From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 0:57pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

So, to have saved view remove a currently applied filter...we'd have 
to check "Filter" and then choose the "No Filter" filter? Wow, read 
that ten times fast <G>.

Liveable...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Perhaps I should change it so instead of "All" is shows "No
> Filter"?
> 
> 		jeff
>

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Russ & Ling" <rnlnero@y...> wrote:
> 
> I thought we *are* debating what Shadow should do in the first 
place :)
> With built-in views, Shadow's established behavior is not to 
remove your
> current filter.

Well...in a way we were...approaching it from a coding perspective I 
just see some natural things Shadow should do...in terms of keeping 
code consistent and all.

> > I think the best solution is a checkbox within a view 
called "Remove
> > Filter on Apply" or some such. It's obvious what that would
> > do...it's not a work around...it'd satisfy many.
> >
> 
> It takes one tap to check that new box.  It takes one tap to check 
the
> 'Filter' box now (since it defaults to 'All').  Both does the same 
thing and
> neither would be a kludge.
> 

The difference is semantics I realize...purely cosmetic in a geeky 
sort of way. Both do do the same...it's just an appearance 
thing...not a big deal...Jeff seems to have already 
decided...interesting debate tho.

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:44pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Michael Rudnick <egroups@R...> wrote:

> Based on the comments, I think you should keep the existing
> functionality. I *do* recommend that you change the description of 
the
> checkbox so it's clear that unchecked keeps the filter and checked
> allows a specific filter or no filter.


I agree.  For me views are more useful if they include filters. 

I suspect those who switch from outline to outline with the same 
filter must be using Shadow for a narrower range of purposes.  I use 
Shadow for widely varying purposes and the current filter is often 
irrelevant to the next outline I view.

Not to mention when I'm working in one outline, then temporarily 
switch to a different one then back again.  

(I have no opinion on the "built-ins", I have a feeling I will be 
using them less now that there are custom views)

Switching "all" to "no-filter" makes sense to me too.

Gerry

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:15pm
Subject: Beta feedback: minor glitch in highlighting on file list

Almost too minor to mention, but in case its helpful:

I now display the list of outlines using the alternating colors.  
Occasionally when I tap on a colored row, instead of the entire row 
being highlighted,just the first little bit of the row (say 1-2 
columns worth of pixels) change color.  Absolutely not a problem for 
me, but just reporting.  Its intermittent...

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:49pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

Oops,

Please disgard my statement about switching from outline to outline.

Made no sense. That's what happens when the boss interrupts in the 
middle of a post.


> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Michael Rudnick <egroups@R...> wrote:
> 
> > Based on the comments, I think you should keep the existing
> > functionality. I *do* recommend that you change the description 
of 
> the
> > checkbox so it's clear that unchecked keeps the filter and checked
> > allows a specific filter or no filter.
> 
> 
> I agree.  For me views are more useful if they include filters. 
> 
> I suspect those who switch from outline to outline with the same 
> filter must be using Shadow for a narrower range of purposes.  I 
use 
> Shadow for widely varying purposes and the current filter is often 
> irrelevant to the next outline I view.
> 
> Not to mention when I'm working in one outline, then temporarily 
> switch to a different one then back again.  
> 
> (I have no opinion on the "built-ins", I have a feeling I will be 
> using them less now that there are custom views)
> 
> Switching "all" to "no-filter" makes sense to me too.
> 
> Gerry

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Desktop idea, one more try

I think supporting more than one column would be great.  Zoot does this on 
the desktop (but not the Palm).  It would be a medium priority feature for me.

At 04:34 PM 6/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Yesterday I posted a desktop idea and there were no responses.
>Either there is no interest in the idea or I did a very poor job of
>explaining myself.
>
>I'd like to try just one more time because it was such a good concept
>in ECCO (the best rated PIM of its day).
>
>On the desktop, instead of showing the details of just one item you
>could show the details of ALL items in columns.
>
>i.e. one column for priority, one column for checkbox, one column for
>target date...
>
>(Notes would have to be handled differently, maybe with/under the
>item itself.)
>
>This would really open up you whole outline view and make for very
>easy editing.
>
>It would be particularly nice if there was a column for each tag.
>Then you could select a tag just by clicking in it's column.
>
>I realize this would be a major programming ordeal, but it was a very
>powerful concept in ECCO and I just wanted to get the idea out there.
>
>Gerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: bonos167  <ygd@i...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:59pm
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Samuel J. Radcliffe" <samr@g...> wrote:
> I would vote for Samuel's preentation of things ...

> I think the choices ought to be grouped by function and operand 
(view, item,
> list):
> 
> +[C] Clipboard
> 	- <unchanged>
> 
> +[O] View Options
> 	+ Filter Manager
> 	+ Highlight Manager
> 	+ Zooms
> 		- Zoom to level
> 		- Zoom inside selection
> 	+ Expand
> 		-Expand all
> 		-Collapse all
> 
> +[V] View Selector
> 	+ Standard Views
> 		- Checklist
> 		- Note
> 		- etc
> 	+ Custom Views
> 		- View Manager
> 		- Custom #1
> 		- Custom #2
> 		- etc
> 
> +[I] Item Operations
> 	+ Add Tag
> 		- Category
> 			- tags
> 		- Last added tag
> 		- Second to last
> 		- Third to last
> 	+ Remove Tag
> 		- Tag #1
> 		- Tag #2
> 		- etc
> 	+ Tag Manager
> 	+ Link Manager
> 	+ Toggle Item Highlight (bold)
> 	+ Item Type
> 		- List's Type
> 		- Checklist
> 		- etc
> 
> +[L] List Operations
> 	+ Revert to Last
> 	+ Save now
> 	+ Recent files
> 	+ Import
> 	+ Export
> 	+ <merge>
> 	+ <save as>
> 
> 
>

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

>       I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
>enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should it remove
>the filter?
>
>       What do folks think?


How about being able to set filter to "None" vs. "No preference?"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:37pm
Subject: Re: Datebook category support?

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Nancy wrote:

> Is there any way to specify a datebook category for linked items like you
> can for to-do's?  If not, is there any possibility of this in the future?

	Datebook doesn't have categories; Datebk[45] support it, but its
not an official thing. As such, I'm leaving it for now, since I have so
many other things to do that help everyone instead of a subset of people
:)

> *Willing to do any amount of begging and groveling you deem appropriate,
> Jeff  ;-) *

	hubba hubba :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:

> So, to have saved view remove a currently applied filter...we'd have 
> to check "Filter" and then choose the "No Filter" filter? Wow, read 
> that ten times fast <G>.
> 
> Liveable...

	I'm tempted to change the text to "Select" instead of "Filter", so
that its more like the old filter menu; "Select: " and pick All (for no
filter, essentially), or pick a filter for the filter option to chose. And
then dont' check "Select" for it to leave things alone.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Beta feedback: minor glitch in highlighting on file list

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:

> Almost too minor to mention, but in case its helpful:
> 
> I now display the list of outlines using the alternating colors.  
> Occasionally when I tap on a colored row, instead of the entire row 
> being highlighted,just the first little bit of the row (say 1-2 
> columns worth of pixels) change color.  Absolutely not a problem for 
> me, but just reporting.  Its intermittent...

	I noticed this myself once or twice; I can't reproduce it.. I
wonder if anyone can figure out how it happens? (ie: I tried tapping in an
item, tapping in other items, tapping and dragging from inside to inside,
and tapping form inside to outside the list, and from outside to
inside). It works perfectly as expected. But once in a blue moon, you get
that little bit of hilight and not the rest.

	That annoys the hell out of me :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, bonos167 wrote:

> > I would vote for Samuel's preentation of things ...
> 
> > I think the choices ought to be grouped by function and operand 
> (view, item,
> > list):
> > 
> > +[C] Clipboard
> > 	- <unchanged>

	<etc>

	I think I'll worry about revamping the top right popbuttons after
2.5 goes out the door; its a fair amount of work, and has to be carefully
done, and we then need to poll everyone and see if they like it or
not.. so we'll do it when we have time. I need to get 2.5 out, and then to
work on the desktop..

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:26am
Subject: Re: Beta feedback: minor glitch in highlighting on file list

here is one way to reproduce it:

click on the triangle icon (lefthand side pop up action menu) for a color 
row that is not highlighted.  every time I do this I get the pop up menu 
and the highlight changes to the color row but it is always that "little 
bit of highlight."

hth

gw

At 03:41 PM 6/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:
>
> > Almost too minor to mention, but in case its helpful:
> >
> > I now display the list of outlines using the alternating colors.
> > Occasionally when I tap on a colored row, instead of the entire row
> > being highlighted,just the first little bit of the row (say 1-2
> > columns worth of pixels) change color.  Absolutely not a problem for
> > me, but just reporting.  Its intermittent...
>
>       I noticed this myself once or twice; I can't reproduce it.. I
>wonder if anyone can figure out how it happens? (ie: I tried tapping in an
>item, tapping in other items, tapping and dragging from inside to inside,
>and tapping form inside to outside the list, and from outside to
>inside). It works perfectly as expected. But once in a blue moon, you get
>that little bit of hilight and not the rest.
>
>       That annoys the hell out of me :)
>
>             jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:29am
Subject: Beta feedback: new from still crashes on my machine

just curious if the "new from" problem went away in the new version.  it 
did not... (but I can live without New From for now...)

best,

George

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 2:32am
Subject: Beta feedback: date functionality in custom filter

I like the custom filter feature.  Went to set up a filter for all 
unchecked items in this week's target.  I notice that at the moment the 
only rules pertaining to dates seem to be whether a given date field has a 
value or not.  Sure this has been said or is already on your list, but fwiw 
it would be great to have some kind of date range checking (akin to what is 
available in the preset filters).

regards,

George

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:20am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:
>
> > So, to have saved view remove a currently applied filter...we'd have
> > to check "Filter" and then choose the "No Filter" filter? Wow, read
> > that ten times fast <G>.
> >
> > Liveable...
>
> I'm tempted to change the text to "Select" instead of "Filter", so
> that its more like the old filter menu; "Select: " and pick All (for no
> filter, essentially), or pick a filter for the filter option to chose. And
> then dont' check "Select" for it to leave things alone.
>
> jeff
>

I think that's a good idea...much easier to explain and document.  Minimum
effort for maximum gain :)

Ling

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:06pm
Subject: Re: Beta feedback: new from still crashes on my machine

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Wyner wrote:

> just curious if the "new from" problem went away in the new version.  it 
> did not... (but I can live without New From for now...)

	It did not; it still shows up for some people. Work is still
ongoing though, and if I don't get it fixed for 2.5, I'll get it fixed for
2.5.x :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:06pm
Subject: Re: Beta feedback: date functionality in custom filter

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, George Wyner wrote:

> I like the custom filter feature.  Went to set up a filter for all 
> unchecked items in this week's target.  I notice that at the moment the 
> only rules pertaining to dates seem to be whether a given date field has a 
> value or not.  Sure this has been said or is already on your list, but fwiw 
> it would be great to have some kind of date range checking (akin to what is 
> available in the preset filters).

	Yep, for sure. Its just not in yet, but it will be.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: TEWoerner  <TEWoerner@m...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:24pm
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

This makes sense.  I haven't used the new version enough to have an 
opinion, so I need more time to figure out how I will truly use this. 

Tim

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002, bonos167 wrote:
> 
> > > I would vote for Samuel's preentation of things ...
> > 
> > > I think the choices ought to be grouped by function and operand 
> > (view, item,
> > > list):
> > > 
> > > +[C] Clipboard
> > > 	- <unchanged>
> 
> 	<etc>
> 
> 	I think I'll worry about revamping the top right popbuttons 
after
> 2.5 goes out the door; its a fair amount of work, and has to be 
carefully
> done, and we then need to poll everyone and see if they like it or
> not.. so we'll do it when we have time. I need to get 2.5 out, and 
then to
> work on the desktop..
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: TEWoerner  <TEWoerner@m...>
Date: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:29pm
Subject: Suggestions

I say it as a compliment that, when reading this board, it seems Jeff 
is more ambitious about function enhancement than many of us.  Thats 
great!!

Tim

From: Tomas Pihl  <tomas.pihl@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 3:32pm
Subject: Many views

I just digged into Views and Tags and I really like it. Even if it takes 
a while to really understand how powerful these features are, they are 
for sure handly and I wouldn't want to be without them.

Which brings me in on my question. I've up until now only been polishing 
on my "Life Planning" list and I have created what for me feels like a
good and handy scheme for how views and tags can be used. But what I 
discovered was that the views are global, ie. applicable and useable 
from within all lists. Would it be useful to have views only tied to one 
specific list with perhaps a possibility to "import" views from other 
lists? Or perhaps to make the views category based? I only have 3 views 
at the moment and all of them are only used in my Life Planning list but 
I can imagine me using more and more of them as I create more lists. 
Then I have to start naming them accordingly since they (the views) tend 
to, at least for me, be very list specific. Most of the views created 
for other lists aren't useful for other lists.

Also, a minor detail, it would be nice to have Cutom Filter Detail -> 
Filter Rule Detail -> Operation -> [List of built-in operations] sorted.

/Tomas

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:32pm
Subject: Can Shadow.prc be uploaded to Flash ROM with Jackflash ?

Hi folks, question can the sp.prc be put on flash rom with jackflash, 
I understand the databases need to be in ram which fine but how about 
the prc file.

TIA

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:59pm
Subject: Sorry for the ?, yes it can...

From: William Franklin  <billf@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:56pm
Subject: Re: Excessive Sync Times

Interestingly I was synching as I read this e-mail, and I was reading
e-mail to fill the time waiting for Shadow to sync. I had been wondering
why it was taking so long, and almost canceled the sync when I got to
this e-mail. I ended up waiting for more than 45 minutes, and finally
canceled the hotsync. Since I just registered and started using Shadow,
neither of my files are big (1k). So, what do I do?

Bill 

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Learned wrote:

> Has anyone seen instances where Shadow takes excessive
> times to sync...on the order of 30 minutes? I don't have
> that many files, or that large either. If no one has seen this, I'll 
> start the troubleshooting process.

	If this occurs, its something bad. Look for a "giant" file and
let me know :/ (There are 3 known and annoying bugs in the conduit;
that's one of them. Very rare, I think, but annoying)

	Once 2.5.0 come south, I hope to dig into the conduit but good
for the next few months.

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: William Franklin  <billf@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 11:33pm
Subject: RE: more fantasizing

I would second this. I used it and synced it to my old Pilot. I mourned
the day our office went to Outlook and tried to keep using Ecco then,
but the effort in trying to maintain to PIMs finally made me give up.
Looking at Shadow made me remember how easy it used to be with Ecco
(once you got your template set up). Basically Ecco is what we're all
trying to "rig" when we mix Datebk5, Shadow, Megawiki, etc. Something
like that for the Palm could be it's killer app.

Bill

   Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:58:51 -0000
   From: "onemoreolive" <onemoreolive@y...>
Subject: More fantasizing

If fantasizing is allowed I have one for the desktop.

It would be like the old ECCO Pro. (which I still miss)

Could all fields (except notes) be in columns on the right of the 
items, including tags.  Then you could set them by clicking on the 
columns you want.

I realize this would be a major change but like said, just a fantasy!

Gerry

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:53am
Subject: Re: Many views

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, Tomas Pihl wrote:

> on my "Life Planning" list and I have created what for me feels like a
> good and handy scheme for how views and tags can be used. But what I 
> discovered was that the views are global, ie. applicable and useable 
> from within all lists. Would it be useful to have views only tied to one 
> specific list with perhaps a possibility to "import" views from other 

	It would not be usefull to tie them to lists -- the idea is to
define a usefull view (a concept which has nothing to do with views), and
then associate a view with a list to achieve useful outputs. Doing it
consistently across lists is super usefull. Doing it with one list at a
time is what you had before.

> lists? Or perhaps to make the views category based? I only have 3 views 

	If desired, I may add categories later; I've left things open so
that categories can be added at leisure. Must get 2.5 out the door, and
then to the conduit and desktop.

> Also, a minor detail, it would be nice to have Cutom Filter Detail -> 
> Filter Rule Detail -> Operation -> [List of built-in operations] sorted.

	They're grouped now, more or less. I could sort them, but the
sorting would be arbitrary.. I named them arbitrarily, so would sorting by
alphabet be usefull?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:53am
Subject: Re: Can Shadow.prc be uploaded to Flash ROM with Jackflash ?

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Hi folks, question can the sp.prc be put on flash rom with jackflash, 
> I understand the databases need to be in ram which fine but how about 
> the prc file.

	Yep, no problem. It is not a self modifying application.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Gavin Kerr  <gk@q...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:10am
Subject: Re: Can Shadow.prc be uploaded to Flash ROM with Jackflash ?

On Mon, 2002-06-24 at 03:53, Jeff Mitchell wrote: On Sun, 23 Jun 2002,
jledesma28 wrote:

> Hi folks, question can the sp.prc be put on flash rom with jackflash, 
> I understand the databases need to be in ram which fine but how about 
> the prc file.

      Yep, no problem. It is not a self modifying application.

            jeff

Ooh, Ooh, can we request that as a feature :-)

Gav

-- 
Gav <gk@q...>

"Don't misunderestimate the force"
	- Darth Bush


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:54am
Subject: Re: Re: Excessive Sync Times

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, William Franklin wrote:

> Interestingly I was synching as I read this e-mail, and I was reading
> e-mail to fill the time waiting for Shadow to sync. I had been wondering
> why it was taking so long, and almost canceled the sync when I got to
> this e-mail. I ended up waiting for more than 45 minutes, and finally
> canceled the hotsync. Since I just registered and started using Shadow,
> neither of my files are big (1k). So, what do I do?

	Do you have any problems? It is pretty rare for something to go
fubny, even when the conduit gets into one of its issues. Did one of your
files get huge? If not, no worries. If so, let me know
(support@c...)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:56am
Subject: Re: Can Shadow.prc be uploaded to Flash ROM with Jackflash ?

On 24 Jun 2002, Gavin Kerr wrote:

> Ooh, Ooh, can we request that as a feature :-)

	What, have it rearrange its resources so that if yuou look at them
just so, its playing a game of tetris?

	Hmm. Nooooooo :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jc21009  <jc21009@y...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Excessive Sync Times

Wasn't sure where to post this, but since the topic came up...

This morning was my first synch at work, since importing all my 
ToDo's to Shadow - Wow. Yes the todo file is big, and I know that 
since I last synched at home, that work is the 'alternate" and is 
slower, but Shadow has been synching for 90 minutes now and has been 
though about half my lists.

I'm watching it, its not frozen, I can see occassional progress in 
windows explorer as the file date and time stamp change. Just thought 
you'd like to know.


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, William Franklin wrote:
> 
> > Interestingly I was synching as I read this e-mail, and I was 
reading
> > e-mail to fill the time waiting for Shadow to sync. I had been 
wondering
> > why it was taking so long, and almost canceled the sync when I 
got to
> > this e-mail. I ended up waiting for more than 45 minutes, and 
finally
> > canceled the hotsync. Since I just registered and started using 
Shadow,
> > neither of my files are big (1k). So, what do I do?
> 
> 	Do you have any problems? It is pretty rare for something to 
go
> fubny, even when the conduit gets into one of its issues. Did one 
of your
> files get huge? If not, no worries. If so, let me know
> (support@c...)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Excessive Sync Times

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, jc21009 wrote:

> Wasn't sure where to post this, but since the topic came up...
> 
> This morning was my first synch at work, since importing all my 
> ToDo's to Shadow - Wow. Yes the todo file is big, and I know that 
> since I last synched at home, that work is the 'alternate" and is 
> slower, but Shadow has been synching for 90 minutes now and has been 
> though about half my lists.

	A sync shouldn't go on for more than a few minutes. If its going
longer than that, you've got hit by this annoying bug.

> I'm watching it, its not frozen, I can see occassional progress in
> windows explorer as the file date and time stamp change. Just thought
> you'd like to know.

	If you like, send me the lastsync.txt for that transaction and
I'll see whats up (once it finishes). Or cancel it.. something is funny.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: TEWoerner  <TEWoerner@m...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:06pm
Subject: Re: Excessive Sync Times

I've seen that with 2.2.10.  I cancelled and synced later where it 
processed at a normal pace.

Tim

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "William Franklin" <billf@t...> wrote:
> Interestingly I was synching as I read this e-mail, and I was 
reading
> e-mail to fill the time waiting for Shadow to sync. I had been 
wondering
> why it was taking so long, and almost canceled the sync when I got 
to
> this e-mail. I ended up waiting for more than 45 minutes, and 
finally
> canceled the hotsync. Since I just registered and started using 
Shadow,
> neither of my files are big (1k). So, what do I do?
> 
> Bill 
> 
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Learned wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone seen instances where Shadow takes excessive
> > times to sync...on the order of 30 minutes? I don't have
> > that many files, or that large either. If no one has seen this, 
I'll 
> > start the troubleshooting process.
> 
> 	If this occurs, its something bad. Look for a "giant" file and
> let me know :/ (There are 3 known and annoying bugs in the conduit;
> that's one of them. Very rare, I think, but annoying)
> 
> 	Once 2.5.0 come south, I hope to dig into the conduit but good
> for the next few months.
> 
> 		Jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Tomas Pihl  <tomas.pihl@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:57pm
Subject: Re: Many views

Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 	It would not be usefull to tie them to lists -- the idea is to
> define a usefull view (a concept which has nothing to do with views), and
> then associate a view with a list to achieve useful outputs. Doing it
> consistently across lists is super usefull. Doing it with one list at a
> time is what you had before.

I see what you mean and I think I understand how to want us to use it, 
but as a stubborn swede, imho it can be even more powerful if you have a 
possibility to tie a view to a specific list. Let me try to explain what 
I mean. The power with views, at least for how I use SP, comes when you 
use it together with filters. This together with a view's ability to 
specify the columns you can create lists in lists sort of. This wasn't 
possible before since the Custom setting was not tied to a filter but 
rather the whole list. This would mean the appearance in terms of 
buttons and columns of your list would look the same even if a built-in 
or custom filter was applied.

An example from my Life Planning list:

  Overview view - Overview of my assigned tasks
   Columns: Prio, Checkbox, Progress, Due days
    Filter: Target Date Present TRUE, Checked is FALSE

  Unplanned view - Stuff I need to plan or consider
   Columns: Prio, Checkbox, Target Date, ToDo, Tag
    Filter: Target Date Present FALSE, Checked is FALSE

I usually enter the unplanned view as I come up with some new tasks I 
need to add/alter. It works as my inbox sort of. If I assign a target 
date to a task (since the target date column is present) it'll get 
transported over to my Overview view. If it's a minor type of thing, I 
usually tick the todo button to have it in my DateBk5 todo-list at a low 
prio. In this Unplanned view, I don't care about the due date nor the 
progress but this is however vital information in the Overview view 
where all my assignments for the upcoming weeks are.

If I now eg enter my "Vacation '02" list it would be nice to also have 
this list filtered and displayed in different ways. For my vacation 
plans it isn't appropriate to apply my Life Planning views since they 
are used in a different way. I want to show other buttons/columns and 
use different filters depending on the list I'm currently working in. I 
can't create views enough generic to achieve useful outputs from all 
lists since all of my lists are used differently. I guess thats the 
problem I'm having.

I realize I might not be using the view concept as you intended us to 
use it, but that's the pain with customers. They never obey the rules :-)

>>lists? Or perhaps to make the views category based? I only have 3 views 
> 
> 	If desired, I may add categories later; I've left things open so
> that categories can be added at leisure. Must get 2.5 out the door, and
> then to the conduit and desktop.

Ok, sounds good.

>>Also, a minor detail, it would be nice to have Cutom Filter Detail -> 
>>Filter Rule Detail -> Operation -> [List of built-in operations] sorted.
>
> 	They're grouped now, more or less. I could sort them, but the
> sorting would be arbitrary.. I named them arbitrarily, so would sorting by
> alphabet be usefull?

That was my idea but since it's only 2 screens of operations it might 
not be of such importance to have them in alphabetic order. I talked 
(wrote) before thinking. Keep it as it is for now. Sorry.

/Tomas

From: tarasofsky  <Tarasofsky@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:09pm
Subject: filters on collapsed lists

Hi, I don't know if this has been discussed already, but I wonder 
whether it would be possible to make the filters work on collapsed 
lists.  Unless I am doing something wrong, I find that I have to 
first manually expand the lists before the the filters work properly.

Not a huge priority (e.g. compared to the desktop!), but possibly a 
candidate for your to do list.

Cheers,

Richard

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: Re: filters on collapsed lists

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, tarasofsky wrote:

> Hi, I don't know if this has been discussed already, but I wonder 
> whether it would be possible to make the filters work on collapsed 
> lists.  Unless I am doing something wrong, I find that I have to 
> first manually expand the lists before the the filters work properly.

	Filters should work on collapsed lists; ie: An item hidden form
view can be selected, and keep the parent around, but you still can't see
it until you expand the parent.

	Or is it not like this?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: ebisuzaki_r  <ebisuzaki_r@y...>
Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:28pm
Subject: "Bad Load! The list could not be loaded!"

I was at a meeting and entered different actions I needed to do in SP. When I 
hotsynced there was a fatal error. I took my Visor Deluxe off the cradle and 
did a soft reset. Now when I try to open the SP file, I get a message "Bad 
Load!" and can't open the file. Is there a way of recovering this file? Your help 
would be much appreciated!

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:07am
Subject: Re: "Bad Load! The list could not be loaded!"

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, ebisuzaki_r wrote:

> I was at a meeting and entered different actions I needed to do in SP. When I 
> hotsynced there was a fatal error. I took my Visor Deluxe off the cradle and 
> did a soft reset. Now when I try to open the SP file, I get a message "Bad 
> Load!" and can't open the file. Is there a way of recovering this file? Your help 
> would be much appreciated!

	Taken to support.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: kenclatham  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:02am
Subject: It has always been thus?

Jeff,
Been playing with the Beta while on holiday.

First and foremost, I like the filters and tags.  I haven't worked up
a scheme for using them yet, but 'tis forming as we speak...

Thanks!

Noticed only a couple of things so far...

This has nothing to do with new features, but I noticed when I was
importing a Memo that even though my default list type is set at Note,
I get a CheckList.

Has it always been thus?

Two, "New From" is still only showing repeats and nothing else... ah,
well.

And lastly, almost inconsequentially (I don't think I ever noticed how
long that word is typed out...stray thought, sorry), I noticed a
slight "glitch" in the Item type drop down on the Details screen.

Once in every few (5-10) times I use it, when I slip and tap on it
slightly less time than is needed to drop the list, I see odd
characters (non-ASCII) display in reverse (w on B) where the dropdown
arrow is.

Doesn't seem to cause an problems, just thought it might be a sign of
some "yet to accumulate" memory corruption... 'cause I don't recall
ever seeing it before.

One more thing, sort of ephemeral, but the tag creation and usage
seems a bit stilted.  I'll post back when its settled a bit better,
possibly with some ideas on what I think will make it better.  It just
seems to be a bit of "overkill" for the relatively simple concept of
tags...not to say that they weren't hard to implement... :)

Ken

From: tarasofsky  <Tarasofsky@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:48am
Subject: Re: filters on collapsed lists

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 

... but you still can't see
> it until you expand the parent.
> 

Yes, that is how it works.  But I wonder what the point of having it
remain hidden until the parent is expanded.  Why not save the
inevitable next step and have the filter also expand the lists as
appropriate for the conditions of the filter?  Or am I the only one
who would welcome that?

Richard

From: kent.a.vaughn@d...
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:00am
Subject: Kent Vaughn is out of the office.

This is a system generated message. Please do not reply to this message.

I will be out of the office from 06/24/2002 until 06/28/2002.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:05pm
Subject: Adding Tags.. to beginning, middle, or end?!

This keeps going back and forth :) A show of hands then!

	When you hit "Add Tag", or Link Manager -> Add, a tag is added to
the beginning of the tag list, and thus becomes the prime tag (shown in
the column, the one used for sorts, etc). So each time you add a tag, your
prime tag becomes it.

	Instead, should adding a tag go to the last position of the
tags? (ie: If youhave 3 tags, and add a new one, should it become the 4th
tag?) Or should it go to the second slot (not prime tag, but near the
top).

	The question is how do you work; so far, have you adde dtags, then
used the tag column to pick your prime tag? Do you naturally think in
terms of the main tag first, and then add the lesser tags? This woudl
suggest that adding to the end is better.

	Or do you weant it so just some day, you add a tag, and obviously,
because you're adding this tag it must be important, and it shoudl show in
the tag column etc right away? (like it is now). This is the idea that
what you're doing now is important, so lets show it.

	Which is the right school of thought?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:22pm
Subject: Add Tags, addendum

In the alpha group, we've got about a even 50/50 split; some want
it at the front, some want them added to the end. I coudl add a pref to
specify the desired behaviour.

	But if I do, what then is the newbie desired method? Where woudl
most people expect the tag to go?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:58pm
Subject: Re: It has always been thus?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "kenclatham" <clatham1@t...> wrote:
> 
> Two, "New From" is still only showing repeats and nothing else... ah,
> well.
> 

Actually, the beta has corrected this problem for for me, but not all
of the time. Sometimes the new from works like a champ, but others it
will not.  I usually have to get out of the list I am working on, get
out of Shadow, go back in and give it another try.  It now works more
often than not, which is an improvement, but not quite there yet.

 - Jeramy

From: funfactorde  <FunFactor@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: Problem setting linked target date

I've got a list with linked items to todo db. If I try to change the 
target date in the list, the date seems to be changed (new date 
shown) in the list. If I check them in the Todo App the date is not 
changed and if I get back to shadow its the same date as before 
changing (the one of the Todo db).
If I change the date in the Todo db it is changed in Shadow as well.

Has someone an idea?

Regards
   Stefan

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:30pm
Subject: Re: It has always been thus?

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, kenclatham wrote:

> This has nothing to do with new features, but I noticed when I was
> importing a Memo that even though my default list type is set at Note,
> I get a CheckList.

	Yep, old issue; I'll see if I can fix it.

> Has it always been thus?

	Yep :)

> Two, "New From" is still only showing repeats and nothing else... ah,
> well.

	I've not had time to work on New From; not sure if I'll get it for
2.5, but if not I'll have it for 2.5.x (an alpha soon after 2.5 goes
out). 2.5 has lots of other handy tricks (it can import items from todo
that you mark as being for import, so new from is almost redundant now)

> And lastly, almost inconsequentially (I don't think I ever noticed how
> long that word is typed out...stray thought, sorry), I noticed a
> slight "glitch" in the Item type drop down on the Details screen.
> 
> Once in every few (5-10) times I use it, when I slip and tap on it
> slightly less time than is needed to drop the list, I see odd
> characters (non-ASCII) display in reverse (w on B) where the dropdown
> arrow is.

	You see them temporarily until they get covered, or do they
stay? I'm cheaping out on memory, so the OS sometimes shows glitches like
that for the popups, but so far its always "insantaneous".. they show and
vanish. If they show and stay, I call it a bug.

> Doesn't seem to cause an problems, just thought it might be a sign of
> some "yet to accumulate" memory corruption... 'cause I don't recall
> ever seeing it before.

	Always been thus, since day 1 ;) (Thats why I don't mind it.. so
few people ever notice it, and there are no sideeffects ;)

> One more thing, sort of ephemeral, but the tag creation and usage
> seems a bit stilted.  I'll post back when its settled a bit better,
> possibly with some ideas on what I think will make it better.  It just
> seems to be a bit of "overkill" for the relatively simple concept of
> tags...not to say that they weren't hard to implement... :)

	Give me ideas now; this is a done deal, more or less, so speak now
or forever hold your tongue ;)

	Theres a few changes to make creation a little easier, and
assignment a 2-tap process instead of 4 (using the tag column). Maybe some
multi-add abilities to link manager. We'll see what time permits.

	It is all a bit overkill, but its also open ended; you'll wodner
why the tag creation has its own window, when its just a tag name and a
filter choice and a button to pick columns. But hidden on that form are
spaces to let you assign sorts, and icons, and colour preferences and
such, that I may eventually have time to enable. I think ahead :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: filters on collapsed lists

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, tarasofsky wrote:

> ... but you still can't see
> > it until you expand the parent.
> > 
> 
> Yes, that is how it works.  But I wonder what the point of having it
> remain hidden until the parent is expanded.  Why not save the
> inevitable next step and have the filter also expand the lists as
> appropriate for the conditions of the filter?  Or am I the only one
> who would welcome that?

	We call that "magic"; magic in software is generalyl bad. A fork
is just a fork.. it doesn't jam the food in your mouth. Think how
annoyingh that would be, even though thats what you always do with it
next. The trick is that.. the food going into your mouth happens at your
leisure, not the leisure of the fork. A rough example, but hey, I'm
running without caffeine right now ;)

	You've chosen to collapse the item. You may have good reasons for
that. Applying a filter is to limit what is visible.. but it does not
effect the collapse state. You've set it, you can change it. If filter got
into that, we're suddenyl having filter doing "magic", would start to
confuse people, and annoy peopel who do not wish that to happen.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Kent Vaughn is out of the office.

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 kent.a.vaughn@d... wrote:

> This is a system generated message. Please do not reply to this message.
> 
> I will be out of the office from 06/24/2002 until 06/28/2002.

	Kent is removed from the mailing list.

	Kent -- you can re-subscribe at your leisure; when you go away,
you must turn off email delivery, or you end up bouncing emails back to
lists. With some lists, you can end up creating loops -- your away message
goes to the list, come sback to you, goes back, causing thousands of extra
emaisl to everyone in the list.

	Everyone else -- a note -- when you go away, if you dont' turn off
email subscriptions, and you send an away message to the list, I cut you
off :) Has to be done.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:38pm
Subject: Re: Problem setting linked target date

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:

> I've got a list with linked items to todo db. If I try to change the 
> target date in the list, the date seems to be changed (new date 
> shown) in the list. If I check them in the Todo App the date is not 
> changed and if I get back to shadow its the same date as before 
> changing (the one of the Todo db).
> If I change the date in the Todo db it is changed in Shadow as well.
> 
> Has someone an idea?

	You've found the limit of the ToDo built in application. I may
augment it, but right now its thus:

	The ToDo application and database allows for only a single
date. Shadow has 3 or more dates (Start, Finish, Target, Creation,
etc). When you link to ToDo, you're linking the Target date, and Shjadow
syncs the changes. So you check the item in ToDo or Shadow, and the other
side is also checked.

	You check it in ToDo, say, and if you have your ToDo prefs set
just so, ToDo changes the date to the current date (to reflect finish
time, at the loss of the due time). When you open Shadow, it sycns the
item, and notices the new date.. and since Shadow syncs target date, you
then clobber your target date in Shadow :/ (just likw you had done in
ToDo).

	Theres a number of related issues, all because of the limits in
ToDo.

	I may add some code to special handle this sort of thing smarter.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: funfactorde  <FunFactor@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Problem setting linked target date

Sorry about not expressing it so well: when I start the todo app
after changing the date in shadow, it's still the date it was before 
i.e. its not changed to the date it has been set in shadow.

That's the problem.

Regards
  Stefan

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:
> 
> > I've got a list with linked items to todo db. If I try to change 
the 
> > target date in the list, the date seems to be changed (new date 
> > shown) in the list. If I check them in the Todo App the date is 
not 
> > changed and if I get back to shadow its the same date as before 
> > changing (the one of the Todo db).
> > If I change the date in the Todo db it is changed in Shadow as 
well.
> > 
> > Has someone an idea?
> 
> 	You've found the limit of the ToDo built in application. I may
> augment it, but right now its thus:
> 
> 	The ToDo application and database allows for only a single
> date. Shadow has 3 or more dates (Start, Finish, Target, Creation,
> etc). When you link to ToDo, you're linking the Target date, and 
Shjadow
> syncs the changes. So you check the item in ToDo or Shadow, and the 
other
> side is also checked.
> 
> 	You check it in ToDo, say, and if you have your ToDo prefs set
> just so, ToDo changes the date to the current date (to reflect 
finish
> time, at the loss of the due time). When you open Shadow, it sycns 
the
> item, and notices the new date.. and since Shadow syncs target
date, 
you
> then clobber your target date in Shadow :/ (just likw you had done 
in
> ToDo).
> 
> 	Theres a number of related issues, all because of the limits 
in
> ToDo.
> 
> 	I may add some code to special handle this sort of thing 
smarter.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Problem setting linked target date

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:

> Sorry about not expressing it so well: when I start the todo app
> after changing the date in shadow, it's still the date it was before 
> i.e. its not changed to the date it has been set in shadow.
> 
> That's the problem.

	If a Shadow item has a ToDo link (not a severed or broken one),
and yuou've changed the item, those changes will go to the related ToDo
item. If not, somethign funny is going on. The date synced is the Target
date.. make sure thats the changed one.

	Which ToDo program are you using? (the built in one?)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: funfactorde  <FunFactor@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Adding Tags.. to beginning, middle, or end?!

Up to now I was only thinking of "normal" tags and I must admit that
I don't understand the purpose of the prime tag. I found out that
manualsorting of tags is planed and therfore I guess there must be an 
ordering of tags in some way. If this is so is it alphabetical or by 
categories - what is the sort order and where to establish it? 

What I miss is easy deleting of a tag (I suggest to delete the one 
that is shown) in the same popup menu where you add a tag. BTW I like 
the TagName* idea to show that there is more than one tag.

I noticed that it's possible to add the same tag several times. I 
don't know whether this is usfull but as there is not much space 
perhaps this should be omitted.

I'd prefer the popup menus (not only the tag but the others too) to
be as short as possible. It's a little bit philosophical but I think 
there is no need for the tag manger to be in the menu. 
Popup menus should be used for a) very often needed functions or b)
to get access to functions that are deeply nested in the main menu or 
some extra window or c) implement context sensitive menues. 
I shadow the popup menus are used for a) and b).
Especially in the case of tags one (nomaly) first set's up the tags 
and then starts using them. So there is no reason a). There is no 
reason b) as well, because the tag manager can be reached very quick 
by tapping [V] -> Tag Manager.

Concerning the link manager I can't say whether it should be there or 
not as I don't understand how the sorting works ;-). Perhaps I'd be 
better to put "sort tags" there to make understand what the entry in 
the tag menu is good for.

For me the tag popup is most suitable that way:
Add  Tag
Del  Tag
Sort Tag
T: ...(*)

Just two ideas before I come to an end:
1. Already thought about hierarchical tags?
2. It be nice to get a list of used tags for the actual list in the 
custom filter choice of the tag manager (or just get the used ones 
highlite)

Tags are great Jeff!

Regards
   Stefan

From: funfactorde  <FunFactor@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:24pm
Subject: Re: Problem setting linked target date

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:
> 
> > Sorry about not expressing it so well: when I start the todo app
> > after changing the date in shadow, it's still the date it was 
before 
> > i.e. its not changed to the date it has been set in shadow.
> > 
> > That's the problem.
> 
> 	If a Shadow item has a ToDo link (not a severed or broken 
one),
> and yuou've changed the item, those changes will go to the related 
ToDo
> item. If not, somethign funny is going on. The date synced is the 
Target
> date.. make sure thats the changed one.
> 
> 	Which ToDo program are you using? (the built in one?)


Yes, the built in. Shadow is 2.2.10a, OS 4.0 on a M505 and some hacks 
with X-Master.

   Stefan

From: funfactorde  <FunFactor@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:30pm
Subject: Wish list - before going to Desktop ;-)

I've got only two wishes before a will wait patiently until the fresh 
conduit and desktop is comming *ggg*

Big wish: "New from ..." with choice for todo categories - pleeaase!
Small wish: Button in mini-edit to go directly to note field.

Regards,
  Stefan

P.S. Still trying out V 2.2.10 ...

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Adding Tags.. to beginning, middle, or end?!

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:

> Up to now I was only thinking of "normal" tags and I must admit that I
> don't understand the purpose of the prime tag. I found out that
> manualsorting of tags is planed and therfore I guess there must be an
> ordering of tags in some way. If this is so is it alphabetical or by
> categories - what is the sort order and where to establish it?

	The prime tag is just the "first tag"; I give it a special name,
because it is the one that is grouped by when sorting, and it is the one
displayed in the tag column. Filtering and such is by all tags, so prime
isn't relevant there.

	Thjere is no tag order.. there is just the first tag, and the
"Rest". When you add a tag, it currently becomes the first tag, bumping
the others down. Thus, it becomes the "prime tag".

	The question is.. should it?

> What I miss is easy deleting of a tag (I suggest to delete the one
> that is shown) in the same popup menu where you add a tag. BTW I like
> the TagName* idea to show that there is more than one tag.

	The "*" will be going in.

	Delete Tag will go in, same as Add Tag, in the tag column. You can
also delete them from the link manager.

> I noticed that it's possible to add the same tag several times. I
> don't know whether this is usfull but as there is not much space
> perhaps this should be omitted.

	I'll be "silently" ignoring a redundant add tag; not sure if soon,
but hopefully I'll get it in for next alpha or two. It doesn't hurt ot
gain you anything.

> I'd prefer the popup menus (not only the tag but the others too) to be
> as short as possible. It's a little bit philosophical but I think
> there is no need for the tag manger to be in the menu.  Popup menus
> should be used for a) very often needed functions or b) to get access
> to functions that are deeply nested in the main menu or some extra
> window or c) implement context sensitive menues.  I shadow the popup
> menus are used for a) and b). Especially in the case of tags one
> (nomaly) first set's up the tags and then starts using them. So there
> is no reason a). There is no reason b) as well, because the tag
> manager can be reached very quick by tapping [V] -> Tag Manager.

	We also do context menus (see the [C] popmenu). The reason you may
wish to pull up the tag manager is to create or delete tags, or change tag
categories, etc.. so you tap in the tag column, create a tag via TMgr,
then tap in the column again and add it. Most of the popmenus also have
commonly used options together, so that you don't have to know about the
[F] or [V] menu to get Tag Manager when you're already tapping away at the
tag column. 

	But I agree.. the UI needs some cleanup. It won't happen for
Shadow 2.5, but maybe for Shadow 3.0 I'll do a massive UI
upheaval. (ie: Shadow 3 is Shadow 2.5, plus changes, plus a massive set of
updates ot the desktop).

> Concerning the link manager I can't say whether it should be there or
> not as I don't understand how the sorting works ;-). Perhaps I'd be
> better to put "sort tags" there to make understand what the entry in
> the tag menu is good for.

	Link Manager is the canonicle way to manage links/connections;
tags and addresses and memos and todos and datebooks are all links, so
Link Manager can handle all of them. But we have handy weays to do the
same operations, like the Add Tag in Tag column. Those are conveniance
functions.

> For me the tag popup is most suitable that way:
> Add  Tag
> Del  Tag
> Sort Tag
> T: ...(*)

	I'll add Delete :)

	Is "Sort" useful? I'll be adding "up/down" push arrows in link
manager, to let you re-order manually. An alphabetic sort or something
would be painfull.

> 1. Already thought about hierarchical tags?

	Tags have categories.

	Do you mean tag "groups"? I've thought about it, but maybe down
the road. I need to deliver something, and not "fiddle" forever :)

> 2. It be nice to get a list of used tags for the actual list in the 
> custom filter choice of the tag manager (or just get the used ones 
> highlite)

	Interesting idea. A little processor intensive to do, though .. it
woudl have to climb through every item in the list and figure out what
tags it has, building a list in memory. It is conceivable you have 500
items in a list, each with 2 or 3 different tags.. so Shadow building a
list of 1500 tags would be brutal.

> Tags are great Jeff!

	Let us know if you think of cool ways of using them :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: Problem setting linked target date

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:

> > > Sorry about not expressing it so well: when I start the todo app
> > > after changing the date in shadow, it's still the date it was 
> before 
> > > i.e. its not changed to the date it has been set in shadow.
> > > 
> > > That's the problem.
> > 
> > 	If a Shadow item has a ToDo link (not a severed or broken 
> one),
> > and yuou've changed the item, those changes will go to the related 
> ToDo
> > item. If not, somethign funny is going on. The date synced is the 
> Target
> > date.. make sure thats the changed one.
> > 
> > 	Which ToDo program are you using? (the built in one?)
> 
> Yes, the built in. Shadow is 2.2.10a, OS 4.0 on a M505 and some hacks 
> with X-Master.

	Which hacks?

	The linking, synching, etc system hasn't changed in a year
probably.. its stable and solid.. so any oddity is likely a result of
"something else". (One hopes :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: funfactorde  <FunFactor@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:15pm
Subject: Re: Problem setting linked target date

> > ...
> 
> 	Which hacks?

Phlegm hack, Chrono Hack, FitalyStamp

I tried now with all hacks disabled and got the same behaviour.
:-(

I just realized something else (which has nothing to do with the 
problem): I can change the categorie that works, but when I do so in 
the link manager the item type disapears in the GUI (although it does 
not change).

*sigh*

   Stefan

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Problem setting linked target date

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, funfactorde wrote:

> > 	Which hacks?
> 
> Phlegm hack, Chrono Hack, FitalyStamp

	PhlegmHack is naughty. Don't use it. Delete it *immediately* and
get McPhling (which is the updated and fixed PhlegmHack). PhlegmHack has
many naught bugs.. on some units they show up rare, on otehrs all the
time. But it *will* cause data loss.

> I tried now with all hacks disabled and got the same behaviour.
> :-(
> 
> I just realized something else (which has nothing to do with the
> problem): I can change the categorie that works, but when I do so in
> the link manager the item type disapears in the GUI (although it does
> not change).

	I lost track of what we're talking about; always quote some of the
previous context. I answer hundreds of emails a day :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Leslie M  <jomoco5@i...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Kent Vaughn is out of the office.

> Everyone else -- a note -- when you go away, if you dont' turn off
> email subscriptions, and you send an away message to the list, I cut you
> off :) Has to be done.
>
> jeff

Thanks for looking out for us, Jeff!  Terrific idea.


            .· ´¨¨)) -:¦:-
              ¸.·´  .·´¨¨))
            ((¸¸.·´  .·´   -:¦:-
            -:¦:-  ((¸¸.·´* Leslie

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:22am
Subject: Desktop Version: when is the next updated version coming out ??

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 1:37am
Subject: Re: Desktop Version: when is the next updated version coming out ??

I'm focusing on getting the next handheld update out (Shadow 2.5,
in a week or two hopefully). Once that is out, I'm focusing on the conduit
and desktop, so expect a number of updates to start comingout in a little
while.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 2:23am
Subject: Thanks Jeff: Desktop Version yeah definitely

Cuz all your updated on the handheld are awesome, I personally have 
not used tags since I'm waiting for the accompanyning DOCS since I 
don't understand them well and how I can use them but I guess I'll 
wait, the same with the custom views, but I'm happy to hear that the 
desktops updates are coming soon. thanks again Jeff
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	I'm focusing on getting the next handheld update out (Shadow 
2.5,
> in a week or two hopefully). Once that is out, I'm focusing on the 
conduit
> and desktop, so expect a number of updates to start comingout in a 
little
> while.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 2:27am
Subject: Re: Thanks Jeff: Desktop Version yeah definitely

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Cuz all your updated on the handheld are awesome, I personally have 
> not used tags since I'm waiting for the accompanyning DOCS since I 
> don't understand them well and how I can use them but I guess I'll 
> wait, the same with the custom views, but I'm happy to hear that the 
> desktops updates are coming soon. thanks again Jeff

	Once I wrap up a few bugfixes and last minor things, I'll be
working on docs. Once the docs are ready, thats 2.5 out the door.

		jeff


> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > 	I'm focusing on getting the next handheld update out (Shadow 
> 2.5,
> > in a week or two hopefully). Once that is out, I'm focusing on the 
> conduit
> > and desktop, so expect a number of updates to start comingout in a 
> little
> > while.
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
> micro
> > circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
> is?"
> > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: kenclatham  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:04am
Subject: Re: Adding Tags.. to beginning, middle, or end?!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	This keeps going back and forth :) A show of hands then!
> 
> 	When you hit "Add Tag", or Link Manager -> Add, a tag is added to
> the beginning of the tag list, and thus becomes the prime tag
(shown in
> the column, the one used for sorts, etc). So each time you add a
tag, your
> prime tag becomes it.
> 
<snip>

For my two cents, I'd say add it to the end.  Though, it'd be really
nice to drag and drop order them in the Link Manager screen because
that would not *always* be the order I intend.

Obviously, if I were to take the opposing position, the conditional
reordering would still be there so I doubt if there is a "best" way.

So I'd think the only real way out is to put in both reordering and a
preference as to the default position.

I'm certain that's the *hard* way for you Jeff, so if I had to state a
preference, it'd be put in the default preference and come back to the
the "drag n drop" stuff later.

Ken

From: kenclatham  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:26am
Subject: Re: It has always been thus?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, kenclatham wrote:
> > Has it always been thus?
> 
> 	Yep :)

Been importing a lot more lately, guess I just never noticed it
"getting to me" before...

> ...it can import items from todo
> that you mark as being for import, so new from is almost redundant
now)
> 

Ooooo, I'll definitely test the pants off that one. I didn't even
notice, Thanks! ... uh, by the way, *how* do I mark them?  I don't
recall reading anything on that here.

> 
> 	You see them temporarily until they get covered, or do they
> stay? I'm cheaping out on memory, so the OS sometimes shows glitches
like
> that for the popups, but so far its always "insantaneous".. they
show and
> vanish. If they show and stay, I call it a bug.
<snip>

Ok, I guess its something I'll *try* to ignore. ;)  It gets hidden
immediately by the list.  In the case where I don't seem to tap long
enough for the list to show up, the reversed "block" just disappears.

> 
> 	Give me ideas now; this is a done deal, more or less, so speak now
> or forever hold your tongue ;)
> 

Forever?  I guess I better say *something* then... ;)  (maybe I can
find the time to commit to being an alpha user)

Ok, then, from the hip...

(1) get rid of the "Tag Manager" entry from the tag field popup.
(2) Add Delete in its place (but you've got this suggestion already)
(2) get to the Tag manager either through the F menu or the Link
manager.

Acutally, in studying the link manager and its relationship to the
other "managers" (ToDo app, Appt. app, Memo app), isn't the Tag
manager just another of these apps?  Or at least shouldn't it be
managed the same way (same look and feel)?

So... how 'bout this for a Link Manager layout (ignore the '_'s)

==============================================
=__Built-in links:___________________________=
=__Tag:______________________[Tag Manager]___=
=__File:__V (file list)______[Open File]_____=
=__ToDo:__V (link list)______[ToDo app]______=
=_________V (cat. list)______________________=
=__Appt:__V (link list)______[Appt. App]_____=
=____________________________________________=
= **existing link list below**

That way the "jump out" to any of the "built-in links" manager apps
would all be in one place (titles in []'s are buttons, of course).

Granted this would put the Tag manager 3 taps away from the tag in the
list, but...

(a) I'm more likely to add a bunch of tags to the master list at one
time. So having "Tag Manager" on the Tag popup just doesn't seem
useful (especially since its on the F menu).

(b) This makes the round trip for adding multiple tags to an item
shorter for the time being. (from tag, 4 taps... from Link Man., 3
taps unless you pick a category**) Besides, when you return to Link
manager you're likely to see what you've added so far.

(c) the addition of the buttons is something that just struck me as
convenient, that is, if you can already handle following a link and
returning to this popup screen instead of the list on return to SP. 
If that's true, I think all of this functionality is implemented, just
not collected into this screen.

** Why is category for Tag list in Link manager not supported when you
have a category list in the popup sequence from the tag itself?


All in all, it just seems that management of the item's tag list is
all that should appear in the popup menus available directly from the
item.  I think the rest should be centered around the Link Manager,
since Tags are just links (or you feel they should be treated that
way, with which I whole-heartedly agree).

> 	Theres a few changes to make creation a little easier, and
> assignment a 2-tap process instead of 4 (using the tag column).
Maybe some
> multi-add abilities to link manager. We'll see what time permits.
> 

These additions may make my suggestions less useful but, to be honest,
I'll be impressed if you can make a general tag selection in just 2
taps (especially since tapping the tag field is one of them!)

Ken

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: It has always been thus?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, kenclatham wrote:

> Been importing a lot more lately, guess I just never noticed it
> "getting to me" before...

	Import from memo now takes default list type, in the upcoming
releae.

> > ...it can import items from todo
> > that you mark as being for import, so new from is almost redundant
> now)
> > 
> 
> Ooooo, I'll definitely test the pants off that one. I didn't even
> notice, Thanks! ... uh, by the way, *how* do I mark them?  I don't
> recall reading anything on that here.

	Thats in the alpha.

	At the beginning of ToDos, put [[[file]]], and that todo can be
imported into "file", or the first filename that has those chaarcters that
it comes across. You just hit an Import menu item on the home screen, and
poof. For example, put [[[al]]] at the beginning of a todo, and if you
have a file "alphaville", it'll get imported.

> (1) get rid of the "Tag Manager" entry from the tag field popup.

	The tag column? Nah ;)

> (2) Add Delete in its place (but you've got this suggestion already)

	Yep, hope to add it soon. If not, later.

> (2) get to the Tag manager either through the F menu or the Link
> manager.

	It doesn't belong to the link manager, so will not be directly
invocable from there. ie: Tags are globals, and the Tag Manager is not for
assigning connections. The link manager assigns connections, but does not
define them. So, Filter Manager, Tag Manager, View Manager.. all very much
alike. The Filter Manager can assign a filter, ot of conveniance.. since
it always did that.

> Acutally, in studying the link manager and its relationship to the
> other "managers" (ToDo app, Appt. app, Memo app), isn't the Tag
> manager just another of these apps?  Or at least shouldn't it be
> managed the same way (same look and feel)?

	There are UI design issues, due to how Shadow has growqn. But
redoing the UI is a huge tonneof work, so I'll worry about it later. I try
and be mre or less internally consistant, but there are guffas in the name
of conveniance for all involved :)

> So... how 'bout this for a Link Manager layout (ignore the '_'s)
> 
> ==============================================
> =__Built-in links:___________________________=
> =__Tag:______________________[Tag Manager]___=
> =__File:__V (file list)______[Open File]_____=
> =__ToDo:__V (link list)______[ToDo app]______=
> =_________V (cat. list)______________________=
> =__Appt:__V (link list)______[Appt. App]_____=
> =____________________________________________=
> = **existing link list below**
> 
> That way the "jump out" to any of the "built-in links" manager apps
> would all be in one place (titles in []'s are buttons, of course).

	It wouldn't be appropriate. A list and link does not own a
Tag. Tags are across all lists, and you use the Manager to manage thoe tag
definitions. An item or list can link to a tag.. it doesn't own it, it
just has a connection *to* it. Its an important distinction.

> Granted this would put the Tag manager 3 taps away from the tag in the
> list, but...

	yep.

	ie: A view is managed in the View Manager, and not in List
Prefs. But List prefs can pick a view to use for this list. Same
distinction. If you managed saved views in list prefs, then woudlnt' it
make sense that changing it woudl not effect the same saved view in all
other list.s. since your'e editting only the one lists "list prefs". Thats
why there is a View Manager.. the views are not owned by the lists
anymore. They are referrals only.. the list assk to use a view from the
view manager, and you manage them in the view manager.

> (a) I'm more likely to add a bunch of tags to the master list at one
> time. So having "Tag Manager" on the Tag popup just doesn't seem
> useful (especially since its on the F menu).

	We've always had more than one way to do things, for conveniance
and speed. IT doesn't hurt or cost you a tap.

> (b) This makes the round trip for adding multiple tags to an item
> shorter for the time being. (from tag, 4 taps... from Link Man., 3
> taps unless you pick a category**) Besides, when you return to Link
> manager you're likely to see what you've added so far.

	It'll be two taps; rioght now, you tap tag-column, Add Tag,
Category, Tag. I'll be adding so the next time you tap in tag-column,
below Add Tag, it shows the tags form the last Add-Tag category you
chose. Suddenly, adding tags is two taps, after the first one.

> (c) the addition of the buttons is something that just struck me as
> convenient, that is, if you can already handle following a link and
> returning to this popup screen instead of the list on return to SP.  
> If that's true, I think all of this functionality is implemented, just
> not collected into this screen.

	Returning to popup screens ivery annoying to do, actually, and
each screen must be specially coded to handle it.

> ** Why is category for Tag list in Link manager not supported when you
> have a category list in the popup sequence from the tag itself?

	I've not had time to add supporting code to the link manager,
thats why :)  The tag categories are there and useful, but the link
manager must be coded to know how to render and manage those cats. It
doesnt' have it yet. I'm expecitng most peopel to use Add Tag to do their
tag manipulation.

> All in all, it just seems that management of the item's tag list is
> all that should appear in the popup menus available directly from the
> item.  I think the rest should be centered around the Link Manager,
> since Tags are just links (or you feel they should be treated that
> way, with which I whole-heartedly agree).

	I'd agree, except people maximize use of the screen by ditching as
many columns as possible, with custom or saved custom views; I dont'
expect peopel to have both link arrow and tag column.. probably one or the
other, or neither. As such, I keep them all usefull.

> These additions may make my suggestions less useful but, to be honest,
> I'll be impressed if you can make a general tag selection in just 2
> taps (especially since tapping the tag field is one of them!)

	muahua, I gotcha ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_