From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:35am
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

Well thought out...it makes sense


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth 
posting
> to the group).
> 
> 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> 
> 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> 
> 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> 
> I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is starting 
to
> get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test 
group -
> here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> 
> [C]Clipboard
> <unchanged>
> 
> [M]Managers
> Filter Manager
> Tag Manager
> View Manager
> Hilight Manager
> Tools Menu Manager
> 
> [V] Views
> <default views>
> <custom views>
> Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save space
> 
> [T] Tools
> Zoom level
> Zoom selected
> Expand all
> Collapse all
> Save now
> Recent files

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Well thought out...it makes sense

	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The way
it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff together,
keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may wish
to do or invoke.

	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?

		jeff

> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth 
> posting
> > to the group).
> > 
> > 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> > 
> > 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> > 
> > 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > 
> > I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is starting 
> to
> > get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test 
> group -
> > here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> > 
> > [C]Clipboard
> > <unchanged>
> > 
> > [M]Managers
> > Filter Manager
> > Tag Manager
> > View Manager
> > Hilight Manager
> > Tools Menu Manager
> > 
> > [V] Views
> > <default views>
> > <custom views>
> > Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save space
> > 
> > [T] Tools
> > Zoom level
> > Zoom selected
> > Expand all
> > Collapse all
> > Save now
> > Recent files
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:08am
Subject: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

what I picture is a Send to... command which applies to the currently 
selected item.  The user is presented with a pop up list of (recent 
or all) files and selects a destination.  The item is added to the 
bottom of that file.

Still debating myself whether this is a good idea, but I notice I do 
a lot of...

Cut/Copy to clipboard
Navigate to recent file
Paste

In some cases I do this lots and it would be nice to streamline the 
operation.  Why is this (for me)?  I have lots of different outlines, 
but often find myself capturing new items in a single "inbox" -- when 
I process the inbox it is mostly about moving these items into the 
outlines where they actually belong...

FWIW...

George Wyner

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:12am
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

Jeff, I don't know but is it a whole mission to enable something like 
that, also keep in mind that not every user is constanly viewing the 
shadow discussion messages, people in this groups are average to 
powerusers and their goal like with any app is to minimize taps in 
order to get what you want, so the gentleman has a point, I'd like to 
see how other people feel about it...but his setup may possibly 
minimize taps....on another note have you already tried PUN the new 
version, the one that takes advantage of the "goto" the developer 
says its suppose to work now but I have not been able to get it to 
jump to correct record in SP or DBK5.


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
> 
> > Well thought out...it makes sense
> 
> 	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The 
way
> it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff 
together,
> keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you 
may wish
> to do or invoke.
> 
> 	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth 
> > posting
> > > to the group).
> > > 
> > > 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> > > 
> > > 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> > > 
> > > 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> > > 
> > > 		jeff
> > > 
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > 
> > > I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is 
starting 
> > to
> > > get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test 
> > group -
> > > here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> > > 
> > > [C]Clipboard
> > > <unchanged>
> > > 
> > > [M]Managers
> > > Filter Manager
> > > Tag Manager
> > > View Manager
> > > Hilight Manager
> > > Tools Menu Manager
> > > 
> > > [V] Views
> > > <default views>
> > > <custom views>
> > > Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save 
space
> > > 
> > > [T] Tools
> > > Zoom level
> > > Zoom selected
> > > Expand all
> > > Collapse all
> > > Save now
> > > Recent files
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@e...
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Anthony Schellenberg  <aschell2000@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

This makes pretty good sense.  I think I'd like it.


>On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
>
> > Well thought out...it makes sense
>
>	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The way
>it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff together,
>keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may wish
>to do or invoke.
>
>	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?
>
>		jeff
>
> >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:17am
Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

I agree 100% with this thread, I'm always cutting/pasting as child, 
it would be cool to have to feature enabled, ie, "send to" and it 
would give you the same choices but under a parent, paste as child 
etc.etc... this would minimize # taps and help organize lists' 
quicker.... Great idea George


-- In shadow-discuss@y..., "geowyner" <gwyner@b...> wrote:
> what I picture is a Send to... command which applies to the 
currently 
> selected item.  The user is presented with a pop up list of (recent 
> or all) files and selects a destination.  The item is added to the 
> bottom of that file.
> 
> Still debating myself whether this is a good idea, but I notice I 
do 
> a lot of...
> 
> Cut/Copy to clipboard
> Navigate to recent file
> Paste
> 
> In some cases I do this lots and it would be nice to streamline the 
> operation.  Why is this (for me)?  I have lots of different 
outlines, 
> but often find myself capturing new items in a single "inbox" -- 
when 
> I process the inbox it is mostly about moving these items into the 
> outlines where they actually belong...
> 
> FWIW...
> 
> George Wyner

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:04am
Subject: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

OK.  I know that Jeff is not claiming that Shadow is a full-blown PM 
(at least not yet :) and that's fine by me.  Mostly I am interested 
in tracking what I need to do and grouping things together in ways 
that help me figure out what needs to happen next on various 
projects.  Shadow is working great for that.  

Here's the thing for me though:  sometimes I really need to be more 
systematic about scheduling my time.  If I have 2 or 3 projects (in 
the GTD sense) that aer each longer than say 10 hours and have a 
deadline within the next two weeks, I really need to get realistic 
about how many hours I need to spend on each of these projects each 
day to get them done.  As I carve off smaller subtasks and start to 
make progress on them, my understanding of the time commitment 
involved starts to evolve.  As time goes by and interruptions happen, 
whatever plan I have drawn up needs to evolve as well, both to 
capture the better estimates and the realities of my schedule.

So since this sounds a lot like project management, maybe the answer 
is to bite the bullet and start using Microsoft Project, but I am not 
convinced that I need all that horsepower and I don't think it will 
integrate that well into my current system.

So here then, is my fantasy about how Shadow Plan might work as a 
lightweight and tightly integrated project manager.  What I'd like to 
know is whether this really fits with Shadow and what I'd even more 
like to know is how to get at least some of this functionality in the 
meantime (I'll share my own thoughts about that down below)...

Tracking task duration.  I know that project managers track other 
resources besides time and that even time needs to be divided up into 
the work time of multiple individuals.  I figure when I need to track 
all that stuff its time to fire up MS Project or whatever.  For me, 
all I need is a single field associated with each task:  duration.  
That, combined with the existing Start, End, and Target fields would 
give me all I need.

Parent duration as total of child durations.  As I break things into 
subtasks and add estimates to those subtasks, I want these finer 
grained estimates to be totalled and used in place of the original 
estimate in the parent.  Here, I suppose, things can get 
complicated.  There are several options to choose from:  continue to 
use parent total, replace parent total entirely, let parent duration 
be a kind of residual duration to be added to all the subtasks (a way 
to pad the total).  No doubt there are other possibilities.  And I 
suppose you could set these options in the individual parents to make 
matters even more intricate.  At a minimum I would be happy with a 
global setting.

With this functionality added, Shadow would really help me in my 
project estimates.  Now for the real fantasy:  integration with the 
datebook:

To really get these tasks done, I ought to actually schedule them.  
However, a given task might require several blocks of time in my 
datebook to carry out.  What I would like to do is to be able to 
schedule these blocks of time and link them to a task in Shadow.  
Then I want to run a report where the scheduled time is treated as 
the "actual" and I can see it against the estimate I have.  Again, 
there are some issues:  the added complexity of one-to-many linking.  
What happens if I create a datebook appointment to do some work on 
the task and don't make progress?  All sorts of other things.

But what intrigues me is that instead of having a project schedule in 
a separate piece of software, I would have integrated the elements of 
project scheduling most relevant to personal time management right 
into the tools I am already using.

End of fantasy...

Now as I think about what I can really do today:

Estimates.  I suppose what I will do is put the estimates into the 
item descriptions -- for most of my projects I can add them up by 
hand or I can export the Shadow outline and import it into some other 
software to do that for me, I suppose (although probably not even 
worth it for the number of estimates I will make).  This method will 
take a bit more discipline than the automated approach (i.e. I have 
to put a bit more work in) and will tend to discourage detailed 
estimates.

Scheduling.  Apparently Datebk5 allows you to filter a view by some 
key phrase and then get a total duration.  That ought to allow me to 
keep track of whether I have scheduled enough time.  (Once I upgrade 
and figure out how it works...)  Again, my sense is that this will 
take a fair bit of discipline and that having tighter integration 
would lead to a qualitative difference in how effectively such 
scheduling would be.

So let me know what you all think... I have to confess that I am very 
lax about this kind of scheduling so that maybe the issue for me is 
discipline more than software.  Anyway, I feel better for having 
gotten all that down on "paper."

Shadow Plan is cool.  Best to all...

George

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:07am
Subject: Re: Archive

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:24:38 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>I would like to do such a thing.. really, I feel Archive
>isn't
>very useful right now. I have considered an origin-stamp sort of
>deal in
>its note field, though.

That would work too, maybe even better...I was thinking that 
including the file as a TLI would be easier. Oh well, just some 
thoughts for when you're bored...definitly not a high priority, just 
for when you're working in that area of the code.
-- 
220, 221 ... whatever it takes
learned@t... on 06/18/2002

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:52:45 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The
>way
>it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff
>together,
>keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may
>wish
>to do or invoke.
>
>Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?

This is well thought out, but I also like the idea of adding a [T] 
Tag popup that was discussed in another thread...that had a lot of 
power too.
-- 
220, 221 ... whatever it takes
learned@t... on 06/18/2002

From: Jacob Share  <jacob@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:48am
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

I don't think the current popups are confusing, but I wonder where the Tag manager could be added unless you used [T] for it. That said, I do think I would prefer this newer design. You could poll us...

What would the 'View Manager' be? The same thing as [V]? 

What would the 'Tools Menu Manager' be? If this makes the [T] popup customizable, yahoo ;)

Maybe I don't know because I'm not following the alphas :)

Jacob




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: hanlk  <hanlk@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:47am
Subject: To Do link

I really like the way Shadow can link its items to the To Do 
database. However, it only places the item name into the To Do task 
description field. I know there is an option to put the origin in the 
note field but that isn't shown in the To-Do listing. As I have a lot 
of projects with similiar task descriptions, it would be great if 
Shadow could append the parent text into the To Do field. For e.g.

Task 1
   -Task 1.1
       -Task 1.2

would read in the To Do list as:

"Task 1 - Task 1.1 - Task 1.2"

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 0:17pm
Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:

> what I picture is a Send to... command which applies to the currently 
> selected item.  The user is presented with a pop up list of (recent 
> or all) files and selects a destination.  The item is added to the 
> bottom of that file.
> 
> Still debating myself whether this is a good idea, but I notice I do 
> a lot of...
> 
> Cut/Copy to clipboard
> Navigate to recent file
> Paste
> 
> In some cases I do this lots and it would be nice to streamline the 
> operation.  Why is this (for me)?  I have lots of different outlines, 
> but often find myself capturing new items in a single "inbox" -- when 
> I process the inbox it is mostly about moving these items into the 
> outlines where they actually belong...

	I'm actually planning on a "Send to ..." clipboard operation; clip
things to the clipboard, then send them to another file using the [C]
popmenu, or a Edit menu item.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 0:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Jeff, I don't know but is it a whole mission to enable something like 
> that, also keep in mind that not every user is constanly viewing the 
> shadow discussion messages, people in this groups are average to 
> powerusers and their goal like with any app is to minimize taps in 
> order to get what you want, so the gentleman has a point, I'd like to 
> see how other people feel about it...but his setup may possibly 

	Thats why I'm posting in shadow-discuss :) To gather input.
Changing the UI is a reasonably serious affair (internally, to to the
users), so I try and avoid doing so. Really, I'd like to revamp a lot of
the UI, but it will take much time, and would require everyone to play
with things to figure it out, so its somethign I'm leaving for later. But
if this set of changes are good and everyone wants them, they're doable,
since they're just in the top right popmenus, which I'm betting are less
used by average joe.

> minimize taps....on another note have you already tried PUN the new 
> version, the one that takes advantage of the "goto" the developer 
> says its suppose to work now but I have not been able to get it to 
> jump to correct record in SP or DBK5.

	Never used PUN, and don't intend to ;) (ie: Theres a lot of things
out there, and I cannot test against them all). Shadow and DateBk's "goto"
handlers work (they've been working for years), so the problem is likely
his ;)

	I can perhaps do some experimenting to help him debug, if need
be. He can contact me.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Samuel J. Radcliffe  <samr@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:31pm
Subject: RE: Re: Revamp popmenus?

I think the choices ought to be grouped by function and operand (view, item,
list):

+[C] Clipboard
	- <unchanged>

+[O] View Options
	+ Filter Manager
	+ Highlight Manager
	+ Zooms
		- Zoom to level
		- Zoom inside selection
	+ Expand
		-Expand all
		-Collapse all

+[V] View Selector
	+ Standard Views
		- Checklist
		- Note
		- etc
	+ Custom Views
		- View Manager
		- Custom #1
		- Custom #2
		- etc

+[I] Item Operations
	+ Add Tag
		- Category
			- tags
		- Last added tag
		- Second to last
		- Third to last
	+ Remove Tag
		- Tag #1
		- Tag #2
		- etc
	+ Tag Manager
	+ Link Manager
	+ Toggle Item Highlight (bold)
	+ Item Type
		- List's Type
		- Checklist
		- etc

+[L] List Operations
	+ Revert to Last
	+ Save now
	+ Recent files
	+ Import
	+ Export
	+ <merge>
	+ <save as>


I also suggest removing tag ops from Link Manager and putting them into Tag
Manager. Jeff, I know these suggestions represent a lot of work, and I'm not
pushing hard for this re-org, but these changes would tidy things up, IMO.

...Sam



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 9:53 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Revamp popmenus?
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
>
> > Well thought out...it makes sense
>
> 	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The way
> it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff together,
> keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may wish
> to do or invoke.
>
> 	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?
>
> 		jeff
>
> >
> >
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth
> > posting
> > > to the group).
> > >
> > > 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> > >
> > > 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> > >
> > > 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> > >
> > > 		jeff
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >
> > > I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is starting
> > to
> > > get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test
> > group -
> > > here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> > >
> > > [C]Clipboard
> > > <unchanged>
> > >
> > > [M]Managers
> > > Filter Manager
> > > Tag Manager
> > > View Manager
> > > Hilight Manager
> > > Tools Menu Manager
> > >
> > > [V] Views
> > > <default views>
> > > <custom views>
> > > Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save space
> > >
> > > [T] Tools
> > > Zoom level
> > > Zoom selected
> > > Expand all
> > > Collapse all
> > > Save now
> > > Recent files
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:30pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:

> Here's the thing for me though:  sometimes I really need to be more
> systematic about scheduling my time.  If I have 2 or 3 projects (in
> the GTD sense) that aer each longer than say 10 hours and have a
> deadline within the next two weeks, I really need to get realistic
> about how many hours I need to spend on each of these projects each
> day to get them done.  As I carve off smaller subtasks and start to
> make progress on them, my understanding of the time commitment
> involved starts to evolve.  As time goes by and interruptions happen,
> whatever plan I have drawn up needs to evolve as well, both to capture
> the better estimates and the realities of my schedule.
> 
> So since this sounds a lot like project management, maybe the answer 
> is to bite the bullet and start using Microsoft Project, but I am not 
> convinced that I need all that horsepower and I don't think it will 
> integrate that well into my current system.

	I am intending on adding "weighting" to items; I've not defined it
yet, but the idea is to adjust how much child items factor into their
parents rolled up completion. ie: Right now, each item weighs in at
1.. one item takes 1 unit, so all items have the same weight. But if you
have 3 children, and make one weight 2, and the others way 1, then its now
out of a total of 4 points, and the one item accounts for 50%.

	Sounds like what you want; the question is a UI one. I am thinking
of letting one specify a weight of between 1-200 or the like, or iodeally,
1-20, and let you tell yourself what the numbers mean (like say hours, or
minutes, or two hours per unit, but that'd be confusing). Once I figure
out how I wish to UI it, I can proceed to add it. A reasonably simple code
change to support it, but a complex question of what is needed in the UI.

> So here then, is my fantasy about how Shadow Plan might work as a
> lightweight and tightly integrated project manager.  What I'd like to
> know is whether this really fits with Shadow and what I'd even more
> like to know is how to get at least some of this functionality in the
> meantime (I'll share my own thoughts about that down below)...
> 
> Tracking task duration.  I know that project managers track other 
> resources besides time and that even time needs to be divided up into 
> the work time of multiple individuals.  I figure when I need to track 
> all that stuff its time to fire up MS Project or whatever.  For me, 
> all I need is a single field associated with each task:  duration.  
> That, combined with the existing Start, End, and Target fields would 
> give me all I need.

	I hope to add a "misc field" that you can enter anything you want
into, but that is a ways off. Perhaps you can define tags for "units of
time", and then assign those. (Tags are coming very soon; they let you
create "categories", and assign any number of them to an item. The tags
can be any arbitrary string/symbolic-name.. so you can create tags called
"John", "Home", "Important", or "10 hours". You coudl tag an item with
"Home" and "10 hours", and make filters to select only home projects to
see what you need ot do and how long. But you can't do summation or the
liek with tags.. they're symbolic, and not "numbers".

> Parent duration as total of child durations.  As I break things into 
> subtasks and add estimates to those subtasks, I want these finer 
> grained estimates to be totalled and used in place of the original 
> estimate in the parent.  Here, I suppose, things can get 
> complicated.  There are several options to choose from:  continue to 
> use parent total, replace parent total entirely, let parent duration 
> be a kind of residual duration to be added to all the subtasks (a way 
> to pad the total).  No doubt there are other possibilities.  And I 
> suppose you could set these options in the individual parents to make 
> matters even more intricate.  At a minimum I would be happy with a 
> global setting.

	Parents will be the sum of their childrens completion. It keeps
things simple, intuitive, and useful. Unless theres a good case otherwise.

> With this functionality added, Shadow would really help me in my
> project estimates.  Now for the real fantasy:  integration with the
> datebook:
> 
> To really get these tasks done, I ought to actually schedule them.  
> However, a given task might require several blocks of time in my 
> datebook to carry out.  What I would like to do is to be able to 
> schedule these blocks of time and link them to a task in Shadow.  

	You can already do this :) (see Link Manager)

> Then I want to run a report where the scheduled time is treated as 
> the "actual" and I can see it against the estimate I have.  Again, 
> there are some issues:  the added complexity of one-to-many linking.  
> What happens if I create a datebook appointment to do some work on 
> the task and don't make progress?  All sorts of other things.

	Reporting is immensely complicated; the datebook applications
cannot log time applied or th elike.. they just aer appointments, not
record keepers. You'd need another system to log what work you've actually
done. So datebook solutions are out.

	Its not a one to many; if one task has 5 time slots to complete
it, you create children underneath it, linking each to the datebook.

> Estimates.  I suppose what I will do is put the estimates into the 
> item descriptions -- for most of my projects I can add them up by 
> hand or I can export the Shadow outline and import it into some other 
> software to do that for me, I suppose (although probably not even 
> worth it for the number of estimates I will make).  This method will 
> take a bit more discipline than the automated approach (i.e. I have 
> to put a bit more work in) and will tend to discourage detailed 
> estimates.

	Tags may help; not exactly what you want, but could be pretty
helpful. (You can have a tag column to display the "prime tag" onscreen)

> Scheduling.  Apparently Datebk5 allows you to filter a view by some
> key phrase and then get a total duration.  That ought to allow me to
> keep track of whether I have scheduled enough time.  (Once I upgrade
> and figure out how it works...)  Again, my sense is that this will
> take a fair bit of discipline and that having tighter integration
> would lead to a qualitative difference in how effectively such
> scheduling would be.
> 
> So let me know what you all think... I have to confess that I am very 
> lax about this kind of scheduling so that maybe the issue for me is 
> discipline more than software.  Anyway, I feel better for having 
> gotten all that down on "paper."

	Disciplin is always the hardest piece of any system; anyone can
create a system they stick with for 2 weeks, but sticking with it for 6mo
is damned near impossible ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Jacob Share wrote:

> I don't think the current popups are confusing, but I wonder where the
> Tag manager could be added unless you used [T] for it. That said, I do
> think I would prefer this newer design. You could poll us...

	[F] has the Tag Manager now, since Tags are essentially for
filtering.

> What would the 'View Manager' be? The same thing as [V]? 

	View Manager is in the upcoming release; you know custom views in
Shadow? View Manager lets you have any number of saved views, and assign
them to individual items, and attach filters (custom or built in) to the
views.

> What would the 'Tools Menu Manager' be? If this makes the [T] popup
> customizable, yahoo ;)

	Tools is the renamed Help menu, with the managers under
it. (ie: Instead of just being Prefs and About, it is View Manager, Tag
Manager, Filter Manager, About, Register)

> Maybe I don't know because I'm not following the alphas :)

	Right. The alpha will be beta very soon, where you can see it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: Re: To Do link

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, hanlk wrote:

> I really like the way Shadow can link its items to the To Do 
> database. However, it only places the item name into the To Do task 
> description field. I know there is an option to put the origin in the 
> note field but that isn't shown in the To-Do listing. As I have a lot 
> of projects with similiar task descriptions, it would be great if 
> Shadow could append the parent text into the To Do field. For e.g.
> 
> Task 1
>    -Task 1.1
>        -Task 1.2
> 
> would read in the To Do list as:
> 
> "Task 1 - Task 1.1 - Task 1.2"

	Short answer: Can't.

	Medium answer: Thats why the note origin appending is there ;)

	Long answer: The todo has a finite title length, and a finite
length of usefullness. If your Shadow item is 5 levels deep, we need to
include the filename (20 characters or so), plus the 5 parents (eachbeing
up to 250 characters), and your todo is suddenly both overfilled (todo has
limits), and fills your entire screen with info that isn't actually the
todo. Its distracting from the purpose.. which is the todo task at
hand. Then what happens if your item is 10 levels deep :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: grn_white  <michael.walter@r...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:33pm
Subject: Shadow link hack, other goodies, performance hit

Must say I am extremely happy that Ling developed the shadowlink hack. 
This is what I have been wanting to do but haven't had time to do by 
setting up megawiki.  I know I'm not supposed to talk about the alphas 
but everyone is going to love the new goodies coming soon.  Jeff I 
have noticed a fairly significant performance hit since I installed 
the latest alpha.  And I have not set up custom views or tags yet. 
Even running Afterburner at 257% (on Palm IIIxe) there is a noticeable 
time lag to load shadow, open lists etc.  I don't have alot of spare 
memory - @ 400K - does this affect matters/  All my shadow lists 
together only take up about 350K.

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:13pm
Subject: Long Sync Times

Jeff, what do you consider large files? My largest is around 20000, and 
I'm now 20 minutes into a sync.

Ed

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:58pm
Subject: More fantasizing

If fantasizing is allowed I have one for the desktop.

It would be like the old ECCO Pro. (which I still miss)

Could all fields (except notes) be in columns on the right of the 
items, including tags.  Then you could set them by clicking on the 
columns you want.

I realize this would be a major change but like said, just a fantasy!

Gerry

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:04pm
Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

Jeff,

That would be perfect!

George

At 08:17 AM 6/18/02 -0400, Jeff Mitchell wrote:


>       I'm actually planning on a "Send to ..." clipboard operation; clip
>things to the clipboard, then send them to another file using the [C]
>popmenu, or a Edit menu item.
>
>             jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


----------
George Wyner:  { <http://smgnet.bu.edu/fac/profile.cfm?key=WynerGeorge>web 
| <mailto:gwyner@b...>gwyner@b... | 
<mailto:6177336517@m...>617 733-6517 | 
<aim:goim?screenname=geowyn&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?>AOL!IM:geowyn | 
<http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=geowyner&.src=pg>Y!IM:geowyner 
| <http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=66937211>ICQ:66937211 | MSN!IM:gwyner }

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:12pm
Subject: Re: Shadow link hack, other goodies, performance hit

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, grn_white wrote:

> Must say I am extremely happy that Ling developed the shadowlink hack. 
> This is what I have been wanting to do but haven't had time to do by 
> setting up megawiki.  I know I'm not supposed to talk about the alphas 
> but everyone is going to love the new goodies coming soon.  Jeff I 
> have noticed a fairly significant performance hit since I installed 
> the latest alpha.  And I have not set up custom views or tags yet. 
> Even running Afterburner at 257% (on Palm IIIxe) there is a noticeable 
> time lag to load shadow, open lists etc.  I don't have alot of spare 
> memory - @ 400K - does this affect matters/  All my shadow lists 
> together only take up about 350K.

	Why not bring this to shadow-test where it belongs? I'll answer
privately, so as not to pollute -discuss with -test answerts.

	In short, there should be no performance hit.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:02pm
Subject: Re: Yet another screen resolution for Jeff to support... ;-)

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	4) Selling Shadow to schools would be big on my list ;)

Looks like AlphaSmart has partnered with Hands High and their Thought
Manager software:

http://www.handshigh.com/html/contest.html

 - Jeramy

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:40pm
Subject: Long Sync Times

Jeff,

I just cancelled a sync after 2 hours. The longest file I have is 16k
according to the pdb backup on the desktop.

Ed

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Long Sync Times

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Learned wrote:

> Jeff, what do you consider large files? My largest is around 20000, and 
> I'm now 20 minutes into a sync.

	Sounds iffy; Shadow sync varies by how many files you have, but 20
mins is out of what. You can sync a few dozen files in a couple
minutes. There is some rare bug in there that causes a loop. I'm planning
on spending July fixing up the conduit.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Yet another screen resolution for Jeff to support... ;-)

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, fiatspider72 wrote:

> > 	4) Selling Shadow to schools would be big on my list ;)
> 
> Looks like AlphaSmart has partnered with Hands High and their Thought
> Manager software:
> 
> http://www.handshigh.com/html/contest.html

	Their loss ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:41pm
Subject: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

I'm going to dash ahead of the alpha group here, I think. Shadow
2.2.10a seems pretty stable and reliable and very useful, though it does
have a couple of minor glitches still, and I've not written any
documentation for the many new features yet. I intend on writing some docs
and getting things ready for release in a few days or a week.

	But I wanted to widen up the testing and get some more user
experience. Is this too difficult to use (theres no docs, so we'll see how
many questions you ask). The questions you ask may help guide me to where
I need to focus the documentation on. Let me know if you see any glitches,
or have any wants or desires or improvements.. let me know what you think.

	As a rule; download this *BETA* (knowing it has bugs, though not
too many) ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO POST FEEDBACK! (good or bad. Good is
equally valid, so I know what you like!)

	Thje new features are not documented. There is no installer. This
is just the raw .prc file.. send it up to your handheld the way you know
how. If you don't know how, dont' touch a beta!

	The main new things here are:

	1) Customizable and savable filters
	2) Customizable and savable views (list can be a saved view, and
any item can be a saved view, even)
	3) Tags; you can tag an item with any number of "tags" (like
attributes), to represent place, people, state, whatever.

	Points to know:

	1) See the Link Manager -- you can add and delete tags there
	2) The Tag column (in Worksheet list type, or you can add it in a
custom view of your own) lets you add tags and change the primary tag with
minimal taps (and better to come)
	3) Custom filters can filter by tag!
	4) You can sort (group) by tag
	5) Views can have a filter associated to them, so when you change
views, the filter becomes activated

	Theres lots to play with. I know its a lot more powerful, and more
complicated, than previous changes. But let me know what you think:

	A) Is this stuff too complicated?
	B) How would you like it improved?
	C) Any performance problems?

	And most importantly..

	D) How do you like the new stuff? Views, tags, custom filters?

	Get it here.. and remember, you must post back feedback to here,
or to shadow-test, or to me.

	This is BETA. This is unfinished. We are adding features to make
it easier and faster to add tags, and move filters around so you can
manually sort them, and other little details.

	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2210a.zip

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:12pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

Great news Jeff...if I may suggest the following, prior to Shadowlink 
Hack I guess there was Linker and MegaWiki and a few others but I'm 
guessing MW was the most used due to all its capabilities despite its 
huge learning curve(piki-for me) When you prepare the documentation 
if you can include a nice explanation of what a TAG is and how its 
used, perhaps a "Tag for dummies" kind of explanation would probably 
help a lot of user especially new ones to Shadow, so if you can 
explain tags as you would to a child then that would be great...What 
I would not like is that your explanations are similar to MW's since 
I don't feel like their manual is so clear especially for new user..I 
think that if you explain these more complicated topics at a very 
elementary level then it would rock...



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	I'm going to dash ahead of the alpha group here, I think. 
Shadow
> 2.2.10a seems pretty stable and reliable and very useful, though it 
does
> have a couple of minor glitches still, and I've not written any
> documentation for the many new features yet. I intend on writing 
some docs
> and getting things ready for release in a few days or a week.
> 
> 	But I wanted to widen up the testing and get some more user
> experience. Is this too difficult to use (theres no docs, so we'll 
see how
> many questions you ask). The questions you ask may help guide me to 
where
> I need to focus the documentation on. Let me know if you see any 
glitches,
> or have any wants or desires or improvements.. let me know what you 
think.
> 
> 	As a rule; download this *BETA* (knowing it has bugs, though 
not
> too many) ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO POST FEEDBACK! (good or bad. Good is
> equally valid, so I know what you like!)
> 
> 	Thje new features are not documented. There is no installer. 
This
> is just the raw .prc file.. send it up to your handheld the way you 
know
> how. If you don't know how, dont' touch a beta!
> 
> 	The main new things here are:
> 
> 	1) Customizable and savable filters
> 	2) Customizable and savable views (list can be a saved view, 
and
> any item can be a saved view, even)
> 	3) Tags; you can tag an item with any number of "tags" (like
> attributes), to represent place, people, state, whatever.
> 
> 	Points to know:
> 
> 	1) See the Link Manager -- you can add and delete tags there
> 	2) The Tag column (in Worksheet list type, or you can add it 
in a
> custom view of your own) lets you add tags and change the primary 
tag with
> minimal taps (and better to come)
> 	3) Custom filters can filter by tag!
> 	4) You can sort (group) by tag
> 	5) Views can have a filter associated to them, so when you 
change
> views, the filter becomes activated
> 
> 	Theres lots to play with. I know its a lot more powerful, and 
more
> complicated, than previous changes. But let me know what you think:
> 
> 	A) Is this stuff too complicated?
> 	B) How would you like it improved?
> 	C) Any performance problems?
> 
> 	And most importantly..
> 
> 	D) How do you like the new stuff? Views, tags, custom filters?
> 
> 	Get it here.. and remember, you must post back feedback to 
here,
> or to shadow-test, or to me.
> 
> 	This is BETA. This is unfinished. We are adding features to 
make
> it easier and faster to add tags, and move filters around so you can
> manually sort them, and other little details.
> 
> 	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2210a.zip
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:23pm
Subject: RE: Re: Revamp popmenus?

Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?

I like the new layout, though it may take a bit of getting used to. It
makes more logical sense, though I bet I'll find myself tapping the
wrong things for a while!

Jen

-------------
PocketGoddess
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Great news Jeff...if I may suggest the following, prior to Shadowlink 
> Hack I guess there was Linker and MegaWiki and a few others but I'm 
> guessing MW was the most used due to all its capabilities despite its 
> huge learning curve(piki-for me) When you prepare the documentation 
> if you can include a nice explanation of what a TAG is and how its 
> used, perhaps a "Tag for dummies" kind of explanation would probably 
> help a lot of user especially new ones to Shadow, so if you can 
> explain tags as you would to a child then that would be great...What 
> I would not like is that your explanations are similar to MW's since 
> I don't feel like their manual is so clear especially for new user..I 
> think that if you explain these more complicated topics at a very 
> elementary level then it would rock...

	I'm hoping to begin a "user guide" for Shadow 2.5 (2.2.10, with
changes and fixes, will become 2.5). Its a tonne of work, so for 2.5 I'll
liekly just include a "user guide" which is 3 or 4 little topics covered
in a reasonably easy way to understand. Then by the time I get to Shadow
3, maybe the user guide will be helpfull :)

	But I think the biggest thing missing for Shadow.. is easy docs.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:21pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

Wow!  Thanks for the detailed response!

Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:

1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your proposal to 
just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I suppose you could 
add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but that's not very 
important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then I have 
just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required as a tag 
and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since my estimates 
can easily be totalled by hand.

2.  Given all the above, the "misc" field is much less of a priority for me.

3.  I knew about the link between items and datebook entries, but was 
concerned about the one-to-many issue.  Your suggestion that I do the 
individual time slots as children makes total sense and solves a big 
problem for me.

So my current plan is:

Set up tags to track the hours required.  Link to the datebook using link 
manager.  If I use children to handle multiple time slots, as you suggest, 
then I can see how much time I have actually allotted in my calendar to 
handle everything.  The only issue remaining (as far as I can tell) is that 
the linked datebook entries start out life as "no time" and I would need to 
manually move them to the appropriate time on my calendar.  That seems like 
a small amount of editing given everything else that I would get from this.

So I will try installing the beta and give it a try!

Thanks!

George

At 09:30 AM 6/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:
>
> > Here's the thing for me though:  sometimes I really need to be more
> > systematic about scheduling my time.  If I have 2 or 3 projects (in
> > the GTD sense) that aer each longer than say 10 hours and have a
> > deadline within the next two weeks, I really need to get realistic
> > about how many hours I need to spend on each of these projects each
> > day to get them done.  As I carve off smaller subtasks and start to
> > make progress on them, my understanding of the time commitment
> > involved starts to evolve.  As time goes by and interruptions happen,
> > whatever plan I have drawn up needs to evolve as well, both to capture
> > the better estimates and the realities of my schedule.
> >
> > So since this sounds a lot like project management, maybe the answer
> > is to bite the bullet and start using Microsoft Project, but I am not
> > convinced that I need all that horsepower and I don't think it will
> > integrate that well into my current system.
>
>       I am intending on adding "weighting" to items; I've not defined it
>yet, but the idea is to adjust how much child items factor into their
>parents rolled up completion. ie: Right now, each item weighs in at
>1.. one item takes 1 unit, so all items have the same weight. But if you
>have 3 children, and make one weight 2, and the others way 1, then its now
>out of a total of 4 points, and the one item accounts for 50%.
>
>       Sounds like what you want; the question is a UI one. I am thinking
>of letting one specify a weight of between 1-200 or the like, or iodeally,
>1-20, and let you tell yourself what the numbers mean (like say hours, or
>minutes, or two hours per unit, but that'd be confusing). Once I figure
>out how I wish to UI it, I can proceed to add it. A reasonably simple code
>change to support it, but a complex question of what is needed in the UI.
>
> > So here then, is my fantasy about how Shadow Plan might work as a
> > lightweight and tightly integrated project manager.  What I'd like to
> > know is whether this really fits with Shadow and what I'd even more
> > like to know is how to get at least some of this functionality in the
> > meantime (I'll share my own thoughts about that down below)...
> >
> > Tracking task duration.  I know that project managers track other
> > resources besides time and that even time needs to be divided up into
> > the work time of multiple individuals.  I figure when I need to track
> > all that stuff its time to fire up MS Project or whatever.  For me,
> > all I need is a single field associated with each task:  duration.
> > That, combined with the existing Start, End, and Target fields would
> > give me all I need.
>
>       I hope to add a "misc field" that you can enter anything you want
>into, but that is a ways off. Perhaps you can define tags for "units of
>time", and then assign those. (Tags are coming very soon; they let you
>create "categories", and assign any number of them to an item. The tags
>can be any arbitrary string/symbolic-name.. so you can create tags called
>"John", "Home", "Important", or "10 hours". You coudl tag an item with
>"Home" and "10 hours", and make filters to select only home projects to
>see what you need ot do and how long. But you can't do summation or the
>liek with tags.. they're symbolic, and not "numbers".
>
> > Parent duration as total of child durations.  As I break things into
> > subtasks and add estimates to those subtasks, I want these finer
> > grained estimates to be totalled and used in place of the original
> > estimate in the parent.  Here, I suppose, things can get
> > complicated.  There are several options to choose from:  continue to
> > use parent total, replace parent total entirely, let parent duration
> > be a kind of residual duration to be added to all the subtasks (a way
> > to pad the total).  No doubt there are other possibilities.  And I
> > suppose you could set these options in the individual parents to make
> > matters even more intricate.  At a minimum I would be happy with a
> > global setting.
>
>       Parents will be the sum of their childrens completion. It keeps
>things simple, intuitive, and useful. Unless theres a good case otherwise.
>
> > With this functionality added, Shadow would really help me in my
> > project estimates.  Now for the real fantasy:  integration with the
> > datebook:
> >
> > To really get these tasks done, I ought to actually schedule them.
> > However, a given task might require several blocks of time in my
> > datebook to carry out.  What I would like to do is to be able to
> > schedule these blocks of time and link them to a task in Shadow.
>
>       You can already do this :) (see Link Manager)
>
> > Then I want to run a report where the scheduled time is treated as
> > the "actual" and I can see it against the estimate I have.  Again,
> > there are some issues:  the added complexity of one-to-many linking.
> > What happens if I create a datebook appointment to do some work on
> > the task and don't make progress?  All sorts of other things.
>
>       Reporting is immensely complicated; the datebook applications
>cannot log time applied or th elike.. they just aer appointments, not
>record keepers. You'd need another system to log what work you've actually
>done. So datebook solutions are out.
>
>       Its not a one to many; if one task has 5 time slots to complete
>it, you create children underneath it, linking each to the datebook.
>
> > Estimates.  I suppose what I will do is put the estimates into the
> > item descriptions -- for most of my projects I can add them up by
> > hand or I can export the Shadow outline and import it into some other
> > software to do that for me, I suppose (although probably not even
> > worth it for the number of estimates I will make).  This method will
> > take a bit more discipline than the automated approach (i.e. I have
> > to put a bit more work in) and will tend to discourage detailed
> > estimates.
>
>       Tags may help; not exactly what you want, but could be pretty
>helpful. (You can have a tag column to display the "prime tag" onscreen)
>
> > Scheduling.  Apparently Datebk5 allows you to filter a view by some
> > key phrase and then get a total duration.  That ought to allow me to
> > keep track of whether I have scheduled enough time.  (Once I upgrade
> > and figure out how it works...)  Again, my sense is that this will
> > take a fair bit of discipline and that having tighter integration
> > would lead to a qualitative difference in how effectively such
> > scheduling would be.
> >
> > So let me know what you all think... I have to confess that I am very
> > lax about this kind of scheduling so that maybe the issue for me is
> > discipline more than software.  Anyway, I feel better for having
> > gotten all that down on "paper."
>
>       Disciplin is always the hardest piece of any system; anyone can
>create a system they stick with for 2 weeks, but sticking with it for 6mo
>is damned near impossible ;)
>
>             jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


----------
George Wyner:  { <http://smgnet.bu.edu/fac/profile.cfm?key=WynerGeorge>web 
| <mailto:gwyner@b...>gwyner@b... | 
<mailto:6177336517@m...>617 733-6517 | 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, George Wyner wrote:

> Wow!  Thanks for the detailed response!
> 
> Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:
> 
> 1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your proposal to 
> just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I suppose you could 
> add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but that's not very 
> important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then I have 
> just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required as a tag 
> and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since my estimates 
> can easily be totalled by hand.

	To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250 (say), and
then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or two :P

> 2.  Given all the above, the "misc" field is much less of a priority
> for me.

	Yep, thats why I let it slide. I'd like to do it, but..

> 3.  I knew about the link between items and datebook entries, but was
> concerned about the one-to-many issue.  Your suggestion that I do the
> individual time slots as children makes total sense and solves a big
> problem for me.

	Its the Outline way; that which cannot be done in one item, you
make children :)

> So my current plan is:
> 
> Set up tags to track the hours required.  Link to the datebook using
> link manager.  If I use children to handle multiple time slots, as you
> suggest, then I can see how much time I have actually allotted in my
> calendar to handle everything.  The only issue remaining (as far as I
> can tell) is that the linked datebook entries start out life as "no
> time" and I would need to manually move them to the appropriate time
> on my calendar.  That seems like a small amount of editing given
> everything else that I would get from this.

	And you can use the "Goto" to jump to Datebook. If you go to Link
Prefs, you can set "Return to Shadow" so that you can do a Goto to jump to
the datebook item, mess with it,set alarms, etc, and then just hit the
Home button to appear back in Shadow :)

		Enjoy :)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:20pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

> > 
> > Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:
> > 
> > 1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your 
proposal to 
> > just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I 
suppose you could 
> > add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but 
that's not very 
> > important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then 
I have 
> > just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required 
as a tag 
> > and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since 
my estimates 
> > can easily be totalled by hand.
> 
> 	To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250 
(say), and
> then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or 
two :P
> 

Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight 
tags and assign them, then sort or filter.

From: Michael Rudnick  <egroups@R...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 0:16pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

Jeff,

The new tags, views and custom filters look to be a major improvement
in an already excellent product. I can see ways that I will use all of
them to manage my projects and tasks. A few specific comments:

- I really like the ability to create a view with a filter associated
  with it. This is a major usability feature.
- If I create view "V1" with filter "F1" and view "V2" without
  checking the filter box then when I go from V2 to V2, the filter
  stays on. I see how to turn it off by checking the box and choosing
  "All" but I wonder if that will be confusing to some. I recommend
  that if the box isn't checked, then the filter is removed.
  Alternatively there could be another checkbox to say "Keep existing
  filter" or something like that.
- I want a faster way to setup tags on a task. If the tag column is
  showing it's 4 clicks to assign a tag. Could we do it in two (click
  on column and all the tags show up, then click on the tag)?
- As a lefty, I find changing views clumsy. Also, I wonder if the list
  will get so long it will be unwieldy. Could we get a popup list that
  just shows views? Could we have a preference setting that shows or
  hides the standard views within this list(Checklist, Note, Tasklist,
  etc.)?

Thanks.
--
Michael Rudnick                         
egroups@r...

Tuesday, June 18, 2002, 2:41:23 PM, you wrote:

JM>       I'm going to dash ahead of the alpha group here, I think. Shadow
JM> 2.2.10a seems pretty stable and reliable and very useful, though it does
JM> have a couple of minor glitches still, and I've not written any
JM> documentation for the many new features yet. I intend on writing some docs
JM> and getting things ready for release in a few days or a week.

JM>       But I wanted to widen up the testing and get some more user
JM> experience. Is this too difficult to use (theres no docs, so we'll see how
JM> many questions you ask). The questions you ask may help guide me to where
JM> I need to focus the documentation on. Let me know if you see any glitches,
JM> or have any wants or desires or improvements.. let me know what you think.

JM>       As a rule; download this *BETA* (knowing it has bugs, though not
JM> too many) ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO POST FEEDBACK! (good or bad. Good is
JM> equally valid, so I know what you like!)

JM>       Thje new features are not documented. There is no installer. This
JM> is just the raw .prc file.. send it up to your handheld the way you know
JM> how. If you don't know how, dont' touch a beta!

JM>       The main new things here are:

JM>       1) Customizable and savable filters
JM>       2) Customizable and savable views (list can be a saved view, and
JM> any item can be a saved view, even)
JM>       3) Tags; you can tag an item with any number of "tags" (like
JM> attributes), to represent place, people, state, whatever.

JM>       Points to know:

JM>       1) See the Link Manager -- you can add and delete tags there
JM>       2) The Tag column (in Worksheet list type, or you can add it in a
JM> custom view of your own) lets you add tags and change the primary tag with
JM> minimal taps (and better to come)
JM>       3) Custom filters can filter by tag!
JM>       4) You can sort (group) by tag
JM>       5) Views can have a filter associated to them, so when you change
JM> views, the filter becomes activated

JM>       Theres lots to play with. I know its a lot more powerful, and more
JM> complicated, than previous changes. But let me know what you think:

JM>       A) Is this stuff too complicated?
JM>       B) How would you like it improved?
JM>       C) Any performance problems?

JM>       And most importantly..

JM>       D) How do you like the new stuff? Views, tags, custom filters?

JM>       Get it here.. and remember, you must post back feedback to here,
JM> or to shadow-test, or to me.

JM>       This is BETA. This is unfinished. We are adding features to make
JM> it easier and faster to add tags, and move filters around so you can
JM> manually sort them, and other little details.

JM>       http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2210a.zip

JM>             jeff

JM> --
JM> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
JM> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
JM> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
JM> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


JM> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
JM> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



JM> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

From: smasters@a...
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

But will the parent sum up its children's "priorities"? This was going to
be the nice thing about weighting. Would this take more than a day or two?
Even nicer if this number is combined with % complete, i.e., if the weight
of a child is 4 and it's 25% complete, then the parent would use "3 out of
4 remaining" to determine overall % complete. Truly wonderful.

Scott



                                                                                                                   
                    "llgriffll"                                                                                    
                    <keith@t...        To:     shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com                                    
                    ff.net>              cc:                                                                       
                                         Subject:     [shadow-discuss] Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project   
                    06/18/2002           manager...                                                                
                    06:20 PM                                                                                       
                    Please                                                                                         
                    respond to                                                                                     
                    shadow-discus                                                                                  
                    s                                                                                              
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   





>
>          To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250
(say), and
> then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or
two :P
>

Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight
tags and assign them, then sort or filter.





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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From: stugib_2000  <stuart.gibbons@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

Some initial thoughts after using 2.2.10 for a couple of hours.  Some 
of these comments may have been discussed and resolved in shadow-test 
but I'm testing it as a first-look beta as requested.

General Observations
===================
The new additions are great and very useful and flexible.  The app 
appears stable, but I think there's some usability issues (see 
below).  

My Shadow background: Used for about 2 months, subscribed to the 
shadow-test list but only as an interested observer - I haven't 
downloaded any alphas but have kept an eye on the features and 
progress.  Hence I knew what tags were meant for but this is the 
first time I've used them.


Custom Filter
=============
* Really had to go through the -test archives to see what group 
letters meant and how to use a custom filter.
* Need an Edit Rule facility - even if it's not functionally 
important it just feels 'missing'
* The Group letters just don't get the AND/OR concept across - I 
think you almost need a outline/tree (max 2 level) within this screen 
where top-level branches are OR's and sub-brances are AND.  Or some 
other label to get this across, maybe something like:

+-----------------------------------+
|  \ Group A			    |
|	\- Links Broken is true	    |
|	\- Checked is false	    |
|  \ Group B			    |
|	\- Tag Association is 'John'|
+-----------------------------------+

or like this:
+-----------------------------------+
| IF  	 Links Broken is true	    |
| AND    Checked is false	    |
| ------------ OR -------------	    |
| IF	 Tag Association is 'John'  |
+-----------------------------------+

If none of the above, at least rules within the same OR group should 
be grouped together on-screen, if not automatically then available to 
do manually with re-ordering arrows?


* What does reversed mean? Does it make an '=' operator into a '!
=' ??  If so I think I'd rather see NOT= as an operator.
* When I clicked Describe on the Custom Filter selection screen I was 
expecting a textual description of the filter, e.g. "Applied if Links 
Broken and Checked is false, or if tag association is John".  I think 
this button should be called Edit.  How about the describe function 
as I put here on the Filter Detail screen just as a sanity check for 
beginners or for complex rules?
* Can the Filter selection screen respond to a double click to apply 
it?
* Are categories for filters worth considering?  With Filters (and 
Tags) being global I see myself using Tag categories to separate out 
tags that are useful for different types of list (e.g. I don't want a 
list of employees tags on my shopping list so I have a People tag 
category I use for work projects).  I just forsee having lots of 
custom filters on screen that are irrelevant to the current list 
(e.g. show John's tasks in my shopping list).  Choosing a category 
first would reduce this list.  Obviously many filters are applicable 
to any type of list but I can put these as Unfiled or show All if 
necessary.


Tags
====
* Generally, love 'em!  :-) especially selecting in-place via the pop-
up menu on the Tag column.
* Is there a point to having a link arrow on a tag? Following the 
link just gets to Tag Manager and doesn't select the chosen tag 
anyway?  If it does anything, would the Link Manager be more useful?
* As only one tag is displayable in the list column how can this be 
changed if you have >1 tag without deleting and re-adding in the 
required order in the tag manager?
* Can some indication be given in the tag column that there is more 
than one tag on the item? TagName* for example.
* Again, I'd have a double-click of a Tag in the Tag Manager to show 
its details. 


Saved Views
===========
* I think its confusing to have the custom view AND saved views, 
especially when the 'clobber' and 'update' rules come into play, 
although I suppose a custom view is specific to one list and saved 
views are global.  
* If I select a saved view, then switch to a standard view (e.g. 
Checklist) then modify the custom list view Shadow warns me my last 
view will be updated - which view?  There's no indication of which 
saved view I selected last AFAIK?
* How about showing the saved view name somewhere? 
* If the saved view applies a filter, should this be removed when 
going back to standard list, or revert to the previous filter before 
you applied the saved view?


Bugs
====
I get some problems with the scrollbar (which I put on the left, not 
because I'm left handed but because I prefer it on the other side to 
the Link arrow) - sometimes when switching views/applying filters etc 
it will temporarily be drawn on the right until I scroll or do 
something.  Just an annoying glitch - nothing that important.


Generally looking good.  Hope these comments are useful, or at least 
trigger a discussion! :-)


Stuart

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:56pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
>  Then by the time I get to Shadow 3, maybe the user guide will be
>  helpfull :)

Eh! Eh! Jeff said Shadow and 3 in the same sentence. (Drool, drool). :P~

[wipes chin, downloads beta...]

- Jeramy

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 3:11pm
Subject: RE: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

I'm just getting into the tag stuff, and I realized that it would be
much easier when mass producing tags if one small change were made:

When I'm in a certain category already, like People or Places or
Business, and I hit the New button at the bottom of the screen, it would
already have that category in place, instead of having to select it
every time.  I could change it if I needed too, or I could just leave
what's already in the box if that's right.

Sure would be quicker.

Jen

-------------
PocketGoddess
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 3:20pm
Subject: Desktop Comments

I have nothing but great things to say about the handheld version of 
SP, I recommend without hesitation to my friends Jeff but what about 
the desktop version of SP, My experience with it has been not so 
bright. I first registered it and performed the hot sync but my clie 
wouldn't hot sync, my guess was that the conduit did not read 
properly...tried I several times without success and finally I had to 
completely uninstall the desktop software out of my pc and then 
things went back to normal.....I'm envisioning a desktop version 
where I can create or update my current list, hotsync back to the 
clie and have it there, the interesting thing will be how tags and 
custom views are supported on the desktop version. I was going to 
write this when it actually happened @two weeks ago but was not able 
to and to be quite honest I was having to much fun with handheld 
version of SP to concern myself with the desktop for the moment but 
wanted to get your insights on this topic, thanks Jeff

Also wanted to know if you've ever thought of developing your own 
datebook to compete against the other two

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:02pm
Subject: 2.2.10 BETA: Can't override saved view using Custom button

First, the tags are awesome!  I have set up a "schedule view" with 
tags that record hourly estimates for various tasks.  Works great!

Second, do I post beta feedback here?  or should I be on some kind of 
beta list?

Third, here is a minor bug report (at least I am assuming its a bug):

I have a list which is displayed using a saved view.  When I choose 
list prefs and push the "custom" button I get a warning message that 
if I change the settings here I will loose the link to the saved 
view.  When I click OK and change the setting it is not recorded (I 
am back with the saved view).  I would expect the change to be saved 
and the List type to change to "Custom."

This is not an urgent item for me.  Just providing feedback as 
requested.

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:34pm
Subject: Desktop idea, one more try

Yesterday I posted a desktop idea and there were no responses.  
Either there is no interest in the idea or I did a very poor job of 
explaining myself.

I'd like to try just one more time because it was such a good concept 
in ECCO (the best rated PIM of its day).

On the desktop, instead of showing the details of just one item you 
could show the details of ALL items in columns. 

i.e. one column for priority, one column for checkbox, one column for 
target date...

(Notes would have to be handled differently, maybe with/under the 
item itself.)

This would really open up you whole outline view and make for very 
easy editing.

It would be particularly nice if there was a column for each tag.  
Then you could select a tag just by clicking in it's column.

I realize this would be a major programming ordeal, but it was a very 
powerful concept in ECCO and I just wanted to get the idea out there.

Gerry

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

Yes.  I have tried it and it works.  The only thing you don't get is any 
kind of automatic totalling of weights...

>Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight
>tags and assign them, then sort or filter.



> > >
> > > Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:
> > >
> > > 1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your
>proposal to
> > > just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I
>suppose you could
> > > add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but
>that's not very
> > > important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then
>I have
> > > just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required
>as a tag
> > > and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since
>my estimates
> > > can easily be totalled by hand.
> >
> >       To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250
>(say), and
> > then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> > column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or
>two :P
> >
>


----------
George Wyner:  { <http://smgnet.bu.edu/fac/profile.cfm?key=WynerGeorge>web 
| <mailto:gwyner@b...>gwyner@b... | 
<mailto:6177336517@m...>617 733-6517 | 
<aim:goim?screenname=geowyn&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?>AOL!IM:geowyn | 
<http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=geowyner&.src=pg>Y!IM:geowyner 
| <http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=66937211>ICQ:66937211 | MSN!IM:gwyner }

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:

> Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight 
> tags and assign them, then sort or filter.

	Tags are symbolic; you cannot judge for "tag < 5", since a
"tag" is a symbol, not a value. You could do "item doe snot include tag
"weight-0 and tag does not include weight-1 and tag does not include
weight-2", but it'd be way easier to use "weight > 3" in a filter.

	Tags are way cool, but they're not for everything ;)

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Michael Rudnick wrote:

> - I really like the ability to create a view with a filter associated
>   with it. This is a major usability feature.

	If you come up with any cool ideas, submit to shadow-tips for
others to learn from.

> - If I create view "V1" with filter "F1" and view "V2" without
>   checking the filter box then when I go from V2 to V2, the filter
>   stays on. I see how to turn it off by checking the box and choosing
>   "All" but I wonder if that will be confusing to some. I recommend
>   that if the box isn't checked, then the filter is removed.
>   Alternatively there could be another checkbox to say "Keep existing
>   filter" or something like that.

	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should it remove
the filter?

	What do folks think?

> - I want a faster way to setup tags on a task. If the tag column is
>   showing it's 4 clicks to assign a tag. Could we do it in two (click
>   on column and all the tags show up, then click on the tag)?

	I'll be adding something like this soon, for the final release.

> - As a lefty, I find changing views clumsy. Also, I wonder if the list
>   will get so long it will be unwieldy. Could we get a popup list that
>   just shows views? Could we have a preference setting that shows or
>   hides the standard views within this list(Checklist, Note, Tasklist,
>   etc.)?

	I'm thinking hiding the list would lead to confusion. You can get
the list in the [V] menu, but also in the List Prefs window.

	I will likely add an "Apply" button to the View Manager, too, so
you can use it to assign the views. What do you think?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 smasters@a... wrote:

> But will the parent sum up its children's "priorities"? This was going to
> be the nice thing about weighting. Would this take more than a day or two?
> Even nicer if this number is combined with % complete, i.e., if the weight
> of a child is 4 and it's 25% complete, then the parent would use "3 out of
> 4 remaining" to determine overall % complete. Truly wonderful.

	The whole idea of weights was to adjust how much weight a child
was to the parents completion percentage :)

	But yeah, the parent would display the sum of the weights, just
like it shows the average of its children completion (if you had the
weighting field turned on).

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, stugib_2000 wrote:

> Some initial thoughts after using 2.2.10 for a couple of hours.  Some 
> of these comments may have been discussed and resolved in shadow-test 
> but I'm testing it as a first-look beta as requested.

	Yep; Some of this is necessarily hard. I just want to see if
peopel think the hard parts are where I think they are, or if its all hard
and I need to fix it.

> Custom Filter
> =============
> * Really had to go through the -test archives to see what group 
> letters meant and how to use a custom filter.

        Yep; I don'tthink theres a way to make "OR" groups easy enogh to
understand right off the top. Boolean logic is neessarily complex, so I've
kept it dumbed down and easy to do.. but still a complex topic. (ie:
Newbies won't go near enough to custom filters to encounter AND and OR in
the first place :P)

> * Need an Edit Rule facility - even if it's not functionally 
> important it just feels 'missing'

	I'll likely add it. Not sure if day 1, but sometime.

> * The Group letters just don't get the AND/OR concept across - I 
> think you almost need a outline/tree (max 2 level) within this screen 
> where top-level branches are OR's and sub-brances are AND.  Or some 
> other label to get this across, maybe something like:
> 
> +-----------------------------------+
> |  \ Group A			    |
> |	\- Links Broken is true	    |
> |	\- Checked is false	    |
> |  \ Group B			    |
> |	\- Tag Association is 'John'|
> +-----------------------------------+
> 
> or like this:
> +-----------------------------------+
> | IF  	 Links Broken is true	    |
> | AND    Checked is false	    |
> | ------------ OR -------------	    |
> | IF	 Tag Association is 'John'  |
> +-----------------------------------+

	Not enough screen realestate to do this really well; I thought
about it, and played with it (ideally, I'd like a flow chart engine where
you drag stuff around, but thats way out of scope). Doing anything like IF
and AND makes it much more confusing, since you then need to use position
to define context. Your first above can do it, but its still confusing
(ie: As confusing as it is now.. the user woudl have to look it up to have
any idea whats going on). I coudln't think of a way of presenting it
efficiently and well, where the user didn't need to look it up. I'm
reaosnably sure now that AND and OR are just necessarily tough, unless I
add another 20k to the app with a big huge filter editor :P

> If none of the above, at least rules within the same OR group should
> be grouped together on-screen, if not automatically then available to
> do manually with re-ordering arrows?

	I'm hoping to auto-order by group, yeah.

> * What does reversed mean? Does it make an '=' operator into a '!
> =' ??  If so I think I'd rather see NOT= as an operator.

	It is logical NOT, yeah. Mathies will want to see "NOT", but I'm
torn.. ie: To use "<>" or "!=". In the end I chose !=, even though
business users prefer "<>". But business users prefer "Reversed" over NOT,
I think. Hard to say :/ I may need to include better (i) help.

> * When I clicked Describe on the Custom Filter selection screen I was 
> expecting a textual description of the filter, e.g. "Applied if Links 
> Broken and Checked is false, or if tag association is John".  I think 
> this button should be called Edit.  How about the describe function 
> as I put here on the Filter Detail screen just as a sanity check for 
> beginners or for complex rules?

	Describe is there for the built-ins. For customs, its the same as
the Details/Properties graphical button on the top of the screen. I've
debated removing the button, but some versions of Palm OS go nuts when you
do that, so I try and avoid it. I'm tempted to change the label to "Edit"
when in custom filters, and "Describe" when in built-ins.

> * Can the Filter selection screen respond to a double click to apply 
> it?

	Double-tap is not really reliable on Palm OS (ie: Its terrible on
older versions; on recent Palm OS its much more usable, but even then, it
varies by handheld vendor). So I prefer to avoid double-taps and such..
causes a lot of support problems :/

> * Are categories for filters worth considering?  With Filters (and 
> Tags) being global I see myself using Tag categories to separate out 
> tags that are useful for different types of list (e.g. I don't want a 
> list of employees tags on my shopping list so I have a People tag 
> category I use for work projects).  I just forsee having lots of 
> custom filters on screen that are irrelevant to the current list 
> (e.g. show John's tasks in my shopping list).  Choosing a category 
> first would reduc