over 10000 emails served" or
something :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9779

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:06pm
Subject: RE: Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Frederick G. Turner wrote:

> It's probably an effective use of a couple of your days. :) And, for
> what it's worth, I'm sure several of us here on the group would
> volunteer as proof-readers/editors if you wanted (check your spelling
> in the paragraph above... just kidding :).

	I have terrible spelling for email; it comes from a long long
history of typing "in my own way", and typing so rapidly for email that I
don't check my spelling enough (ie: Comes from answering hundreds of
emails a day. If you stopepd to proof read every one, I'd be busy for 8
horus a day just doing that :/)  It shames me, but such is life :)

	If you're stepping up for proof reading, that will be helpfull. I
have started a user guide, I need only spend a day or two to finish
it. (Or "finish" it).

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9780

From: Robert van der Kamp  <robnet@w...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:05pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
On Wednesday 19 February 2003 17:56, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 	I'll be trying the outline box.. just not implemented
> yet for beta

I'll send you a beer.

- Robert
9781

From: Kathy Dunham  <sokrne1@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:27pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I'm sure the software communicates well....I just get confused easily.  ;-)

As for the manual, I guess I need to "pour over it".  I need step-by-step
instructions at my side, in order to accomplish things.  ;-)  Yes, I'm a
manual reader!!!

I guess I'll add a few more things to my ToDo list!!! (i.e., learning how to
best use Shadow, read the manual, play with Shadow, etc.)

BTW, I just saw your newest message about the User Guide -- I'm looking
forward to it.  (Like you don't have enough on your plate, right?)

I know the Desktop is a big project.  I personally feel, though, that Shadow
is so far out in front of its competition (just from what I've read -- no
real personal knowledge), that you can take a little rest from the HH side
to work on the Desktop (I know, "rest" is not a good word, when you're
dealing with working on the Desktop...  :-o

I know others will disagree -- it's only my little ole opinion.

Thanks for a great product.

Take care,
Kathy




-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 12:03 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?


On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Kathy Dunham wrote:

> I, personally, would love a User Guide.  I, too, am one of those users 
> that have become overwhelmed by all of the capabilities of Shadow.
> Things have been changing so quickly that I can't keep up with it and
> haven't gotten into using ShadowPlan (I plan to, of course, but I
> don't know where to start -- plus, I take it, the manual hasn't been
> updated recently -- what version does the manual now cover, anyway?).

	Ahh; oneof the design goals is that you can always ignore that which
you do not understand or care to know. Start with the basics and you're fine
:) Perhaps the software does not communicate this well.

	The manual is for version 2.5; 2.6 and 2.7 have lots of behind the
scenes changes, although not huge changes facing you (though Themes are
pretty, they do not change how things work per se). So I didnt' think they
warranted a manual update, though certainly the next release or two will
include a major manual upgrade.

> P.S.  I am also one of the many users that would like to see the 
> Desktop worked on -- most of my work is done at the computer.

	Agreed.

	Desktop or User Guide? :)

		jeff

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:19 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: Opinion; raising the cost?
> 
> 
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Morgan Young wrote:
> 
> > How about going back to a earlier version?  I am not that famillar
> > with SP, but maybe a couple of versions back and people would not feel 
> > so overwhelmed.  I know that I have definately had a learning curve.  
> > I am still learning.
> 
> 	Do you remember what first hit you as hard? Was it the plethora of 
> options, or just the way it works?
> 
> 	Would a user guide help?
> 
> 	I'm seriously thinking about spendign a few days and putting
together 
> a "how to use this app" guide, that talks abotu drag and drop and cut 
> and paste and typing new items in, etc.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >  I've gotten the impression that some people were overwhelmed  by
> > > the abundance of options and features , the very thing that some of 
> > > us love.  I would not  mind  sending you the extra $7 to $10 to 
> > > register as part of this next level , Shadow Plus ,ShadowPro or 
> > > whatever.
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
9782

From: Jeffrey A. Krzysztow  <jkrzysztow@k...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:39pm
Subject: Re: re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 	It is more complicated than that; making a PC app is 1 unit
> time. Making a Mac app is 2 unit time. Making the same app on both
> together is about 6 unit time. Making the app for each, separately, would
> have been faster. However, then feature upgrades and bug fixes would be
> required to be done on both, and make those processes extremely slow and
> painfull.
> 
> 	As such, I have taken the huge up front hit of developing one app
> that works on multiple platforms. You can see the cost.. large delays,
> however the payoff is that all versions are the same app, so fixing bugs
> and adding features to all is a low cost thing.. once you get there.
> 
> 	So.. this is called cross platform development, so one app is for
> multiple platforms. Given I'm not an IBM with a big buidget, I cannot
> afford $20,000 toolkits to make this easy. Instead I have gone with
> inexpensive options, which after getting a year into the project, ahev
> turned out to be very buggy and full of issues.. so I've spent much of my
> time repairing problems in other peoples work.
> 
> 	So while it may seem slow to you, I work daily on it. It has just
> been a uphill climb. I dont' pass along this info, nor expect anyoen to
> appreciate it beyond programmers.. such is my lot :)
> 
> 	At any rate, the Mac OSX stuff *is* coming (witness screenshots,
> an alpha that actually (somewhat) works, etc).
> 
> 	It is slow going. I'm sorry. You over estimate the amount of money
> in the Palm OS industry if you think I can hire an extra developer just
> yet ;) 
> 
> 	(ie: You do realize BrainForest went out of business, right? :)
> 
> 	We are the only company with a Mac OSX + Palm outliner
> application. It is tough going :)
> 

Have you thought about developing the Desktop in Java? This DOES work 
very well. Sun and Apple have done a very good job of making Java 
perform well under Win9x/NT/2k/XP, Linux, Solaris, and the Mac OS X (as 
a matter of fact, Apple very tightly integrates Java into their OS). I 
currently develop Desktop Java application under Win98se with a 300MHz 
Pentium III (by todays standard hardware, very, very "under powered") 
and they are deployed under Win9x/NT/2k/XP as well as Mac OS X (I 
believe only 1 person is actually running under Linux). I have only had 
one complaint about performance, but that individual was viewing 100 Meg 
JPEG files with it. Must non-Java applications have performance problems 
with photos of that magnatude.

Of coarse, it sounds like you've already bitten the apple and have 
developed your own.

Jeffrey
9783

From: Markus Steffl  <lists@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Hi Jeff,

19. Feb. 2003, 18:06 you wrote:

>         If you're stepping up for proof reading, that will be helpfull. I
> have started a user guide, I need only spend a day or two to finish
> it. (Or "finish" it).

<hint>
Although it's more related to technical documentation, I think the rules
of the following document apply.
</hint>

;-)
 
http://samizdat.mines.edu/howto/HowToBeAProgrammer.pdf

Chapter 3.5

Kind regards
Markus
9784

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:23pm
Subject: Re: re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Jeffrey A. Krzysztow wrote:

> Have you thought about developing the Desktop in Java? This DOES work 
> very well. Sun and Apple have done a very good job of making Java 
> perform well under Win9x/NT/2k/XP, Linux, Solaris, and the Mac OS X (as 

	Yes, of course, but its not really applicable ;) (Especially 2
years ago at the onset) At the time this was begun (remember, the Windows
version has been out a year or 18 months now) the JVMs just were too slow
on older hardware. To this day, a lot of people still have older machines.
Besides of which, Java isn't the most portable despite it wanting to be
(ie: JVM's behaving differently or having different bugs, issues, memory
sizing, etc, and lots of versioning problems starting to show themselves.
Java designers have a long history of never thinking more than 2 weeks
ahead, which shows itself in the language quite a bit :/) But mostly, its
because there normally are not easy to install and distributable JVMs. ie:
Mac OSX I think includes a JVM. However, most versions of Windows do not,
and of course Microsoft is very much against making Java easy to set up
(consider that Win XP does not include a JVM for its web browser even).
So.. most JVMs (at the time anyway) were very expensive to get easily
customized installers, or cheap and with horribly nasty installers that
when I tested them, no one could install. And the interfaces to a lot of
the good stuff was JVM dependant at the time (and even now).. printing,
etc.

	Java may be a bit better suited in some ways (and worse in others)
these days, but I've got applications on all major platforms already
covered. Its just a matter of working out the bugs. And it runs fast on a
486 ;)

	Besides.. a requirement is native look and feel. Java is getting
better this way, but 2 years ago, java was still Swing and AWT, with their
own look and feel.. and that was never acceptible for the audience.

> a matter of fact, Apple very tightly integrates Java into their OS). I 
> currently develop Desktop Java application under Win98se with a 300MHz 
> Pentium III (by todays standard hardware, very, very "under powered") 
> and they are deployed under Win9x/NT/2k/XP as well as Mac OS X (I 
> believe only 1 person is actually running under Linux). I have only had 
> one complaint about performance, but that individual was viewing 100 Meg 
> JPEG files with it. Must non-Java applications have performance problems 
> with photos of that magnatude.

	For sure. Times are a changing, but not enough for my audience
yet :)

> Of coarse, it sounds like you've already bitten the apple and have 
> developed your own.

	Yep, thats why theres a Windows app already :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9785

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:12pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
If Shadow's desktop were more powerful, would you stop using little
pieces of paper?

> 
> 	*g* I am ashamed to admit that my desk currently has about 50
(no
> joke) little pieces of paper with ideas, notes, feature requests, etc.
I
> can't keep up witht he hundreds of emails each day, so I just add to
the
> pile, and move to Shadow every few days. But you can't tell anyone my
> shame ;)
>
9786

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:18pm
Subject: RE: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
I still think drawing the list prefs screen, full screen, as the global
prefs screen is, would make things more consistent.  Throwing up a blank
form would almost require this. 

> 
> > The replot (OS 3.5.3), is annoying ... so I went and checked what
CESD
> > did with DBK5 (I *have* standards, ya know ;) )  and his is
> > essentially the same.  Except for one thing.  I think he
intentionally
> > puts up a blank form first, 'cause when his flashes, I don't see
> > anything "behind" it.
> 
> 	Herm.
>
9787

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:11pm
Subject: RE: Enhancement request

 
OK, so when did I miss that?!  That must've gone in recently and I just
didn't see the announcement <LOL>.

> > Would like a new item type called bullet.  Would be the same as a
> > note, but with a bullet type icon at the front.  Perhaps the bullet
> > style could be chosen within global theme preferences, perhaps it's
> > just a simple big dot.
> 
> 	Autonumbering not good enough?
> 
>
9788

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:24pm
Subject: RE: Re: Shadow Plan 2.7.12 Beta available

 
Yes, please :-D

> 	We can (pref) suppress importing completed items. We can
suppress
> importing if the Shadow origin stamp is present, though that would
require
> you having that option enabled. We cannot skip when they came form
Shadow
> beyond that, as we cannot tell.
>
9789

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:24pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I might suggest raising prices just once, rather than possibly having to
raise them again in a year when the stores get even more greedy.  I
really think going up to $17.95 for the Palm alone would be best.  Still
lower than others, you get an extra $5 per reg., and people don't see
Shadow going up in cost many times.

> 
> 	Ah, now this is inspiring :)  I do not wish to raise the prices,
> but I can't absorb the stores additional cuts easily :/ (Besides..
they
> get greedy, I take the hit? Thats not right :/)
>
9790

From: Margit Curtright  <margit@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
Jeff,

I'm a fairly new user - I lurk a lot and am looking forward to some of the
new features I've been reading about.

I'd be glad to help you proofread your user guide, if you'd like.

Margit Curtright
margit@s...

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:06 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising
the cost?


On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Frederick G. Turner wrote:

> It's probably an effective use of a couple of your days. :) And, for
> what it's worth, I'm sure several of us here on the group would
> volunteer as proof-readers/editors if you wanted (check your spelling
> in the paragraph above... just kidding :).

	I have terrible spelling for email; it comes from a long long
history of typing "in my own way", and typing so rapidly for email that I
don't check my spelling enough (ie: Comes from answering hundreds of
emails a day. If you stopepd to proof read every one, I'd be busy for 8
horus a day just doing that :/)  It shames me, but such is life :)

	If you're stepping up for proof reading, that will be helpfull. I
have started a user guide, I need only spend a day or two to finish
it. (Or "finish" it).

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"


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9791

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:49pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Griff wrote:

> If Shadow's desktop were more powerful, would you stop using little
> pieces of paper?

	No, not likely. (Smartass ;)

	Theres a lot of reasons. See, I'm a unique and special case. I'm
doing more email than anyone alive I think, and I do it across 4 platforms
.. Windows, Unix, Mac, and PDA. Some machines may not be usable at any
given time.. the general constant is I use one shell server for all my
email, since I can use it from anywhere, from any machine. Keeps life
easy. Imagine using a different machin every day.. no good. So I use any
machineI touch as an access point to my real machine(s), and do the work
remotely in text only. Cool. I'm betting everyone else in the world has
one machine they use most of the time, and it can support GUIs ;)

	I use Shadow for damned near *everything* (duh, no brainer there
right? :) However, due to the above setup and details below.. I cannot use
Shadow for is support mail "stuff". Why you might ask?

	A long answer :)

	First issue is locality; I'm not stationairy too much. I'm most
often in my house and in my office when doing email support for instance,
but not all the time.. I'm often using a laptop in another room while
having coffee with the family, etc. I may be on the road using a text
terminal (telnet/ssh) from my Palm (woot!), or using text terminal/VPN
from god only knows where. You'll note that when in the house, I don't
carry my PDA around with me, which is what really breaks the whole system
(though thaty could be remedied. Still, not enough ;) While on the road, I
can maintain stuff in Shadow on the PDA.. if I'm not using the PDA for
access. While in my office, I can use Shadow Desktop if I happen to be in
Windows. But you'll note that if I'm at the laptop, or in my office using
Unix or Mac OSX then switching contexts an swivelling around to my Windows
box is disruptive and inefficient. And of course, when using the PDA for
access, I cannot also use it for Shadow, since the telnet/ssh apps cannot
"suspend" and return without making you log in again :/

	You might think spinning the chair around to use Shadow Dekstop
for Windows wouldn't take too much time.. but that leads me to the second
point.

	Imagine getting up at 6am and seeing 300 or 400 emails in your
inbox. Theres not a lot of hubub.. you just "get to it". And you'll note
that swivelleing around a chair and mucking about will waste a few
moments, and when you're banging through that volume of email.. no way can
you blow a few seconds here or there.

	So.. imagine seeing a few hundred emails while on a PDA via
telnet/ssh (text terminal). Palm OS is single tasking.. so if I'm on the
road with PDA using the PDA, I'd have to switch out of the telnet/ssh app
to get to Shadow to update the item.. can't do it. That'd mean
reconnecting the text session each time, between emails.

	So already when on the laptop my PDA isn't handy sometimes, and
when in my office, I'm 3/4 of the time in Unix, and when on the road, I
might be using the PDA for telnet/ssh and thus not for Shadow.

	So for support email only.. I cannot use Shadow.. its just not
available enough for me.

	But thats me.. I'm a special case :) Everyone else has no excuse
;)

	So I keep everything in Shadow. But if I'm accessing somehow that
blocks me from being able to use Shadow (which is degrading for me, I
admit ;) out comes a scrap of paper :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9792

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:51pm
Subject: RE: Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Margit Curtright wrote:

> I'm a fairly new user - I lurk a lot and am looking forward to some of the
> new features I've been reading about.
> 
> I'd be glad to help you proofread your user guide, if you'd like.

	When/If I get it usable, I'll post a link to it here so people can
beet me up, then :)

		jeff

> 
> Margit Curtright
> margit@s...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:06 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: user guide... Was: Opinion; raising
> the cost?
> 
> 
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Frederick G. Turner wrote:
> 
> > It's probably an effective use of a couple of your days. :) And, for
> > what it's worth, I'm sure several of us here on the group would
> > volunteer as proof-readers/editors if you wanted (check your spelling
> > in the paragraph above... just kidding :).
> 
> 	I have terrible spelling for email; it comes from a long long
> history of typing "in my own way", and typing so rapidly for email that I
> don't check my spelling enough (ie: Comes from answering hundreds of
> emails a day. If you stopepd to proof read every one, I'd be busy for 8
> horus a day just doing that :/)  It shames me, but such is life :)
> 
> 	If you're stepping up for proof reading, that will be helpfull. I
> have started a user guide, I need only spend a day or two to finish
> it. (Or "finish" it).
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9793

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:49pm
Subject: RE: Enhancement request

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, Griff wrote:

> OK, so when did I miss that?!  That must've gone in recently and I just
> didn't see the announcement <LOL>.

	Autonumber bullets went in before Shadow 1.0 :)

		jeff

> 
> > > Would like a new item type called bullet.  Would be the same as a
> > > note, but with a bullet type icon at the front.  Perhaps the bullet
> > > style could be chosen within global theme preferences, perhaps it's
> > > just a simple big dot.
> > 
> > 	Autonumbering not good enough?
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9794

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:09pm
Subject: RE: Enhancement request

 
No they didn't, and you can't prove it :-P  OK, so you can, but don't.

> 
> > OK, so when did I miss that?!  That must've gone in recently and I
just
> > didn't see the announcement <LOL>.
> 
> 	Autonumber bullets went in before Shadow 1.0 :)
> 
> 		jeff
>
9795

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:15pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	So.. imagine seeing a few hundred emails while on a PDA via
> telnet/ssh (text terminal). Palm OS is single tasking.. so if I'm on the
> road with PDA using the PDA, I'd have to switch out of the
telnet/ssh app
> to get to Shadow to update the item.. can't do it. That'd mean
> reconnecting the text session each time, between emails.

This makes me think there's a need for a curses-based Shadow desktop.

Then you could just ^Z/fg your way around. Might need an scp
synchronization tool, too...

(I'm not serious)

-Tom
9796

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:58pm
Subject: RE: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
> 
> 	No, not likely. (Smartass ;)

I've been called worse ;-)

OK, so why not use the laptop for e-mail all the time?  I'd imagine it's
windows based, and always available while at home. 

Once the UNIX version is out, would you use the desktop 3/4 of the time?

What about all those PDA's you have?  Why not dedicate one to e-mail
while on the road so that you wouldn't have to switch apps?

My excuse is graffiti.  I do pretty well in it, but nowhere as well as I
do typing and certainly not close to scribbling notes on paper.

I use the desktop, sometimes, but I don't like it.  I suspect in 6
months to a year from now most of my input will be done on the desktop
and the Clie will be used for daily processing. 

> 	So already when on the laptop my PDA isn't handy sometimes, and
> when in my office, I'm 3/4 of the time in Unix, and when on the road,
I
> might be using the PDA for telnet/ssh and thus not for Shadow.
> 
> 	So for support email only.. I cannot use Shadow.. its just not
> available enough for me.
> 
> 	But thats me.. I'm a special case :) Everyone else has no excuse
> ;)
> 
> 	So I keep everything in Shadow. But if I'm accessing somehow
that
> blocks me from being able to use Shadow (which is degrading for me, I
> admit ;) out comes a scrap of paper :)
>
9797

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tsuchy <tsuchy@y...> wrote:

> > 	So.. imagine seeing a few hundred emails while on a PDA via
> > telnet/ssh (text terminal). Palm OS is single tasking.. so if I'm on the
> > road with PDA using the PDA, I'd have to switch out of the
> telnet/ssh app
> > to get to Shadow to update the item.. can't do it. That'd mean
> > reconnecting the text session each time, between emails.
> 
> This makes me think there's a need for a curses-based Shadow desktop.
> 
> Then you could just ^Z/fg your way around. Might need an scp
> synchronization tool, too...
> 
> (I'm not serious)

	*g* I have considered it :)

	Actually, my theory was more like this..

	I'm intending on adding some basic support for scripting to Shadow
Desktop; ie: 4 scripts.. before sync, before file, after file, and after
sync. Then the before-sync job could ftp/scp/wget/fetch a file from the
shell server, XML-ify it, and then it would sync to the handheld. I'd have
to add an "always overrides handheld" flag to make it work.

	Sick eh?

	I've also been considering building a "perl" plugin or module for
Shadow Desktop (depends on the licensing of perl and free time).. so you
could extend Shadow Desktop in perl. That'd make peopel go mental, but
coudl also accelerate development, since knocking out perl is easier than
'C' code :) So if I get ambitious, I might make the import/export future
system all perl based, with tie-ins to the Shadow Desktop core. Sick sick
sick :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9798

From: buckeye15217 rabrams18@a...  <rabrams18@a...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:37pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I just became aware of Shadow Plan a week ago and just registered 
yesterday. Finding this message thread today is a bit of a 
coincidence since I was contemplating sending Jeff an email 
complimenting him on his market savy for pricing Shadow Plan so low. 
It's hard to say what I would have done retrospectively, but knowing 
what a cheep SOB I can be, I can say that my quick registration was 
due to the low price. Do I think it's worth more? Absolutely. Would I 
have paid more? I'm not sure.
Rick


> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, 
or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
9799

From: buckeye15217 rabrams18@a...  <rabrams18@a...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:37pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
I just became aware of Shadow Plan a week ago and just registered 
yesterday. Finding this message thread today is a bit of a 
coincidence since I was contemplating sending Jeff an email 
complimenting him on his market savy for pricing Shadow Plan so low. 
It's hard to say what I would have done retrospectively, but knowing 
what a cheep SOB I can be, I can say that my quick registration was 
due to the low price. Do I think it's worth more? Absolutely. Would I 
have paid more? I'm not sure.
Rick


> 	Would you have bought if Shadow was $15.95 instead of $12.95, 
or
> $22.95 instead of $19.95 (for the handheld and desktop?)
> 
> 		jeff
9800

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:23pm
Subject: Re: Opinion; raising the cost?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, tsuchy <tsuchy@y...> wrote:
> > This makes me think there's a need for a curses-based Shadow desktop.
> > 
> > Then you could just ^Z/fg your way around. Might need an scp
> > synchronization tool, too...
> > 
> > (I'm not serious)
> 
> 	*g* I have considered it :)
> 
> 	Actually, my theory was more like this..
> 
> 	I'm intending on adding some basic support for scripting to Shadow
> Desktop; ie: 4 scripts.. before sync, before file, after file, and after
> sync. Then the before-sync job could ftp/scp/wget/fetch a file from the
> shell server, XML-ify it, and then it would sync to the handheld.
I'd have
> to add an "always overrides handheld" flag to make it work.
> 
> 	Sick eh?

Totally cool...

> 	I've also been considering building a "perl" plugin or module for
> Shadow Desktop (depends on the licensing of perl and free time).. so you
> could extend Shadow Desktop in perl. That'd make peopel go mental, but
> coudl also accelerate development, since knocking out perl is easier
than
> 'C' code :) So if I get ambitious, I might make the import/export future
> system all perl based, with tie-ins to the Shadow Desktop core. Sick
sick
> sick :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

perl rules...

O module lets you compile perl stuff, but don't know if O will make Tk
work under windows, last time i tried this it didn't work. If it's
non-Tk it works fine for most things.

Artistic license says it's ok to compile perl with your own stuff and
dist it, but it can't be represented as a "Standard version"... this
is '97 Artistic, don't know if it's changed. Also, the licensing for
XML::Parser/expat (or whatever you're into) might be different.

But if it was OK, that would rock. wrap up a simple script that reads
cmdline input, pull in some shadow-specific classes, compile it into a
standalone exe, and you're up and running.

XSL might be tricky, as the perl version was very incomplete last time
i checked (late last year). Might want to include xalan or xerces
(whichever is the XSL one, i forget) instead of XML::XSLT or whatever.
Licensing may vary there as well.

Sorry about the dump here, but i get excited when Perl meets anything
cool.

-Tom
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