From: Kevin Brown  <zephyr@t...>
Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:38pm
Subject: Tags and Parents

Is there a way to hide untagged parents when filtering a list by tags?

I have a list of projects with an item for each project and sub-tasks as 
children. I'd like to be able to create a filter that shows me only the first 
task that I need to do on each of my projects. I can assign a tag called "next 
action" to the first task under each project, but if I filter by that tag my 
list still shows the parents, even though they don't have tags.

If there's no way to suppress the parents, I guess it's a feature request. I'm 
sure there must be other situations where this would come in handy as well. 
(Of course, if it's a feature request, what I'd really want is some sort of 
fancy next action filter -- but I expect that's a bit too specialized.) 
 
--
Kevin Brown
Somewhere on Earth via webmail
mailto:zephyr@t...

From: Byron Allgood  <1POPOLO@P...>
Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:44pm
Subject: RE: I WANT CPA NOW !!!!!

I was on the fence about this "CPA" stuff untill now. If Jeff were using CPA
he would see that his REAL priorities have changed. Seeing our discussion he
should put off his anniversary plans since this pressing issue has come up
within our group and address it NOW.

It is this kind of developer "selfishness" that burns me up. Why is he all
backed up to begin with. He missed a WHOLE DAY of replying to us. Now he is
behind and still puts HIS needs above ours!!!!!! I spent TWELVE BUCKS of my
hard earned dollars on Shadowplan and I demand to get my monies worth. :)

Look at the facts,

No anniversary....2 people affected.
Anniversary celebrated, yet Denying THOUSANDS your IMMEDIATE attention on
this pressing need.

Just say what I used to say to my "ex" wife. Its STILL our anniversary even
if we dont celebrate.
Or "every day is a daily anniversary with you, and is equally special, to
highlight one day is to diminish all others....." Like you Jeff here
priorities were all messed up, and she never quite got it. Her OBSESION with
SOCIETIES twisted view of anniversary TRADITIONS destroyed our marriage.

Jeff learn from my grief. Stay home buddy. Work on shadow. :)


_______________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
>    Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:51:43 -0400 (EDT)
>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Subject: woa!
>
>
> 	You guys have been busy of late :) I'll try and catch up before
> the weekend, or failing that, Mon/tuesday. Wedding anniversary and going
> away for a few days :)
>
> 		jeff

From: rvanderwoning  <rvanderwoning@y...>
Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:20pm
Subject: Re: Critical Path Analysis

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Bob Pankratz <bob@r...> wrote:
> Just to note that wasn't me that responded....

Sorry if I misrepresented your point of view...

Roy.

From: Bob Pankratz  <bob@r...>
Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Critical Path Analysis

Just playing thread police. 1 "sorry" has been credit to your account 
for future appologies.   ;)

On Friday, August 16, 2002, at 05:20 PM, rvanderwoning wrote:

> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Bob Pankratz <bob@r...> wrote:
>> Just to note that wasn't me that responded....
>
> Sorry if I misrepresented your point of view...
>
> Roy.
>

From: madmaxmedia  <madmaxmedia@y...>
Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:48pm
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

Hi Jeff,

From an applied standpoint, I just want to be able to quickly format 
Shadow files exported to HTML. What I'd like to do is be able to 
modify formatting of different levels and have the changes applied 
throughout the entire document- for example making all top-level 
items bold, font size 18, etc.

Perhaps this can be done already, as the previous responder 
suggested. I am familiar with basic HTML but less so with CSS and 
more advanced features, and not familiar at all with XHTML.

Thanks,
Steve

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, madmaxmedia wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps this has been requested already, but I'd like the HTML 
export
> > files to contain styles (heading 1, 2, etc.) That would allow me 
to
> > tweak the display format very easily.
> 
> 	If you have suggestions for it all, let me know in
> shadow-developer and/or shadow-desktop. I was planning on 
adjusting the
> HTML to be better XHTML friendly, but not too many changes 
otherwise. Make
> it look better of course ;) The XML is there for major tweaking by 
the
> suave, and it is defined on the website.
> 
> > I find the HTML export great for printing large files, or 
sharing info
> > with others (non PDA owners.) I just can't easily re-format them.
> 
> 	Do you speak XML, or just HTML? Spitting out complex CSS 
documents
> could cause issues with older browsers..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: zaarde  <lists@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 16, 2002 11:08pm
Subject: Re: Creation date bug?

Hi,

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> It was by decision, however it may be the undesired behaviour. Let
> me know everyone..
> 
> 		jeff

IMHO copy means copy. So it works like expected.
But perhaps a "Paste as new" could be an useful option / command.

Regards,
Markus

From: rblanzan  <rblanzan@i...>
Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:35am
Subject: Re: Creation date bug?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Jacob Share wrote:
> 
> > I just realized that the Creation Date (cr) noted in an item 
doesn't
> > change with a copy & paste. Is that the way it should be?
> 
> 	It is copied.
> 
> > To be clearer - in some of my lists I have a templatized branch 
that I
> > copy, paste and adjust accordingly. I just realized that all the 
items
> > I have pasted have the cr of the original templatized branch. I'd
> > rather the cr be the date that I pasted, in effect, the Creation 
Date
> > of the adjusted item. Is this a bug? Also, the cr of these items 
is
> > 1/1/04. What's up with that?
> 
> 	It was by decision, however it may be the undesired 
behaviour. Let
> me know everyone..
> 
> 		jeff
> 

This was a point that I was also going to raise, but it is a minor 
point for me.  I also copy items from "template" lists, and would 
prefer that the creation date was the date that the copy was made 
because the copied items become a new project.

Rita

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:31am
Subject: Re: filtered export

>I'm always worried about turning Shadow >into the "do all monolothic"
>application.. you know, that takes up 1MB >of valuable Palm memory :) Its
>already getting "obese" in my books ;)

appreciate you keeping this in mind!

     


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:34am
Subject: Re: Creation date bug?

like a new date with copy and paste!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: Shadow Discuss 
  Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 7:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Creation date bug?


  >I'd
  > rather the cr be the date that I pasted, in effect, the Creation Date
  > of the adjusted item. Is this a bug? Also, the cr of these items is
  > 1/1/04. What's up with that?

        It was by decision, however it may be the undesired behaviour. Let
  me know everyone..

              jeff




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: kenclatham  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:16am
Subject: Re: Creation date bug?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Jacob Share wrote:
> 
> > I just realized that the Creation Date (cr) noted in an item
doesn't
> > change with a copy & paste. Is that the way it should be?
> 
> 	It is copied.
> 
> > To be clearer - in some of my lists I have a templatized branch
that I
> > copy, paste and adjust accordingly. I just realized that all the
items
> > I have pasted have the cr of the original templatized branch. I'd
> > rather the cr be the date that I pasted, in effect, the Creation
Date
> > of the adjusted item. Is this a bug? Also, the cr of these items
is
> > 1/1/04. What's up with that?
> 
> 	It was by decision, however it may be the undesired behaviour. Let
> me know everyone..
> 
> 		jeff
> 

Put me down on the side of "creation is creation, regardless of
source".  If I copy something, it *is* a copy, therefore it must have
been created *after* the original.

I'd be curious to hear of a *real* example where identical creation
dates helped.  Just curious...

Ken

From: gilltell  <gtellier@c...>
Date: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:18am
Subject: Broken View+tip on Todo Link

Hello,

I'm kind of new in this forum

Broken View
I've searched the archive but could not find anything on this problem.
I'm using MegaWiki & Piki to launch Shadows databases, but whenever 
an item has a particular view format (saved custom view, different 
from the list) when the database is launched the specified view for 
the item does not work.

I've to do a soft reset to get back to the right view assigned for 
this item.

I do not know if it comes from MW or Shadow as this problem does not 
appear when I launch database from launcher (LaunchEm)

If anybody has anybody has a clue.
Thanks

Todo Tip
Maybe it has been already posted??? 
I hope it is not that I feel to have discover the moon while everyone 
was already looking at it.

I've noted that eventhough it seems that Shadow does not link to 
Shadow on an item basis you can manage this through link to Todos. 
Let says you have 2 lists of containing the same todo, and you want 
to be able to update the status (completed) in either of the list 
without having to do it in both list (which you would have to do if 
you're using a Filelink).
If the item is linked to do when you copy it, it will keep this link 
when pasted in a new list. So if you mark it as completed in either 
todo application or in one of the Shadow list it will be updated 
everywhere.


Gilles

From: scarlet_vx  <scarlet_vx@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:56am
Subject: Re: Fonts still not sticking

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2002, ::.jay.west wrote:
> 
> > Workflow on a Prism using 3.5.2 with all hacks disabled:
> > 
> > 1) Launch Shadow, open Preferences, switch to next window
> > 2) "Reset" current font settings (just to start with a clean 
slate)
> > 3) Leave Normal as is, switch Bold to large Palm OS standard 
font. Click OK.
> > 3) Click Ok to save prefs. Current list shows the font changes.
> > 4) Switch to another list and fonts stay with the new settings.
> > 5) Leave Shadow to TealPhone by hitting the Address hard button. 
It really
> > doesn't seem to matter which app I switch to, regardless I am not 
going
> > through my launcher (SilverScreen)
> > 6) Return to Shadow by hitting my ToDo hard button (mapped).
> > 7) Shadow loads the last list I had open and my bold font has 
reverted back
> > to the standard bold font and not the large one previously set.
> > 
> > I am stumped. Any other trouble shooting tips?
> 
> 	Nope; I think our best bet is to let me get dirty with it. IT
> sound slike a bug that afflicts only very specific units. I have 
a "safety
> reset fonts" routine that does sanity checks and resets the fonts to
> normal if it sees a problem.. chances are thats whats resetting 
you. The
> question is.. what does it think is not right here.
> 
> 	Anyway, you keep bugging me and I'll get to it in a bit (my
> development version is very mcuh in-transit right now :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:34am
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "madmaxmedia" <madmaxmedia@y...> wrote:
> What I'd like to do is be able to 
> modify formatting of different levels and have the changes applied 
> throughout the entire document- for example making all top-level 
> items bold, font size 18, etc.

Add the followings between the <head></head> tags:

<style>
  li {font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; font-size: 18pt}
  li li {font-family: Courier New; font-weight: normal; font-size: 
100%}
</style>    

Since you have the desktop, directly transforming the XML is even 
easier (no need to export to memopad and publish) and flexible.

From: wbornstein  <wbornstein@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:39pm
Subject: Tagging Children

I'm getting ready to convert to Shadow from another application and 
will be importing my action lists, which are organized by context.  
Is there a way to apply a tag to a parent in a way that then confers 
this tag to all the children?  As a corollary, is there a way to have 
all the children default to that tag.  I apologize if the answers are 
obvious.  I'm just getting started with Shadow.

Thanks.

Bill

From: w_higgs58  <bhiggs@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Critical Path Analysis

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Bob Pankratz <bob@r...> wrote:
 I do all of this in LifeBalance todo and it 
> works great.... (some of you may have read the stuff I write under 
the 
> alias of RATZ) .....BUT that system doesn't let me tell someone 
when the 

I'm courious, Bob, as a long time reader of your posts on LB, does 
this indicate a shift from LB to Shadow?

Also, how are your experiments with Shadow linking and Task line 
coming along?

Bill

From: madmaxmedia  <madmaxmedia@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 19, 2002 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

Thanks for the tip.

It helps a lot, but it's impossible to differentiate between memo 
text and the different heading levels. Memo text under a top-level 
heading will have the same text format of a second-level heading. I 
personally don't care, but I use Shadow to collect info that I'd 
like to present to others.

If the HTML export could just contain style names for the different 
levels and memo text, I think that would be easiest to manipulate.

Of course the Shadow XML file can be used, but I really don't know 
at this point how to do this. I'd like to do this with a WYSIWYG 
editor (I currently use Dreamweaver.)

Thanks,
Steve


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "mcmug1997" <Alex.Fung.Ho-
san+yahoo@g...> wrote:
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., "madmaxmedia" <madmaxmedia@y...> wrote:
> > What I'd like to do is be able to 
> > modify formatting of different levels and have the changes 
applied 
> > throughout the entire document- for example making all top-level 
> > items bold, font size 18, etc.
> 
> Add the followings between the <head></head> tags:
> 
> <style>
>   li {font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; font-size: 18pt}
>   li li {font-family: Courier New; font-weight: normal; font-size: 
> 100%}
> </style>    
> 
> Since you have the desktop, directly transforming the XML is even 
> easier (no need to export to memopad and publish) and flexible.

From: Bob Pankratz  <bob@r...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Critical Path Analysis

Hi Bill,

I up to a couple of initiatives.  I'm working on some new chapters for 
the book. The current efforts focuses on time-line specific planning. As 
with all my initiatives I LIVE the method in order to better understand 
it. I think it's important to really live it for a while before writing. 
Shadow's "disturbed" interface is hindering me at the moment; but I'll 
push through and Jeff see committed to correcting that in the future. 
I've actually got 3 palm pilots. 2 are always for testing and one for 
the current "LIVING System"  For reference I use a m505, a i705, and a 
Clie NR70v.  My main system is on the i705 right now; all my Shadow 
testing is on the Clie. I doing my planning in Shadow, but referring 
back to the i705 to make sure I've getting proper results. It's double 
book work; but it's amazingly enlightening.

The systems developed so far are:
(1) Datebk5
      (1a) Complete reproduction of the FC methodology. Using just 
Datebk5 (((AN compatible but watered down)))
      (1b) Complete GTD system again just using Datebk5

(2) Datebk5/LifeBalance
      (2a) Complete GTD System
      (2b) The every popular, A Basic Approach to the complex
      (2c) FC Compass and Quadrants
      (2d) Critical Path Analysis / GTD Hybrid  <<<<< Under construction
      (2e) Modular SAW that can be added to any of the above

(3) ThinkDb2 - Action List Manager

(4) Datebk5/Shadow <<<<<< All under construction
       (4a) Complete GTD System based on one outline ((Needs some 
correction/additions to the TAGs))
       (4b) Ctritical Path Anaylsis / GTD Hybrid
       (4c) TBD based on shadow experience


In the works
(a) a certain beta test
(b) waiting on next shadow desktop version; current crop not ready for 
my works
(c) discussion with timeline author about modification to cater to Palm 
crowd (preserving links) and a possible palm
version.
(d) a tool to export/import DBk5 view settings so they can been shared.

I'm currently considering abandoning the book and converting it into a 
website and publishing the entire contents that way. The website would 
be blatant advertising for the seminars, but all the information would 
be free for the taking. The trouble with the website is mostly 
structural; how to layout the content so it can be followed properly; 
I'm considering making it "article" like, with sample pdb's that have 
the article implemented for people to download.

Obviously all of this work has been slowed down by my daughter's 
problems; but I anticipate needing a "old-fashion" job for about another 
year and then this will be a full time venture.


On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 08:49 AM, w_higgs58 wrote:

> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Bob Pankratz <bob@r...> wrote:
>  I do all of this in LifeBalance todo and it
>> works great.... (some of you may have read the stuff I write under
> the
>> alias of RATZ) .....BUT that system doesn't let me tell someone
> when the
>
> I'm courious, Bob, as a long time reader of your posts on LB, does
> this indicate a shift from LB to Shadow?
>
> Also, how are your experiments with Shadow linking and Task line
> coming along?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Bob Pankratz
Director of Technology Services
Plexus Corp.
www.plexus.com
bob.pankratz@p...

"He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself."
-- Nietzsche

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:54am
Subject: Re: Request: "New items take sibling's TAGS"

> For example, suppose I had an item called "dentist: appt" 
> with "gHome", "pHealth" and "tDay" tags added. If the "New items 
> take sibling's tags" option were checked, and I added a new item 
> called "doctor: appt", it would already have the 
> tags "gHome", "pHealth", and "tDay" attached. If necessary I could 
> remove the "tDay" tag, but it would still be less work. When I'm 
> planning a multi-step project, I find myself going through the same 
> repetitive actions to add tags to each item over and over.
> 
> I hope this is a very minor enhancement, because it would be a very 
> major improvement given the way I'm using Shadow Plan.

	I'll see what I can do; added to my list. Hopefully recovered from
storm damage soon :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:56am
Subject: Re: Tags and Parents

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Kevin Brown wrote:

> Is there a way to hide untagged parents when filtering a list by tags?
> 
> I have a list of projects with an item for each project and sub-tasks
> as children. I'd like to be able to create a filter that shows me only
> the first task that I need to do on each of my projects. I can assign
> a tag called "next action" to the first task under each project, but
> if I filter by that tag my list still shows the parents, even though
> they don't have tags.

	Shadow cannot (currently) hide parents; when I designed it, I
firmly believed the ideal that a child has no context without its parents:

Project1
.	Research
.	Etc
.	Etc

	"Research" has no meaning without "Project1".

	However I know many people subscribe to the idea of embedding
context into the individual items. So right now you cannot hide parents,
though perhaps in the future.

> in handy as well.  (Of course, if it's a feature request, what I'd
> really want is some sort of fancy next action filter -- but I expect
> that's a bit too specialized.)

	There is a limited Next Action filter, but its not quite what you
want :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:06am
Subject: Re: Broken View+tip on Todo Link

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, gilltell wrote:

> Broken View
> I've searched the archive but could not find anything on this problem.
> I'm using MegaWiki & Piki to launch Shadows databases, but whenever 
> an item has a particular view format (saved custom view, different 
> from the list) when the database is launched the specified view for 
> the item does not work.

	You mean the view is always broken if you come in via MegaWiki,
but works if you launch normally? What Shadow version?

> I've to do a soft reset to get back to the right view assigned for
> this item.

	Soft reset? That doesn't sound appropriate.. only when you get a
crash?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:09am
Subject: Re: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, mcmug1997 wrote:

> > What I'd like to do is be able to 
> > modify formatting of different levels and have the changes applied 
> > throughout the entire document- for example making all top-level 
> > items bold, font size 18, etc.
> 
> Add the followings between the <head></head> tags:
> 
> <style>
>   li {font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; font-size: 18pt}
>   li li {font-family: Courier New; font-weight: normal; font-size: 
> 100%}
> </style>    
> 
> Since you have the desktop, directly transforming the XML is even 
> easier (no need to export to memopad and publish) and flexible.

	If you have time, it'd be neat if you could write up some sample
ideas, how-to's, tips, etc. Something for shadow-tips to tell us how to
add a couple of lines here or there, or what a simple xslt sheet looks
like, to do the transformation. (IE can do xslt transforms, but few know
anything about it)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:11am
Subject: Re: Tagging Children

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, wbornstein wrote:

> I'm getting ready to convert to Shadow from another application and
> will be importing my action lists, which are organized by context.  
> Is there a way to apply a tag to a parent in a way that then confers
> this tag to all the children?  As a corollary, is there a way to have
> all the children default to that tag.  I apologize if the answers are
> obvious.  I'm just getting started with Shadow.

	I could add a "copy tags to children" type operation... Anyone
have cool ideas?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, madmaxmedia wrote:

> It helps a lot, but it's impossible to differentiate between memo text
> and the different heading levels. Memo text under a top-level heading
> will have the same text format of a second-level heading. I personally
> don't care, but I use Shadow to collect info that I'd like to present
> to others.
> 
> If the HTML export could just contain style names for the different
> levels and memo text, I think that would be easiest to manipulate.

	I can't complicate the HTML too much; peopel often use it for
exporting via memos, and memos having a 4k limit are quite tight. On the
desktop, could add options perhaps.

> Of course the Shadow XML file can be used, but I really don't know at
> this point how to do this. I'd like to do this with a WYSIWYG editor
> (I currently use Dreamweaver.)

	Mmmm, Dreamweaver :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:15am
Subject: Re: Re: Critical Path Analysis

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Bob Pankratz wrote:

> I up to a couple of initiatives.  I'm working on some new chapters for 
> the book. The current efforts focuses on time-line specific planning. As 
> with all my initiatives I LIVE the method in order to better understand 
> it. I think it's important to really live it for a while before writing. 
> Shadow's "disturbed" interface is hindering me at the moment; but I'll 

	Let me know if you have a list of ideas. The UI needs work of
course, but its one of those things I've left as "needs work, but not yet
defined *what* work". IDeas are welcome!

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Bob Pankratz  <bob@r...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:55am
Subject: Re: Re: Critical Path Analysis

<GRIN>  Cool..... Witnesses.

The First Part is me learning all the interface tricks; then porting the 
systems/methods to line up with the features of the app. Then I'll have 
a framework to make fair comments. Shadow's like DBk4/5... there a lot 
of power in there once you figure it out.

That said there are a couple of comments already forming....

So far I've aborted 3 ports. Importing and TAGs are the biggest problem 
so far; they are too far buried in the interface, I'm going to use the 
Categories on TAGs once implemented; Importing has also been a pain 
because to effect porting, I need the import routine to import to a 
single outline; it currently creates 3 outlines even in registered mode. 
That means I've got to key everything in by hand. My plan was to setup a 
VPC session just to run the desktop version and do data entry there; but 
that doesn't have TAGs and my systems will be very very TAG centric. I'm 
actually thinking about looking at the XML and doing the raw import that 
way. The attraction there is I can share "system" templates with ppl 
that way.

And then there's drag and drop; It might be me, but it just doesn't work 
well, but based on the arrows on the tool bar I suspect others are 
struggling too.

However like I said; once I get to know it better I'll have better 
structured comments. I currently plan to devote 8 hours a week to shadow 
(not including email); but the interface makes me think I'm in need of a 
power session to get use to it. Now that there is a stowaway keyboard 
for the Clie NR70; I've got other options too....

On Monday, August 19, 2002, at 09:15 PM, Jeff Mitchell wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Bob Pankratz wrote:
>
>> I up to a couple of initiatives.  I'm working on some new chapters for
>> the book. The current efforts focuses on time-line specific planning. 
>> As
>> with all my initiatives I LIVE the method in order to better understand
>> it. I think it's important to really live it for a while before 
>> writing.
>> Shadow's "disturbed" interface is hindering me at the moment; but I'll
>
> 	Let me know if you have a list of ideas. The UI needs work of
> course, but its one of those things I've left as "needs work, but not 
> yet
> defined *what* work". IDeas are welcome!
>
> 		jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Bob Pankratz
Director of Technology Services
Plexus Corp.
www.plexus.com
bob.pankratz@p...

"He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself."
-- Nietzsche

From: tsuchy  <tsuchy@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 3:40am
Subject: Filtering Tags

I love the concept of tags, but using them right now seems a bit
difficult; one has to create an individual filter for each tag or set
of tags one would like to filter with.

A feature that would make tags instantly more usable (by me, anyway)
would be a quick-filter feature, which (perhaps) looks like the menus
that "Add Tag" generates, and allows the selection of any one tag, on
which it then filters exclusively. These filters could be temporary,
and perhaps a global option could determine if the list should contain
only tags that are used within that list.

This is similar to something that was mentioned about a wizard to
create a filter from a tag, and that's great, but it would clutter the
filter list if one uses a lot of tags.

perhaps this quick-filter method could act similarly to the clipboard,
where one could select only one tag, or add more tags to the dynamic,
temporary filter (like "hold one" vs. "hold many", maybe "tag-filter
one" vs. "tag-filter many").


Tom!

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 3:56am
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	If you have time, it'd be neat if you could write up some 
> sample
> ideas, how-to's, tips, etc. Something for shadow-tips to tell us 
> how to
> add a couple of lines here or there, or what a simple xslt sheet 
> looks
> like, to do the transformation. (IE can do xslt transforms, but few 
> know
> anything about it)

Glad to. I need real life examples and needs. Can somebody pass me a 
sample HTML and XML file (from HH and DT respectively) and tell me 
how they want it displayed?

Jeff, one potential problem (I haven't really checked on this) is the 
way the info is packed into the HTML. It seems that it is not easy to 
tell where the description ends and the note starts.

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 4:00am
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "madmaxmedia" <madmaxmedia@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for the tip.
> 
> It helps a lot, but it's impossible to differentiate between memo 
> text and the different heading levels. Memo text under a top-level 
> heading will have the same text format of a second-level heading. I 
> personally don't care, but I use Shadow to collect info that I'd 
> like to present to others.

It's big vague. Can you send me sample files so that I can see what's 
the problem?
 
> If the HTML export could just contain style names for the different 
> levels and memo text, I think that would be easiest to manipulate.

of course

 
> Of course the Shadow XML file can be used, but I really don't know 
> at this point how to do this. I'd like to do this with a WYSIWYG 
> editor (I currently use Dreamweaver.)

Oh, geeks use notepads to produces HTML.

Send the XML file as well. If the need is too complicated, it may be 
easiler to do it from the XML file.

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 4:02am
Subject: Re: Tagging Children

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	I could add a "copy tags to children" type operation... Anyone
> have cool ideas?

I think it is not a very frequent need to copy tags to children. If 
instead the tags information is available on the desktop, then we can 
bring all the scripting tools on windows to do this without 
overloading the HH program.

From: scarlet_vx  <scarlet_vx@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 5:01am
Subject: Fonts not sticking

Let me try this again... My message didn't take, although the old 
post I was looking at did!  I recently tried out mixed resolution 
mode on my Clie.  I love it, but I can't get a larger font size to 
stick after exiting Shadow.  Someone described the identical problem 
in a March post, except it was a different unit (I think a Handera).  
Jeff was going to continue to work on the problem.  I was wondering 
if it was ever solved.  Otherwise I'm a happy camper--but my eyes 
aren't quite as good with teeny-tiny fonts as when I was 20.  Thanks.

From: Steve Clarke  <sclarke@f...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 9:40am
Subject: Shadow projects & a bit of Gtd

Hello. After composing this message  I could not decide whether to post 
to discuss or tips. After the toss of a coin its down to discuss. All 
comments greatly appreciated.

I have been using shadow for about a year now and find it very useful 
for keeping tabs on all of my projects and actions. Before 2.5 I had a 
master list containing the project names with a file link to each 
individual project file. Each file has the format of
Definition
	--Statement of Requirements
Project Notes
	--Meeting Notes or ideas etc
Tasks
	--Next and further actions linked to TodoDB and categorised by context 
etc.

This worked well for a while except I could not see easily all ToDo 
items for related projects. I also got tired of switching between ToDo 
and shadow. It was also difficult to get notes down quickly on the fly 
as I had to find the appropriate shadow file and open it up etc.

With the release of 2.5 I am getting nearer to my ideal. After 
experimenting with tags I went for the one shadow file holding all 
projects with the format as

Project1
	-Definition
	-Notes
	-Tasks
Project2
	-Definition
	-Notes
	-Tasks

I have set up the project Headers as CustomView- Headers
Definition and Notes as Notes and Tasks as CustomView - Tasks

( I have noticed a thread on this group whereby the item view is lost 
after sync - I have experienced this as I think its because I have items 
of more than one custome view in the list)

This has also worked well except for the following limitations

Now that my project list exceeds 80 I need to limit the view of project 
headers such as status - Active, Someday/Maybe etc.

If I apply a filter either on the tagged project status I cannot then 
drill down into the appropriate project details as I only have these 
tags assigned to the project headers.

To get round this I have used the Zoom function to great effect.
 From my project list zoom into selected item. Remove the filter, view 
the whole project or assign another filter etc.

What would be nice here is when in zoom mode then have a forwards / 
backwards function to take me up and down the project list. Probably 
sounds strange and will only be used by me, but hey if you dont ask then 
you'll never get!!.

I would also like to view all my todo items from within shadow ( I like 
this app so much I dont want to go anywhere else like Todo etc if I can 
help it). Is there any plans on filtering on the items type so that I 
can set up a filter which will ignore note items. Icould add a tag 
called "task" to each of my todo items but that means more overhead when 
adding tasks. Alternatively could we have a option that New Items Copy 
siblings tags.

I still have the problem of getting notes/ ideas down into the relevent 
place fast enough, finding the project, zoom etc. One idea I am 
contemplating and I would appreciate anyones comments who have been down 
this route is the following

Change the layout of the shadow file to:
Definitions:
	-All Project definitions
Notes:
	-All Notes
Tasks:
	-All Tasks

Set up tags for each project and assign the project tag to each item. 
Therefore I add notes under the notes section and tag it with the 
appropriate project and likewise with tasks.
Will there be any significant performance hit when filtering using tags 
all the time on a Palm Vx 8Mb

Tia

Steve Clarke

From: jasondevilla  <devilla@u...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 9:25am
Subject: Re: ShadowPlan too much of a good thing...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "kevprice1" <kevinprice@u...> wrote:
> I today downloaded Bonsai and Progect to see which suits me best as 
a  replacement for ShadowPlan.  I registered Shadow a long time ago 
when  I was enthusiastic about it's capabilities and it's authors  
dedication.
 The programs has certainly evolved... a bit too far from the Zen of  
Palm... for me.  I'm finding a slight unintended touch to a list item 
can move it... requiring me to go find it to return it to it's proper 
place.  I also find configuring list item types and preferences 
too "choicey".
------------------------

Hmmm... I'm going in the opposite direction. Progect was my first 
outliner, and suited me fine until my task lists grew to sizes that 
left me wanting a desktop component for easier mangement (and the 
ability to share the lists with my office mates as exported files). 
That's why I got Bonsai, and registered it (it was the only outliner 
then that had a  good desktop component). Then I took another look at 
ShadowPlan 2.5 a week ago (my last peek was at one of the earlier 
versions, 1.xx), and realized that a desktop conduit was available, 
and registered my copy yesterday. Although the desktop needs a lot 
more work, it meets my basic needs so I'm ok with it.

My problem is how to move my lists from Bonsai to ShadowPlan. Since 
SahdowPlan Desktop has no import function and cannot read any other 
file format other than ShadowPlan XML files (am I mistaken here?), I 
tried to do it on the Palm. The only format SP can import is memo pad 
entries. I exported the Bonsai lists to the Memo Pad, and them import 
them into ShadowPlan, resulting in... a mess of an outline.

Could anyone suggest an easier way? I have two important lists, each 
with more than two dozen main tasks and about a hundred sub-tasks, 
and I hate the idea of having to re-create them in ShadowPlan from 
scratch.

My thanks in advance.

Jason

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 0:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Critical Path Analysis

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Bob Pankratz wrote:

> So far I've aborted 3 ports. Importing and TAGs are the biggest problem 
> so far; they are too far buried in the interface, I'm going to use the 
> Categories on TAGs once implemented; Importing has also been a pain 

	What needs implementing? We're still feeling around, since no one
has done this sort of thing before :) Two step tagging will hopefully go
in soon. Other tag ideas are needed.

> because to effect porting, I need the import routine to import to a 
> single outline; it currently creates 3 outlines even in registered mode. 

	I may increase the threshold. Not sure. Need testing -- the
threshold was there due to various problems in older units, and I'm not
sure if those issues were resolved, though it seems likely.

> That means I've got to key everything in by hand. My plan was to setup a 

	You can do the import, then use multipclip and "send to file" to
ship everything off to other files (to collapse everythign into
one). Still some work, but pretty handy.

> VPC session just to run the desktop version and do data entry there; but 
> that doesn't have TAGs and my systems will be very very TAG centric. I'm 
> actually thinking about looking at the XML and doing the raw import that 
> way. The attraction there is I can share "system" templates with ppl 
> that way.

	Yep; I actually routinely do simple imports that way -- see the
shadow-tip I posted months back. In essence, you can make a macro in no
time to put 1 line at the top of your file, one line at the bottom, and
<item>...</item> around your item text, and poof, you've got a valid
Shadow XML file you can send up. When I get time to write an import
module, that is more or less what it will do :)

> And then there's drag and drop; It might be me, but it just doesn't
> work well, but based on the arrows on the tool bar I suspect others
> are struggling too.

	ITs a unit by unit thing; some are more sensitive, and it *is* a
little too sensitive I expect. Wasn't much of an issue on older units and
low-res units. When peopel use micro fonts on high res and sensitive
units, it is much more illustrated.

> However like I said; once I get to know it better I'll have better
> structured comments. I currently plan to devote 8 hours a week to
> shadow (not including email); but the interface makes me think I'm in
> need of a power session to get use to it. Now that there is a stowaway
> keyboard for the Clie NR70; I've got other options too....

	NR70 uses yet another different connector? I've had a Stoaway for
N760c for ages. They really need to standardize the connector, or at least
provide adapters. Upgrading handhelds is fine, but everyone then needs to
buy a new keygboard, new expansion media (like memory sticks), etc. Very
expensive and prohibitive :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 0:06pm
Subject: Re: Filtering Tags

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, tsuchy wrote:

> I love the concept of tags, but using them right now seems a bit
> difficult; one has to create an individual filter for each tag or set
> of tags one would like to filter with.
> 
> A feature that would make tags instantly more usable (by me, anyway)
> would be a quick-filter feature, which (perhaps) looks like the menus
> that "Add Tag" generates, and allows the selection of any one tag, on
> which it then filters exclusively. These filters could be temporary,
> and perhaps a global option could determine if the list should contain
> only tags that are used within that list.

	Sometime I hope to add a Tag Wizard or Quick Tag as you suggest.
I'm holding off on that (likely) as I owe the desktop side some fixes and
improvements.

> This is similar to something that was mentioned about a wizard to
> create a filter from a tag, and that's great, but it would clutter the
> filter list if one uses a lot of tags.

	It would create a filter, but not save it. By leaving the list,
the instant filter woudl be lost.

> perhaps this quick-filter method could act similarly to the clipboard,
> where one could select only one tag, or add more tags to the dynamic,
> temporary filter (like "hold one" vs. "hold many", maybe "tag-filter
> one" vs. "tag-filter many").

	Interesting idea; just keeping adding tags to the instant filter,
to refine the list. Thats pretty cool.

		jeff


--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, mcmug1997 wrote:

> Jeff, one potential problem (I haven't really checked on this) is the 
> way the info is packed into the HTML. It seems that it is not easy to 
> tell where the description ends and the note starts. 

	I could modify the layout a little if needed. I think there was
some <br> or <p> in there somwwhere for that purpose? If theres no<p>
tags, I shoudl add 'em :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 0:09pm
Subject: Re: Fonts not sticking

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, scarlet_vx wrote:

> Let me try this again... My message didn't take, although the old post
> I was looking at did!  I recently tried out mixed resolution mode on
> my Clie.  I love it, but I can't get a larger font size to stick after
> exiting Shadow.  Someone described the identical problem in a March
> post, except it was a different unit (I think a Handera).  Jeff was
> going to continue to work on the problem.  I was wondering if it was
> ever solved.  Otherwise I'm a happy camper--but my eyes aren't quite
> as good with teeny-tiny fonts as when I was 20.  Thanks.

	Iv'e not been able to determine a cause yet; it is sufficiently
rtare where I cannot seem to reproduce it, even on the same type of unit
someone has a problem with. Theres *something* about the unit in question
that causes Shadow to think the fonts are bad and "reset" its stored font
settings. (ie: If you delete fonts that you depend on, Shadow goes back to
built ins to ensure things still look halfway right). IF we have any
ideas, let me know :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 0:15pm
Subject: Re: Shadow projects & a bit of Gtd

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Steve Clarke wrote:

> To get round this I have used the Zoom function to great effect.
>  From my project list zoom into selected item. Remove the filter, view 
> the whole project or assign another filter etc.
> 
> What would be nice here is when in zoom mode then have a forwards /
> backwards function to take me up and down the project list. Probably
> sounds strange and will only be used by me, but hey if you dont ask
> then you'll never get!!.

	Various requests along this line have been made. But yours is a
little mroe refined.. it could be possibly to add to the [V] menu item a
"Zoom Walk Up" and "Zoom Walk Down" option or the like.. where if you're
zoomed to XX level, hitting Zoom walk Up would then zoom to the items
parent (or remove zoom, if at second level). I guess "Zoom Down" isn't
needed, as you can already "Zoom Into", so thats covered.

> I would also like to view all my todo items from within shadow ( I
> like this app so much I dont want to go anywhere else like Todo etc if
> I can help it). Is there any plans on filtering on the items type so
> that I can set up a filter which will ignore note items. Icould add a
> tag called "task" to each of my todo items but that means more
> overhead when adding tasks. Alternatively could we have a option that
> New Items Copy siblings tags.

	I think I'll add "new items copies siblings tags" pref; it makes
sense here. Custom filter on item-type is entirely possible, but a little
work (the c-filter engine doesn't currently know about item-type or hwo to
display a pick-list of it, etc). I suppose that woudl be taken care of by
the pref, anyway, since it woudl not receive the Task pref.

> I still have the problem of getting notes/ ideas down into the
> relevent place fast enough, finding the project, zoom etc. One idea I
> am contemplating and I would appreciate anyones comments who have been
> down this route is the following
> 
> Change the layout of the shadow file to:
> Definitions:
> 	-All Project definitions
> Notes:
> 	-All Notes
> Tasks:
> 	-All Tasks
> 
> Set up tags for each project and assign the project tag to each item. 
> Therefore I add notes under the notes section and tag it with the 
> appropriate project and likewise with tasks.

	Seems conceptually to function. We need more experiences from
people :)

> Will there be any significant performance hit when filtering using
> tags all the time on a Palm Vx 8Mb

	Vx is pretty quick (I don't know wjhy, but I'm alwatys impressed
by that little unit!) so shoudl be okay, depending on the size of your
list and the number of tags in your tag database. ie: If you have hundreds
f tags, you may notice something.. however, my tag system seems to have
worked out very well. Not a single speed of display comment yet :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 0:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: ShadowPlan too much of a good thing...

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, jasondevilla wrote:

> SahdowPlan Desktop has no import function and cannot read any other
> file format other than ShadowPlan XML files (am I mistaken here?), I
> tried to do it on the Palm. The only format SP can import is memo pad
> entries. I exported the Bonsai lists to the Memo Pad, and them import
> them into ShadowPlan, resulting in... a mess of an outline.

	Depends on how Bonsai exports to the memopad; each program exports
differently, so Shadow makes some very simple guesses to attempt an
import, often with good effect. Anyway,

	What formats can Bonsai's desktop export? Shadow desktop works in
terms of XML, and I hope to add some basic imports sometime. However,
thats a major undertaking, since theres a million ways a program coudl do
an export :/

	However, XML is very forgiving; you can pretty easily make macros
to translate simple files into Shadow XML files. IF you can post the
bonsai export format, and its internally consistent, we can prolly work
something out pretty easily. 

	There is an early Shadow-tip on how to do basic textfile
importing, as well, that I wrote months ago.

> Could anyone suggest an easier way? I have two important lists, each
> with more than two dozen main tasks and about a hundred sub-tasks, and
> I hate the idea of having to re-create them in ShadowPlan from
> scratch.

	We'll work you out :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: cavande2  <cavande2@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:27pm
Subject: Brainforest vs. Shadow need help deciding

I've had Brainforest for about 1.5 years. Eventually I got so 
frustrated with it (Their tech support was not very helpful.) that I 
quit using it. I've been doing everything in Life Balance which 
overloads it. I'd like to move some of that info out into a outliner.

I've heard a lot of good things about Shadowplan and it seems to work 
very easily even without looking in the manual. Looking at this forum, 
it seems that help is very good.

I'm leaning toward Shadowplan just based on that info. The tech 
support alone is a big issue. But my checkbook is telling me I already 
own an Outliner so why do I want to switch?

So, I was wondering if there were any people who've switched over from 
Brainforest why they did. 

Thanks for any help.
Colleen

From: ::.jay.west  <email@j...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:07pm
Subject: Re: Fonts not sticking

Hi Jeff,
I was having this fonts not sticking problem earlier with my Prism running
OS 3.5.3. Specified fonts, exited Shadow and came back and the fonts would
revert to the system fonts.

Last month my Prism hard reset for no particular reason and I needed to
reinstall everything from the backup. After that my fonts stuck properly.
Not sure what was different after the hard reset although I did need to
re-register Shadow and set all the general prefs again so I guess some
corrupt prefs file or fonts were trashed in the process?

That was my experience and work-around I guess...

j.




> From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Reply-To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:09:13 -0400 (EDT)
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Fonts not sticking
> 
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, scarlet_vx wrote:
> 
>> Let me try this again... My message didn't take, although the old post
>> I was looking at did!  I recently tried out mixed resolution mode on
>> my Clie.  I love it, but I can't get a larger font size to stick after
>> exiting Shadow.  Someone described the identical problem in a March
>> post, except it was a different unit (I think a Handera).  Jeff was
>> going to continue to work on the problem.  I was wondering if it was
>> ever solved.  Otherwise I'm a happy camper--but my eyes aren't quite
>> as good with teeny-tiny fonts as when I was 20.  Thanks.
> 
> Iv'e not been able to determine a cause yet; it is sufficiently
> rtare where I cannot seem to reproduce it, even on the same type of unit
> someone has a problem with. Theres *something* about the unit in question
> that causes Shadow to think the fonts are bad and "reset" its stored font
> settings. (ie: If you delete fonts that you depend on, Shadow goes back to
> built ins to ensure things still look halfway right). IF we have any
> ideas, let me know :)
> 
> jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 3:32pm
Subject: Re: Fonts not sticking

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, ::.jay.west wrote:

> I was having this fonts not sticking problem earlier with my Prism running
> OS 3.5.3. Specified fonts, exited Shadow and came back and the fonts would
> revert to the system fonts.
> 
> Last month my Prism hard reset for no particular reason and I needed
> to reinstall everything from the backup. After that my fonts stuck
> properly. Not sure what was different after the hard reset although I
> did need to re-register Shadow and set all the general prefs again so
> I guess some corrupt prefs file or fonts were trashed in the process?

	Possible; or some third party app that was wrestling with us?

> That was my experience and work-around I guess...

	We'll figure it out one of these days :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bstryd610  <bstryd@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 5:35pm
Subject: Trouble with Next Step filter

I am having trouble with the Next Step filter. I have a top level 
item (among several top level items) that has four sub items, each 
of the subs with level three items. The top level and the level two 
items are task types and all level three items are checklist type. 
When I expand all and select the Next Step filter, only two of the 
four level two items appear. The two that appear have the correct 
next step item showing. The other two do not show at all. When I 
select that top level item and zoom into the selection, expand all 
and select the next step filter, the same thing happens. Any help or 
suggestions out there?  Thanks.

Bruce

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Brainforest vs. Shadow need help deciding

2002-08-20 14:27: cavande2 <cavande2@y...> is believed to have
typed:

> So, I was wondering if there were any people who've switched over from 
> Brainforest why they did. 

The only thing that is better with Brainforest is that they have a Mac
desktop (and that it's AppleScriptable) otherwise Shadowplan is better
no matter what you discuss. I switched from Brainforest to Shadowplan
about 1.5 year ago ... or so, never regretted it. I'm currently using LB
together with Shadowplan and the only reason I currently have
Brainforest installed is that I can export simple lists from Shadowplan
to memo pad and then import it into Brainforest and move it to my
desktop 8-)

                        jem
-- 
Jan Erik Moström   jem@m...    www.mostrom.pp.se

From: madmaxmedia  <madmaxmedia@y...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 0:18am
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

Hi guys, thanks for the help- I really appreciate it.

I uploaded 2 sample files. One is the original XML file, and the 
other is an HTML file generated from Shadow Desktop. Perhaps I 
wasn't very clear before, but I just want better formatting of HTML 
files created from the Desktop program (I didn't know the PDA 
program could do exporting.)

If you take a look at the HTML file, I added those tags that 
mcmug1997 suggested. The problem is that I can't assign a particular 
style (let's say 10 pt. Times) for all memo text- it just takes the 
formatting of the 'next level' style. So different headings could 
take different styles based on whether the heading above it had some 
memo text.

Thanks,
Steve

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, mcmug1997 wrote:
> 
> > Jeff, one potential problem (I haven't really checked on this) 
is the 
> > way the info is packed into the HTML. It seems that it is not 
easy to 
> > tell where the description ends and the note starts. 
> 
> 	I could modify the layout a little if needed. I think there 
was
> some <br> or <p> in there somwwhere for that purpose? If theres 
no<p>
> tags, I shoudl add 'em :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Laurie Leonard  <lleonard@m...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:37am
Subject: Brainforest

I just switched from Brainforest to ShadowPlan and I'm very happy. I
recently bought a Handera and Brainforest has problems on it that BF tech
support could not solve.  I was devastated because my whole life is on
Brainforest and Bonsai and To-Do Plus were not even close to adequate for my
needs.  I ran across ShadowPlan and tried it and now I'm happy Brainforest
didn't work, because it allowed me to discover ShadowPlan, which is much
better.  The ShadowPlan manual even tells you how to import your BrainForest
files into ShadowPlan.


On 8/20/02 11:11 AM, "shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com"
<shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Message: 24
>  Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:27:24 -0000
>  From: "cavande2" <cavande2@y...>
> Subject: Brainforest vs. Shadow need help deciding
> 
> I've had Brainforest for about 1.5 years. Eventually I got so
> frustrated with it (Their tech support was not very helpful.) that I
> quit using it. I've been doing everything in Life Balance which
> overloads it. I'd like to move some of that info out into a outliner.
> 
> I've heard a lot of good things about Shadowplan and it seems to work
> very easily even without looking in the manual. Looking at this forum,
> it seems that help is very good.
> 
> I'm leaning toward Shadowplan just based on that info. The tech
> support alone is a big issue. But my checkbook is telling me I already
> own an Outliner so why do I want to switch?
> 
> So, I was wondering if there were any people who've switched over from
> Brainforest why they did.
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> Colleen

From: scarlet_vx  <scarlet_vx@y...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 2:54am
Subject: Wish list: enhanced clip, build on Next Step Only for custom filters

Three things on my nice-to-have list.
1) I appreciate the "set hold many" and "send to file" functions,but 
is there any possibility of someday being able to send everything in 
a filtered view to the clip?  Or, be able to select more than one 
item at a time before sending to clip?  "Send all checked to clip" 
type options are helpful, but it would be nice to be able to exclude 
checked items that are not in the current view.
2) I'd like to be able to use "Next Step Only" as part of my custom 
filters.  I can't figure out how to specify "show only the first 
unchecked item on a sublevel" from scratch.
3) I'd like to see other dates, esp. finish date, as options for 
custom views.
I can be patient.  This program is awesome!

From: jasondevilla  <devilla@u...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:08am
Subject: Moving from Bonsai to ShadowPlan

Thanks for the reply, Jeff. I'll look up the early tips you 
mentioned. To answer some of your questions:

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
What formats can Bonsai's desktop export?
>> It exports to csv, txt, and html formats.
 
Could anyone suggest an easier way? I have two important lists, each 
with more than two dozen main tasks and about a hundred sub-tasks, 
and I hate the idea of having to re-create them in ShadowPlan from 
scratch.
 
We'll work you out :)
 
 		jeff
>> Thanks. What I'm trying to do now is to export the Bonsai files as 
HTML, clean up the tabls and other stuff up in Word, and then save it 
as a Quickword file. Then from Quickword I export them to the Memo 
Pad, and import them into ShadowPlan. Pretty roundabout way of doing 
it, but I've done it for some shorter lists, and I will work on my 
longest lists in a few days.

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:45am
Subject: Re: Desktop feature request- HTML styles?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, mcmug1997 wrote:
> > Jeff, one potential problem (I haven't really checked on this) 
> > is the 
> > way the info is packed into the HTML. It seems that it is not 
> > easy to 
> > tell where the description ends and the note starts. 
> 
>I could modify the layout a little if needed. I think there was
> some <br> or <p> in there somwwhere for that purpose? 

I think it is a <br>. I can't detect BRs in HTML. If I remember 
correctly, the XML has its own note tag.

To be explicit, I suggest <span class="note">...</span>.

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:52am
Subject: Suggestion about Next Step filter

Not really related to Bruce's original question on next Step Filter, 
but it led to my thoughts.

I suggest having a general way to specify the "next step". In my 
list, some trees are serial processes, ie I don't look at 2nd step 
before first is completed. Others are parallel processes, ie I need 
to look at all children. Therefore I cannot use the next step filter. 
What I need is a way to tell some trees to only show the first child 
not yet completed.

I think one way to implement this is to have a new setting for "start 
time". The new value is "target date of previous event". Therefore, 
whenever I adjust the target date of step 3, the start date of step 4 
will move accordingly. By filtering on the start date (which I am 
doing in nearly all filters), step 4 won't appear until step 3 is 
completed.

However, this also requires the extra logic/option to reset target 
date to the actual completion date, or step 4 won't appear even if 
step 3 is completed in advance.

What do you think?

From: mcmug1997  <Alex.Fung.Ho-san+yahoo@g...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:55am
Subject: Re: Wish list: enhanced clip, build on Next Step Only for custom filters

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "scarlet_vx" <scarlet_vx@y...> wrote:

> is there any possibility of someday being able to send everything 
> in a filtered view to the clip?  

yes yes. 

> Or, be able to select more than one 
> item at a time before sending to clip?  "Send all checked to clip" 
> type options are helpful, but it would be nice to be able to 
> exclude checked items that are not in the current view.

yes, I got a nasty surprise when the checked items excluded by the 
filter are unchecked and sent away.

> 2) I'd like to be able to use "Next Step Only" as part of my custom 
> filters.  I can't figure out how to specify "show only the first 
> unchecked item on a sublevel" from scratch.

probably because it can't be done. Refer to my related suggestion.

> 3) I'd like to see other dates, esp. finish date, as options for 
> custom views.

Just saw this interesting option in Bonsai yesterday. It can display 
those fields and filter on them. But is it really useful?

From: Chris  <chris@p...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:56am
Subject: Re: Re: Wish list: enhanced clip, build on Next Step Only for custom filters

>> 3) I'd like to see other dates, esp. finish date, as options for 
>> custom views.
> 
> Just saw this interesting option in Bonsai yesterday. It can display 
> those fields and filter on them. But is it really useful?


Personally I could see using something like finished date to generate time-
sheets and project reports. "We  task 1 started August 12 and finished on 
August 13, task 2 started August 13 and finished August 15, and task 3 
started August 15 and finished the same day, we will be billing you for 4 
days of our time."

If you hold to the ideas of XP Programming you could track your Iteration 
Story Completion rate by simply pulling a view on the finished dates to 
show only a specific week/iteration and then counting the number of items 
completed. Of course you could filter on this as well, but without being 
able to "show" the dates there's really no way to (easily) make sure the 
filter was correct.

Just some ideas.
-Chris

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Wish list: enhanced clip, build on Next Step Only for custom filters

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, scarlet_vx wrote:

> 1) I appreciate the "set hold many" and "send to file" functions,but
> is there any possibility of someday being able to send everything in a
> filtered view to the clip?  Or, be able to select more than one item
> at a time before sending to clip?  "Send all checked to clip"  type
> options are helpful, but it would be nice to be able to exclude
> checked items that are not in the current view.

	I'm not sure a "Copy all visible to clip" is a good idea
(clipboard going to 3MB coudl be bad ;), but it is interesting.. since of
course with custom filters you can define your view carefully, then use
copy-visible-to-clip to send it all to the clip.. pretty powerful
there. Added to my list.

> 2) I'd like to be able to use "Next Step Only" as part of my custom
> filters.  I can't figure out how to specify "show only the first
> unchecked item on a sublevel" from scratch.

	Yeah, I've been hoping to add the ability to refer to built in
filters from a custom fitler rule; however, if the only thing you cannot
build well is "next step only", I could perhaps just create a rule for
that.. much easier.

> 3) I'd like to see other dates, esp. finish date, as options for
> custom views.

	Yep; already on my list :)

> I can be patient.  This program is awesome!

	Thanks!

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: alwaysenuf  <alwaysenuf@y...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 1:05pm
Subject: Re: filtered export

I'd love to see this option.  It would be incredibly useful for the 
tracking of projects based on tags.  Currently to maximize the 
benefits of tags, I have much stuff in ONE list..but to export the 
whole list makes this ugly.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Corey Colyer wrote:
> 
> > Greetings group,
> 
> 	Howdi :)
> 
> > Can I export a filtered list?

From: Anthony Schellenberg  <aschell2000@h...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: Critical Path Analysis

>From: Bob Pankratz <bob@r...>

>The systems developed so far are:
>(1) Datebk5
>       (1a) Complete reproduction of the FC methodology. Using just
>Datebk5 (((AN compatible but watered down)))
>       (1b) Complete GTD system again just using Datebk5
>
snip
>
>(4) Datebk5/Shadow <<<<<< All under construction
>        (4a) Complete GTD System based on one outline ((Needs some
>correction/additions to the TAGs))
>        (4b) Ctritical Path Anaylsis / GTD Hybrid
>        (4c) TBD based on shadow experience
snip
>I'm currently considering abandoning the book and converting it into a
>website and publishing the entire contents that way.

Wow, this sounds really interesting.  Is any of this information already 
available?  I'd love to find out more about how you've done the GTD setup on 
Dtbk5 or Dtbk5/Shadow.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

From: w_higgs58  <bhiggs@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:06pm
Subject: So Close Yet...

This is an open post be placed on Bonsai, Life Balance, Shadow, and 
Palm GTD boards.


I am a registered owner of all three products.  And I have spent a 
great amount of time continually switching from one product to the 
other, in hopes that this time it would meet my needs. All three of 
the main outliners/PIMs have great functions, yet they are all 
lacking.  I am going to attempt to spell out what I am looking for in 
an outliner, what each out liner does well, and what IMHO what it 
does not do well, in hopes that one of the three major players will 
be able to pull off my version of a perfect Outliner/PIM.


The Perfect Outliner/PIM would have (according to me):


1. An easy way to import, export, and link tasks and date book items 
without the need of third party products.  I am too good at 
procrastinating.  I don't want to spend all day making a
convoluted mix of three or four products.  Some of the 
implementations of GTD that I've read would be a full time job
just 
keeping the system up to date.  I want to be able to use just the 
outliner and the standard apps, with the possible exception of using 
ToDo Plus to handle the repeating tasks.


2. A usable desktop component that is at least as powerful if not 
more powerful than the palm application.  Let's face it, the palm
is great for mobile input and viewing of data, but if you want to be 
able to quickly put in a lot of data, organize it and view it you 
need a key board and the screen real-estate of a computer.  I've 
tried a palm keyboard and returned it.  The PPK has limited 
functionality, and plus I just felt too Geeky using it.  And that 
says a lot coming from a Computer Engineer who has glasses and wears 
a cell phone, pager, and Palm Pilot on his belt. 


3. An easy way to review projects, assigns next actions, and see what 
projects do not have next actions.  And more importantly and easy way 
to click off a task from my tasks list, and then correlate that back 
to the project to assign the new next action.


4. A powerful outliner, with powerful sorts and filters, that is easy 
to move items around in.  Zoom capabilities and Parentless filtering 
are also desired.


5. Hi-Res and Jog Wheel support.  I have a HandEra 330, and even 
though it is mostly cosmetic, it bothers me to use apps that do not 
take advantage of its capabilities.  Once you get used to it, the 
normal sized screen looks cramp, and you hate using the up down 
buttons opposed to the jog wheel.  (Okay, this one may seem petty, 
but it's true).



-----Bonsai----


Bonsai has the best desktop around and I've really tried to make
it work.  Even when I stop using Bonsai for my projects I still use 
it for note taking and mobile-brain functions.  It looks beautiful on 
my HandEra as it is the only one that supports the Hi-Res it and it 
has jog wheel support.  The outliner has good capabilities with a 
decent filter.  I find that I heavily use the 1-5 buttons to quickly 
open and collapse the 5 different levels of the outline.


What I find lacking in Bonsai, is that its screen interface is 
static.  Since Bonsai allows true on screen editing, it does not 
allow you to zoom into lower levels.  Once I load up my 130+ 
projects, even with filtering, it is hard to drill down and see what 
is important to you.  When you can't isolate, or drill down the 
outline becomes like billboards on a highway, you see all of them, 
but you don't really see any of them.  I will spend considerable
time inputting all my data, but then it still looks like a glob of 
information with nothing standing out.  


If Bonsai would institute the ability to zoom in, parentless 
filtering, and a way to link back from a task on my task list to its 
appropriate place on the outline, it will fill the gaps and become 
my "Perfect Outliner"


May be now, I should explain what I mean by zooming in and parentless 
filters.  A normal outline would look like this:


Level 1
..Level 1.2
....Level 1.2.1
....Level 1.2.2
......Level 1.2.2.1
......Level 1.2.2.2
..Level 2.2
....Level 2.2.1
....Level 2.2.2


If I were to zoom inside of Level 1.2, (as I can with Shadow) I would 
be able to concentrate on ONLY the following without being distracted 
by the rest of the outline clutter:


Level 1.2.1
..Level 1.2.2
....Level 1.2.2.1
....Level 1.2.2.2


By Parentless filtering, using the above example, if Level 1.2.1 and 
Level 2.2.2 met the condition of my filter, Bonsai (and Shadow) would 
show it as:


Level 1
..Level 1.2
....Level 1.2.1
..Level 2.2
....Level 2.2.2


So that even though, all I want to see is Level 1.2.1 and Level 
2.2.2, I still have to the clutter of the other three items.  
Parentless filtering--and so far "Progect" is the only one
capable of this—I ONLY would see:


Level 1.2.1
Level 2.2.2


---Life Balance---


Life Balance is really more than just an outliner.  It has the best 
automatic import and export functions of the three. As it replaces 
the ToDo list, it is the only one that will automatically give you 
your next action on a project once you click off a task.  And it is 
the only one that gives me an incentive to do the daily little things 
I want to do to improve myself.  A desktop is in the works, but no 
date of when it will be available.


Life Balance's drawback is first and foremost its outliner. 
While LB is not trying to compete as an outliner, you do end up 
spending most of your time there, and it's is severely lacking.  
While they do have an easy way to move data around, there is no way 
to filter, sort your outlines or see how you have set up the priority 
and places.  LB can be very powerful, but it there are also hundreds 
of reasons why your data will not show up when you think it will.  
Therefore it's hard to trust.    


Also--and I realize this is a nit—I don't like the LB tags
that it puts into all the notes.  I use Outlook and Exchange at work, 
if I invite someone to a meeting, or assign a task; I have to 
remember to delete the LB38547422540743119 tag from the note.  This 
also defeats the "note" symbol in the built in applications
as all 
your tasks have "notes".


And LB does not support Hi-res.



---Shadow---


Shadow is the best and the worst and it's the one I'm using
now.  Shadow has by far the best palm outliner.  It has the most 
powerful filters, highlights and manual linking capabilities.  I find 
I don't mind the Shadow tags.  Yes I still need to delete them
like I 
do LB if I'm sending them out, and yes, they defeat the
"note"
symbol.  But they are usable by me, not just the program.  I can look 
at a task on Outlook, or if I'm using my Palm, click on the link
and 
it puts me  back in the correct place of the correct outline.  Very 
cool for checking off a task and seeing what the next action is.  
Shadow also supports Zoom outlining.


Shadow is lacking in its desktop. They have one…sorta…and
it's a little scary to use.  The new one is in the works. 
I'm finding
it hard to move around in the outline, and end up scrolling up 
several screens to collapse the parent item.  And even though it was 
promised in Shadow 2.2, it does not support HandEra Hi-res.  Shadow 
has a flat-outline view, and a next item filter, but it doesn't 
really do Parentless filtering as "Progect" does.


---------------------------------------------

So, what's the perfect outliner?  It has:

Bonsai's desktop
Bonsai's HandEra support
Bonsai's level 1-5 buttons for easy opening and collapsing of 
different levels of the outline

Life Balance's auto-import and export

Shadow's Outliner and linking capabilities
Shadow's Zoom Function

Progect's Parentless filtering
           

I have supported all three outliners and will continue to do so.  The 
first one to get all of them WINS.


-Bill

From: Brandon Blackmoor  <bblackmoor@b...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 6:26pm
Subject: Re: So Close Yet...

w_higgs58 <bhiggs@s...>:
> 
> The Perfect Outliner/PIM would have (according to me):
> 
> 1. An easy way to import, export, and link tasks and date 
> book items without the need of third party products.

Personally, I have no use for this. I can push the "Datebook" button if I want
to see my calendar.

> 2. A usable desktop component that is at least as powerful if not 
> more powerful than the palm application.

I don't know about "more powerful", but one that works without corrupting my
data would be nice.

> 3. An easy way to review projects, assigns next actions, and 
> see what projects do not have next actions.

See #1.

> 4. A powerful outliner, with powerful sorts and filters, 
> that is easy to move items around in.  Zoom capabilities 
> and Parentless filtering are also desired.

Parentless? That doesn't even make sense. Other than that, this sounds good.

> 5. Hi-Res and Jog Wheel support.

They're both nonstandard, so I think that's an unreasonable demand, but I do
appreciate the extent to which Shadow supports them (I have a Clie).

bblackmoor@b...
2002-08-21

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:03pm
Subject: Re: So Close Yet...

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, w_higgs58 wrote:

> This is an open post be placed on Bonsai, Life Balance, Shadow, and 
> Palm GTD boards.

	For fun: :)

	Bonsai		$24.95 (windows + palm)
	Life Balance	$39 Palm, $79 Palm+Desktop (Mac/Windows)
	Shadow		$12.99 Palm, $19.99 Win+Palm, Free Updates
	Thought Manager	$19.99 Palm, $39.99 Palm+Windows

	LB seems very high; did I see the wrong part of their website?

	That must also be factored into the picture, if your'e doing a
cross compaer. (Nicely done, too. Its tough on users, for sure, to
choose!)

	Shadow is the best outliner/handheld. Bonsai is the best desktop.
Life Balance is plain cool, and may be what some people need, and is often
used along side of the other outliners.

	Best value? Clearly Shadow followed by Bonsai -- my desktop is
lagging. Fine, I'm one guy, it happens, and I'm working on it and have no
regrets. But considering prices, those guys should all be superior to
Shadow a couple times over -- yet, are far behind on the handheld. They
shoudl be ashamed ;)

	Whose doing it right/ We have the best process here, but Bonsai
had a better start on the desktop (Shadow and Bonsai came out to market
within 2 weeks of each other). They have a couple of extra guys, however
;) Course, Shadow Desktop delivers as designed -- it is 80% of what 80% of
people *need* (not what they want, but what they need). I'm working on the
rest..l just had setbacks due to various companies screwing around on we
lowly Palm OS developers :)

	Anyway, great post. I just thought I'd add pricing to the mix for
laughs, here :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: w_higgs58  <bhiggs@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:44pm
Subject: Re: So Close Yet...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	For fun: :)
> 
> 	Bonsai		$24.95 (windows + palm)
> 	Life Balance	$39 Palm, $79 Palm+Desktop (Mac/Windows)
> 	Shadow		$12.99 Palm, $19.99 Win+Palm, Free Updates
> 	Thought Manager	$19.99 Palm, $39.99 Palm+Windows
> 
> 	LB seems very high; did I see the wrong part of their website?
> 
> 	That must also be factored into the picture, if your'e doing a
> cross compaer. (Nicely done, too. Its tough on users, for sure, to
> choose!)
> 
> 	Shadow is the best outliner/handheld. Bonsai is the best 
desktop.
> Life Balance is plain cool, and may be what some people need, and 
is often
> used along side of the other outliners.

Jeff, I agree completly that Shadow is the best value and Outliner. 
And that is why I've been spending the last two days migrating back 
to it.  I didn't mention price, because that was not my focus 
(besides I've paid for all of them except Thoght Manager and LB 
desktop). 

I also migrated because I belive that Shadow has the best chance of 
getting to the "Perfect Outliner" as defined by me.  (However much 
weight that carries.)  Once you get the desktop up to date, 
add "paren