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9001

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:59pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Chris Dent wrote:

> > > And further proof to me that we need item-item linking between
> > > files...I'll push for it in a month or so when the Mac desktop is out
> > > ;-)
> >
> > 	Item to titem to what end? What is your exact goal for item to
> > item linking? (It is always best to think in terms of goals, and then we
> > can worry about methods :)
> 
> I want item to item linking for transclusions.

	<image>
	Hat flies off head and hits the roof
	</image>

	From websters.com:

 The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling
suggestion below or try again using the Dictionary search box to the
right.

Suggestions for transclusions:

	 1. transductions
	 2. transactions
	 3. transudations
	 4. transduction
	 5. transductional
	 6. transactional
	 7. transcriptions
	 8. transmutations
	 9. transgressions
	10. transections

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9002

From: Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:31pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Jeff Mitchell wrote:

> > > 	Item to titem to what end? What is your exact goal for item to
> > > item linking? (It is always best to think in terms of goals, and then we
> > > can worry about methods :)
> >
> > I want item to item linking for transclusions.
>
> 	<image>
> 	Hat flies off head and hits the roof
> 	</image>

It's a Ted Nelson term. It's basically what you are doing with
ToDos: changes in one place are reflected in the other place.
Search on google for more:

  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=transclusions

Basically, in Shadow I think of a transclusion as having the same
item show up in multiple lists with a bi-directional link between
both of them. In addition to allowing one item in multiple lists
it would also allow deep linking into Shadow files (unless I'm
mistaken you can only link from an item to another file, not
_into_ another file).

So if I'm manipulating a particular item in one list and I want
it in another list I have two options:

- I can copy it is in traditional way. Changes in one list are
  not reflected in the other and there is no link maintained
  between the two.
- I can transclude it. Changes to the item in one list are
  reflected in the other. A traversable link is made between the
  two items.

This probably gets somewhat complicated with hierarchy.

-- 
Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>  http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/
"If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are
opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be
justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky
9003

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:58pm
Subject: Re: List templates

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Rafael Barbera wrote:

> * Can I save this as a template? I haven't found anything on the manual
> about this.

	I look at every list as a template; in the file selection screen
you can use "Duplicate" to copy any list. Some people crete a category
called Templates and fill it up full of empty useful list layouts, and
then use Duplciate to copy them for their real lists.

> * When I create a new top level entry it have the same atributes that its
> sibiling (I have configured ShadwoP to this), but when I put a childern
> under this new parent, they don't use the "child" style. Is posible to get
> this behaviour?

	New items always take on the style of the list itself (as in List
Prefs), currently.

> If the answer to this two questions is NOT, I'll sugest a route to
> acomplish this (and other similar behaviour). Instead of one Item type
> for list, there will be two styles for Items. One for parent an other
> for childerns. Or if you prefer there will be styles defined for the
> three first levels (as ShadowP do currently for auto-numbering).

	It'd probably be better to have new items take on the styles of
nearby items (like they do for auto-numbering). If people like this idea,
I coudl look into it.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9004

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:04pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Chris Dent wrote:

> > > I want item to item linking for transclusions.
> >
> > 	<image>
> > 	Hat flies off head and hits the roof
> > 	</image>
> 
> It's a Ted Nelson term. It's basically what you are doing with
> ToDos: changes in one place are reflected in the other place.
> Search on google for more:

	Ahh, Ted Nelson. That explains it ;)

	A item to item sync is okay. Item to item rollup across lists I'll
probably not concern myself with.

	The current plan is to allow one to send an item to anotehr file
but rememebr its origin (link). The orignial item can never have any idea
where all its clones are, but the clones can do a "goto" to jump to the
original. The original will be kept the same as the children for handheld
edits. od knows what I'll be able to do for desktop edits and sync edits
:/

> Basically, in Shadow I think of a transclusion as having the same
> item show up in multiple lists with a bi-directional link between
> both of them. In addition to allowing one item in multiple lists
> it would also allow deep linking into Shadow files (unless I'm
> mistaken you can only link from an item to another file, not
> _into_ another file).

	Define deep linking in this context.

> So if I'm manipulating a particular item in one list and I want
> it in another list I have two options:
> 
> - I can copy it is in traditional way. Changes in one list are
>   not reflected in the other and there is no link maintained
>   between the two.
> - I can transclude it. Changes to the item in one list are
>   reflected in the other. A traversable link is made between the
>   two items.

	A link can have a file-id and item-id in it; so the linked item
would be sent to the target file. It woudl know how to get abck to its
original item (file id and unique item id remembered). The original item
woudln't know abotu the child, since there coudl be dozens of them. If you
have a cloned item, and you clone it again, the (grandchild) clone will
still know only the original and not the 2nd generation (child) clone.

	When a file with a clone item is opened, the original item is
checked and the text copied. When a file closes that has a clone item, the
original item is updated in the original file.

	Thsi way all items are kept the same for handheld edits.

	If you edit the item on the desktop and sync a cloned item, the
changes will be lost when you open the file. Until the desktop is made
aware of the clone ability, and it would require the various other files
to be present on the desktop as well (instant over complciation, like all
things Shadow.. never easy ;)

	Changing the original item will work as expected.

> This probably gets somewhat complicated with hierarchy.

	Position isn't relevant; only content. Position is an attribute of
the list itself, not the item.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9005

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:09pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> 
> 	Depending on the contentsof the @Phone item, maybe you need to
see
> the parents and whatnot to make sense of it?
> 
> 	Bug me in 2 weeks. I might be able to build in a
> matching-items-only option to the filters, to flatten the results.
> 

True...probably a filter pref would be good.  For a context oriented
todo list though I wouldn't need to see the parents. 


> > So, back to the old method of linking to DB5 views via todo.
> 
> 	Or Shadow WeekView in awhile maybe :)

Yeah, this has a lot of promise too ;-)  I am really concerned with
speed though, and of course we'd have to force better appointment
handling into Shadow if Shadow Unified Viewer came out ;-)

> 
> 	Item to titem to what end? What is your exact goal for item to
> item linking? (It is always best to think in terms of goals, and then
we
> can worry about methods :)
> 

The goal for me is to have item-item linking behave like the existing
ToDo linking we already have.  I want to hit a checkbox and have my item
wind up in another file (predefined in list prefs), complete with origin
stamp and back linking.  If I check the item off in one file, it checks
off in the other...change a date, dates change across the board.  It'd
be nice to have a choice of files should one go into Link Manager ->
Item Link, but for me the checkbox sending to a predefined filename is a
must. 

I want all properties in sync except for view information, including
tags, priorities, and % complete.  I'd have my project files displayed
differently than my context views list, so I'd need to be able to have a
different view for each occurrence.

I'd like to be able to tap the link arrow, tap "Item Link" and be taken
to the linked item...likewise if I am in the linked item, tap "Item
Link" and go back to the origin. (Sort of like Shadow-Link for Todos,
only Shadow would handle it all.

Would be great to have a simple copy to file type link available just
like todo links have now...and of course a sever link with delete
entirely and leave in DB options available.

I wouldn't propose recursive links (A links to B who links to C who
links back to A).  Perhaps a linked flag so that if an item was created
based on a link, you can't link from it.  I know this limits
functionality, but I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot easier to code and deal
with. 

Once we got this working, with checkbox and all, we could look forward
to completion activates next task using Shadow to do it.  Check off item
A, and item B automatically links over to the predefined file. 

So to recap, I want to get Shadow to link with itself just as it links
with the ToDo database, but with a few enhancements such as copying tags
over. 

This one is a big priority for me...you've always said you don't want to
focus time on supporting external apps...so let's make Shadow interact
with itself better.
9006

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:42pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> 
> > Been playing around with a new system using one list.
> >  I must admit I hate how tags are applied.the interface is just too
> > clumsy and isn't all that intuitive for me.  I don't know how all
you
> > taggers out there get away from the frustration that is picking
> > multiple tags within different categories.
> 
> 	If you've got any suggestions let me know :)
> 
> 	I've thought about adding a tag-bar somewhere as an option.
Remove
> the last row of the screen and show a tag bar.. like the titlebar, but
> with one bar-chunk for each tag category. Then you tap on the category
to
> pop up the tags for that category, and tap to add. So two tap tagging,
any
> category. But really.. nto sure thats such a great solution. You've
got
> two-tap-tagging for one catefgory already using the tag column.

I think the tag manager needs to be rebuilt.  Needs to have two
sections, one for editing/defining new tags, and one for selecting tags,
with the selecting tags screen being the default.

I tap tag column, tag manager and I am brought to a screen where I can
multi-select various tags via checkbox.  Perhaps an extra checkbox to
specify the primary tag, check this box and the select box is
auto-checked.  You could add a category picker there so one can filter
out unused tags for that list, but I would want an "All Tags" view as
well.  Would be really nice to have the tags broken up underneath
category headings:

Tag Category one
Selectbox primarybox tag1
Selectbox primarybox tag2
Selectbox primarybox tag3

Tag Category two
Selectbox primarybox tag1
Selectbox primarybox tag2
Selectbox primarybox tag3

The place in link manager for tags has always seemed out of place for
me...tags aren't really links, they are tags.  You could enhance the
link manager area with the checkbox idea, but it'd mean 4 taps to get to
managing selected tags, instead of two (tap tag column, tap tag
manager).  I would remove the tag area from the links manager...but it
might be better to leave it in for those that use tags from the link
manager.

The existing tag management screen would just be a separate tab within
the tag manager.  I like how that area works.

This would make my life a lot simpler, and with less taps.  Right now to
add multiple tags from different categories I have to go through a lot
of taps.  With the new system I have 2 taps to get in, a tap for each
tag I want and an Apply or Done tap.  On adding three tags, from
different categories, it saves me 6 taps.  (Doing it the existing way
takes 12 taps). 

I think the tag bar could get cluttered, especially if someone has over
5 categories of tags. 

> 
> > One thing that I think would make it better is to add an option for
> > new items to inherit the tag of the current filter.  So, if I had a
> > filter set to only display items with the Financial Tag, when I went
> > to add a new item, the item would get a Financial tag so it stays in
> > view.  I envision this as a global option because I am sure there
are
> > those that wouldn't want this.
> 
> 	Doesn't make too much sense.. filters are too complex and could
> get even more varied.

OK, I can live without filter-type inheritance if we get a new tag
manager ;-)

> 	Inheritance is somethign we definitely need to think seriously
> about; either new items inherit tags of their parent by default, or
> filters need to check the parents for their tags.
> 
> 	We need to bang this idea around a bit and decide which is best.
I
> think new items inheritting tags is good, and I think a "paste tags"
in
> the [C] could help a lot. So you coudl Copy an item, then Paste its
tags.
> 

I do like the idea of tag inheritance from parent.  Could speed things
up even more when entering details for a project.  I also like a copy
and paste tags. 


> > I also want to add my vote for items inheriting the primary tag of
their
> > parents upon creation.
> 
> 	Or all tags?
> 

I guess it wouldn't really matter...you can have unlimited tags per
item, so all is fine.

> 
> 	I've beren thinking of this as well; not one big list, byt
merging
> a few lists. And not just a merge.. its a juggling. When you'rekeeping
> lists separate, they are organized byhierarchy. But when you merge
> the.. you'd still just have two hierarchies on top of each other. What
you
> want is to juggle the data so that the list is internally consistent,
but
> that you can still see thigs by filter criterion.

I honestly still like the idea of separate lists per project.  For some
reason zoom to level just doesn't do it for me...it's all in my head I
know.  Each project list has the same view and format, so that's not an
issue.  It's just easier for me to open up Project C from the recent
files list than to find Project C in my big list, and then tap View ->
Zoom to Level.  I think it's the searching that gets me.  Also the load
and save times on big lists are longer than on smaller lists. 



> 
> > I will then setup filters for Roles, Projects, and Contexts.  The
> > problem with the system is the tags will be a hassle to input each
time.
> > If I could get the my request implemented I could zoom too Financial
and
> > at least each new item would get that tag, one less step for me.  If
we
> > got the parents suggestion added, it would save me the step of
adding
> > Redistribute 401k to all the subtasks for that project.  Then I'd be
> > left with adding context, which wouldn't be that bad.
> 
> 	Lets refine a little. I'll have time in a bit to do some more
> drastic work, so if we can puzzle out how best to do it, I'll do it.
> 
> > todo.I've re-suggested item-item linking between Shadow files, but
maybe
> > something like this would be simpler to implement.
> 
> 	Item to item for purposes of jumping is doable.. but for all
sorts
> of other super powers is very tough.
> 
> 		jeff
> 

I realize I'm just one in a group of 1000s of users using Shadow.  My
goal is to et SP better suited to the GTD types.  If we can develop a
solid, works for most approach for managing action lists and projects
for GTDers I think ShadowPlan will become the default choice for
Palm-GTD folk even more so than it is now. 

I know it is a bit of a niche market, but imagine the registrations that
could come from it if you included a sample with all these GTD-type
features in with all Amazon purchases of the GTD book. 

Yes, I'm bored, it's a holiday, and I am in thought-mode...and you asked
for ideas...it's all your fault ;-)
9007

From: Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:51pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Jeff Mitchell wrote:

> > Basically, in Shadow I think of a transclusion as having the same
> > item show up in multiple lists with a bi-directional link between
> > both of them. In addition to allowing one item in multiple lists
> > it would also allow deep linking into Shadow files (unless I'm
> > mistaken you can only link from an item to another file, not
> > _into_ another file).
>
> 	Define deep linking in this context.

Right now you can link from an item to another file. You end up
in the file, but not somewhere in particular. With item to item
linking you'd end up right on the item: just like deep linking on
the web where you pass by all the entry stuff and just get what
you want.

> 	When a file with a clone item is opened, the original item is
> checked and the text copied. When a file closes that has a clone item, the
> original item is updated in the original file.

That sounds good.

> 	If you edit the item on the desktop and sync a cloned item, the
> changes will be lost when you open the file. Until the desktop is made
> aware of the clone ability, and it would require the various other files
> to be present on the desktop as well (instant over complciation, like all
> things Shadow.. never easy ;)

For my own personal use the desktop isn't relevant, but I
understand that it is very important for some.


-- 
Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>  http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/
"If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are
opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be
justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky
9008

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:52pm
Subject: What do you hate? :)

 
Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..

	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
surround Shadow Plan?

	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
*dislike*? If anything?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9009

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:55pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
> 
> I honestly still like the idea of separate lists per project.  For
some
> reason zoom to level just doesn't do it for me...it's all in my head I
> know.  Each project list has the same view and format, so that's not
an
> issue.  It's just easier for me to open up Project C from the recent
> files list than to find Project C in my big list, and then tap View ->
> Zoom to Level.  I think it's the searching that gets me.  Also the
load
> and save times on big lists are longer than on smaller lists.
> 


BOOKMARKS!  Imagine being able to define a parent item as a bookmark,
tap the V menu, then bookmarks, and have a list of bookmarks for that
list.  Maybe even a global pref to automatically zoom inside the
bookmarked area. 

Would eliminate the searching for me...

OK, so now that I have multiple requests out I should prioritize:

1. Item-Item linking as described in a previous post this morning.
2. Tag-manager rewrite as described in my previous post.
3. Bookmarks - a silly little idea, but a fun one.
9010

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:59pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Griff wrote:

> The goal for me is to have item-item linking behave like the existing
> ToDo linking we already have.  I want to hit a checkbox and have my
> item wind up in another file (predefined in list prefs), complete with
> origin stamp and back linking.  If I check the item off in one file,
> it checks off in the other...change a date, dates change across the
> board.  It'd be nice to have a choice of files should one go into Link
> Manager -> Item Link, but for me the checkbox sending to a predefined
> filename is a must.

	See my other post with some basic 2 or 3 rules that take care of
most of your goals.

	ie: On open a list we open the items. When opening an item that is
a clone, it copies details from its original parent. If you clone a clone,
it still only knows about its original parent. When you close an item that
is a clone, the original is updated. Thsu when you edit an item, only the
current item is changed. But when yuo asve the list (save, exit shadow,
whatever) the original item will be updated. If another list has a clone,
then it will get updated when you open that list. I suppose we'd need a
special rule for if you link item to item for an item in the *current*
list, so it woudl have to update right away to make any sense at
all. Cloned items coudl go to the original item, but the original item
would have no idea tha it has clones or where they are, etc (since there
could be many). Detail to be copied would be most, but not view or
hierarchy.

> I want all properties in sync except for view information, including
> tags, priorities, and % complete.  I'd have my project files displayed
> differently than my context views list, so I'd need to be able to have a
> different view for each occurrence.

	Check.

> I'd like to be able to tap the link arrow, tap "Item Link" and be
> taken to the linked item...likewise if I am in the linked item, tap
> "Item Link" and go back to the origin. (Sort of like Shadow-Link for
> Todos, only Shadow would handle it all.

	A one way jump only, from clone to original but not vice
versa. (The body snatcher knows its a copy, but the original is blissfully
ignorant). We could make a slow operation to produce a list of clones
though, if we had to.

> Would be great to have a simple copy to file type link available just
> like todo links have now...and of course a sever link with delete
> entirely and leave in DB options available.

	You mean "send to file" sort of thing; yeah, it would be like
that. Link arrow, "send link to file" or the like. Link Manager
thereafter, just like a todo link, for operations on the link.

> I wouldn't propose recursive links (A links to B who links to C who
> links back to A).  Perhaps a linked flag so that if an item was created
> based on a link, you can't link from it.  I know this limits
> functionality, but I'm pretty sure it'd be a lot easier to code and deal
> with. 

	I'd allow it; cloning a clone is just like cloning the original,
however.

> Once we got this working, with checkbox and all, we could look forward
> to completion activates next task using Shadow to do it.  Check off item
> A, and item B automatically links over to the predefined file. 

	Yike ;) Thats very complex (check in list A wants an item ni list
B and list C to show up in list A?)

> So to recap, I want to get Shadow to link with itself just as it links
> with the ToDo database, but with a few enhancements such as copying tags
> over. 

	The trick, just like with linsk to ToDo, in the above scheme.. it
works perfect right? Until you edit via the desktop. Insert can of
worms. Changes to a cloned item on the desktop would do what? Clobber the
clone item, and then when you open that list on the handheld, the original
would take over. Options? Require all related files sync to desktop, and
require desktop to handle relations? Or when desktop changes an item,
severs the link to the original?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9011

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:08pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
And you picked a day when my mind is active to start this?

OK, I think we all know I dislike the tag manager.  Hate the 4 taps it
takes to add a tag from a non-recently used category.  We also know I
dislike not being able to multi-select tags, and dislike having the
selection of tags within the link manager.

I don't know if this is a dislike or not...but I've mentioned it...I
guess I'd say I dislike that Shadow can't link to itself the same way it
can to memos, datebook items, or todos.  Dislike is a bit strong for
this one...just doesn't make sense better describes it for me.

I've mentioned it before...but it always gets me when I go to add a
datebook link, and when I get there it tells me I don't have a date set.
Really frustrating as I don't set dates on my items, except those that
are date-specific (maybe 5% of them).  We've discussed adding a
date-picker into the link dialog...might be nicer to have Shadow
automatically pop up the DP instead of displaying an error.

Lately I've found the link arrow being tough to get to in hi-res mode.
The arrow is all the way to the right and tiny, so half the time I get %
complete instead of the link arrow. 

Anything else is really minor for me...nothing I'd say that I dislike,
more just enhancements I'd like to make.
9012

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:13pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Hey,

I don't like using tags; adding tags is cake, but actually using them
to filter on is a pain because there's no way to quickly and easily
filter on a tag or tagset without creating a filter geared
specifically to do that, with exactly those tags. The more tags one
has, the more filters one needs to add or modify.

I suggested some time ago that perhaps a quick-tag-filter, in the
sense of cut-copy-paste's hold-one, hold-many, might be the answer. 
Similar in function and appearance to the [C] drop-down, it would
allow selection of tags, and immediately filter on that tag. selecting
hold-many would allow each subsequent tag to be added to the filter,
until clear-tag-filter was selected. This would probably have to work
with a pre-defined filter, to allow one to specify a base filter and
then add tag-filterettes to it.

Even more thrilling would be to have a selection that allows one to
save the whole set to a filter, so you can select the base filter, add
a few tag-filters, and then save it as a whole new filter, perhaps
prompting with the filter-describe screen and a blank or default name,
so the user can define a name, hit OK, and be done with it.

-Tom

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
9013

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:21pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
> 	A one way jump only, from clone to original but not vice
> versa. (The body snatcher knows its a copy, but the original is
blissfully
> ignorant). We could make a slow operation to produce a list of clones
> though, if we had to.

I'd really like one clone tracked.  If I link item in list A to list B,
I want list A to know it has the clone in list B, since I performed the
link from list A. Likewise, list B would know if it had a link to list
C.

Don't need to know about all clones, just the one the item itself is
linked to...make sense?

> 	Yike ;) Thats very complex (check in list A wants an item ni
list
> B and list C to show up in list A?)

I'm thinking you enable the option in list A.  I check off the item in
list B, when I reopen list A it pushes out next actions to list B
automatically.  I would never get to a list C...so maybe I'm being too
limited. 

 
> 	The trick, just like with linsk to ToDo, in the above scheme..
it
> works perfect right? Until you edit via the desktop. Insert can of
> worms. Changes to a cloned item on the desktop would do what? Clobber
the
> clone item, and then when you open that list on the handheld, the
original
> would take over. Options? Require all related files sync to desktop,
and
> require desktop to handle relations? Or when desktop changes an item,
> severs the link to the original?

Because it's all within Shadow I'd vote for the desktop handling
relations.  It'd work just like the handheld, check in B, list A updates
when you save list B.  If the user has a desktop reg code within Shadow,
I'd require Sync to be checked in order for item-item linking to work. 

Some may hate that, so you could check for the existence of file A on
the desktop, if it isn't there, you can't change the item in list B.
Restrictive yes, but it makes sense.
9014

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:22pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Griff wrote:

> And you picked a day when my mind is active to start this?

	"Mistake" ;)

> OK, I think we all know I dislike the tag manager.  Hate the 4 taps it

	Reserved for other thread :)

> guess I'd say I dislike that Shadow can't link to itself the same way it

	Reserved for other thread also :)

> I've mentioned it before...but it always gets me when I go to add a
> datebook link, and when I get there it tells me I don't have a date
> set. Really frustrating as I don't set dates on my items, except those
> that are date-specific (maybe 5% of them).  We've discussed adding a
> date-picker into the link dialog...might be nicer to have Shadow
> automatically pop up the DP instead of displaying an error.

	Will be adding soon.

> Lately I've found the link arrow being tough to get to in hi-res mode.
> The arrow is all the way to the right and tiny, so half the time I get
> % complete instead of the link arrow.

	Hmm.

> Anything else is really minor for me...nothing I'd say that I dislike,
> more just enhancements I'd like to make.

	yeah; I think we've done okay when most of our chatter is about
things we want better rather than things we hate (ie: Go to any operating
system forum :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9015

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, tsuchy <tsuchy@y...> wrote:

> sense of cut-copy-paste's hold-one, hold-many, might be the answer.  
> Similar in function and appearance to the [C] drop-down, it would
> allow selection of tags, and immediately filter on that tag. selecting
> hold-many would allow each subsequent tag to be added to the filter,
> until clear-tag-filter was selected. This would probably have to work
> with a pre-defined filter, to allow one to specify a base filter and
> then add tag-filterettes to it.

	I think you've coined "filterettes"!

	Hmm. Doign a filter *and* a instant-tag-filter could be
troublesome; it is all gheared towards one filter at a time. (Especially
on older units where filter speed is relevent, as is filter ram used up
for the filter and its little state machine).

	My plan was udner the [F] to have a "Quick Filter" type
option; pick it, then get a tag selector of some sort, and tap the tags to
show (or "All").

	Tap, Tap, Check, Check, Check, Go.

	Being smart, maybe it woudl list only tags you used in this
list.. assuming you used only a half dozen different tags, it'd be pretty
slick.

> Even more thrilling would be to have a selection that allows one to
> save the whole set to a filter, so you can select the base filter, add
> a few tag-filters, and then save it as a whole new filter, perhaps
> prompting with the filter-describe screen and a blank or default name,
> so the user can define a name, hit OK, and be done with it.

	Thats interesting. "Save quick filter" and "Merge quick
filter". Yeeeeep.

		jeff
9016

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:28pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
> 
> > And you picked a day when my mind is active to start this?
> 
> 	"Mistake" ;)

LOL

> 
> > I've mentioned it before...but it always gets me when I go to add a
> > datebook link, and when I get there it tells me I don't have a date
> > set. Really frustrating as I don't set dates on my items, except
those
> > that are date-specific (maybe 5% of them).  We've discussed adding a
> > date-picker into the link dialog...might be nicer to have Shadow
> > automatically pop up the DP instead of displaying an error.
> 
> 	Will be adding soon.

YAY!

> 
> > Lately I've found the link arrow being tough to get to in hi-res
mode.
> > The arrow is all the way to the right and tiny, so half the time I
get
> > % complete instead of the link arrow.
> 
> 	Hmm.
> 

I can't think of a good fix either...maybe make the icon larger...or how
about just the column?  If the column were a bit larger I could tap
anywhere within to get to the link arrow that'd be cool.

I just don't see moving it elsewhere, makes too much sense having at the
right like that.
9017

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:29pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Griff wrote:

> > 	A one way jump only, from clone to original but not vice
> > versa. (The body snatcher knows its a copy, but the original is
> blissfully
> > ignorant). We could make a slow operation to produce a list of clones
> > though, if we had to.
> 
> I'd really like one clone tracked.  If I link item in list A to list B,
> I want list A to know it has the clone in list B, since I performed the
> link from list A. Likewise, list B would know if it had a link to list
> C.
> 
> Don't need to know about all clones, just the one the item itself is
> linked to...make sense?

	Clone from list A to list B. Clone from list A to list C.

	Then what?

	Thats why I say original item cannot know about its clones, but
the clones can now about the original.

> > 	Yike ;) Thats very complex (check in list A wants an item ni
> list
> > B and list C to show up in list A?)
> 
> I'm thinking you enable the option in list A.  I check off the item in
> list B, when I reopen list A it pushes out next actions to list B
> automatically.  I would never get to a list C...so maybe I'm being too
> limited. 

	Havnig automatic pushing of items from one list to another could
be evil, but we can burn that bridge when we get to it.

> > 	The trick, just like with linsk to ToDo, in the above scheme..
> it
> > works perfect right? Until you edit via the desktop. Insert can of
> > worms. Changes to a cloned item on the desktop would do what? Clobber
> the
> > clone item, and then when you open that list on the handheld, the
> original
> > would take over. Options? Require all related files sync to desktop,
> and
> > require desktop to handle relations? Or when desktop changes an item,
> > severs the link to the original?
> 
> Because it's all within Shadow I'd vote for the desktop handling
> relations.  It'd work just like the handheld, check in B, list A updates
> when you save list B.  If the user has a desktop reg code within Shadow,
> I'd require Sync to be checked in order for item-item linking to work. 

	Of course, to make that work I'd ahve to remove the Sync checkbox
entirely and presume it to be always on all the time. Can't rely onpeople
leaving it well enough alone in this sort of case where data would get
weird.

> Some may hate that, so you could check for the existence of file A on
> the desktop, if it isn't there, you can't change the item in list B.
> Restrictive yes, but it makes sense.

	I suppose :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9018

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:41pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
> 
> 	Clone from list A to list B. Clone from list A to list C.
> 
> 	Then what?
> 
> 	Thats why I say original item cannot know about its clones, but
> the clones can now about the original.

Hmm, I just wasn't thinking about item in list A having two clones of
itself.  Ideally it would know about both of it's clones an allow you to
jump to either.  Since it is defining it's clones, it should be able to
track them. 

Suppose A links to B who then links to C.

A should know about B, and B should know about A.  B Should also know
about C, but C should only know about B. 

I'd want to be able to look at Project Bug Jeff, go to the item, Pester
about links, tap the link arrow and go to the item in the other file so
I could set context via tag. 

I'd want this, and I think it's the way it should work, but I could
certainly get around it by editing the tag in the original file and
letting it copy over to it's links.

> 
> 	Havnig automatic pushing of items from one list to another could
> be evil, but we can burn that bridge when we get to it.

We'll get Kevin in on it then too ;-)

> 
> 	Of course, to make that work I'd ahve to remove the Sync
checkbox
> entirely and presume it to be always on all the time. Can't rely
onpeople
> leaving it well enough alone in this sort of case where data would get
> weird.
> 

Really I'd have another box that enables item-item linking, if checked
sync is forced on and cannot change.
9019

From: ::.jay.west  <email@j...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:43pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
"Hate" is such a strong word. I find it hard to find fault in this app as it
has helped me immeasurably. Things I find to be a pain with Shadow:

- undated todos sorting to the top of a list. This was discussed a bit last
week. 

- no priority items sorting to the top. This just doesn't make sense?

- unable to do a Palm standard Phone Lookup in the edit screens.

- seems to me "Send Clip to File" should function as "move" clip to file and
not "copy" clip to file. Or it should be an option.

- not being able to specify a Sort or Highlight in a Filter but I understand
that this is coming.

- not being able to filter on a Parent tag only. For example: "parent-tag
matches tag Active"

- not being able to categorize Filters. I have along list of filters and
have to go scrolling every time I apply one. It would be nice to be able to
create sub-menus like "Tag Filters", "Status Filters", "Staff Filters"

Thanks for asking,

j.




> From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Reply-To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:52:15 -0500 (EST)
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> 
> 
> Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>
9020

From: Ken Gordon  <KenGordon@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:54pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Besides the long route to adding a tag, which other have mentioned, I 
miss being able to set the time of an item that I intend to link to the 
datebook. The absence of a time picker means you need to link the item, 
then go to the datebook app to set the time.

On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 11:52 , Jeff Mitchell wrote:

>  but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
Ken Gordon
9021

From: Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:57pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Ken Gordon wrote:

> Besides the long route to adding a tag, which other have mentioned, I
> miss being able to set the time of an item that I intend to link to the
> datebook. The absence of a time picker means you need to link the item,
> then go to the datebook app to set the time.

Yeah, this is an annoyance for me too; one of the problems I
frequently encounter.

I'm with most other people: I'm impressed with what's already
there, so can't bring myself to hate anything.


-- 
Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>  http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/
"If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are
opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be
justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky
9022

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:06pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Griff wrote:

> > 	Clone from list A to list B. Clone from list A to list C.
> > 
> > 	Then what?
> > 
> > 	Thats why I say original item cannot know about its clones, but
> > the clones can now about the original.
> 
> Hmm, I just wasn't thinking about item in list A having two clones of
> itself.  Ideally it would know about both of it's clones an allow you to
> jump to either.  Since it is defining it's clones, it should be able to
> track them. 

	It could, but woudl get very ugly. ie: What if you make (say) 10
clones of an item, for each of 10 lists. (Yes, developers have to worry
abotu extremes like this, or even 100 clones or more..). What if you did
this for each of 20 items in a list? Suddenly we've got a lot of data and
everythign slows down :)

	But consider..

	Link from list A to List B and List C. (two clones)

	In List B you clone the item to List D. That means sending an item
to list D and then adding the details to List A. We're suddenly getting
into lots of work :)

	It is possible for the original to know about its clones, but it
worries me about resources.

> Suppose A links to B who then links to C.
> 
> A should know about B, and B should know about A.  B Should also know
> about C, but C should only know about B. 

	I wouldn't think so, but this is implementation detail. I can
worry about it later.

> I'd want to be able to look at Project Bug Jeff, go to the item, Pester
> about links, tap the link arrow and go to the item in the other file so
> I could set context via tag. 

	I suppose I could have a Find Clones operation that could be
summonable, but woudl be invoked when yuo tap on a original
(source) item. It could know that *a* clone (or clones) has been made at
some time, and then Linmk Arrow -> Find Clones, which could return 0 or
more matches. (I could keep a clone-count, too, but thats similar to
above.. where addni clones means always contacting the original)

> Really I'd have another box that enables item-item linking, if checked
> sync is forced on and cannot change. 

	True enough. Or ratehr, the first time you enable item to item
link, it woudl alert you with a dialo saying "continue" or "damn Griff" ;)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9023

From: Jacob Share  <jacob@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:09pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
I don't hate any of it, but there are things I dislike :)
  1.. Not being able to tell what's linked at a glance (we once discussed changing the link icon depending on the links - what happened there?)
  2.. Not being able to cross-link (between Shadow files)
  3.. Not being able to change column sizes on the fly
  4.. Menus that take up the entire screen and then some, on my Visor Prism although this shouldn't be considered a complaint of feature-bloat
  5.. Filter by color
Nothing major :)

Jacob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:52 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)



        Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..

        Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
  surround Shadow Plan?

        We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
  we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
  *dislike*? If anything?

              jeff

  --
  "Have you played Atari today?"


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9024

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:09pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, ::.jay.west wrote:

> "Hate" is such a strong word. I find it hard to find fault in this app as it
> has helped me immeasurably. Things I find to be a pain with Shadow:
> 
> - undated todos sorting to the top of a list. This was discussed a bit last
> week. 
> 
> - no priority items sorting to the top. This just doesn't make sense?

	It makes sense the same way that dates do --

	Sort ascending means from lowest to highest. "nil" is the ultimate
in lowest :)

> - unable to do a Palm standard Phone Lookup in the edit screens.

	Bugs in Palm OS.

> - seems to me "Send Clip to File" should function as "move" clip to
> file and not "copy" clip to file. Or it should be an option.

	It is an option; you can hit Send, and then hit Clear ;)

	The rational is that having two operations is too much; having one
and it being Move is too restrictive (what if you want to copy?). And
since copy can be a move with a clear following it.. it is most flexible.
We always work ni terms of what is most flexible and re-usable :)

> - not being able to specify a Sort or Highlight in a Filter but I
> understand that this is coming.

	Rather, benig able to use a filter in a Hilight you mean? Sort has
nothign to do with filtering.

> - not being able to filter on a Parent tag only. For example: "parent-tag
> matches tag Active"

	Trying to figure out a better way of doign what you want; ie: Your
goal is to make filters pick children items. So perhaps creating items
shoudl get copies of the tags of their parent items by default. Then it
woudl work for new items. (It woudl just be a drag for existing old items
before this feature). Thoughts?

> - not being able to categorize Filters. I have along list of filters
> and have to go scrolling every time I apply one. It would be nice to
> be able to create sub-menus like "Tag Filters", "Status Filters",
> "Staff Filters"

	Maybe. How many you got, anyway?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9025

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:10pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Ken Gordon wrote:

> Besides the long route to adding a tag, which other have mentioned, I
> miss being able to set the time of an item that I intend to link to
> the datebook. The absence of a time picker means you need to link the
> item, then go to the datebook app to set the time.

	Going in soon.

		jeff

> 
> On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 11:52 , Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 
> >  but what do you
> > *dislike*? If anything?
> Ken Gordon
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9026

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:13pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
> 
> 	It could, but woudl get very ugly. ie: What if you make (say) 10
> clones of an item, for each of 10 lists. (Yes, developers have to
worry
> abotu extremes like this, or even 100 clones or more..). What if you
did
> this for each of 20 items in a list? Suddenly we've got a lot of data
and
> everythign slows down :)
> 
> 	But consider..
> 
> 	Link from list A to List B and List C. (two clones)
> 
> 	In List B you clone the item to List D. That means sending an
item
> to list D and then adding the details to List A. We're suddenly
getting
> into lots of work :)
> 

Consider if we have 10 clones, when you change the item in List K, and
save it, we'd have to update lists A-J with the current proposal of
updating on save...I just don't think many will have to links...but it
is something to consider.

I don't want List A to know about List D.  I would only want it to know
about clones it made, B and C. 

Even with A not knowing about it's clones, in this case, you update list
D, which would update list B, correct?  What happens with lists C and A?
No update?

> 
> > Really I'd have another box that enables item-item linking, if
checked
> > sync is forced on and cannot change.
> 
> 	True enough. Or ratehr, the first time you enable item to item
> link, it woudl alert you with a dialo saying "continue" or "damn
Griff" ;)
> 

I figured Damn Griff was one of your projects <LOL>.
9027

From: Ken Stuart  <kstuart@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:29pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:52:15 -0500 (EST), Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:

>
>	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
>
>	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
>surround Shadow Plan?
>
>	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
>we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
>*dislike*? If anything?
>
>		jeff

Number One is how slow it loads a long list -- and I'm using a 66mhz processor,
which is at least twice as fast as the average.


--
Cheers,

Ken
kstuart@e...
9028

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:32pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Jacob Share wrote:

> I don't hate any of it, but there are things I dislike :)

>   1.. Not being able to tell what's linked at a glance (we once
> discussed changing the link icon depending on the links - what
> happened there?)

	I think OS5 happened :)

>   2.. Not being able to cross-link (between Shadow files)

	Will probably come.

>   3.. Not being able to change column sizes on the fly

	I'll likely make the columns adjst themselves to fit the displayed
data (ie; Handle font size changes better). But I'm not sure dynamic
sizing is needed.

>   4.. Menus that take up the entire screen and then some, on my Visor
> Prism although this shouldn't be considered a complaint of
> feature-bloat

	All menu items are visible on all units. Just the border gets
clipped. A necessary evil since we can't change the font for menus ;)

	You can't count how man times I've thought abotu writing my own
menu system ;) I might do it yet.

>   5.. Filter by color

	you mean pick items to show based on colour override? Thats a
first :)

		jeff

> Nothing major :)
> 
> Jacob
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jeff Mitchell 
>   To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:52 PM
>   Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> 
> 
> 
>         Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
>         Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
>   surround Shadow Plan?
> 
>         We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
>   we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
>   *dislike*? If anything?
> 
>               jeff
> 
>   --
>   "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9029

From: Frederick G. Turner  <fred@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:37pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
Okay, I don't hate anything, but something that still bugs me, and comes
up every so often in this forum is that we can't make tasks become
active when the previous one is completed within a given parent (in
other words, tasks that become sequentially activated as you do the
precursor tasks). 

Seems like something relatively obvious and necessary for project
management and GTD implementations, and, despite this forum's efforts to
the contrary ;), not particularly difficult to implement.

Saludos,
Fred. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:52 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> 
> 
> 
> 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan 
> or surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign 
> we've got. So we talk about what we miss or what needs to 
> change.. but what do you *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>
9030

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:34pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Ken Stuart wrote:

> >	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> >
> >	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> >surround Shadow Plan?
> >
> >	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
> >we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> >*dislike*? If anything?
> 
> Number One is how slow it loads a long list -- and I'm using a 66mhz
> processor, which is at least twice as fast as the average.

	How many items in the list? Do most have attached notes? A lot of
links?

	ie: The biggest speed hit is having a tonne of links.

	The next speed hit is a large number of notes relative to the
number of items.

	Lastly is the size. Several hundred items can slow it down a
touch; a 66MHz unit shouldn't notice until you have many hundred.. if it
does, probably the above kicking in.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9031

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:55pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Frederick G. Turner wrote:

> Okay, I don't hate anything, but something that still bugs me, and comes
> up every so often in this forum is that we can't make tasks become
> active when the previous one is completed within a given parent (in
> other words, tasks that become sequentially activated as you do the
> precursor tasks). 
> 
> Seems like something relatively obvious and necessary for project
> management and GTD implementations, and, despite this forum's efforts to
> the contrary ;), not particularly difficult to implement.

	See discussion from a week or two back; not huge to implement, but
fiddly to get just right for everyone :) Its never been high on my
priority list, but if theres a renewed burst of interest I'll see about
putting it on my list.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9032

From: alwaysenuf alwaysenuf@y...  <alwaysenuf@y...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:01pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
My big ones are--

I hate not being able to export a filtered view--to memo.  Having the 
rest of the list go with it is unnnerving... and frustrating.  If i 
could export a filtered list, my (job required) reporting would be a 
breeze!
also, 
I don't know of an easy way to manage custom filters... (it would be 
nice if they sorted alphabetically or something!)

Other than that, I love shadow....Truth be told, these two features 
(or lack thereof) make it very difficult to justify  keeping 
shadow... their absence  makes me use other apps for my job... BUt I 
Really love shadow and the way you support it, Jeff, so I keep it, 
hoping (but mostly knowing) that some day... my whims will hit the 
top of the list...justifying my loyalty... 
thanks for a great product!
9033

From: Curtis Clifton  <cclifton@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:08pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 785

 
Jeff,

On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 01:29  PM, Jeff wrote:

> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
>

Here's my short-list:

- Icon and column sizing does not respect large fonts. To wit, turn on 
priority bubbles, check circles, title bar, narrow tag column, and 
target date column, then set a font size >= 16 point in HiRes mode on 
your T/T.  The icons are illegible and the tag text lands in the middle 
of the date text.  Title bar is mostly illegible.

- Filters are not general enough.  I want general boolean expressions 
in filters.  The 'and-ing' of n conditions, at most three of which are 
'or-ings' of m conditions each isn't flexible enough to easily express 
many of the filters I use.  Though it is a challenging little exercise 
to write down the filter I want on paper and manipulate the expression 
until it fits into Shadow's format.

- I would echo the gripe about filtering on tags, and extend it to 
dates.  What I would like is  to be able to add filter items like "Tag 
Association equals 'prompt me later'" and "Target Date less than 
'prompt me later'".  When I apply such a filter, Shadow would display 
the appropriate picker screen.  (And maybe even several picker screens, 
one for each 'prompt me later' filter item.)

- No Mac OS X beta yet. ;-)  I know, I know.  D%*med toolkit.

-- Curt
9034

From: bombrsx4me scooperrider@s...  <scooperrider@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:10pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
My biggest complaint would have to be the expand / collapse arrow 
being to small to hit with the stylus in hi-res mode. I hit it 
probably 1 in every 10 tries. How does everyone else expand / 
collapse? I am just suprised I don't see more complaints on this. It 
has actually kept me from using shadow as often as I would like. Is 
there a way to tap on the line and expand?

thanks

Sean
9035

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:14pm
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
I know we've spent some time dealing with item-item linking ideas today.
Any opinions on changing the tag manager/selection process?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shadow-discuss/message/9006
9036

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:26pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 785

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Curtis Clifton wrote:

> - Icon and column sizing does not respect large fonts. To wit, turn on 
> priority bubbles, check circles, title bar, narrow tag column, and 
> target date column, then set a font size >= 16 point in HiRes mode on 
> your T/T.  The icons are illegible and the tag text lands in the middle 
> of the date text.  Title bar is mostly illegible.

	On my list.

> - Filters are not general enough.  I want general boolean expressions 
> in filters.  The 'and-ing' of n conditions, at most three of which are 
> 'or-ings' of m conditions each isn't flexible enough to easily express 
> many of the filters I use.  Though it is a challenging little exercise 
> to write down the filter I want on paper and manipulate the expression 
> until it fits into Shadow's format.

	Durn, I went and raised the bar and someone goes and raises it
higher ;)

	Not likely for awhile though.. too many other thigns we need to
polish first.

> - I would echo the gripe about filtering on tags, and extend it to
> dates.  What I would like is to be able to add filter items like "Tag
> Association equals 'prompt me later'" and "Target Date less than
> 'prompt me later'".  When I apply such a filter, Shadow would display
> the appropriate picker screen.  (And maybe even several picker
> screens, one for each 'prompt me later' filter item.)

	When would the pickers come up? When you open the list?

> - No Mac OS X beta yet. ;-)  I know, I know.  D%*med toolkit.

	Yeah; you can have it if you want date picker to be broken :)

		jeff
9037

From: ::.jay.west  <email@j...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:47pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
>> - not being able to specify a Sort or Highlight in a Filter but I
>> understand that this is coming.
> 
> Rather, benig able to use a filter in a Hilight you mean? Sort has
> nothign to do with filtering.

I guess what I was referring to is that if you could create a custom Sort,
name it and then include it within a View like you can with Filters. So
applying a View could change the Filter and the Sort. Same could go for
the Highlight rules.



>> - not being able to filter on a Parent tag only. For example: "parent-tag
>> matches tag Active"
> 
> Trying to figure out a better way of doign what you want; ie: Your
> goal is to make filters pick children items. So perhaps creating items
> shoudl get copies of the tags of their parent items by default. Then it
> woudl work for new items. (It woudl just be a drag for existing old items
> before this feature). Thoughts?

Not exactly what I was thinking. I'm using Shadow to list my multi-step
ToDos - with the project name at level 1, and the tasks at lower levels.  I
give each top level item a tag to show its status (active, on hold, pending,
cancelled). Tasks have no tags.

Project Name 1 (tag=Active)
  -- Task A (checked)
  -- Task B (unchecked)
Project Name 2 (tag=On Hold)
  -- Task A (unchecked)

I'd like to define a filter to show the uncompleted tasks of Active
Projects (parents) only, so I only get:

Project Name 1 (tag=Active)
  -- Task B (unchecked)

 

>> - not being able to categorize Filters. I have along list of filters
>> and have to go scrolling every time I apply one. It would be nice to
>> be able to create sub-menus like "Tag Filters", "Status Filters",
>> "Staff Filters"
> 
> Maybe. How many you got, anyway?

My apologies, I meant Views not Filters. I have about 25 Views like:
- tasks tagged for Steve
- tasks tagged for Joe
- tasks due this week
- tasks due next week
- tasks completed last week
- things to buy at Home Depot
- things to buy at WalMart

I was just thinking it would be nice to have a category level to Views
similar to Tags so you could group similar Views together like "Status
Views", "Staff Views", "Store Views".



j.
9038

From: CAH Hotmail  <charlepp@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Shortcut is Z and was added in 2.7. Works like a charm as long as you're not in VG mode....
Chris
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: bombrsx4me <scooperrider@s...> 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 4:10 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: What do you hate? :)


  My biggest complaint would have to be the expand / collapse arrow 
  being to small to hit with the stylus in hi-res mode. I hit it 
  probably 1 in every 10 tries. How does everyone else expand / 
  collapse? I am just suprised I don't see more complaints on this. It 
  has actually kept me from using shadow as often as I would like. Is 
  there a way to tap on the line and expand?

  thanks

  Sean


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9039

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:07pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, ::.jay.west wrote:

> 
> >> - not being able to specify a Sort or Highlight in a Filter but I
> >> understand that this is coming.
> > 
> > Rather, benig able to use a filter in a Hilight you mean? Sort has
> > nothign to do with filtering.
> 
> I guess what I was referring to is that if you could create a custom Sort,
> name it and then include it within a View like you can with Filters. So
> applying a View could change the Filter and the Sort. Same could go for
> the Highlight rules.

	So not somethign you dislike, something you wish you had ;)

> >> - not being able to filter on a Parent tag only. For example: "parent-tag
> >> matches tag Active"
> > 
> > Trying to figure out a better way of doign what you want; ie: Your
> > goal is to make filters pick children items. So perhaps creating items
> > shoudl get copies of the tags of their parent items by default. Then it
> > woudl work for new items. (It woudl just be a drag for existing old items
> > before this feature). Thoughts?
> 
> Not exactly what I was thinking. I'm using Shadow to list my multi-step
> ToDos - with the project name at level 1, and the tasks at lower levels.  I
> give each top level item a tag to show its status (active, on hold, pending,
> cancelled). Tasks have no tags.
> 
> Project Name 1 (tag=Active)
>   -- Task A (checked)
>   -- Task B (unchecked)
> Project Name 2 (tag=On Hold)
>   -- Task A (unchecked)
> 
> I'd like to define a filter to show the uncompleted tasks of Active
> Projects (parents) only, so I only get:
> 
> Project Name 1 (tag=Active)
>   -- Task B (unchecked)

	Imagine if when you added "Task A" (the first one) it
automatically got "tag=Active". It would work the way you expect.

	The question is.. isthat the correct way to doit?

	A tough one.

> I was just thinking it would be nice to have a category level to Views
> similar to Tags so you could group similar Views together like "Status
> Views", "Staff Views", "Store Views".

	Hmm. I think I'd like to focus on other stuff first, but noted.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9040

From: Frank auf der Springe  <mbox@i...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:31pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
I dislike that the indentions are to big - but I don't want to
suppress indent entirely...

--
Regards,
Frank
9041

From: vjornes vjornes@y...  <vjornes@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 0:43am
Subject: Re: Bonsai Export to XML in Shadow : I'll try to make it but...

 
> My last issue is with special characters used by megawiki (you know
this special "point" 
> ;-)) If there is one, the shadow desktop parsing fail. I read that
you convert those char to 
> special tags... do you have a utility to do the extraction
automatically? 

I've managed to get the Megawiki dot (Alt-0183) into Shadow XML and
shadow handled it ok - but the file had to be in ISO (8559-1 if I
recall - the one on the web site anyway).  UTF-8 format didn't work.
9042

From: Doug  <doug@m...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:41am
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
I know Jeff thinks all we need is to add the tag column to all our list views and then we will have all the tag management needs met. I don't have a hi-res device that I can just add columns, and I do a lot of linking (although the todo linking won't be needed once we have the Viewer!).
So all I want is for the current tag tab in the link manager to be sticky, to be able to choose categories like we already can on the address tab, and to be able to choose multiple tags in the one operation... all there in the link manager at the same time as I am adding the todo, address (multiple addresses too, please), date and file (and file item!) links.
I know that once we get a couple of other bits and pieces in place (desktop first, please) that I will want to change tags as I go, etc and so changes in the seperate tag manager may become more important. But first I need the tag manager within the link manager to be drastically improved. Please, please, please...
Thanks
Doug

     ----- Original message ---------------------------------------->
     From: Griff <lists@t...>
     To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
     Received: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:14:26 -0600
     Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Tag suggestion

I know we've spent some time dealing with item-item linking ideas today.
Any opinions on changing the tag manager/selection process?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shadow-discuss/message/9006



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9043

From: Ken Stuart  <kstuart@e...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:05am
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:34:39 -0500 (EST), Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Ken Stuart wrote:
>
>> >	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
>> >
>> >	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
>> >surround Shadow Plan?
>> >
>> >	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
>> >we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
>> >*dislike*? If anything?
>> 
>> Number One is how slow it loads a long list -- and I'm using a 66mhz
>> processor, which is at least twice as fast as the average.
>
>	How many items in the list? Do most have attached notes? A lot of
>links?
>
>	ie: The biggest speed hit is having a tonne of links.
>
>	The next speed hit is a large number of notes relative to the
>number of items.
>
>	Lastly is the size. Several hundred items can slow it down a
>touch; a 66MHz unit shouldn't notice until you have many hundred.. if it
>does, probably the above kicking in.

471 items, all linked to ToDo, only one or two notes total.

I understand what is slower or faster in Shadow, but you asked for what is the
biggest annoyance. :-)

Specifically, if I press the hardware button for Shadow, and then press a
hardware button for another app, and then go back to Shadow, and then go to a
third app, and then go back to Shadow, each time, the display of the screen on
Shadow takes significantly longer than any other app.

Some observations:

- Other apps opening a database of several hundred items don't take as long as
Shadow.    I realize this is probably due to unique things that Shadow needs to
do, but there it is.

- If I use a filter to restrict the display to only a few dozen items, it still
takes as long.

- If I go back and forth to Shadow, without ever even tapping once in Shadow,
it still takes as long.

Just speculating (obviously I have no idea how you have implemented things) -
perhaps writing a temporary file in RAM could help Shadow to start faster,
especially when nothing has changed?   When Shadow was first begun, conserving
memory space was the number one priority in the Palm world.  Now with 128
megabyte memory cards available for all platforms for under $40 when "on sale",
as well as bigger RAM, memory space is available if it means increased
functionality.   And such uses could be turned on by a preference option, so
that older devices could still conserve memory space.

Also, I noticed that Plucker will take awhile to open large files, BUT it will
first display the first screen, so that the user can look at that while it is
doing the rest.   If this is possible in Shadow, that would be a big help,
because 90% of the time, I want to see what is in the first screen, ie my top
priority tasks.


--
Cheers,

Ken
kstuart@e...
9044

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:12am
Subject: Re: Tag suggestion

 
but isn't the future for all these devices hi resolution?  and there are some cheap hi res devices on ebay now days if money is a factor.  just like analog cable is forced out in about 5-7 years.  so why do anything extra with the limited time and extraneous code to support non-hi res requests when the limited resources and space can be spent doing things for the technology we will all soon have...!  at least Jeff still offers a non hi res solution unlike some of the new stuff coming out now days that is made for hi res only or for OS5 only!   just a thought.
Kevin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doug 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 5:41 PM
  Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Tag suggestion


  I know Jeff thinks all we need is to add the tag column to all our list views and then we will have all the tag management needs met. I don't have a hi-res device that I can just add columns, and I do a lot of linking (although the todo linking won't be needed once we have the Viewer!).
  So all I want is for the current tag tab in the link manager to be sticky, to be able to choose categories like we already can on the address tab, and to be able to choose multiple tags in the one operation... all there in the link manager at the same time as I am adding the todo, address (multiple addresses too, please), date and file (and file item!) links.
  I know that once we get a couple of other bits and pieces in place (desktop first, please) that I will want to change tags as I go, etc and so changes in the seperate tag manager may become more important. But first I need the tag manager within the link manager to be drastically improved. Please, please, please...
  Thanks
  Doug



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9045

From: tanker_bob rmattes@c...  <rmattes@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:17am
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Jeff,

The most annoying thing is the number of taps it takes to add a tag 
to a new entry--six, and eight for an existing entry!  Almost more 
effort than they're worth.

Regards,
Tanker Bob
http://home.cfl.rr.com/rmattes/palmframe.htm
Global moderator at http://www.pdaavenue.com/

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
wrote:
> 
> 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've 
got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do 
you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
9046

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:23am
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
i was waiting a couple weeks to bring it up again Jeff, and thus now i will chime in again with my support for this idea.  as i recall only a couple people went on about how difficult this would be, but they also wanted mac and/or desktop NOW!  ; )  heard more positive comments overall in favor, and think you could draw some for forums like GTD if something like that was implemented, just the simple idea, not a complicated one for now.  it could even be only for lists that have one level of children under parents...or only apply to completion of the first child level.  just simple stuff!!!
thanks again.
Kevin
p.s.  i mention simple, as this will likely be used by most for one type of list if used...a parent with children tasks under it to be completed...instead of a child of a child, one could merely use this type of list for just that, one level deep to keep it simple and easy for a quick implementation!  just a thought.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:55 PM
  Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)


  On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Frederick G. Turner wrote:

  > Okay, I don't hate anything, but something that still bugs me, and comes
  > up every so often in this forum is that we can't make tasks become
  > active when the previous one is completed within a given parent (in
  > other words, tasks that become sequentially activated as you do the
  > precursor tasks). 
  > 
  > Seems like something relatively obvious and necessary for project
  > management and GTD implementations, and, despite this forum's efforts to
  > the contrary ;), not particularly difficult to implement.

        See discussion from a week or two back; not huge to implement, but
  fiddly to get just right for everyone :) Its never been high on my
  priority list, but if theres a renewed burst of interest I'll see about
  putting it on my list.

              jeff

  --
  "Have you played Atari today?"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9047

From: Curtis Clifton  <cclifton@a...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:30am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 786

 
Jeff,

On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 07:42  PM, Jeff wrote:

>> - I would echo the gripe about filtering on tags, and extend it to
>> dates.  What I would like is to be able to add filter items like "Tag
>> Association equals 'prompt me later'" and "Target Date less than
>> 'prompt me later'".  When I apply such a filter, Shadow would display
>> the appropriate picker screen.  (And maybe even several picker
>> screens, one for each 'prompt me later' filter item.)
>
> 	When would the pickers come up? When you open the list?
>
>

I'm not sure.  I was thinking when you first applied the filter.  On 
subsequent opens it would not prompt, not would it prompt if you remove 
the filter and reapplied it.  If you want to change your picks you 
would go to the filter manager, pick the filter, and tap apply, then 
the pickers would come up.  Some old PC or Mac (or Apple II) 
application that I used had a similar reporting mechanism.  Hmm, maybe 
an old project management program.

-- Curt
9048

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:59am
Subject: RE: Tag suggestion

 
Regardless of tag column or not, something has to be done to allow
multi-select of tags.  The current system is too tap intensive...and not
intuitive.  

If we stuck with the link manager way of adding tags, making
multi-select and sticky-tab would be the minimum it'd take to make it a
bit more intuitive.  Of course, I'm pushing for a TM rewrite, but we'll
see how that's received.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Giberson [mailto:kevin@g...]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:12 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Tag suggestion
> 
> but isn't the future for all these devices hi resolution?  and there
are
> some cheap hi res devices on ebay now days if money is a factor.  just
> like analog cable is forced out in about 5-7 years.  so why do
anything
> extra with the limited time and extraneous code to support non-hi res
> requests when the limited resources and space can be spent doing
things
> for the technology we will all soon have...!  at least Jeff still
offers a
> non hi res solution unlike some of the new stuff coming out now days
that
> is made for hi res only or for OS5 only!   just a thought.
> Kevin
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Doug
>   To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 5:41 PM
>   Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Tag suggestion
> 
> 
>   I know Jeff thinks all we need is to add the tag column to all our
list
> views and then we will have all the tag management needs met. I don't
have
> a hi-res device that I can just add columns, and I do a lot of linking
> (although the todo linking won't be needed once we have the Viewer!).
>   So all I want is for the current tag tab in the link manager to be
> sticky, to be able to choose categories like we already can on the
address
> tab, and to be able to choose multiple tags in the one operation...
all
> there in the link manager at the same time as I am adding the todo,
> address (multiple addresses too, please), date and file (and file
item!)
> links.
>   I know that once we get a couple of other bits and pieces in place
> (desktop first, please) that I will want to change tags as I go, etc
and
> so changes in the seperate tag manager may become more important. But
> first I need the tag manager within the link manager to be drastically
> improved. Please, please, please...
>   Thanks
>   Doug
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>
9049

From: Ken Latham clatham1@t...  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:15am
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> 
> 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

Ok, pet annoyance...  the trimming that happens to item descriptions
when you have "Suppress title word wrap" turned on!

I *would* like to use it a lot, since I have the "antique" 16 grey
low-res screen using the tinyest font I can stand.  ... Getting more
items on my screen is really nice.

Example:

Task name is "SCR #3733 ndisbord.ini change needed for dual protocol
USM_46XX"

(Now while I know *no one* knows what that means, except me, it is, in
fact, a *real* taks name)

It is one level deep, with indenting on, and level arrows (~ 3-4 chars
from left margin)

My settings are days till due, progress bar, link arrow and suppress
note icon.

I estimate that there is room for 22 characters (aside from the
indent) in the font that I use... Helvetica 9.

This should be something close to "SCR #3733 ndisbord.ini"

Instead I get ...

"SCR #3733 ..."

Thanks, really... I'm so good with the issue numbers... this tells me
*everything* I need to know!  (can you taste the sarcasm?)

I would really rather you did away with the *useless* three little
dots and at least gave me "ndisbord.i" if that's all that will fit!

(1) I *know* I've got wrap suppressed.
(2) the dots do *not* help me in *any* way
(3) I know its not much more text, but those few characters make *all*
the difference.

...ok, now that I have *that* off my chest, I feel *much* better! :)


Ken

Kyocera 6035, SP 2.7.1
9050

From: ROYLE Anthony  <anthony.royle@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:56am
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
Things that bug me a bit are:

1. Last tag category being forgotten when you leave shadow, then come back

2. Expand and checkbox too small in hi-res mode

3. Having to remind Jeff every 2 weeks about a 2nd text field ;-)

4. Start/Finish Dates not available as columns


Anthony Royle



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 January 2003 5:52
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> 
> 
> 
> 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign 
> we've got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>
9051

From: Rafael Barbera  <rbarberac@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 9:26am
Subject: RE: List templates

 
Hello Jeff,

> > * Can I save this as a template? I haven't found anything on the manual
> > about this.
>
> 	I look at every list as a template in the file selection screen
> you can use "Duplicate" to copy any list. Some people crete a category
> called Templates and fill it up full of empty useful list layouts, and
> then use Duplciate to copy them for their real lists.

But if you have "custimized" the list type of some levels (as in my
example), you should save the "template" with data to retain the format
information isn't it?

>
> > * When I create a new top level entry it have the same
> atributes that its
> > sibiling (I have configured ShadwoP to this), but when I put a childern
> > under this new parent, they don't use the "child" style. Is
> posible to get
> > this behaviour?
>
> 	New items always take on the style of the list itself (as in List
> Prefs), currently.

Well, here is the problem, because I think that is not working as expected
(at last by me!). I should say first, that english is not my natural
language, so perhaps I have missunderstod someting... I try to wrote my line
of thinking.

* I have created a new list and I have choose the List Type for it as
Checklist. Also, I have selected the option "New items take sibiling's
view". I understand that sibiling refer to other items with the same
parent(s) (as in brother and sisters are sibiling).

* I've inserted one item. It gets the Checklist as expected. I open the
detail form and set its list type to Tasklist.

* I've inserted a second top level item (sibiling of the previous) and I get
it with the same Tasklist type. Ok is a sibiling, so the option is working.

* Now, I've inserted a child of the first item. Is NOT a sibiling of his
partent, so it don't have any item from witch take the view, so it will take
the default view (Checklist), but NOT, it get the list type of his parent.
Here is where I think that the default List Type and the option "New items
take sibiling's view" are not working as expected.

What I was expecting is that if there are some other item with the same
parent that the one I'm inserting, the list type should be copied, but if
not, the default type should apply.

The current behaviour is redundant, because the "New items take sibiling's
view" don't do nothing!. The same could be acomplised only changing the
default Type List.

> 	It'd probably be better to have new items take on the styles of
> nearby items (like they do for auto-numbering). If people like this idea,
> I coudl look into it.

Perhaps a good start point could be to use the term "sibiling" as one of
this two meanings:

* items with the same parent.
* items on the same generation (deep level).

The last option will enable you to predefine a List Type for each deep level
without defining it. You make a "sample" branch with a List Type defined for
each level and then begin to add real items. Each new item will default to
the List Type of other item of the same level.

Saludos,
Rafa
9052

From: tarasofsky Tarasofsky@t...  <Tarasofsky@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:00am
Subject: continuing conduit woes

 
Hi,

I know the conduit was greatly improved, but I still have some nagging 
issues.  I link constantly to TODO and find that these links are often 
severed, even though I have done nothing to sever them. I sync to two 
computers (have the conduit set so that handheld overrides desktop).  
I also have the conduit set to keep changes from both sides.  The 
files in question are also synced to the desktop.  Anyone else 
experiencing this?  Any fixes?

Another small question, since I am writing this note.  How does one 
delete a link?  I tap "delete" in the Link Manager, but nothing 
happens.  This means that I need to sever the link and then go and 
delete the ToDo.  Is this happenning because I use DB5?

Ciao,

Richard
9053

From: tsuchy tsuchy@y...  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:08am
Subject: Re: continuing conduit woes

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "tarasofsky <Tarasofsky@t...>"
<Tarasofsky@t...> wrote:
> Another small question, since I am writing this note.  How does one 
> delete a link?  I tap "delete" in the Link Manager, but nothing 
> happens.  This means that I need to sever the link and then go and 
> delete the ToDo.  Is this happenning because I use DB5?

In Link Manager, tap on the drop-down next to "ToDo link" or "Datebook
link"; if there's a link, there'll be an option to "Delete link
entirely"... that'll do it, after a warning prompt.

-Tom
9054

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:40pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Ken Stuart wrote:

> 471 items, all linked to ToDo, only one or two notes total.

	*oof* :)

> I understand what is slower or faster in Shadow, but you asked for what is the
> biggest annoyance. :-)
> 
> Specifically, if I press the hardware button for Shadow, and then press a
> hardware button for another app, and then go back to Shadow, and then go to a
> third app, and then go back to Shadow, each time, the display of the screen on
> Shadow takes significantly longer than any other app.

	Not too much I can do about it. I could perhaps try and store the
last modified date of the todo database (say) and try and skip updates
when unchanged, etc. Could be futzy and unreliable in somw ways though, so
I've always just done it "hardcore".

> - Other apps opening a database of several hundred items don't take as
> long as Shadow.  I realize this is probably due to unique things that
> Shadow needs to do, but there it is.

	Yep. Other apps don't do what Shadow does :) (ie: Scanning for all
the links is necessary due to the hierarchical nature of things.. a todo
that is checked causes cascading checks for instance, so we need to know
what the state of all of them are. Most apps only need to see what is on
screen.. Shadow needs to see what it off screen, too). Can't be helped too
much. Shadow also caches ahead to make runtime fast at a slight hit to
load time.. ie: While using Shadow, you probably never see a slowdown. In
other apps, you pay for it all the time.. using the apps is often
sluggish.

> - If I use a filter to restrict the display to only a few dozen items,
> it still takes as long.

	Still has to scan them all, due to the above.

> - If I go back and forth to Shadow, without ever even tapping once in
> Shadow, it still takes as long.

	Sure; it doesn't know what you do outside of Shadow ;)

> Just speculating (obviously I have no idea how you have implemented
> things) - perhaps writing a temporary file in RAM could help Shadow to
> start faster, especially when nothing has changed?  When Shadow was
> first begun, conserving memory space was the number one priority in
> the Palm world.  Now with 128 megabyte memory cards available for all
> platforms for under $40 when "on sale", as well as bigger RAM, memory
> space is available if it means increased functionality.  And such uses
> could be turned on by a preference option, so that older devices could
> still conserve memory space.

	Theres 25 million units out there that still report 130k of heap
available ;) Only the Tungsten T and Sony NX have tonnes of heap (about
700k). The 128MB isn't relevant.. in Palm OS we still only get about 130k
of RAM. The rest is for storage and is very slow to use.

> Also, I noticed that Plucker will take awhile to open large files, BUT
> it will first display the first screen, so that the user can look at
> that while it is doing the rest.  If this is possible in Shadow, that
> would be a big help, because 90% of the time, I want to see what is in
> the first screen, ie my top priority tasks.

	It'd be inaccurate until the rest of the loading is done.

	The trick is that your'e comparing flat apps to a dynamic
hierarchical one. Even other hierarchical applications arent' doing half
of what Shadow has to do.

	Remember all those times I said "if we implement this feature that
is being requested, it'll cost performance"? There you go :)

	I agree though to your observation; its still annoying,
right? Theres a few things I can do to alleviate it a little. But its more
or less the way it has to be, in the name of getting everything correct,
and keeping all the features we've got.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9055

From: Bob Noe  <bnoe@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:41pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
- Scrolling with the Jog wheel scrolls to filtered items.
- Having to manage the dates on parent items by hand.
- Trying to expand and colapse things by tapping on the arrow.  (Sony Clie
running in Hi Res).

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
...
> Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
...
> jeff
9056

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:51pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, tanker_bob <rmattes@c...> wrote:

> The most annoying thing is the number of taps it takes to add a tag to
> a new entry--six, and eight for an existing entry!  Almost more effort
> than they're worth.

	... except with the tag column.. 2 or 5 depending if its the first
one or not.

	But yeah, I need to decrease it when the tag column is not
visible.

		jeff

> 
> Regards,
> Tanker Bob
> http://home.cfl.rr.com/rmattes/palmframe.htm
> Global moderator at http://www.pdaavenue.com/
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> > 
> > 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> > surround Shadow Plan?
> > 
> > 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've 
> got. So
> > we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do 
> you
> > *dislike*? If anything?
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9057

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:33pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Since you asked...mostly the following have been brought up by one or
another:

1.  Scrolling by jog wheel does not skip filtered items -- this one is at
the hate level :)

2.  No quick way to do filter by tag -- only an annoyance, but I really
dislike having to create a custom filter just to filter on one tag.  Not
only is that inconvenient, but it really clutters up my filter list.

3.  No columnar display of start and finish dates -- also just an annoyance

Ling
--
9058

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Ken Latham <clatham1@t...> wrote:

> My settings are days till due, progress bar, link arrow and suppress
> note icon.
> 
> I estimate that there is room for 22 characters (aside from the
> indent) in the font that I use... Helvetica 9.
> 
> This should be something close to "SCR #3733 ndisbord.ini"
> 
> Instead I get ...
> 
> "SCR #3733 ..."
> 
> Thanks, really... I'm so good with the issue numbers... this tells me
> *everything* I need to know!  (can you taste the sarcasm?)
> 
> I would really rather you did away with the *useless* three little
> dots and at least gave me "ndisbord.i" if that's all that will fit!
> 
> (1) I *know* I've got wrap suppressed.
> (2) the dots do *not* help me in *any* way

	They let you know there is more.

> (3) I know its not much more text, but those few characters make *all*
> the difference.

	Replacing three periods would get you only "nd" :)

	So the answer is.. do I need a pref to define what a word wrap
is? (ie: Truncation versus word wrap)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9059

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:30pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Ken Gordon wrote:
> 
>> Besides the long route to adding a tag, which other have
mentioned, I
>> miss being able to set the time of an item that I intend to link to
>> the datebook. The absence of a time picker means you need to link
the
>> item, then go to the datebook app to set the time.
> 
> 	Going in soon.
> 
> 		jeff

Hurray!!

 - Jeramy
9060

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:56pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:
> 
> 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
> 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
> 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"

I can't say the word "hate" when it some to Shadow, it is too useful
for that.  I will voice my opinion an a couple of things.  I think
they have been mentioned already, but to help illustrate what people
want, I'll give Jeff the feedback he is looking for:

1.  I really wish we could set the time inside of SP for DateBook
appointments.  Even if it is when you are makinging/editing the link
to the DateBook DB, it would be a great help.  

A stray thought here, if the SP DB had times and alarms built in, I am
guessing that there are probably (a few) people who would forgoe the
built-in DateBook DB altogether (or Agendus/DateBk5/etc...)

2.  Jeff, I think you are serious about a Shadow "Today" type app that
integrates the built in ToDo, DateBook, and Shadow DB's.  IIRC you
mentioned something about the use of icons.  I would vote for the use
of the icons from Agendus / DateBk5.  The Agendus ones are interesting
as DB5 can use these as well.  If a person could select an icon inside
of SP when making the item, WOW!  That would be so cool.  Even if SP
does not display the icon, the other apps that can, would.

I am not sure what method DB5 uses for describing the icon, but of
course you know that Agendus puts a bit of information in the note. 
If this could be added to SP I'll bet that many of your users would
benefit.

Thanks Jeff and keep up the good work.

 - Jeramy
9061

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:46pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, ROYLE Anthony wrote:

> 1. Last tag category being forgotten when you leave shadow, then come back

	Noted.

> 2. Expand and checkbox too small in hi-res mode

	Hmm...

> 3. Having to remind Jeff every 2 weeks about a 2nd text field ;-)

	Misc text field?

	Sometime :)

> 4. Start/Finish Dates not available as columns

	I'll see what I can do.

		jeff

> 
> 
> Anthony Royle
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 21 January 2003 5:52
> > To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 	Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> > 
> > 	Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> > surround Shadow Plan?
> > 
> > 	We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign 
> > we've got. So
> > we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> > *dislike*? If anything?
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9062

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:53pm
Subject: RE: List templates

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Rafael Barbera wrote:

> > 	I look at every list as a template in the file selection screen
> > you can use "Duplicate" to copy any list. Some people crete a category
> > called Templates and fill it up full of empty useful list layouts, and
> > then use Duplciate to copy them for their real lists.
> 
> But if you have "custimized" the list type of some levels (as in my
> example), you should save the "template" with data to retain the format
> information isn't it?

	Indeed, you are right.

> > 	New items always take on the style of the list itself (as in List
> > Prefs), currently.
> 
> Well, here is the problem, because I think that is not working as expected
> (at last by me!). I should say first, that english is not my natural
> language, so perhaps I have missunderstod someting... I try to wrote my line
> of thinking.
> 
> * I have created a new list and I have choose the List Type for it as
> Checklist. Also, I have selected the option "New items take sibiling's
> view". I understand that sibiling refer to other items with the same
> parent(s) (as in brother and sisters are sibiling).

	OKay; without that option selected, items should become Checklist
items. With that option selected, items should become whatever their
siblings are. A sibling is the nearest same level item.

> * I've inserted one item. It gets the Checklist as expected. I open the
> detail form and set its list type to Tasklist.
> 
> * I've inserted a second top level item (sibiling of the previous) and I get
> it with the same Tasklist type. Ok is a sibiling, so the option is working.
> 
> * Now, I've inserted a child of the first item. Is NOT a sibiling of his
> partent, so it don't have any item from witch take the view, so it will take
> the default view (Checklist), but NOT, it get the list type of his parent.
> Here is where I think that the default List Type and the option "New items
> take sibiling's view" are not working as expected.

	OKay. I may have made it so the parent is considered a sibling for
this action by mistake. If this is the case, I can fix that. At the back
of my head I think it may have been made like that by request. Hmm.

> * items with the same parent.
> * items on the same generation (deep level).

	A siblign is the same sublevel, which is to say the same depth and
the same parent.

Parent
.	sibling
.	sibling

> The last option will enable you to predefine a List Type for each deep
> level without defining it. You make a "sample" branch with a List Type
> defined for each level and then begin to add real items. Each new item
> will default to the List Type of other item of the same level.

	OKay. So here is the way it is supopsed to work, which I think is
what you want it to do, and there must be a bug in there:

Without the "take on sibling view":
New item, first in its sublevel (or first item in entire list) should be
list type.
New item, not first in its sublevel, should take on list type

With the option set:
First item in a sublevel should take on list type
Second item in a sublevel should take on sibling type

	Agreed?

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9063

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:57pm
Subject: Re: continuing conduit woes

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, tarasofsky <Tarasofsky@t...> wrote:

> I know the conduit was greatly improved, but I still have some nagging
> issues.  I link constantly to TODO and find that these links are often
> severed, even though I have done nothing to sever them. I sync to two
> computers (have the conduit set so that handheld overrides desktop).  
> I also have the conduit set to keep changes from both sides.  The
> files in question are also synced to the desktop.  Anyone else
> experiencing this?  Any fixes?

	No known problem.

	For them to be broken means they were lost in the ToDo database,
not in Shadow (or else the reference to them was corrupted). Not very
likely as this stuff has been solid since conduit day one.

> Another small question, since I am writing this note.  How does one
> delete a link?  I tap "delete" in the Link Manager, but nothing
> happens.  This means that I need to sever the link and then go and
> delete the ToDo.  Is this happenning because I use DB5?

	Several ways:

	1) If you have the ToDo link column, tapping the [T] removes the
linked object and the link reference
	2) If you delete the Shadow item, and have the "delete linekd
object" pref set, the linekd object will go too
	3) If you use the link manager you can sever (delete reference but
leave the link object) or delete (deleted both linked object and the link
ref)

	So "Delete link entirely" removes linked object.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9064

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:59pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Bob Noe wrote:

> - Scrolling with the Jog wheel scrolls to filtered items.

	Will fix.

> - Having to manage the dates on parent items by hand.

	This has to be this way until we figure out an agreeable way to do
it; ie: You may recall we brought this up and beet it to death a few
months back, and found otu that a large number of peopeluse it all three
ways.. some using the parent date to border the children dates, or to
greatly exceed them for lead time, or using it entirely differently.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9065

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:00pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Russ & Ling wrote:

> Since you asked...mostly the following have been brought up by one or
> another:
> 
> 1.  Scrolling by jog wheel does not skip filtered items -- this one is at
> the hate level :)

	Will fix :)

> 2.  No quick way to do filter by tag -- only an annoyance, but I
> really dislike having to create a custom filter just to filter on one
> tag.  Not only is that inconvenient, but it really clutters up my
> filter list.

	Thinking about what to do.

> 3.  No columnar display of start and finish dates -- also just an
> annoyance

	I'll be adding these.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9066

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, fiatspider72 <jphillips@p...> wrote:

> I can't say the word "hate" when it some to Shadow, it is too useful
> for that.  I will voice my opinion an a couple of things.  I think
> they have been mentioned already, but to help illustrate what people
> want, I'll give Jeff the feedback he is looking for:

	Yeah; thought I'd like to get a list of things to clean up
started, aside from things to improve or add.

> 1.  I really wish we could set the time inside of SP for DateBook
> appointments.  Even if it is when you are makinging/editing the link
> to the DateBook DB, it would be a great help.

	I'll see what I can do. Shadow does keep the time.. just doesn't
let you set it :)

> 2.  Jeff, I think you are serious about a Shadow "Today" type app that
> integrates the built in ToDo, DateBook, and Shadow DB's.  IIRC you
> mentioned something about the use of icons.  I would vote for the use
> of the icons from Agendus / DateBk5.  The Agendus ones are interesting
> as DB5 can use these as well.  If a person could select an icon inside
> of SP when making the item, WOW!  That would be so cool.  Even if SP
> does not display the icon, the other apps that can, would.

	Myself, I just never saw the use of icons. All they do is look
pretty, and I never have time to set them when they don't offer function
;) But yeah, I'll probabyl add them since I realize I'm probably wrong
again ;)

> I am not sure what method DB5 uses for describing the icon, but of
> course you know that Agendus puts a bit of information in the note. 
> If this could be added to SP I'll bet that many of your users would
> benefit.

	Yeah, that could be futzy.. how to mark it up. I suppose it would
be cool though.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9067

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:05pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
> I can't say the word "hate" when it some to Shadow, it is too useful
> for that.  I will voice my opinion an a couple of things.  I think
> they have been mentioned already, but to help illustrate what people
> want, I'll give Jeff the feedback he is looking for:
> 
> 1.  I really wish we could set the time inside of SP for DateBook
> appointments.  Even if it is when you are makinging/editing the link
> to the DateBook DB, it would be a great help.  
> 
> A stray thought here, if the SP DB had times and alarms built in, I am
> guessing that there are probably (a few) people who would forgoe the
> built-in DateBook DB altogether (or Agendus/DateBk5/etc...)
> 
> 2.  Jeff, I think you are serious about a Shadow "Today" type app that
> integrates the built in ToDo, DateBook, and Shadow DB's.  IIRC you
> mentioned something about the use of icons.  I would vote for the use
> of the icons from Agendus / DateBk5.  The Agendus ones are interesting
> as DB5 can use these as well.  If a person could select an icon inside
> of SP when making the item, WOW!  That would be so cool.  Even if SP
> does not display the icon, the other apps that can, would.
> 
> I am not sure what method DB5 uses for describing the icon, but of
> course you know that Agendus puts a bit of information in the note. 
> If this could be added to SP I'll bet that many of your users would
> benefit.
> 
> Thanks Jeff and keep up the good work.
> 
>  - Jeramy


Oh yeah, and one other thing...

The ability to import DateBook entries the same as ToDos:
     [[[fiel name]]]

 - Jeramy
9068

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:08pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
> > 1.  I really wish we could set the time inside of SP for DateBook
> > appointments.  Even if it is when you are makinging/editing the link
> > to the DateBook DB, it would be a great help.
> 
> 	I'll see what I can do. Shadow does keep the time.. just doesn't
> let you set it :)
> 

How about just getting the time information from the linked DateBook item?

Just a thought
9069

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, fiatspider72 <jphillips@p...> wrote:

> > > 1.  I really wish we could set the time inside of SP for DateBook
> > > appointments.  Even if it is when you are makinging/editing the link
> > > to the DateBook DB, it would be a great help.
> > 
> > 	I'll see what I can do. Shadow does keep the time.. just doesn't
> > let you set it :)
> 
> How about just getting the time information from the linked DateBook item?

	The question was about setting the time for newly linked items.
When an item is brought in from a link, we keep the time (or else you'd
lose it after Shadow ran(). We just don't display or allow editting of it.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9070

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:25pm
Subject: Shadow Plan 2.7.2 Released!

 
Very minor update, solely to fix the problem a few people
noticed. In 2.7 we introduced a bug where linked toDo's wouldn't
immediately filter out when they should when you first open the
list. Fixed in 2.7.2.

	Get it from the front page of the website or the download page.
Also note that on the download page I've added a "handheld only" version
of 2.7.2.. it just doesn't include the Windows desktop or installer or the
like and is a much smaller download.

	http://www.codejedi.com

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9071

From: Rafael Barbera  <rbarberac@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:27pm
Subject: RE: List templates

 
Hello Jeff,

> 	OKay. So here is the way it is supopsed to work, which I think is
> what you want it to do, and there must be a bug in there:
>
> Without the "take on sibling view":
> New item, first in its sublevel (or first item in entire list) should be
> list type.
> New item, not first in its sublevel, should take on list type
>
> With the option set:
> First item in a sublevel should take on list type
> Second item in a sublevel should take on sibling type
>
> 	Agreed?

Completly.

That's the way I was thinking SP works... so, surely there are some little
bug (or request ;-) behind the current behaviour.


--
Saludos,
Rafael Barbera
9072

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:50pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Jeff Mitchell wrote:

>>Okay, I don't hate anything, but something that still bugs me, and comes
>>up every so often in this forum is that we can't make tasks become
>>active when the previous one is completed within a given parent (in
>>other words, tasks that become sequentially activated as you do the
>>precursor tasks). 
>>
>
>	See discussion from a week or two back; not huge to implement, but
>fiddly to get just right for everyone :) Its never been high on my
>priority list, but if theres a renewed burst of interest I'll see about
>putting it on my list.
>  
>
I REALLY want this one Jeff!  My other "gripes" are that I really can't 
use hi res mode and be able to see anything at all, or hit any of the 
arrows or controls in a reliable fashion, so I have to leave hi res off. 
 And the word wrap thing still bugs me too-- I would like to see a few 
letters of the word, whatever will fit in the column, instead of leaving 
out the whole word. Other than that I'm pretty happy, though there are 
things I want-- such as children inheriting the to do category and tags 
of their parent, for faster data entry. I'll try to see if I can 
remember anything else.

-- 

Jen

http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
9073

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Ken Latham  wrote:

>I would really rather you did away with the *useless* three little
>dots and at least gave me "ndisbord.i" if that's all that will fit!
>
>(1) I *know* I've got wrap suppressed.
>(2) the dots do *not* help me in *any* way
>(3) I know its not much more text, but those few characters make *all*
>the difference.
>
>...ok, now that I have *that* off my chest, I feel *much* better! :)
>
Amen brother!!!! Users of long words, unite!  :)

-- 

Jen

http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
9074

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:33pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
Still HATE that when I am in a list and tap on the scollbar to the right it
jumps two screens.  WAY too sensitive!  Very annoying to always have to drag
the black section within the scrollbar or go to an end arrow to not skip any
part of my list.  Please fix that at some point.soon!!!

Thanks,

Kevin

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:52 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)

 


      Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..

      Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
surround Shadow Plan?

      We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
*dislike*? If anything?

            jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"






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9075

From: adirondack_46er adirondack_46er@y...  <adirondack_46er@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:17pm
Subject: gadget icon sizes and hi-res on a Clie

 
I've played for a while now trying to set up hi-res mode on my 
Clie SJ30. Initially Shadow wouldn't hold my Fontbucket settings, 
and I reinstalled as one of the threads suggested - seems to 
have resolved.

My next question has to do with the icons for gadgets - they are 
now pretty tiny (I am using the largest size of Lubek's San Serif 
font).

Is that just the way it is, or is there a way to increase the size of 
the gadget icons to match the font I am using?

Thanks

John
9076

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:33pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, PocketGoddess wrote:

> I REALLY want this one Jeff!  My other "gripes" are that I really can't 
> use hi res mode and be able to see anything at all, or hit any of the 
> arrows or controls in a reliable fashion, so I have to leave hi res off. 

	An observation; many people don't need hires mode. ie: On most
units, non-hires-mode is still in hires, just not with tiny fonts. What do
I mean?

	Remember.. resolution does not mean more information. It means
better presentation. ie: A 15" monitor at 640x480 or 1024x768 or
1600x1200.. its still a 15" monitor. You can put more if you want to by
makign it tinier, and its still ledgible maybe.. but the way resolution is
designed to be used is to give you better clarity for the same
information. Thats why on Paml OS 5 they refer to "high density" instead
of "high resolution".. its the same thing, but people tend to think of
resolution incorrectly as more "space".

	I use Shadow in low res on my Tungsten T. Thats not to mean tis
low res.. it means Shadow treats the OS like planned and everythign is
rendered smooth and big. Nothing wrong with it. I use dto use high res
mode and cram cram cram.. but now I'm sick of it being too small unless I
crank up the font. And so I crank up the font and.. wait, I'm just trying
to make it like low res mode again :)

	So if you want to cram.. use high res mode. If not.. use low
res. Theres no shame. Its great :) Everythign is crisp and sharp :)

	Handera should use highres mode. It looks good ;)

	However.. maybe you do want high-res mode.. what is wrong with it
now? Icons too small? Text too small I can't help with too much.. you want
highres it means you want small text. Thats your business :) I can help
with spacing and icons a bit perhaps though if thats the only problem.

	(Sorry, I don't mean this to sound rantish. I didnt' sleep last
night.. the insomnia kicking in again ;)

>  And the word wrap thing still bugs me too-- I would like to see a few
> letters of the word, whatever will fit in the column, instead of
> leaving out the whole word. Other than that I'm pretty happy, though
> there are things I want-- such as children inheriting the to do
> category and tags of their parent, for faster data entry. I'll try to
> see if I can remember anything else.

	I can put another option in perhaps.. like "sibling inherit view",
"inherit parent tags".

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9077

From: Bob Noe  <bnoe@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:40pm
Subject: Dates on parent items.

 
Yeah I know.

I would be happy with Parent dates that stayed at or outside the children
dates.  It seems almost a necessity for project management.  Of course with
the recent direction the discussions are going with todo links and
scheduling and today display its more like a datebook/to-do replacement than
project management type software which I try and use it for.  So when you
ask how things should be I bring it up hoping to spark debate.  I just don't
understand why someone would want parent item dates 'inside' the children's
dates and I don't remember the old arguments.  Maybe I should go read the
archives.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)


> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Bob Noe wrote:
> > - Having to manage the dates on parent items by hand.
>
> This has to be this way until we figure out an agreeable way to do
> it; ie: You may recall we brought this up and beet it to death a few
> months back, and found otu that a large number of peopeluse it all three
> ways.. some using the parent date to border the children dates, or to
> greatly exceed them for lead time, or using it entirely differently.
>
> jeff
9078

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:43pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, fiatspider72 <jphillips@p...> wrote:

> > 
> > How about just getting the time information from the linked
DateBook item?
> 
> 	The question was about setting the time for newly linked items.
> When an item is brought in from a link, we keep the time (or else you'd
> lose it after Shadow ran(). We just don't display or allow editting
of it.
> 
> 		jeff

I didn't realize that you were getting the _entire_ DateBook entry.  I
figure you were only getting the part that you needed.  Of course,
maybe the Palm date & time foprmats are roled into one, I don't know.

So, does that mean that SP is also getting end times as well?

I would also guess then that you have to get alarm info as well?

 - Jeramy
9079

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:47pm
Subject: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
Currently when you turn off "word wrap", we truncate the line as
if it was word wrapped. This is a ncie effect and means that the first
line looks the same with or withotu wordwrap more or less.. you're just
turning off the rest of the item. However, if you're German and have long
words, or if you're got lots of long data in there.. word wrap is a
pain. You might want Truncation.

	So.. does everyone dislike wordwrap? Or do I need a pref to define
hwo you do wordwrap.. as wordwrap now, or as trncation, settable? IF no
oner wants word wrap, I'll just change it.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9080

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:48pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, PocketGoddess <jen@p...> wrote:
> Ken Latham  wrote:
> 
> >I would really rather you did away with the *useless* three little
> >dots and at least gave me "ndisbord.i" if that's all that will fit!
> >
> >(1) I *know* I've got wrap suppressed.
> >(2) the dots do *not* help me in *any* way
> >(3) I know its not much more text, but those few characters make *all*
> >the difference.
> >
> >...ok, now that I have *that* off my chest, I feel *much* better! :)
> >
> Amen brother!!!! Users of long words, unite!  :)
> 
> -- 
> 
> Jen
> 
> http://www.pocketgoddess.com
> 98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!


Jeff -

Maybe you could replace the "..." with a single character that is
seldom used?  A "|" or "~" maybe?  Or the ASCII 127 character "[]"?
9081

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:48pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Kevin Giberson wrote:

> Still HATE that when I am in a list and tap on the scollbar to the
> right it jumps two screens.  WAY too sensitive!  Very annoying to
> always have to drag the black section within the scrollbar or go to an
> end arrow to not skip any part of my list.  Please fix that at some
> point.soon!!!

	Not sure what to do here; the OS tells Shadow to
jump.. *twice*. Messing with it is pretty uncool :/ I've seen some apps
that have the same problem, others that do not. I'll poke around but its
not doing anythign incorrectly :/

		jeff

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kevin
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:52 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> 
>  
> 
> 
>       Heres a thread I bet we've never seen before..
> 
>       Is there anything you hate or annoyed by in Shadow Plan or
> surround Shadow Plan?
> 
>       We tend to focus on new things or changing somethign we've got. So
> we talk about what we miss or what needs to change.. but what do you
> *dislike*? If anything?
> 
>             jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 
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>  
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861422.4212389.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=17050160
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> ,FF.html> HGTV Dream Home Giveaway
> 
> 
>  
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=241773.2861422.4212389.1925585/D=egroupmai
> l/S=:HM/A=1394045/rand=473310660> 
> 
> 
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> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9082

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:49pm
Subject: Re: gadget icon sizes and hi-res on a Clie

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, adirondack_46er <adirondack_46er@y...> wrote:

> I've played for a while now trying to set up hi-res mode on my 
> Clie SJ30. Initially Shadow wouldn't hold my Fontbucket settings, 
> and I reinstalled as one of the threads suggested - seems to 
> have resolved.
> 
> My next question has to do with the icons for gadgets - they are 
> now pretty tiny (I am using the largest size of Lubek's San Serif 
> font).
> 
> Is that just the way it is, or is there a way to increase the size of 
> the gadget icons to match the font I am using?

	Icons are not like fonts.. they're hand drawn for a certain
size. To make larger ones, we'll have to redraw them all. I can do
that.. just waiting for the right time to do it (a little application
bloat when including multiple icon sets)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9083

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Dates on parent items.

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Bob Noe wrote:

> I would be happy with Parent dates that stayed at or outside the children
> dates.  It seems almost a necessity for project management.  Of course with
> the recent direction the discussions are going with todo links and
> scheduling and today display its more like a datebook/to-do replacement than
> project management type software which I try and use it for.  So when you

	Not true; Shadow has a wide vareity of uses. At any one time I
cater to one subgroup, but I try not to cater to everyone at one time or
nothing would ever get done ;) So theres a lot being planned for PMing
(like item to item linking, etc), but other stuff for others too. Also..
gotta stay in business. When you're giving away free updates and growing
an app like mad... must grow the revenue chain other ways. And a week view
and such is absolutely necessary so I can stop using AN just for a week
view ;)

> ask how things should be I bring it up hoping to spark debate.  I just don't
> understand why someone would want parent item dates 'inside' the children's
> dates and I don't remember the old arguments.  Maybe I should go read the
> archives.

	I could add an option to border the parent on his childrens
dates. The trick is.. I assume yuo ignroe undated items for this
calculation?

		jeff

> 
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
> To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] What do you hate? :)
> 
> 
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Bob Noe wrote:
> > > - Having to manage the dates on parent items by hand.
> >
> > This has to be this way until we figure out an agreeable way to do
> > it; ie: You may recall we brought this up and beet it to death a few
> > months back, and found otu that a large number of peopeluse it all three
> > ways.. some using the parent date to border the children dates, or to
> > greatly exceed them for lead time, or using it entirely differently.
> >
> > jeff
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9084

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:52pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
> 
> 	I use Shadow in low res on my Tungsten T. Thats not to mean tis
> low res.. it means Shadow treats the OS like planned and everythign is
> rendered smooth and big. Nothing wrong with it. I use dto use high res
> mode and cram cram cram.. but now I'm sick of it being too small
unless I
> crank up the font. And so I crank up the font and.. wait, I'm just
trying
> to make it like low res mode again :)
> 

On the Clie's though unchecking the box disabled themes too.  I couldn't
get the fonts to look right either...might I am very quickly going back
to hi-res as I am quite used to the col-bg/themes now.

> 	However.. maybe you do want high-res mode.. what is wrong with
it
> now? Icons too small? Text too small I can't help with too much.. you
want
> highres it means you want small text. Thats your business :) I can
help
> with spacing and icons a bit perhaps though if thats the only problem.
> 

Spacing really...I don't mind the small icons...but it's damn hard to
tap within the space allotted at times.

> 	(Sorry, I don't mean this to sound rantish. I didnt' sleep last
> night.. the insomnia kicking in again ;)

Must mean Shadow 2.9 is just around the corner ;-)
9085

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, fiatspider72 <jphillips@p...> wrote:

> I didn't realize that you were getting the _entire_ DateBook entry.  I
> figure you were only getting the part that you needed.  Of course,
> maybe the Palm date & time foprmats are roled into one, I don't know.
> 
> So, does that mean that SP is also getting end times as well?

	I forget how its encoded, but yeah.

> I would also guess then that you have to get alarm info as well?

	All of it. You know, I've nto looked at that part of Shadow in a
year or two and I've no idea how I handle that stuff anymore ;) I'll go
read up. Thats how big Shadow is ;)

	(Really, you don't want to know; the Shadow source code across all
platforms is massive. *massive*)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9086

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:55pm
Subject: RE: Dates on parent items.

 
I really want to use Shadow as both...if Jeff will allow it.  I think
it'd be awesome to have one tool, or set of tools that did 90% of what I
need to do for me.

I don't understand that either...if it's a parent, it should either be
undated or encompass the dates of its children.  

> From: Bob Noe [mailto:bnoe@c...]
> 
> I would be happy with Parent dates that stayed at or outside the
children
> dates.  It seems almost a necessity for project management.  Of course
> with
> the recent direction the discussions are going with todo links and
> scheduling and today display its more like a datebook/to-do
replacement
> than
> project management type software which I try and use it for.  So when
you
> ask how things should be I bring it up hoping to spark debate.  I just
> don't
> understand why someone would want parent item dates 'inside' the
> children's
> dates and I don't remember the old arguments.  Maybe I should go read
the
> archives.
>
9087

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:55pm
Subject: Re: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Currently when you turn off "word wrap", we truncate the line as
> if it was word wrapped. This is a ncie effect and means that the first
> line looks the same with or withotu wordwrap more or less.. you're just
> turning off the rest of the item. However, if you're German and have
long
> words, or if you're got lots of long data in there.. word wrap is a
> pain. You might want Truncation.
> 
> 	So.. does everyone dislike wordwrap? Or do I need a pref to define
> hwo you do wordwrap.. as wordwrap now, or as trncation, settable? IF no
> oner wants word wrap, I'll just change it.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
Jeff - 

I like word wrap on and use it all of the time.  At times when I do
not want word wrap on, I would like to see the truncation change to
something else to get me a coulple of extra characters.  Maybe a "|"
or "~".  I don't want to to lost the truncation symbol entirely.

 - Jeramy
9088

From: Jim Anderson  <jima@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:55pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
At 02:48 PM 1/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Kevin Giberson wrote:
>
> > Still HATE that when I am in a list and tap on the scollbar to the
> > right it jumps two screens.  WAY too sensitive!  Very annoying to
> > always have to drag the black section within the scrollbar or go to an
> > end arrow to not skip any part of my list.  Please fix that at some
> > point.soon!!!
>
>         Not sure what to do here; the OS tells Shadow to
>jump.. *twice*. Messing with it is pretty uncool :/ I've seen some apps
>that have the same problem, others that do not. I'll poke around but its
>not doing anythign incorrectly :/

Can you note the time of the event, and ignore subsequent identical events 
for a 1/4 second or so?
9089

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:59pm
Subject: RE: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
I've never used wordwrap...and I'd have been confused if I did...I would
expect turning it on would display the entire contents of the entry over
multiple lines. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:48 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Wordwrap or Truncation?
> 
> 
> 	Currently when you turn off "word wrap", we truncate the line as
> if it was word wrapped. This is a ncie effect and means that the first
> line looks the same with or withotu wordwrap more or less.. you're
just
> turning off the rest of the item. However, if you're German and have
long
> words, or if you're got lots of long data in there.. word wrap is a
> pain. You might want Truncation.
> 
> 	So.. does everyone dislike wordwrap? Or do I need a pref to
define
> hwo you do wordwrap.. as wordwrap now, or as trncation, settable? IF
no
> oner wants word wrap, I'll just change it.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "Have you played Atari today?"
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>
9090

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:02pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
wrote:

> > So, does that mean that SP is also getting end times as well?
> 
> 	I forget how its encoded, but yeah.
> 
> > I would also guess then that you have to get alarm info as well?
> 
> 	All of it. You know, I've nto looked at that part of Shadow in a
> year or two and I've no idea how I handle that stuff anymore ;)
I'll go
> read up. Thats how big Shadow is ;)

It would *almost* seem trivial then to add time and alarms into Shadow
if you are grabbing the info anyway.  ;-)  (I know, I know, *massive*)

> 	(Really, you don't want to know; the Shadow source code across all
> platforms is massive. *massive*)

I run a 2500 page website.  Thank God for databases and scripting!  I
feel your pain.

 - Jeramy
9091

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:05pm
Subject: RE: Dates on parent items.

 
> 
> 	Not true; Shadow has a wide vareity of uses. At any one time I
> cater to one subgroup, but I try not to cater to everyone at one time
or
> nothing would ever get done ;) So theres a lot being planned for PMing
> (like item to item linking, etc), but other stuff for others too.
Also..
> gotta stay in business. When you're giving away free updates and
growing
> an app like mad... must grow the revenue chain other ways. And a week
view
> and such is absolutely necessary so I can stop using AN just for a
week
> view ;)
> 

Please charge me a $5.00 upgrade fee for 3.0 when it comes out!  I
really think it's time to start charging for major version changes...I
know the problem is how to determine what new features constitute a
version change. 

For me, a new tag manager, item-item linking, auto-link, and maybe a
couple others would be a 3.0...maybe should've saved themes until then
too ;-)
9092

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
Jeff Mitchell wrote:

>Currently when you turn off "word wrap", we truncate the line as
>if it was word wrapped. This is a ncie effect and means that the first
>line looks the same with or withotu wordwrap more or less.. you're just
>turning off the rest of the item. However, if you're German and have long
>words, or if you're got lots of long data in there.. word wrap is a
>pain. You might want Truncation.
>
>	So.. does everyone dislike wordwrap? Or do I need a pref to define
>hwo you do wordwrap.. as wordwrap now, or as trncation, settable? IF no
>oner wants word wrap, I'll just change it.
>
>  
>
I would much prefer truncation-- get in as much as I can without 
switching to CRAM mode. I'm happy with a pref to do that, or you can 
change it if there's no outcry.

-- 

Jen

http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
9093

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:07pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Griff wrote:

> Spacing really...I don't mind the small icons...but it's damn hard to
> tap within the space allotted at times.

	Sort of alludes to larger icons. Maybe its time to take the
plunge.

	I suppose I should make it smart.. maybe another file you can
install with alternate icons. If you forget, act like it does now.. if you
remember, larger icons. Hmrf.

> > 	(Sorry, I don't mean this to sound rantish. I didnt' sleep last
> > night.. the insomnia kicking in again ;)
> 
> Must mean Shadow 2.9 is just around the corner ;-)

	Insomnia has its uses :P

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9094

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:14pm
Subject: RE: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Jim Anderson wrote:

> > > Still HATE that when I am in a list and tap on the scollbar to the
> > > right it jumps two screens.  WAY too sensitive!  Very annoying to
> > > always have to drag the black section within the scrollbar or go to an
> > > end arrow to not skip any part of my list.  Please fix that at some
> > > point.soon!!!
> >
> >         Not sure what to do here; the OS tells Shadow to
> >jump.. *twice*. Messing with it is pretty uncool :/ I've seen some apps
> >that have the same problem, others that do not. I'll poke around but its
> >not doing anythign incorrectly :/
> 
> Can you note the time of the event, and ignore subsequent identical events 
> for a 1/4 second or so?

	You're supopsed to be able to tap-and-hold to get repeating of the
page-up/down effect. I wonder if this is the bug Palm is takling about in
the OS5.2 update, which refers to repeat timing problems..

	Hmm. OKay, tapped around. It is a little annoying isn't it?

	I'll see what I can do.

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9095

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:16pm
Subject: RE: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Griff wrote:

> I've never used wordwrap...and I'd have been confused if I did...I would
> expect turning it on would display the entire contents of the entry over
> multiple lines. 

	The option is to suppress wordwrap; by default it does wordwrap
across multiple lines. So turning on the option writes out across one long
line, but then truncates when it woudl go too far. So the question
is.. when it trucnates shoudl it truncate mid-word or end of word.

		jeff

> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:48 PM
> > To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [shadow-discuss] Wordwrap or Truncation?
> > 
> > 
> > 	Currently when you turn off "word wrap", we truncate the line as
> > if it was word wrapped. This is a ncie effect and means that the first
> > line looks the same with or withotu wordwrap more or less.. you're
> just
> > turning off the rest of the item. However, if you're German and have
> long
> > words, or if you're got lots of long data in there.. word wrap is a
> > pain. You might want Truncation.
> > 
> > 	So.. does everyone dislike wordwrap? Or do I need a pref to
> define
> > hwo you do wordwrap.. as wordwrap now, or as trncation, settable? IF
> no
> > oner wants word wrap, I'll just change it.
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "Have you played Atari today?"
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9096

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, fiatspider72 <jphillips@p...> wrote:

> > 	All of it. You know, I've nto looked at that part of Shadow in a
> > year or two and I've no idea how I handle that stuff anymore ;)
> I'll go
> > read up. Thats how big Shadow is ;)
> 
> It would *almost* seem trivial then to add time and alarms into Shadow
> if you are grabbing the info anyway.  ;-)  (I know, I know, *massive*)

	Storign is easy; its handlign the alarms, making a user
interface for viewing and editting.. all work :)

> > 	(Really, you don't want to know; the Shadow source code across all
> > platforms is massive. *massive*)
> 
> I run a 2500 page website.  Thank God for databases and scripting!  I
> feel your pain.

	Damn, 2500 pages is pretty big for a website :)

	I'm pleased to say that the codejedi website now is just a few
scripts that read the content from some XML files (maintained in Shadow
;) It used ot be work to update.. now a few entries in a shadow file and
out pops an updated website :)

		jeff

--
"Have you played Atari today?"
9097

From: fiatspider72 jphillips@p...  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:19pm
Subject: Re: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Griff" <lists@t...> wrote:
> I've never used wordwrap...and I'd have been confused if I did...I would
> expect turning it on would display the entire contents of the entry over
> multiple lines. 

I often use wordwrap for note taking, creating note cards for
presentations, brainstorming, creating outlines for papers.  It is
handy to have it turned on while showing the notes when using them for
cue cards during a presentation.

Actually, I don't think that I had ever really turned off wordwrap
until about 6 months ago.
9098

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:20pm
Subject: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
Jeff Mitchell wrote:

>So if you want to cram.. use high res mode. If not.. use low
>res. Theres no shame. Its great :) Everythign is crisp and sharp :
>
I just wish there were something in between-- a bit smaller than normal, 
but doesn't require extreme squinting.

>	However.. maybe you do want high-res mode.. what is wrong with it
>now? Icons too small? Text too small I can't help with too much.. you want
>highres it means you want small text. Thats your business :) I can help
>with spacing and icons a bit perhaps though if thats the only problem.
>
Spacing and icons is the big issue. Maybe I"m ham-handed, but I just 
COULD NOT tap accurately enough to check off items, hit the link arrow 
column, etc. That's the main reason I had to go back to the "low res" 
mode. I could see the tiny text ok, but I couldn't tap where I wanted to.

>	(Sorry, I don't mean this to sound rantish. I didnt' sleep last
>night.. the insomnia kicking in again ;)
>
Maybe it's contagious? I haven't slept well in a week!

>	I can put another option in perhaps.. like "sibling inherit view",
>"inherit parent tags".
>
That sure would save me a lot of time, thanks for considering it!

-- 

Jen

http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
9099

From: Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: What do you hate? :)

 
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Jeff Mitchell wrote:

> 	I'm pleased to say that the codejedi website now is just a few
> scripts that read the content from some XML files (maintained in Shadow
> ;) It used ot be work to update.. now a few entries in a shadow file and
> out pops an updated website :)

I'd be extremely interested to know more detail on how you are
doing this. I'd love to maintain some of my web content from
Shadow.

-- 
Chris Dent  <cdent@b...>  http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/
"If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are
opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be
justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky
9100

From: Griff  <lists@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:22pm
Subject: RE: Wordwrap or Truncation?

 
Wasn't working right in low-res for me...I never use it anyway...get
enough of the line in with hi-res mode.  If I was forced to vote I'd say
mid-word with three little dots.

> 	The option is to suppress wordwrap; by default it does wordwrap
> across multiple lines. So turning on the option writes out across one
long
> line, but then truncates when it woudl go too far. So the question
> is.. when it trucnates shoudl it truncate mid-word or end of word.
> 
> 		jeff
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