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5901

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:35am
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
Well thought out...it makes sense


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth 
posting
> to the group).
> 
> 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> 
> 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> 
> 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> 
> I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is starting 
to
> get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test 
group -
> here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> 
> [C]Clipboard
> <unchanged>
> 
> [M]Managers
> Filter Manager
> Tag Manager
> View Manager
> Hilight Manager
> Tools Menu Manager
> 
> [V] Views
> <default views>
> <custom views>
> Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save space
> 
> [T] Tools
> Zoom level
> Zoom selected
> Expand all
> Collapse all
> Save now
> Recent files
5902

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Well thought out...it makes sense

	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The way
it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff together,
keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may wish
to do or invoke.

	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?

		jeff

> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth 
> posting
> > to the group).
> > 
> > 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> > 
> > 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> > 
> > 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > 
> > I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is starting 
> to
> > get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test 
> group -
> > here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> > 
> > [C]Clipboard
> > <unchanged>
> > 
> > [M]Managers
> > Filter Manager
> > Tag Manager
> > View Manager
> > Hilight Manager
> > Tools Menu Manager
> > 
> > [V] Views
> > <default views>
> > <custom views>
> > Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save space
> > 
> > [T] Tools
> > Zoom level
> > Zoom selected
> > Expand all
> > Collapse all
> > Save now
> > Recent files
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5903

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:08am
Subject: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

 
what I picture is a Send to... command which applies to the currently 
selected item.  The user is presented with a pop up list of (recent 
or all) files and selects a destination.  The item is added to the 
bottom of that file.

Still debating myself whether this is a good idea, but I notice I do 
a lot of...

Cut/Copy to clipboard
Navigate to recent file
Paste

In some cases I do this lots and it would be nice to streamline the 
operation.  Why is this (for me)?  I have lots of different outlines, 
but often find myself capturing new items in a single "inbox" -- when 
I process the inbox it is mostly about moving these items into the 
outlines where they actually belong...

FWIW...

George Wyner
5904

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:12am
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
Jeff, I don't know but is it a whole mission to enable something like 
that, also keep in mind that not every user is constanly viewing the 
shadow discussion messages, people in this groups are average to 
powerusers and their goal like with any app is to minimize taps in 
order to get what you want, so the gentleman has a point, I'd like to 
see how other people feel about it...but his setup may possibly 
minimize taps....on another note have you already tried PUN the new 
version, the one that takes advantage of the "goto" the developer 
says its suppose to work now but I have not been able to get it to 
jump to correct record in SP or DBK5.


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
> 
> > Well thought out...it makes sense
> 
> 	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The 
way
> it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff 
together,
> keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you 
may wish
> to do or invoke.
> 
> 	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth 
> > posting
> > > to the group).
> > > 
> > > 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> > > 
> > > 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> > > 
> > > 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> > > 
> > > 		jeff
> > > 
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > 
> > > I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is 
starting 
> > to
> > > get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test 
> > group -
> > > here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> > > 
> > > [C]Clipboard
> > > <unchanged>
> > > 
> > > [M]Managers
> > > Filter Manager
> > > Tag Manager
> > > View Manager
> > > Hilight Manager
> > > Tools Menu Manager
> > > 
> > > [V] Views
> > > <default views>
> > > <custom views>
> > > Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save 
space
> > > 
> > > [T] Tools
> > > Zoom level
> > > Zoom selected
> > > Expand all
> > > Collapse all
> > > Save now
> > > Recent files
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@e...
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5905

From: Anthony Schellenberg  <aschell2000@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
This makes pretty good sense.  I think I'd like it.


>On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
>
> > Well thought out...it makes sense
>
>	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The way
>it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff together,
>keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may wish
>to do or invoke.
>
>	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?
>
>		jeff
>
> >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
5906

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:17am
Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

 
I agree 100% with this thread, I'm always cutting/pasting as child, 
it would be cool to have to feature enabled, ie, "send to" and it 
would give you the same choices but under a parent, paste as child 
etc.etc... this would minimize # taps and help organize lists' 
quicker.... Great idea George


-- In shadow-discuss@y..., "geowyner" <gwyner@b...> wrote:
> what I picture is a Send to... command which applies to the 
currently 
> selected item.  The user is presented with a pop up list of (recent 
> or all) files and selects a destination.  The item is added to the 
> bottom of that file.
> 
> Still debating myself whether this is a good idea, but I notice I 
do 
> a lot of...
> 
> Cut/Copy to clipboard
> Navigate to recent file
> Paste
> 
> In some cases I do this lots and it would be nice to streamline the 
> operation.  Why is this (for me)?  I have lots of different 
outlines, 
> but often find myself capturing new items in a single "inbox" -- 
when 
> I process the inbox it is mostly about moving these items into the 
> outlines where they actually belong...
> 
> FWIW...
> 
> George Wyner
5907

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:04am
Subject: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
OK.  I know that Jeff is not claiming that Shadow is a full-blown PM 
(at least not yet :) and that's fine by me.  Mostly I am interested 
in tracking what I need to do and grouping things together in ways 
that help me figure out what needs to happen next on various 
projects.  Shadow is working great for that.  

Here's the thing for me though:  sometimes I really need to be more 
systematic about scheduling my time.  If I have 2 or 3 projects (in 
the GTD sense) that aer each longer than say 10 hours and have a 
deadline within the next two weeks, I really need to get realistic 
about how many hours I need to spend on each of these projects each 
day to get them done.  As I carve off smaller subtasks and start to 
make progress on them, my understanding of the time commitment 
involved starts to evolve.  As time goes by and interruptions happen, 
whatever plan I have drawn up needs to evolve as well, both to 
capture the better estimates and the realities of my schedule.

So since this sounds a lot like project management, maybe the answer 
is to bite the bullet and start using Microsoft Project, but I am not 
convinced that I need all that horsepower and I don't think it will 
integrate that well into my current system.

So here then, is my fantasy about how Shadow Plan might work as a 
lightweight and tightly integrated project manager.  What I'd like to 
know is whether this really fits with Shadow and what I'd even more 
like to know is how to get at least some of this functionality in the 
meantime (I'll share my own thoughts about that down below)...

Tracking task duration.  I know that project managers track other 
resources besides time and that even time needs to be divided up into 
the work time of multiple individuals.  I figure when I need to track 
all that stuff its time to fire up MS Project or whatever.  For me, 
all I need is a single field associated with each task:  duration.  
That, combined with the existing Start, End, and Target fields would 
give me all I need.

Parent duration as total of child durations.  As I break things into 
subtasks and add estimates to those subtasks, I want these finer 
grained estimates to be totalled and used in place of the original 
estimate in the parent.  Here, I suppose, things can get 
complicated.  There are several options to choose from:  continue to 
use parent total, replace parent total entirely, let parent duration 
be a kind of residual duration to be added to all the subtasks (a way 
to pad the total).  No doubt there are other possibilities.  And I 
suppose you could set these options in the individual parents to make 
matters even more intricate.  At a minimum I would be happy with a 
global setting.

With this functionality added, Shadow would really help me in my 
project estimates.  Now for the real fantasy:  integration with the 
datebook:

To really get these tasks done, I ought to actually schedule them.  
However, a given task might require several blocks of time in my 
datebook to carry out.  What I would like to do is to be able to 
schedule these blocks of time and link them to a task in Shadow.  
Then I want to run a report where the scheduled time is treated as 
the "actual" and I can see it against the estimate I have.  Again, 
there are some issues:  the added complexity of one-to-many linking.  
What happens if I create a datebook appointment to do some work on 
the task and don't make progress?  All sorts of other things.

But what intrigues me is that instead of having a project schedule in 
a separate piece of software, I would have integrated the elements of 
project scheduling most relevant to personal time management right 
into the tools I am already using.

End of fantasy...

Now as I think about what I can really do today:

Estimates.  I suppose what I will do is put the estimates into the 
item descriptions -- for most of my projects I can add them up by 
hand or I can export the Shadow outline and import it into some other 
software to do that for me, I suppose (although probably not even 
worth it for the number of estimates I will make).  This method will 
take a bit more discipline than the automated approach (i.e. I have 
to put a bit more work in) and will tend to discourage detailed 
estimates.

Scheduling.  Apparently Datebk5 allows you to filter a view by some 
key phrase and then get a total duration.  That ought to allow me to 
keep track of whether I have scheduled enough time.  (Once I upgrade 
and figure out how it works...)  Again, my sense is that this will 
take a fair bit of discipline and that having tighter integration 
would lead to a qualitative difference in how effectively such 
scheduling would be.

So let me know what you all think... I have to confess that I am very 
lax about this kind of scheduling so that maybe the issue for me is 
discipline more than software.  Anyway, I feel better for having 
gotten all that down on "paper."

Shadow Plan is cool.  Best to all...

George
5908

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:07am
Subject: Re: Archive

 
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:24:38 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>I would like to do such a thing.. really, I feel Archive
>isn't
>very useful right now. I have considered an origin-stamp sort of
>deal in
>its note field, though.

That would work too, maybe even better...I was thinking that 
including the file as a TLI would be easier. Oh well, just some 
thoughts for when you're bored...definitly not a high priority, just 
for when you're working in that area of the code.
-- 
220, 221 ... whatever it takes
learned@t... on 06/18/2002
5909

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:52:45 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The
>way
>it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff
>together,
>keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may
>wish
>to do or invoke.
>
>Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?

This is well thought out, but I also like the idea of adding a [T] 
Tag popup that was discussed in another thread...that had a lot of 
power too.
-- 
220, 221 ... whatever it takes
learned@t... on 06/18/2002
5910

From: Jacob Share  <jacob@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:48am
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
I don't think the current popups are confusing, but I wonder where the Tag manager could be added unless you used [T] for it. That said, I do think I would prefer this newer design. You could poll us...

What would the 'View Manager' be? The same thing as [V]? 

What would the 'Tools Menu Manager' be? If this makes the [T] popup customizable, yahoo ;)

Maybe I don't know because I'm not following the alphas :)

Jacob




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5911

From: hanlk  <hanlk@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:47am
Subject: To Do link

 
I really like the way Shadow can link its items to the To Do 
database. However, it only places the item name into the To Do task 
description field. I know there is an option to put the origin in the 
note field but that isn't shown in the To-Do listing. As I have a lot 
of projects with similiar task descriptions, it would be great if 
Shadow could append the parent text into the To Do field. For e.g.

Task 1
   -Task 1.1
       -Task 1.2

would read in the To Do list as:

"Task 1 - Task 1.1 - Task 1.2"
5912

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 0:17pm
Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:

> what I picture is a Send to... command which applies to the currently 
> selected item.  The user is presented with a pop up list of (recent 
> or all) files and selects a destination.  The item is added to the 
> bottom of that file.
> 
> Still debating myself whether this is a good idea, but I notice I do 
> a lot of...
> 
> Cut/Copy to clipboard
> Navigate to recent file
> Paste
> 
> In some cases I do this lots and it would be nice to streamline the 
> operation.  Why is this (for me)?  I have lots of different outlines, 
> but often find myself capturing new items in a single "inbox" -- when 
> I process the inbox it is mostly about moving these items into the 
> outlines where they actually belong...

	I'm actually planning on a "Send to ..." clipboard operation; clip
things to the clipboard, then send them to another file using the [C]
popmenu, or a Edit menu item.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5913

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 0:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Jeff, I don't know but is it a whole mission to enable something like 
> that, also keep in mind that not every user is constanly viewing the 
> shadow discussion messages, people in this groups are average to 
> powerusers and their goal like with any app is to minimize taps in 
> order to get what you want, so the gentleman has a point, I'd like to 
> see how other people feel about it...but his setup may possibly 

	Thats why I'm posting in shadow-discuss :) To gather input.
Changing the UI is a reasonably serious affair (internally, to to the
users), so I try and avoid doing so. Really, I'd like to revamp a lot of
the UI, but it will take much time, and would require everyone to play
with things to figure it out, so its somethign I'm leaving for later. But
if this set of changes are good and everyone wants them, they're doable,
since they're just in the top right popmenus, which I'm betting are less
used by average joe.

> minimize taps....on another note have you already tried PUN the new 
> version, the one that takes advantage of the "goto" the developer 
> says its suppose to work now but I have not been able to get it to 
> jump to correct record in SP or DBK5.

	Never used PUN, and don't intend to ;) (ie: Theres a lot of things
out there, and I cannot test against them all). Shadow and DateBk's "goto"
handlers work (they've been working for years), so the problem is likely
his ;)

	I can perhaps do some experimenting to help him debug, if need
be. He can contact me.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5914

From: Samuel J. Radcliffe  <samr@g...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:31pm
Subject: RE: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
I think the choices ought to be grouped by function and operand (view, item,
list):

+[C] Clipboard
	- <unchanged>

+[O] View Options
	+ Filter Manager
	+ Highlight Manager
	+ Zooms
		- Zoom to level
		- Zoom inside selection
	+ Expand
		-Expand all
		-Collapse all

+[V] View Selector
	+ Standard Views
		- Checklist
		- Note
		- etc
	+ Custom Views
		- View Manager
		- Custom #1
		- Custom #2
		- etc

+[I] Item Operations
	+ Add Tag
		- Category
			- tags
		- Last added tag
		- Second to last
		- Third to last
	+ Remove Tag
		- Tag #1
		- Tag #2
		- etc
	+ Tag Manager
	+ Link Manager
	+ Toggle Item Highlight (bold)
	+ Item Type
		- List's Type
		- Checklist
		- etc

+[L] List Operations
	+ Revert to Last
	+ Save now
	+ Recent files
	+ Import
	+ Export
	+ <merge>
	+ <save as>


I also suggest removing tag ops from Link Manager and putting them into Tag
Manager. Jeff, I know these suggestions represent a lot of work, and I'm not
pushing hard for this re-org, but these changes would tidy things up, IMO.

...Sam



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 9:53 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Revamp popmenus?
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
>
> > Well thought out...it makes sense
>
> 	How about relative to how things are now; is this better? The way
> it is now is "functionally" laid out.. keep the filter stuff together,
> keep the view stuff together. Below is laid out more by what you may wish
> to do or invoke.
>
> 	Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?
>
> 		jeff
>
> >
> >
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > 	Someone sent this to me (directly, but I thought it worth
> > posting
> > > to the group).
> > >
> > > 	This sounds interesting. What do you guys think?
> > >
> > > 	Are the existing popmenus confusing?
> > >
> > > 	Not sure where I'd fit in "last filter".
> > >
> > > 		jeff
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >
> > > I think the organic way that Filters and Views grew up is starting
> > to
> > > get confusing and only makes immediate sense to the shadow-test
> > group -
> > > here are my thoughts on reorganizing the menus ...
> > >
> > > [C]Clipboard
> > > <unchanged>
> > >
> > > [M]Managers
> > > Filter Manager
> > > Tag Manager
> > > View Manager
> > > Hilight Manager
> > > Tools Menu Manager
> > >
> > > [V] Views
> > > <default views>
> > > <custom views>
> > > Note: also remove the "Chg" in front of each view name to save space
> > >
> > > [T] Tools
> > > Zoom level
> > > Zoom selected
> > > Expand all
> > > Collapse all
> > > Save now
> > > Recent files
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
5915

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:30pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:

> Here's the thing for me though:  sometimes I really need to be more
> systematic about scheduling my time.  If I have 2 or 3 projects (in
> the GTD sense) that aer each longer than say 10 hours and have a
> deadline within the next two weeks, I really need to get realistic
> about how many hours I need to spend on each of these projects each
> day to get them done.  As I carve off smaller subtasks and start to
> make progress on them, my understanding of the time commitment
> involved starts to evolve.  As time goes by and interruptions happen,
> whatever plan I have drawn up needs to evolve as well, both to capture
> the better estimates and the realities of my schedule.
> 
> So since this sounds a lot like project management, maybe the answer 
> is to bite the bullet and start using Microsoft Project, but I am not 
> convinced that I need all that horsepower and I don't think it will 
> integrate that well into my current system.

	I am intending on adding "weighting" to items; I've not defined it
yet, but the idea is to adjust how much child items factor into their
parents rolled up completion. ie: Right now, each item weighs in at
1.. one item takes 1 unit, so all items have the same weight. But if you
have 3 children, and make one weight 2, and the others way 1, then its now
out of a total of 4 points, and the one item accounts for 50%.

	Sounds like what you want; the question is a UI one. I am thinking
of letting one specify a weight of between 1-200 or the like, or iodeally,
1-20, and let you tell yourself what the numbers mean (like say hours, or
minutes, or two hours per unit, but that'd be confusing). Once I figure
out how I wish to UI it, I can proceed to add it. A reasonably simple code
change to support it, but a complex question of what is needed in the UI.

> So here then, is my fantasy about how Shadow Plan might work as a
> lightweight and tightly integrated project manager.  What I'd like to
> know is whether this really fits with Shadow and what I'd even more
> like to know is how to get at least some of this functionality in the
> meantime (I'll share my own thoughts about that down below)...
> 
> Tracking task duration.  I know that project managers track other 
> resources besides time and that even time needs to be divided up into 
> the work time of multiple individuals.  I figure when I need to track 
> all that stuff its time to fire up MS Project or whatever.  For me, 
> all I need is a single field associated with each task:  duration.  
> That, combined with the existing Start, End, and Target fields would 
> give me all I need.

	I hope to add a "misc field" that you can enter anything you want
into, but that is a ways off. Perhaps you can define tags for "units of
time", and then assign those. (Tags are coming very soon; they let you
create "categories", and assign any number of them to an item. The tags
can be any arbitrary string/symbolic-name.. so you can create tags called
"John", "Home", "Important", or "10 hours". You coudl tag an item with
"Home" and "10 hours", and make filters to select only home projects to
see what you need ot do and how long. But you can't do summation or the
liek with tags.. they're symbolic, and not "numbers".

> Parent duration as total of child durations.  As I break things into 
> subtasks and add estimates to those subtasks, I want these finer 
> grained estimates to be totalled and used in place of the original 
> estimate in the parent.  Here, I suppose, things can get 
> complicated.  There are several options to choose from:  continue to 
> use parent total, replace parent total entirely, let parent duration 
> be a kind of residual duration to be added to all the subtasks (a way 
> to pad the total).  No doubt there are other possibilities.  And I 
> suppose you could set these options in the individual parents to make 
> matters even more intricate.  At a minimum I would be happy with a 
> global setting.

	Parents will be the sum of their childrens completion. It keeps
things simple, intuitive, and useful. Unless theres a good case otherwise.

> With this functionality added, Shadow would really help me in my
> project estimates.  Now for the real fantasy:  integration with the
> datebook:
> 
> To really get these tasks done, I ought to actually schedule them.  
> However, a given task might require several blocks of time in my 
> datebook to carry out.  What I would like to do is to be able to 
> schedule these blocks of time and link them to a task in Shadow.  

	You can already do this :) (see Link Manager)

> Then I want to run a report where the scheduled time is treated as 
> the "actual" and I can see it against the estimate I have.  Again, 
> there are some issues:  the added complexity of one-to-many linking.  
> What happens if I create a datebook appointment to do some work on 
> the task and don't make progress?  All sorts of other things.

	Reporting is immensely complicated; the datebook applications
cannot log time applied or th elike.. they just aer appointments, not
record keepers. You'd need another system to log what work you've actually
done. So datebook solutions are out.

	Its not a one to many; if one task has 5 time slots to complete
it, you create children underneath it, linking each to the datebook.

> Estimates.  I suppose what I will do is put the estimates into the 
> item descriptions -- for most of my projects I can add them up by 
> hand or I can export the Shadow outline and import it into some other 
> software to do that for me, I suppose (although probably not even 
> worth it for the number of estimates I will make).  This method will 
> take a bit more discipline than the automated approach (i.e. I have 
> to put a bit more work in) and will tend to discourage detailed 
> estimates.

	Tags may help; not exactly what you want, but could be pretty
helpful. (You can have a tag column to display the "prime tag" onscreen)

> Scheduling.  Apparently Datebk5 allows you to filter a view by some
> key phrase and then get a total duration.  That ought to allow me to
> keep track of whether I have scheduled enough time.  (Once I upgrade
> and figure out how it works...)  Again, my sense is that this will
> take a fair bit of discipline and that having tighter integration
> would lead to a qualitative difference in how effectively such
> scheduling would be.
> 
> So let me know what you all think... I have to confess that I am very 
> lax about this kind of scheduling so that maybe the issue for me is 
> discipline more than software.  Anyway, I feel better for having 
> gotten all that down on "paper."

	Disciplin is always the hardest piece of any system; anyone can
create a system they stick with for 2 weeks, but sticking with it for 6mo
is damned near impossible ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5916

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Jacob Share wrote:

> I don't think the current popups are confusing, but I wonder where the
> Tag manager could be added unless you used [T] for it. That said, I do
> think I would prefer this newer design. You could poll us...

	[F] has the Tag Manager now, since Tags are essentially for
filtering.

> What would the 'View Manager' be? The same thing as [V]? 

	View Manager is in the upcoming release; you know custom views in
Shadow? View Manager lets you have any number of saved views, and assign
them to individual items, and attach filters (custom or built in) to the
views.

> What would the 'Tools Menu Manager' be? If this makes the [T] popup
> customizable, yahoo ;)

	Tools is the renamed Help menu, with the managers under
it. (ie: Instead of just being Prefs and About, it is View Manager, Tag
Manager, Filter Manager, About, Register)

> Maybe I don't know because I'm not following the alphas :)

	Right. The alpha will be beta very soon, where you can see it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5917

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: Re: To Do link

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, hanlk wrote:

> I really like the way Shadow can link its items to the To Do 
> database. However, it only places the item name into the To Do task 
> description field. I know there is an option to put the origin in the 
> note field but that isn't shown in the To-Do listing. As I have a lot 
> of projects with similiar task descriptions, it would be great if 
> Shadow could append the parent text into the To Do field. For e.g.
> 
> Task 1
>    -Task 1.1
>        -Task 1.2
> 
> would read in the To Do list as:
> 
> "Task 1 - Task 1.1 - Task 1.2"

	Short answer: Can't.

	Medium answer: Thats why the note origin appending is there ;)

	Long answer: The todo has a finite title length, and a finite
length of usefullness. If your Shadow item is 5 levels deep, we need to
include the filename (20 characters or so), plus the 5 parents (eachbeing
up to 250 characters), and your todo is suddenly both overfilled (todo has
limits), and fills your entire screen with info that isn't actually the
todo. Its distracting from the purpose.. which is the todo task at
hand. Then what happens if your item is 10 levels deep :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5918

From: grn_white  <michael.walter@r...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:33pm
Subject: Shadow link hack, other goodies, performance hit

 
Must say I am extremely happy that Ling developed the shadowlink hack. 
This is what I have been wanting to do but haven't had time to do by 
setting up megawiki.  I know I'm not supposed to talk about the alphas 
but everyone is going to love the new goodies coming soon.  Jeff I 
have noticed a fairly significant performance hit since I installed 
the latest alpha.  And I have not set up custom views or tags yet. 
Even running Afterburner at 257% (on Palm IIIxe) there is a noticeable 
time lag to load shadow, open lists etc.  I don't have alot of spare 
memory - @ 400K - does this affect matters/  All my shadow lists 
together only take up about 350K.
5919

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:13pm
Subject: Long Sync Times

 
Jeff, what do you consider large files? My largest is around 20000, and 
I'm now 20 minutes into a sync.

Ed
5920

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:58pm
Subject: More fantasizing

 
If fantasizing is allowed I have one for the desktop.

It would be like the old ECCO Pro. (which I still miss)

Could all fields (except notes) be in columns on the right of the 
items, including tags.  Then you could set them by clicking on the 
columns you want.

I realize this would be a major change but like said, just a fantasy!

Gerry
5921

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:04pm
Subject: Re: Feature suggestion: send item directly to another list...

 
Jeff,

That would be perfect!

George

At 08:17 AM 6/18/02 -0400, Jeff Mitchell wrote:


>       I'm actually planning on a "Send to ..." clipboard operation; clip
>things to the clipboard, then send them to another file using the [C]
>popmenu, or a Edit menu item.
>
>             jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


----------
George Wyner:  { <http://smgnet.bu.edu/fac/profile.cfm?key=WynerGeorge>web 
| <mailto:gwyner@b...>gwyner@b... | 
<mailto:6177336517@m...>617 733-6517 | 
<aim:goim?screenname=geowyn&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?>AOL!IM:geowyn | 
<http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=geowyner&.src=pg>Y!IM:geowyner 
| <http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=66937211>ICQ:66937211 | MSN!IM:gwyner }

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5922

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:12pm
Subject: Re: Shadow link hack, other goodies, performance hit

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, grn_white wrote:

> Must say I am extremely happy that Ling developed the shadowlink hack. 
> This is what I have been wanting to do but haven't had time to do by 
> setting up megawiki.  I know I'm not supposed to talk about the alphas 
> but everyone is going to love the new goodies coming soon.  Jeff I 
> have noticed a fairly significant performance hit since I installed 
> the latest alpha.  And I have not set up custom views or tags yet. 
> Even running Afterburner at 257% (on Palm IIIxe) there is a noticeable 
> time lag to load shadow, open lists etc.  I don't have alot of spare 
> memory - @ 400K - does this affect matters/  All my shadow lists 
> together only take up about 350K.

	Why not bring this to shadow-test where it belongs? I'll answer
privately, so as not to pollute -discuss with -test answerts.

	In short, there should be no performance hit.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5923

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:02pm
Subject: Re: Yet another screen resolution for Jeff to support... ;-)

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	4) Selling Shadow to schools would be big on my list ;)

Looks like AlphaSmart has partnered with Hands High and their Thought
Manager software:

http://www.handshigh.com/html/contest.html

 - Jeramy
5924

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:40pm
Subject: Long Sync Times

 
Jeff,

I just cancelled a sync after 2 hours. The longest file I have is 16k
according to the pdb backup on the desktop.

Ed
5925

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Long Sync Times

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Learned wrote:

> Jeff, what do you consider large files? My largest is around 20000, and 
> I'm now 20 minutes into a sync.

	Sounds iffy; Shadow sync varies by how many files you have, but 20
mins is out of what. You can sync a few dozen files in a couple
minutes. There is some rare bug in there that causes a loop. I'm planning
on spending July fixing up the conduit.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5926

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Yet another screen resolution for Jeff to support... ;-)

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, fiatspider72 wrote:

> > 	4) Selling Shadow to schools would be big on my list ;)
> 
> Looks like AlphaSmart has partnered with Hands High and their Thought
> Manager software:
> 
> http://www.handshigh.com/html/contest.html

	Their loss ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5927

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 6:41pm
Subject: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
I'm going to dash ahead of the alpha group here, I think. Shadow
2.2.10a seems pretty stable and reliable and very useful, though it does
have a couple of minor glitches still, and I've not written any
documentation for the many new features yet. I intend on writing some docs
and getting things ready for release in a few days or a week.

	But I wanted to widen up the testing and get some more user
experience. Is this too difficult to use (theres no docs, so we'll see how
many questions you ask). The questions you ask may help guide me to where
I need to focus the documentation on. Let me know if you see any glitches,
or have any wants or desires or improvements.. let me know what you think.

	As a rule; download this *BETA* (knowing it has bugs, though not
too many) ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO POST FEEDBACK! (good or bad. Good is
equally valid, so I know what you like!)

	Thje new features are not documented. There is no installer. This
is just the raw .prc file.. send it up to your handheld the way you know
how. If you don't know how, dont' touch a beta!

	The main new things here are:

	1) Customizable and savable filters
	2) Customizable and savable views (list can be a saved view, and
any item can be a saved view, even)
	3) Tags; you can tag an item with any number of "tags" (like
attributes), to represent place, people, state, whatever.

	Points to know:

	1) See the Link Manager -- you can add and delete tags there
	2) The Tag column (in Worksheet list type, or you can add it in a
custom view of your own) lets you add tags and change the primary tag with
minimal taps (and better to come)
	3) Custom filters can filter by tag!
	4) You can sort (group) by tag
	5) Views can have a filter associated to them, so when you change
views, the filter becomes activated

	Theres lots to play with. I know its a lot more powerful, and more
complicated, than previous changes. But let me know what you think:

	A) Is this stuff too complicated?
	B) How would you like it improved?
	C) Any performance problems?

	And most importantly..

	D) How do you like the new stuff? Views, tags, custom filters?

	Get it here.. and remember, you must post back feedback to here,
or to shadow-test, or to me.

	This is BETA. This is unfinished. We are adding features to make
it easier and faster to add tags, and move filters around so you can
manually sort them, and other little details.

	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2210a.zip

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5928

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:12pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Great news Jeff...if I may suggest the following, prior to Shadowlink 
Hack I guess there was Linker and MegaWiki and a few others but I'm 
guessing MW was the most used due to all its capabilities despite its 
huge learning curve(piki-for me) When you prepare the documentation 
if you can include a nice explanation of what a TAG is and how its 
used, perhaps a "Tag for dummies" kind of explanation would probably 
help a lot of user especially new ones to Shadow, so if you can 
explain tags as you would to a child then that would be great...What 
I would not like is that your explanations are similar to MW's since 
I don't feel like their manual is so clear especially for new user..I 
think that if you explain these more complicated topics at a very 
elementary level then it would rock...



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	I'm going to dash ahead of the alpha group here, I think. 
Shadow
> 2.2.10a seems pretty stable and reliable and very useful, though it 
does
> have a couple of minor glitches still, and I've not written any
> documentation for the many new features yet. I intend on writing 
some docs
> and getting things ready for release in a few days or a week.
> 
> 	But I wanted to widen up the testing and get some more user
> experience. Is this too difficult to use (theres no docs, so we'll 
see how
> many questions you ask). The questions you ask may help guide me to 
where
> I need to focus the documentation on. Let me know if you see any 
glitches,
> or have any wants or desires or improvements.. let me know what you 
think.
> 
> 	As a rule; download this *BETA* (knowing it has bugs, though 
not
> too many) ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO POST FEEDBACK! (good or bad. Good is
> equally valid, so I know what you like!)
> 
> 	Thje new features are not documented. There is no installer. 
This
> is just the raw .prc file.. send it up to your handheld the way you 
know
> how. If you don't know how, dont' touch a beta!
> 
> 	The main new things here are:
> 
> 	1) Customizable and savable filters
> 	2) Customizable and savable views (list can be a saved view, 
and
> any item can be a saved view, even)
> 	3) Tags; you can tag an item with any number of "tags" (like
> attributes), to represent place, people, state, whatever.
> 
> 	Points to know:
> 
> 	1) See the Link Manager -- you can add and delete tags there
> 	2) The Tag column (in Worksheet list type, or you can add it 
in a
> custom view of your own) lets you add tags and change the primary 
tag with
> minimal taps (and better to come)
> 	3) Custom filters can filter by tag!
> 	4) You can sort (group) by tag
> 	5) Views can have a filter associated to them, so when you 
change
> views, the filter becomes activated
> 
> 	Theres lots to play with. I know its a lot more powerful, and 
more
> complicated, than previous changes. But let me know what you think:
> 
> 	A) Is this stuff too complicated?
> 	B) How would you like it improved?
> 	C) Any performance problems?
> 
> 	And most importantly..
> 
> 	D) How do you like the new stuff? Views, tags, custom filters?
> 
> 	Get it here.. and remember, you must post back feedback to 
here,
> or to shadow-test, or to me.
> 
> 	This is BETA. This is unfinished. We are adding features to 
make
> it easier and faster to add tags, and move filters around so you can
> manually sort them, and other little details.
> 
> 	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2210a.zip
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5929

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:23pm
Subject: RE: Re: Revamp popmenus?

 
Would you prefer it as it is now, or as below?

I like the new layout, though it may take a bit of getting used to. It
makes more logical sense, though I bet I'll find myself tapping the
wrong things for a while!

Jen

-------------
PocketGoddess
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
5930

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Great news Jeff...if I may suggest the following, prior to Shadowlink 
> Hack I guess there was Linker and MegaWiki and a few others but I'm 
> guessing MW was the most used due to all its capabilities despite its 
> huge learning curve(piki-for me) When you prepare the documentation 
> if you can include a nice explanation of what a TAG is and how its 
> used, perhaps a "Tag for dummies" kind of explanation would probably 
> help a lot of user especially new ones to Shadow, so if you can 
> explain tags as you would to a child then that would be great...What 
> I would not like is that your explanations are similar to MW's since 
> I don't feel like their manual is so clear especially for new user..I 
> think that if you explain these more complicated topics at a very 
> elementary level then it would rock...

	I'm hoping to begin a "user guide" for Shadow 2.5 (2.2.10, with
changes and fixes, will become 2.5). Its a tonne of work, so for 2.5 I'll
liekly just include a "user guide" which is 3 or 4 little topics covered
in a reasonably easy way to understand. Then by the time I get to Shadow
3, maybe the user guide will be helpfull :)

	But I think the biggest thing missing for Shadow.. is easy docs.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5931

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:21pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
Wow!  Thanks for the detailed response!

Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:

1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your proposal to 
just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I suppose you could 
add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but that's not very 
important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then I have 
just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required as a tag 
and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since my estimates 
can easily be totalled by hand.

2.  Given all the above, the "misc" field is much less of a priority for me.

3.  I knew about the link between items and datebook entries, but was 
concerned about the one-to-many issue.  Your suggestion that I do the 
individual time slots as children makes total sense and solves a big 
problem for me.

So my current plan is:

Set up tags to track the hours required.  Link to the datebook using link 
manager.  If I use children to handle multiple time slots, as you suggest, 
then I can see how much time I have actually allotted in my calendar to 
handle everything.  The only issue remaining (as far as I can tell) is that 
the linked datebook entries start out life as "no time" and I would need to 
manually move them to the appropriate time on my calendar.  That seems like 
a small amount of editing given everything else that I would get from this.

So I will try installing the beta and give it a try!

Thanks!

George

At 09:30 AM 6/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:
>
> > Here's the thing for me though:  sometimes I really need to be more
> > systematic about scheduling my time.  If I have 2 or 3 projects (in
> > the GTD sense) that aer each longer than say 10 hours and have a
> > deadline within the next two weeks, I really need to get realistic
> > about how many hours I need to spend on each of these projects each
> > day to get them done.  As I carve off smaller subtasks and start to
> > make progress on them, my understanding of the time commitment
> > involved starts to evolve.  As time goes by and interruptions happen,
> > whatever plan I have drawn up needs to evolve as well, both to capture
> > the better estimates and the realities of my schedule.
> >
> > So since this sounds a lot like project management, maybe the answer
> > is to bite the bullet and start using Microsoft Project, but I am not
> > convinced that I need all that horsepower and I don't think it will
> > integrate that well into my current system.
>
>       I am intending on adding "weighting" to items; I've not defined it
>yet, but the idea is to adjust how much child items factor into their
>parents rolled up completion. ie: Right now, each item weighs in at
>1.. one item takes 1 unit, so all items have the same weight. But if you
>have 3 children, and make one weight 2, and the others way 1, then its now
>out of a total of 4 points, and the one item accounts for 50%.
>
>       Sounds like what you want; the question is a UI one. I am thinking
>of letting one specify a weight of between 1-200 or the like, or iodeally,
>1-20, and let you tell yourself what the numbers mean (like say hours, or
>minutes, or two hours per unit, but that'd be confusing). Once I figure
>out how I wish to UI it, I can proceed to add it. A reasonably simple code
>change to support it, but a complex question of what is needed in the UI.
>
> > So here then, is my fantasy about how Shadow Plan might work as a
> > lightweight and tightly integrated project manager.  What I'd like to
> > know is whether this really fits with Shadow and what I'd even more
> > like to know is how to get at least some of this functionality in the
> > meantime (I'll share my own thoughts about that down below)...
> >
> > Tracking task duration.  I know that project managers track other
> > resources besides time and that even time needs to be divided up into
> > the work time of multiple individuals.  I figure when I need to track
> > all that stuff its time to fire up MS Project or whatever.  For me,
> > all I need is a single field associated with each task:  duration.
> > That, combined with the existing Start, End, and Target fields would
> > give me all I need.
>
>       I hope to add a "misc field" that you can enter anything you want
>into, but that is a ways off. Perhaps you can define tags for "units of
>time", and then assign those. (Tags are coming very soon; they let you
>create "categories", and assign any number of them to an item. The tags
>can be any arbitrary string/symbolic-name.. so you can create tags called
>"John", "Home", "Important", or "10 hours". You coudl tag an item with
>"Home" and "10 hours", and make filters to select only home projects to
>see what you need ot do and how long. But you can't do summation or the
>liek with tags.. they're symbolic, and not "numbers".
>
> > Parent duration as total of child durations.  As I break things into
> > subtasks and add estimates to those subtasks, I want these finer
> > grained estimates to be totalled and used in place of the original
> > estimate in the parent.  Here, I suppose, things can get
> > complicated.  There are several options to choose from:  continue to
> > use parent total, replace parent total entirely, let parent duration
> > be a kind of residual duration to be added to all the subtasks (a way
> > to pad the total).  No doubt there are other possibilities.  And I
> > suppose you could set these options in the individual parents to make
> > matters even more intricate.  At a minimum I would be happy with a
> > global setting.
>
>       Parents will be the sum of their childrens completion. It keeps
>things simple, intuitive, and useful. Unless theres a good case otherwise.
>
> > With this functionality added, Shadow would really help me in my
> > project estimates.  Now for the real fantasy:  integration with the
> > datebook:
> >
> > To really get these tasks done, I ought to actually schedule them.
> > However, a given task might require several blocks of time in my
> > datebook to carry out.  What I would like to do is to be able to
> > schedule these blocks of time and link them to a task in Shadow.
>
>       You can already do this :) (see Link Manager)
>
> > Then I want to run a report where the scheduled time is treated as
> > the "actual" and I can see it against the estimate I have.  Again,
> > there are some issues:  the added complexity of one-to-many linking.
> > What happens if I create a datebook appointment to do some work on
> > the task and don't make progress?  All sorts of other things.
>
>       Reporting is immensely complicated; the datebook applications
>cannot log time applied or th elike.. they just aer appointments, not
>record keepers. You'd need another system to log what work you've actually
>done. So datebook solutions are out.
>
>       Its not a one to many; if one task has 5 time slots to complete
>it, you create children underneath it, linking each to the datebook.
>
> > Estimates.  I suppose what I will do is put the estimates into the
> > item descriptions -- for most of my projects I can add them up by
> > hand or I can export the Shadow outline and import it into some other
> > software to do that for me, I suppose (although probably not even
> > worth it for the number of estimates I will make).  This method will
> > take a bit more discipline than the automated approach (i.e. I have
> > to put a bit more work in) and will tend to discourage detailed
> > estimates.
>
>       Tags may help; not exactly what you want, but could be pretty
>helpful. (You can have a tag column to display the "prime tag" onscreen)
>
> > Scheduling.  Apparently Datebk5 allows you to filter a view by some
> > key phrase and then get a total duration.  That ought to allow me to
> > keep track of whether I have scheduled enough time.  (Once I upgrade
> > and figure out how it works...)  Again, my sense is that this will
> > take a fair bit of discipline and that having tighter integration
> > would lead to a qualitative difference in how effectively such
> > scheduling would be.
> >
> > So let me know what you all think... I have to confess that I am very
> > lax about this kind of scheduling so that maybe the issue for me is
> > discipline more than software.  Anyway, I feel better for having
> > gotten all that down on "paper."
>
>       Disciplin is always the hardest piece of any system; anyone can
>create a system they stick with for 2 weeks, but sticking with it for 6mo
>is damned near impossible ;)
>
>             jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


----------
George Wyner:  { <http://smgnet.bu.edu/fac/profile.cfm?key=WynerGeorge>web 
| <mailto:gwyner@b...>gwyner@b... | 
<mailto:6177336517@m...>617 733-6517 | 
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<http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=geowyner&.src=pg>Y!IM:geowyner 
| <http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=66937211>ICQ:66937211 | MSN!IM:gwyner }

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5932

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, George Wyner wrote:

> Wow!  Thanks for the detailed response!
> 
> Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:
> 
> 1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your proposal to 
> just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I suppose you could 
> add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but that's not very 
> important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then I have 
> just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required as a tag 
> and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since my estimates 
> can easily be totalled by hand.

	To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250 (say), and
then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or two :P

> 2.  Given all the above, the "misc" field is much less of a priority
> for me.

	Yep, thats why I let it slide. I'd like to do it, but..

> 3.  I knew about the link between items and datebook entries, but was
> concerned about the one-to-many issue.  Your suggestion that I do the
> individual time slots as children makes total sense and solves a big
> problem for me.

	Its the Outline way; that which cannot be done in one item, you
make children :)

> So my current plan is:
> 
> Set up tags to track the hours required.  Link to the datebook using
> link manager.  If I use children to handle multiple time slots, as you
> suggest, then I can see how much time I have actually allotted in my
> calendar to handle everything.  The only issue remaining (as far as I
> can tell) is that the linked datebook entries start out life as "no
> time" and I would need to manually move them to the appropriate time
> on my calendar.  That seems like a small amount of editing given
> everything else that I would get from this.

	And you can use the "Goto" to jump to Datebook. If you go to Link
Prefs, you can set "Return to Shadow" so that you can do a Goto to jump to
the datebook item, mess with it,set alarms, etc, and then just hit the
Home button to appear back in Shadow :)

		Enjoy :)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5933

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 11:20pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
> > 
> > Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:
> > 
> > 1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your 
proposal to 
> > just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I 
suppose you could 
> > add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but 
that's not very 
> > important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then 
I have 
> > just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required 
as a tag 
> > and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since 
my estimates 
> > can easily be totalled by hand.
> 
> 	To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250 
(say), and
> then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or 
two :P
> 

Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight 
tags and assign them, then sort or filter.
5934

From: Michael Rudnick  <egroups@R...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 0:16pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Jeff,

The new tags, views and custom filters look to be a major improvement
in an already excellent product. I can see ways that I will use all of
them to manage my projects and tasks. A few specific comments:

- I really like the ability to create a view with a filter associated
  with it. This is a major usability feature.
- If I create view "V1" with filter "F1" and view "V2" without
  checking the filter box then when I go from V2 to V2, the filter
  stays on. I see how to turn it off by checking the box and choosing
  "All" but I wonder if that will be confusing to some. I recommend
  that if the box isn't checked, then the filter is removed.
  Alternatively there could be another checkbox to say "Keep existing
  filter" or something like that.
- I want a faster way to setup tags on a task. If the tag column is
  showing it's 4 clicks to assign a tag. Could we do it in two (click
  on column and all the tags show up, then click on the tag)?
- As a lefty, I find changing views clumsy. Also, I wonder if the list
  will get so long it will be unwieldy. Could we get a popup list that
  just shows views? Could we have a preference setting that shows or
  hides the standard views within this list(Checklist, Note, Tasklist,
  etc.)?

Thanks.
--
Michael Rudnick                         
egroups@r...

Tuesday, June 18, 2002, 2:41:23 PM, you wrote:

JM>       I'm going to dash ahead of the alpha group here, I think. Shadow
JM> 2.2.10a seems pretty stable and reliable and very useful, though it does
JM> have a couple of minor glitches still, and I've not written any
JM> documentation for the many new features yet. I intend on writing some docs
JM> and getting things ready for release in a few days or a week.

JM>       But I wanted to widen up the testing and get some more user
JM> experience. Is this too difficult to use (theres no docs, so we'll see how
JM> many questions you ask). The questions you ask may help guide me to where
JM> I need to focus the documentation on. Let me know if you see any glitches,
JM> or have any wants or desires or improvements.. let me know what you think.

JM>       As a rule; download this *BETA* (knowing it has bugs, though not
JM> too many) ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO POST FEEDBACK! (good or bad. Good is
JM> equally valid, so I know what you like!)

JM>       Thje new features are not documented. There is no installer. This
JM> is just the raw .prc file.. send it up to your handheld the way you know
JM> how. If you don't know how, dont' touch a beta!

JM>       The main new things here are:

JM>       1) Customizable and savable filters
JM>       2) Customizable and savable views (list can be a saved view, and
JM> any item can be a saved view, even)
JM>       3) Tags; you can tag an item with any number of "tags" (like
JM> attributes), to represent place, people, state, whatever.

JM>       Points to know:

JM>       1) See the Link Manager -- you can add and delete tags there
JM>       2) The Tag column (in Worksheet list type, or you can add it in a
JM> custom view of your own) lets you add tags and change the primary tag with
JM> minimal taps (and better to come)
JM>       3) Custom filters can filter by tag!
JM>       4) You can sort (group) by tag
JM>       5) Views can have a filter associated to them, so when you change
JM> views, the filter becomes activated

JM>       Theres lots to play with. I know its a lot more powerful, and more
JM> complicated, than previous changes. But let me know what you think:

JM>       A) Is this stuff too complicated?
JM>       B) How would you like it improved?
JM>       C) Any performance problems?

JM>       And most importantly..

JM>       D) How do you like the new stuff? Views, tags, custom filters?

JM>       Get it here.. and remember, you must post back feedback to here,
JM> or to shadow-test, or to me.

JM>       This is BETA. This is unfinished. We are adding features to make
JM> it easier and faster to add tags, and move filters around so you can
JM> manually sort them, and other little details.

JM>       http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow2210a.zip

JM>             jeff

JM> --
JM> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
JM> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
JM> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
JM> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


JM> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
JM> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



JM> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
5935

From: smasters@a...
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
But will the parent sum up its children's "priorities"? This was going to
be the nice thing about weighting. Would this take more than a day or two?
Even nicer if this number is combined with % complete, i.e., if the weight
of a child is 4 and it's 25% complete, then the parent would use "3 out of
4 remaining" to determine overall % complete. Truly wonderful.

Scott



                                                                                                                   
                    "llgriffll"                                                                                    
                    <keith@t...        To:     shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com                                    
                    ff.net>              cc:                                                                       
                                         Subject:     [shadow-discuss] Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project   
                    06/18/2002           manager...                                                                
                    06:20 PM                                                                                       
                    Please                                                                                         
                    respond to                                                                                     
                    shadow-discus                                                                                  
                    s                                                                                              
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   





>
>          To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250
(say), and
> then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or
two :P
>

Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight
tags and assign them, then sort or filter.





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
5936

From: stugib_2000  <stuart.gibbons@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Some initial thoughts after using 2.2.10 for a couple of hours.  Some 
of these comments may have been discussed and resolved in shadow-test 
but I'm testing it as a first-look beta as requested.

General Observations
===================
The new additions are great and very useful and flexible.  The app 
appears stable, but I think there's some usability issues (see 
below).  

My Shadow background: Used for about 2 months, subscribed to the 
shadow-test list but only as an interested observer - I haven't 
downloaded any alphas but have kept an eye on the features and 
progress.  Hence I knew what tags were meant for but this is the 
first time I've used them.


Custom Filter
=============
* Really had to go through the -test archives to see what group 
letters meant and how to use a custom filter.
* Need an Edit Rule facility - even if it's not functionally 
important it just feels 'missing'
* The Group letters just don't get the AND/OR concept across - I 
think you almost need a outline/tree (max 2 level) within this screen 
where top-level branches are OR's and sub-brances are AND.  Or some 
other label to get this across, maybe something like:

+-----------------------------------+
|  \ Group A			    |
|	\- Links Broken is true	    |
|	\- Checked is false	    |
|  \ Group B			    |
|	\- Tag Association is 'John'|
+-----------------------------------+

or like this:
+-----------------------------------+
| IF  	 Links Broken is true	    |
| AND    Checked is false	    |
| ------------ OR -------------	    |
| IF	 Tag Association is 'John'  |
+-----------------------------------+

If none of the above, at least rules within the same OR group should 
be grouped together on-screen, if not automatically then available to 
do manually with re-ordering arrows?


* What does reversed mean? Does it make an '=' operator into a '!
=' ??  If so I think I'd rather see NOT= as an operator.
* When I clicked Describe on the Custom Filter selection screen I was 
expecting a textual description of the filter, e.g. "Applied if Links 
Broken and Checked is false, or if tag association is John".  I think 
this button should be called Edit.  How about the describe function 
as I put here on the Filter Detail screen just as a sanity check for 
beginners or for complex rules?
* Can the Filter selection screen respond to a double click to apply 
it?
* Are categories for filters worth considering?  With Filters (and 
Tags) being global I see myself using Tag categories to separate out 
tags that are useful for different types of list (e.g. I don't want a 
list of employees tags on my shopping list so I have a People tag 
category I use for work projects).  I just forsee having lots of 
custom filters on screen that are irrelevant to the current list 
(e.g. show John's tasks in my shopping list).  Choosing a category 
first would reduce this list.  Obviously many filters are applicable 
to any type of list but I can put these as Unfiled or show All if 
necessary.


Tags
====
* Generally, love 'em!  :-) especially selecting in-place via the pop-
up menu on the Tag column.
* Is there a point to having a link arrow on a tag? Following the 
link just gets to Tag Manager and doesn't select the chosen tag 
anyway?  If it does anything, would the Link Manager be more useful?
* As only one tag is displayable in the list column how can this be 
changed if you have >1 tag without deleting and re-adding in the 
required order in the tag manager?
* Can some indication be given in the tag column that there is more 
than one tag on the item? TagName* for example.
* Again, I'd have a double-click of a Tag in the Tag Manager to show 
its details. 


Saved Views
===========
* I think its confusing to have the custom view AND saved views, 
especially when the 'clobber' and 'update' rules come into play, 
although I suppose a custom view is specific to one list and saved 
views are global.  
* If I select a saved view, then switch to a standard view (e.g. 
Checklist) then modify the custom list view Shadow warns me my last 
view will be updated - which view?  There's no indication of which 
saved view I selected last AFAIK?
* How about showing the saved view name somewhere? 
* If the saved view applies a filter, should this be removed when 
going back to standard list, or revert to the previous filter before 
you applied the saved view?


Bugs
====
I get some problems with the scrollbar (which I put on the left, not 
because I'm left handed but because I prefer it on the other side to 
the Link arrow) - sometimes when switching views/applying filters etc 
it will temporarily be drawn on the right until I scroll or do 
something.  Just an annoying glitch - nothing that important.


Generally looking good.  Hope these comments are useful, or at least 
trigger a discussion! :-)


Stuart
5937

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:56pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
>  Then by the time I get to Shadow 3, maybe the user guide will be
>  helpfull :)

Eh! Eh! Jeff said Shadow and 3 in the same sentence. (Drool, drool). :P~

[wipes chin, downloads beta...]

- Jeramy
5938

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 3:11pm
Subject: RE: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
I'm just getting into the tag stuff, and I realized that it would be
much easier when mass producing tags if one small change were made:

When I'm in a certain category already, like People or Places or
Business, and I hit the New button at the bottom of the screen, it would
already have that category in place, instead of having to select it
every time.  I could change it if I needed too, or I could just leave
what's already in the box if that's right.

Sure would be quicker.

Jen

-------------
PocketGoddess
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
5939

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 3:20pm
Subject: Desktop Comments

 
I have nothing but great things to say about the handheld version of 
SP, I recommend without hesitation to my friends Jeff but what about 
the desktop version of SP, My experience with it has been not so 
bright. I first registered it and performed the hot sync but my clie 
wouldn't hot sync, my guess was that the conduit did not read 
properly...tried I several times without success and finally I had to 
completely uninstall the desktop software out of my pc and then 
things went back to normal.....I'm envisioning a desktop version 
where I can create or update my current list, hotsync back to the 
clie and have it there, the interesting thing will be how tags and 
custom views are supported on the desktop version. I was going to 
write this when it actually happened @two weeks ago but was not able 
to and to be quite honest I was having to much fun with handheld 
version of SP to concern myself with the desktop for the moment but 
wanted to get your insights on this topic, thanks Jeff

Also wanted to know if you've ever thought of developing your own 
datebook to compete against the other two
5940

From: geowyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:02pm
Subject: 2.2.10 BETA: Can't override saved view using Custom button

 
First, the tags are awesome!  I have set up a "schedule view" with 
tags that record hourly estimates for various tasks.  Works great!

Second, do I post beta feedback here?  or should I be on some kind of 
beta list?

Third, here is a minor bug report (at least I am assuming its a bug):

I have a list which is displayed using a saved view.  When I choose 
list prefs and push the "custom" button I get a warning message that 
if I change the settings here I will loose the link to the saved 
view.  When I click OK and change the setting it is not recorded (I 
am back with the saved view).  I would expect the change to be saved 
and the List type to change to "Custom."

This is not an urgent item for me.  Just providing feedback as 
requested.
5941

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:34pm
Subject: Desktop idea, one more try

 
Yesterday I posted a desktop idea and there were no responses.  
Either there is no interest in the idea or I did a very poor job of 
explaining myself.

I'd like to try just one more time because it was such a good concept 
in ECCO (the best rated PIM of its day).

On the desktop, instead of showing the details of just one item you 
could show the details of ALL items in columns. 

i.e. one column for priority, one column for checkbox, one column for 
target date...

(Notes would have to be handled differently, maybe with/under the 
item itself.)

This would really open up you whole outline view and make for very 
easy editing.

It would be particularly nice if there was a column for each tag.  
Then you could select a tag just by clicking in it's column.

I realize this would be a major programming ordeal, but it was a very 
powerful concept in ECCO and I just wanted to get the idea out there.

Gerry
5942

From: George Wyner  <gwyner@b...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
Yes.  I have tried it and it works.  The only thing you don't get is any 
kind of automatic totalling of weights...

>Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight
>tags and assign them, then sort or filter.



> > >
> > > Here is a quick overview of what I take from all this:
> > >
> > > 1.  Adding weighting will pretty much solve my problem.  Your
>proposal to
> > > just have numbers and let us assign units makes sense.  I
>suppose you could
> > > add a user definable "units" field to track the units, but
>that's not very
> > > important to me.  If I can display the weights in a column, then
>I have
> > > just what I need.  In the meantime, entering the hours required
>as a tag
> > > and displaying that in the column will solve my problem, since
>my estimates
> > > can easily be totalled by hand.
> >
> >       To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250
>(say), and
> > then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> > column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or
>two :P
> >
>


----------
George Wyner:  { <http://smgnet.bu.edu/fac/profile.cfm?key=WynerGeorge>web 
| <mailto:gwyner@b...>gwyner@b... | 
<mailto:6177336517@m...>617 733-6517 | 
<aim:goim?screenname=geowyn&message=Hi.+Are+you+there?>AOL!IM:geowyn | 
<http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=geowyner&.src=pg>Y!IM:geowyner 
| <http://web.icq.com/wwp?Uin=66937211>ICQ:66937211 | MSN!IM:gwyner }

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5943

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:

> Hmm...couldn't this be done with TAGS now? One could define weight 
> tags and assign them, then sort or filter.

	Tags are symbolic; you cannot judge for "tag < 5", since a
"tag" is a symbol, not a value. You could do "item doe snot include tag
"weight-0 and tag does not include weight-1 and tag does not include
weight-2", but it'd be way easier to use "weight > 3" in a filter.

	Tags are way cool, but they're not for everything ;)

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5944

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Michael Rudnick wrote:

> - I really like the ability to create a view with a filter associated
>   with it. This is a major usability feature.

	If you come up with any cool ideas, submit to shadow-tips for
others to learn from.

> - If I create view "V1" with filter "F1" and view "V2" without
>   checking the filter box then when I go from V2 to V2, the filter
>   stays on. I see how to turn it off by checking the box and choosing
>   "All" but I wonder if that will be confusing to some. I recommend
>   that if the box isn't checked, then the filter is removed.
>   Alternatively there could be another checkbox to say "Keep existing
>   filter" or something like that.

	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should it remove
the filter?

	What do folks think?

> - I want a faster way to setup tags on a task. If the tag column is
>   showing it's 4 clicks to assign a tag. Could we do it in two (click
>   on column and all the tags show up, then click on the tag)?

	I'll be adding something like this soon, for the final release.

> - As a lefty, I find changing views clumsy. Also, I wonder if the list
>   will get so long it will be unwieldy. Could we get a popup list that
>   just shows views? Could we have a preference setting that shows or
>   hides the standard views within this list(Checklist, Note, Tasklist,
>   etc.)?

	I'm thinking hiding the list would lead to confusion. You can get
the list in the [V] menu, but also in the List Prefs window.

	I will likely add an "Apply" button to the View Manager, too, so
you can use it to assign the views. What do you think?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5945

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 smasters@a... wrote:

> But will the parent sum up its children's "priorities"? This was going to
> be the nice thing about weighting. Would this take more than a day or two?
> Even nicer if this number is combined with % complete, i.e., if the weight
> of a child is 4 and it's 25% complete, then the parent would use "3 out of
> 4 remaining" to determine overall % complete. Truly wonderful.

	The whole idea of weights was to adjust how much weight a child
was to the parents completion percentage :)

	But yeah, the parent would display the sum of the weights, just
like it shows the average of its children completion (if you had the
weighting field turned on).

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5946

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, stugib_2000 wrote:

> Some initial thoughts after using 2.2.10 for a couple of hours.  Some 
> of these comments may have been discussed and resolved in shadow-test 
> but I'm testing it as a first-look beta as requested.

	Yep; Some of this is necessarily hard. I just want to see if
peopel think the hard parts are where I think they are, or if its all hard
and I need to fix it.

> Custom Filter
> =============
> * Really had to go through the -test archives to see what group 
> letters meant and how to use a custom filter.

        Yep; I don'tthink theres a way to make "OR" groups easy enogh to
understand right off the top. Boolean logic is neessarily complex, so I've
kept it dumbed down and easy to do.. but still a complex topic. (ie:
Newbies won't go near enough to custom filters to encounter AND and OR in
the first place :P)

> * Need an Edit Rule facility - even if it's not functionally 
> important it just feels 'missing'

	I'll likely add it. Not sure if day 1, but sometime.

> * The Group letters just don't get the AND/OR concept across - I 
> think you almost need a outline/tree (max 2 level) within this screen 
> where top-level branches are OR's and sub-brances are AND.  Or some 
> other label to get this across, maybe something like:
> 
> +-----------------------------------+
> |  \ Group A			    |
> |	\- Links Broken is true	    |
> |	\- Checked is false	    |
> |  \ Group B			    |
> |	\- Tag Association is 'John'|
> +-----------------------------------+
> 
> or like this:
> +-----------------------------------+
> | IF  	 Links Broken is true	    |
> | AND    Checked is false	    |
> | ------------ OR -------------	    |
> | IF	 Tag Association is 'John'  |
> +-----------------------------------+

	Not enough screen realestate to do this really well; I thought
about it, and played with it (ideally, I'd like a flow chart engine where
you drag stuff around, but thats way out of scope). Doing anything like IF
and AND makes it much more confusing, since you then need to use position
to define context. Your first above can do it, but its still confusing
(ie: As confusing as it is now.. the user woudl have to look it up to have
any idea whats going on). I coudln't think of a way of presenting it
efficiently and well, where the user didn't need to look it up. I'm
reaosnably sure now that AND and OR are just necessarily tough, unless I
add another 20k to the app with a big huge filter editor :P

> If none of the above, at least rules within the same OR group should
> be grouped together on-screen, if not automatically then available to
> do manually with re-ordering arrows?

	I'm hoping to auto-order by group, yeah.

> * What does reversed mean? Does it make an '=' operator into a '!
> =' ??  If so I think I'd rather see NOT= as an operator.

	It is logical NOT, yeah. Mathies will want to see "NOT", but I'm
torn.. ie: To use "<>" or "!=". In the end I chose !=, even though
business users prefer "<>". But business users prefer "Reversed" over NOT,
I think. Hard to say :/ I may need to include better (i) help.

> * When I clicked Describe on the Custom Filter selection screen I was 
> expecting a textual description of the filter, e.g. "Applied if Links 
> Broken and Checked is false, or if tag association is John".  I think 
> this button should be called Edit.  How about the describe function 
> as I put here on the Filter Detail screen just as a sanity check for 
> beginners or for complex rules?

	Describe is there for the built-ins. For customs, its the same as
the Details/Properties graphical button on the top of the screen. I've
debated removing the button, but some versions of Palm OS go nuts when you
do that, so I try and avoid it. I'm tempted to change the label to "Edit"
when in custom filters, and "Describe" when in built-ins.

> * Can the Filter selection screen respond to a double click to apply 
> it?

	Double-tap is not really reliable on Palm OS (ie: Its terrible on
older versions; on recent Palm OS its much more usable, but even then, it
varies by handheld vendor). So I prefer to avoid double-taps and such..
causes a lot of support problems :/

> * Are categories for filters worth considering?  With Filters (and 
> Tags) being global I see myself using Tag categories to separate out 
> tags that are useful for different types of list (e.g. I don't want a 
> list of employees tags on my shopping list so I have a People tag 
> category I use for work projects).  I just forsee having lots of 
> custom filters on screen that are irrelevant to the current list 
> (e.g. show John's tasks in my shopping list).  Choosing a category 
> first would reduce this list.  Obviously many filters are applicable 
> to any type of list but I can put these as Unfiled or show All if 
> necessary.

	I may add filter categories, but not for day 1. A bit later, after
peopel have created a stack of them :P

> Tags
> ====
> * Generally, love 'em!  :-) especially selecting in-place via the pop-
> up menu on the Tag column.

	I'm really happy with the "thin" version of the tag column. I've
got a few custom views, and they've all got that one now :P

> * Is there a point to having a link arrow on a tag? Following the 
> link just gets to Tag Manager and doesn't select the chosen tag 
> anyway?  If it does anything, would the Link Manager be more useful?

	I assume you mean when you've expanded-links, the link arrow on
the side. Its there for consistency, and maybe future expansion.

> * As only one tag is displayable in the list column how can this be 
> changed if you have >1 tag without deleting and re-adding in the 
> required order in the tag manager?

	Tapping the tag column lets you select a tag; that tag is then
moved to the prime-tag slot. I will be adding a Remove Tag option there
too, to go with Add Tag. Also, in the Link Manager, you'll be able to
manually re-order tags (up/down buttons).

> * Can some indication be given in the tag column that there is more 
> than one tag on the item? TagName* for example.

	Thats a good idea.

	Anyone else like it?

> * Again, I'd have a double-click of a Tag in the Tag Manager to show 
> its details. 
> 
> Saved Views
> ===========
> * I think its confusing to have the custom view AND saved views, 
> especially when the 'clobber' and 'update' rules come into play, 
> although I suppose a custom view is specific to one list and saved 
> views are global.  

	Correct; also, its there for backwards compatability -- wouldn't
you hate it if you used all custom views (many people do), and you install
Shadow 2.5, and all your lists show up as checklists? That would annoy you
a lot, since you may have them tuned "just right", and can't remember what
they all looked like. It would also suck to have all your lists, as
they're opened, have their custom settings made into a fake-random-name
saved-view, so that they coudl keep their appearance. And I don't want to
build a "copy view from current list to a saved view" operation, since it
would be short lived utility.

	So, I let you keep your custom views :)

> * If I select a saved view, then switch to a standard view (e.g. 
> Checklist) then modify the custom list view Shadow warns me my last 
> view will be updated - which view?  There's no indication of which 
> saved view I selected last AFAIK?

	I'm confused which warning you're talking about; ie: If you're in
List Prefs, with a saved view, and then switch to a standard view, the
custom button goes away so you cannot customize anything. So I'm confused.

> * How about showing the saved view name somewhere? 

	Can you think of anywhere? :)

	I wanted to put it in the title, but thats got the filename and
the zoom name in it.. not much room.

> * If the saved view applies a filter, should this be removed when 
> going back to standard list, or revert to the previous filter before 
> you applied the saved view?

	Should it? I'm not sure, so I left it. If you change from a view
with a filter, to a view without a filter, should the filter be removed? I
guess it probably should.

> Bugs
> ====
> I get some problems with the scrollbar (which I put on the left, not 
> because I'm left handed but because I prefer it on the other side to 
> the Link arrow) - sometimes when switching views/applying filters etc 
> it will temporarily be drawn on the right until I scroll or do 
> something.  Just an annoying glitch - nothing that important.

	Can you list a specific series of steps when this will occur?

> Generally looking good.  Hope these comments are useful, or at least 
> trigger a discussion! :-)

	Very well done. Thanks from me and the other users :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5947

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:40pm
Subject: RE: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, PocketGoddess wrote:

> I'm just getting into the tag stuff, and I realized that it would be
> much easier when mass producing tags if one small change were made:
> 
> When I'm in a certain category already, like People or Places or
> Business, and I hit the New button at the bottom of the screen, it would
> already have that category in place, instead of having to select it
> every time.  I could change it if I needed too, or I could just leave
> what's already in the box if that's right.
> 
> Sure would be quicker.

	Good call. I'll do it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5948

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Desktop Comments

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> I have nothing but great things to say about the handheld version of 
> SP, I recommend without hesitation to my friends Jeff but what about 
> the desktop version of SP, My experience with it has been not so 

	I'm following a schedule based on priorities, number of requests,
and ease of gettings things done most efficiently. Once Shadow 2.5 goes
out (all handheld goodness), the handheld is shelved for a couple of
months while I focus on the conduit and desktops (Mac included, take it
easy folks ;).

> Also wanted to know if you've ever thought of developing your own 
> datebook to compete against the other two

	No; Theres just no point in wrestling with giants, and two,
DateBk5 and CESD are good. If DateBk5 was faster and had a usefull highres
list view, it'd be perfect ;)

	I would like to build a better "viewer" for todo, datebook, and
shadow items, though. (ie: Something to show everything thats going on
"today" (or some filter), across all interesting applications)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5949

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:46pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA: Can't override saved view using Custom button

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, geowyner wrote:

> First, the tags are awesome!  I have set up a "schedule view" with 
> tags that record hourly estimates for various tasks.  Works great!
> 
> Second, do I post beta feedback here?  or should I be on some kind of 
> beta list?

	Post beta stuff in -iscuss here; if I didn't want discussion here,
I'd have not posted the URL to the beta here :) (ie: Alpha is always in
shadow-test; sometimes I do early beta there, too. But stable betas are
usually in -discuss right before I show up for public release, so I can
get last kinks out and get some last ideas to refine things)

> Third, here is a minor bug report (at least I am assuming its a bug):
> 
> I have a list which is displayed using a saved view.  When I choose
> list prefs and push the "custom" button I get a warning message that
> if I change the settings here I will loose the link to the saved view.  
> When I click OK and change the setting it is not recorded (I am back
> with the saved view).  I would expect the change to be saved and the
> List type to change to "Custom."
> 
> This is not an urgent item for me.  Just providing feedback as 
> requested.

	You're right. Good catch.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5950

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Desktop idea, one more try

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, onemoreolive wrote:

> Yesterday I posted a desktop idea and there were no responses.  
> Either there is no interest in the idea or I did a very poor job of 
> explaining myself.
> 
> I'd like to try just one more time because it was such a good concept 
> in ECCO (the best rated PIM of its day).

	<devils advocate>
	(which is now discontinued ;) *teehee*
	</devils advocate>

> On the desktop, instead of showing the details of just one item you 
> could show the details of ALL items in columns. 

	The desktop is attempting to be a weak metaphor of the
handheld; ie: It is not (yet) a standalone outliner.. it is an assistant
for the handheld application. As such, it should work similarly.

> i.e. one column for priority, one column for checkbox, one column for 
> target date...

	I've been debating a column view, however (or like a spreadsheet
view), as it has a lot of things going for it. I may support 3 or 4
different views.. the current one, a project manager oriented one, and a
note taker oriented one. We'll see when I get there :)

	(maybe post in shadow-desktop, as that forum is for people who
care about the desktop, though a lot of people don't know that forum
exists).

> (Notes would have to be handled differently, maybe with/under the 
> item itself.)
> 
> This would really open up you whole outline view and make for very 
> easy editing.
> 
> It would be particularly nice if there was a column for each tag.  
> Then you could select a tag just by clicking in it's column.

	Not usable; horizontal scrolling is not fun, and people will have
more than a half dozen tags.

> I realize this would be a major programming ordeal, but it was a very 
> powerful concept in ECCO and I just wanted to get the idea out there.

	We'll see when we get there; but you must be careful .. Shadow is
not ECCO, and serversd a different audience (an overallping, but
different, audience). We do not want things "because it was good in Ecco".
We want features "because they are good for Shadow Desktop users". Steal
at will your suggestions from Ecco, but make sure they're good for what
we're doing first, and not just "good in your memory" ;)

	(I say this, because I get 10 people a day telling me how cool
Ecco is ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5951

From: onemoreolive  <onemoreolive@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Desktop idea, one more try

 
> 
> 	(I say this, because I get 10 people a day telling me how cool
> Ecco is ;)


Sheesh and I thought you may not have heard of it!

I heard the developers wanted to buy it but management wanted no part 
of it, and preferred to let it die. Go figure.

Actually the first time I tried Shadow I thought of Ecco.  Then I 
thought:  a Shadow is an echo of a person and an Ecco is a shadow of 
a sound.

Don't worry I'm leaving now.

Gerry
5952

From: stugib_2000  <stuart.gibbons@p...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:22pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
> > * When I clicked Describe on the Custom Filter selection screen I 
was 
> > expecting a textual description of the filter, e.g. "Applied if 
Links 
> > Broken and Checked is false, or if tag association is John".  I 
think 
> > this button should be called Edit.  How about the describe 
function 
> > as I put here on the Filter Detail screen just as a sanity check 
for 
> > beginners or for complex rules?
> 
> 	Describe is there for the built-ins. For customs, its the 
same as
> the Details/Properties graphical button on the top of the screen. 
I've
> debated removing the button, but some versions of Palm OS go nuts 
when you
> do that, so I try and avoid it. I'm tempted to change the label 
to "Edit"
> when in custom filters, and "Describe" when in built-ins.
> 

Must admit hadn't noticed (or rather remembered) the function of this 
on the built-in filters screen.  I think this is even more 
justification to change it to "Edit"/"Details".



> > Tags
> > ====
> > * Is there a point to having a link arrow on a tag? Following the 
> > link just gets to Tag Manager and doesn't select the chosen tag 
> > anyway?  If it does anything, would the Link Manager be more 
useful?
> 
> 	I assume you mean when you've expanded-links, the link arrow 
on
> the side. Its there for consistency, and maybe future expansion.
> 

Yep, I meant when links are expanded.  I'll just look forward to 
whatever plans you've got for them :-)




> > * As only one tag is displayable in the list column how can this 
be 
> > changed if you have >1 tag without deleting and re-adding in the 
> > required order in the tag manager?
> 
> 	Tapping the tag column lets you select a tag; that tag is then
> moved to the prime-tag slot. I will be adding a Remove Tag option 
there
> too, to go with Add Tag. Also, in the Link Manager, you'll be able 
to
> manually re-order tags (up/down buttons).


Ah, got ya now - there's one for the user guide then!



> 
> > Saved Views
> > ===========
> > * I think its confusing to have the custom view AND saved views, 
> > especially when the 'clobber' and 'update' rules come into play, 
> > although I suppose a custom view is specific to one list and 
saved 
> > views are global.  
> 
> 	Correct; also, its there for backwards compatability -- 
wouldn't
> you hate it if you used all custom views (many people do), and you 
install
> Shadow 2.5, and all your lists show up as checklists? That would 
annoy you
> a lot, since you may have them tuned "just right", and can't 
remember what
> they all looked like. It would also suck to have all your lists, as
> they're opened, have their custom settings made into a fake-random-
name
> saved-view, so that they coudl keep their appearance. And I don't 
want to
> build a "copy view from current list to a saved view" operation, 
since it
> would be short lived utility.
> 
> 	So, I let you keep your custom views :)

Yeah, thought about that 'save to ListXXXCustom view' option but 
agree it's a no-go.



> 
> > * If I select a saved view, then switch to a standard view (e.g. 
> > Checklist) then modify the custom list view Shadow warns me my 
last 
> > view will be updated - which view?  There's no indication of 
which 
> > saved view I selected last AFAIK?
> 
> 	I'm confused which warning you're talking about; ie: If 
you're in
> List Prefs, with a saved view, and then switch to a standard view, 
the
> custom button goes away so you cannot customize anything. So I'm 
confused.
> 

My mistake.  I misunderstood what was happening.  I put my list in 
SavedView1 (this overwrites the original Custom forever?).  I then 
put it into Checklist (change to Custom directly isn't in the list) 
and then put it into Custom.  This is now the same as SavedView1 
because the original Custom was overwritten.  I then went into list 
preferences and used the Custom button - what actually happened was 
that the changes were ignored (as the message aludes to), but what I 
didn't notice was that the List Type was still SavedView1 (not 
Custom).  Would it be better only to show the Custom button when 
Custom List Type is manually selected in the combo?  This avoids 
having to give the warning message as well.



> > * How about showing the saved view name somewhere? 
> 
> 	Can you think of anywhere? :)
> 
> 	I wanted to put it in the title, but thats got the filename 
and
> the zoom name in it.. not much room.
> 

I take the point :-)  I was thinking a top entry on the [V] menu such 
as C:CustomFilter appears in [F], or could the current view be bolded 
in this menu?



> > * If the saved view applies a filter, should this be removed when 
> > going back to standard list, or revert to the previous filter 
before 
> > you applied the saved view?
> 
> 	Should it? I'm not sure, so I left it. If you change from a 
view
> with a filter, to a view without a filter, should the filter be 
removed? I
> guess it probably should.

I'd err on the side of removing it again, but lets see what others 
say.  Can you 'remember' the filter state for the built-in views to 
restore it later?  Therefore saved views apply their filter, going 
back to a built-in view restores the previous filter (or none).  
Caveat: If currently in a built-in view with a filter applied, does 
applying a saved view with NO filter remove the current filter or 
not?  Tricky.  Not sure.  I am finding removing the Saved View filter 
afterwards a bit of a pain already though...




> 
> > Bugs
> > ====
> > I get some problems with the scrollbar (which I put on the left, 
not 
> > because I'm left handed but because I prefer it on the other side 
to 
> > the Link arrow) - sometimes when switching views/applying filters 
etc 
> > it will temporarily be drawn on the right until I scroll or do 
> > something.  Just an annoying glitch - nothing that important.
> 
> 	Can you list a specific series of steps when this will occur?
> 

Not at the last attempt but I'll work on it!
5953

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:39pm
Subject: Desktop Comments

 
Jeff, what you mentioned earlier is exactly what I envision for the 
desktop version
5954

From: Michael Rudnick  <egroups@R...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:40pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Jeff,

JM>       I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
JM> enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should it remove
JM> the filter?

JM>       What do folks think?

My vote is to remove the filter. I think it would confuse the new user
otherwise. Another option would be to change the interaction of the
View Detail dialog box. If the box is unchecked, then remove the
filter. If it is checked, apply the filter listed.

>> - As a lefty, I find changing views clumsy. Also, I wonder if the list
>>   will get so long it will be unwieldy. Could we get a popup list that
>>   just shows views? Could we have a preference setting that shows or
>>   hides the standard views within this list(Checklist, Note, Tasklist,
>>   etc.)?

JM>       I'm thinking hiding the list would lead to confusion. You can get
JM> the list in the [V] menu, but also in the List Prefs window.

JM>       I will likely add an "Apply" button to the View Manager, too, so
JM> you can use it to assign the views. What do you think?

I would like to make the [V] menu shorter. Could you have a preference
"Only show Custom Views on View list". Default is unchecked, for new
users. Then an advanced user who uses views a lot can check it and
just see their views on the list.

I like the idea of Apply in the View Manager. Also, have "Add" in the
Tag Manager to add the highlighted tag to the current task.

One other item, on filters. Can you add a Filter Operation for dates?
I'd like to be able to filter on a date range. One option would be to
filter on a relative offset from today:

   Operation:  Target Date before
   =           x
   Note: Enter the number of days before today

and

   Operation:  Target Date after
   =           x
   Note: Enter the number of days after today

I guess you would need these for all the dates.

Thanks.
--
Michael Rudnick                         
egroups@r...
5955

From: carinas30  <doggyloo@e...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:42pm
Subject: Lost registration to shadow

 
I wrote before (few months ago). Still no success in re entering my 
code so I can use shadow plan again. I have had problems getting my 
handheld to update when hotsyncing. Many times I'd loose any data, 
preferences or changes done on the handheld after a hotsync. This may 
be part of the problem of the registration problem. Please help.

Thanks,
Carina
5956

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Desktop idea, one more try

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, onemoreolive wrote:

> Sheesh and I thought you may not have heard of it!
> 
> I heard the developers wanted to buy it but management wanted no part 
> of it, and preferred to let it die. Go figure.
> 
> Actually the first time I tried Shadow I thought of Ecco.  Then I 
> thought:  a Shadow is an echo of a person and an Ecco is a shadow of 
> a sound.
> 
> Don't worry I'm leaving now.

	The men in the white suits in the padded car are there?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5957

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, stugib_2000 wrote:

> My mistake.  I misunderstood what was happening.  I put my list in 
> SavedView1 (this overwrites the original Custom forever?).  I then 

	If you go to a saved view from a custom unique view, you are
warned about the clobbering and if you say "go ahead", then you are
changed to the saved view, and your old unique view is lost. You can go
back to a unique view if you want (hit the Customize button), and are then
warned you're orphaning from the saved view, and if you "go ahead" then
you're back to unique again. So you can change between unique or saved,
but when you do so, your unique settings are lost.

> put it into Checklist (change to Custom directly isn't in the list) 
> and then put it into Custom.  This is now the same as SavedView1 
> because the original Custom was overwritten.  I then went into list 

	If you're using [V], its like this: Changing from Saved View to
Checklist, and then to Custom, will (I think, I've forgotten :P) change
you back to your saved view (since you have not defined a custom unique
yet, it goes to your last saved view). You'd have to orphan yourself
first, which I think you can't get to on the [V] menu (it won't let you go
form saved to unique, but it will let you go from unique to saved). I
know, its a bit whacky, but I imagine most people won't used unique views
once they move to saved views.. theres just no point.

> preferences and used the Custom button - what actually happened was 
> that the changes were ignored (as the message aludes to), but what I 
> didn't notice was that the List Type was still SavedView1 (not 
> Custom).  Would it be better only to show the Custom button when 
> Custom List Type is manually selected in the combo?  This avoids 
> having to give the warning message as well.

	Warning is still needed, I think. I think having the Customize
button there still makes sense for saved views.. ie: I could see you,
being a cluefull oldbie, pulling up list prefs and hitting customize and
Yes and going ahead to make a unique view, if thats what you want to do.
Having to change to cusotm first might be an extra tap. Hard to say.. due
to the complexity, its difficult to guess user usage patterns ahead of
time nowadays :/

> > > * How about showing the saved view name somewhere? 
> > 
> > 	Can you think of anywhere? :)
> > 
> > 	I wanted to put it in the title, but thats got the filename 
> and
> > the zoom name in it.. not much room.
> 
> I take the point :-)  I was thinking a top entry on the [V] menu such 
> as C:CustomFilter appears in [F], or could the current view be bolded 
> in this menu?

	I could bold it in the [V], but I'm not sure its usefull?

> I'd err on the side of removing it again, but lets see what others
> say.  Can you 'remember' the filter state for the built-in views to
> restore it later?  Therefore saved views apply their filter, going
> back to a built-in view restores the previous filter (or none).  

	I don't want to get to too much "magic"; if you go to a saved
view that has no filter, you toss the filter. Going to a built in view,
which by definition have no filters, should then also toss out the filter,
for consistency.

> Caveat: If currently in a built-in view with a filter applied, does
> applying a saved view with NO filter remove the current filter or not?  
> Tricky.  Not sure.  I am finding removing the Saved View filter
> afterwards a bit of a pain already though...

	[F] -> Remove filter.. two taps :)

	These are all tough cases. I think going from built-in with filter
to saved-view with no filter should disable the filter, just like in the
above cases. Consistency is important.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5958

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:01pm
Subject: Re: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Michael Rudnick wrote:

> I would like to make the [V] menu shorter. Could you have a preference
> "Only show Custom Views on View list". Default is unchecked, for new
> users. Then an advanced user who uses views a lot can check it and
> just see their views on the list.

	I may do this; a couple people have requested it (to my
surprise!).

> I like the idea of Apply in the View Manager. Also, have "Add" in the
> Tag Manager to add the highlighted tag to the current task.

	Tag Manager -> Add is a toughie; ie: It seems like a good idea,
but then I have to hide that option when an item is not selected, and show
the items title in the tag manager screens when an item is selected (so
people don't forget which is selected), and hide the option when in the
custom filter builder and picking tags. When having stacked windows in
Palm OS, it can crash older units to hide buttons (I've found out). So I'm
in debate over this one.

	But View -> Apply seems logical.

> One other item, on filters. Can you add a Filter Operation for dates?

	Will be doing. Its reasonably a complex set of needs.

> I'd like to be able to filter on a date range. One option would be to
> filter on a relative offset from today:

	We're intending on things like:

Last month
Last week
This week
Yesterday
Today
Tomorrow
Next week
Next month

	So do things like "show me events > last month" (which is
everythign since the first of this month, say), or "show me stuff <
today", etc.

>    Operation:  Target Date before
>    =           x
>    Note: Enter the number of days before today
> 
> and
> 
>    Operation:  Target Date after
>    =           x
>    Note: Enter the number of days after today

	Thats a pretty good idea; that could save me making a popup to
show those options above, and would be more versatile (since you could
specify 23 days if you really wanted to). Then a popup like above would
just enter in "31" for "month".

	So.. Target Date < 30 (would be target date less than 30 days
away). The problem is we still need "show me stuff this week", and this
week is a variabel number of days away from today.

	So I'll probably stick with the above at first, and maybe add
numerical checks later.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5959

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:02pm
Subject: Re: Lost registration to shadow

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, carinas30 wrote:

> I wrote before (few months ago). Still no success in re entering my 
> code so I can use shadow plan again. I have had problems getting my 
> handheld to update when hotsyncing. Many times I'd loose any data, 
> preferences or changes done on the handheld after a hotsync. This may 
> be part of the problem of the registration problem. Please help.

	Taking this to private email.

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5960

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:28pm
Subject: A possible Viewer incorporating App/todo/Sp... Wow

 
Jeff, that would be totally cool, I'm guessing it will look or work 
similar to hotdate 1.3 or something along those lines..You know what 
would be cool as hell, is you you can somehow create that viewer 
similar in its GUI to ActionNames List View, with those nice bold 
outlines and one would choose one of the two, I'm thinking you really 
only need two options: This Week and Next Week, what do you think... 
and maybe one call Radar, where it would incorporate appt, todos, sp, 
and one for radar...What do you think, perhaps a poll to get some 
more feedback
5961

From: Anthony Schellenberg  <aschell2000@h...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:01am
Subject: Re: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
>
>	We're intending on things like:
>
>Last month
>Last week
>This week
>Yesterday
>Today
>Tomorrow
>Next week
>Next month
>
>	So do things like "show me events > last month" (which is
>everythign since the first of this month, say), or "show me stuff <
>today", etc.

I'd like to suggest an additional one:  Next 7 days.  This is different than 
saying 'this week' or 'next week'.  Say it's friday and you take a quick 
look at 'this week' to make sure you've remembered everything, great.  Now 
Sunday comes and you find out you forgot something big because it didn't 
show in this week, but was rather in next week, even though it was only 2 
days from friday.  This is just an example, but I know that this kind of 
limitation has frustrated me a bit in some desktop apps.  Sometimes I just 
want to know what's up in the next few days without having to check both 
'this week' and 'next week'.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com
5962

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:07am
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
It should remove the filter...basically apply whatever filter is in 
the view, in this case a non-filter.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Michael Rudnick wrote:
> 
> > - I really like the ability to create a view with a filter 
associated
> >   with it. This is a major usability feature.
> 
> 	If you come up with any cool ideas, submit to shadow-tips for
> others to learn from.
> 
> > - If I create view "V1" with filter "F1" and view "V2" without
> >   checking the filter box then when I go from V2 to V2, the 
filter
> >   stays on. I see how to turn it off by checking the box and 
choosing
> >   "All" but I wonder if that will be confusing to some. I 
recommend
> >   that if the box isn't checked, then the filter is removed.
> >   Alternatively there could be another checkbox to say "Keep 
existing
> >   filter" or something like that.
> 
> 	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should 
it remove
> the filter?
> 
> 	What do folks think?
>
5963

From: Anthony Schellenberg  <aschell2000@h...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:13am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
I like it that it keeps the filter.  It's easy enough to turn the filter 
off, harder to go in and turn on the right filter if you want the same 
filtering.  I like the ability to setup some views with no filters that will 
then allow  me to quickly switch between various ways of looking at the same 
data.  If filters were always removed then I'd have to set up a lot more 
views.

>
>It should remove the filter...basically apply whatever filter is in
>the view, in this case a non-filter.
>

> >
> > 	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> > enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should
>it remove
> > the filter?
> >
> > 	What do folks think?


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
5964

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:21am
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Wow...I can see where you are coming from too. Him, perhaps a 
specific "Filterless" option per view. If you switch to a view with 
this option set, any filter gets removed...otherwise last filter 
applied stays, until it hits a Filterless, or a different Filter.

To make things consistent he'd really need to have filters removed 
if there is no filter in a view...but that's the logic side of me 
speaking...

Good luck deciding this one Jeff ;-)

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Anthony Schellenberg" 
<aschell2000@h...> wrote:
> 
> I like it that it keeps the filter.  It's easy enough to turn the 
filter 
> off, harder to go in and turn on the right filter if you want the 
same 
> filtering.  I like the ability to setup some views with no filters 
that will 
> then allow  me to quickly switch between various ways of looking 
at the same 
> data.  If filters were always removed then I'd have to set up a 
lot more 
> views.
> 
> >
> >It should remove the filter...basically apply whatever filter is 
in
> >the view, in this case a non-filter.
> >
> 
> > >
> > > 	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> > > enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. 
should
> >it remove
> > > the filter?
> > >
> > > 	What do folks think?
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
5965

From: Anthony Schellenberg  <aschell2000@h...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:27am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
If you really want no filter in a view, you could just check filter and 
choose all in the view manager.  Perhaps this could even be the default when 
creating a view.  Then if someone didn't want the filter changed when 
selecting the view, they could specifically uncheck the filter box when 
setting up the view.


>From: "llgriffll" <keith@t...>
>Reply-To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.
>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 03:21:23 -0000
>
>Wow...I can see where you are coming from too. Him, perhaps a
>specific "Filterless" option per view. If you switch to a view with
>this option set, any filter gets removed...otherwise last filter
>applied stays, until it hits a Filterless, or a different Filter.
>
>To make things consistent he'd really need to have filters removed
>if there is no filter in a view...but that's the logic side of me
>speaking...
>
>Good luck deciding this one Jeff ;-)
>
>--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Anthony Schellenberg"
><aschell2000@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I like it that it keeps the filter.  It's easy enough to turn the
>filter
> > off, harder to go in and turn on the right filter if you want the
>same
> > filtering.  I like the ability to setup some views with no filters
>that will
> > then allow  me to quickly switch between various ways of looking
>at the same
> > data.  If filters were always removed then I'd have to set up a
>lot more
> > views.
> >
> > >
> > >It should remove the filter...basically apply whatever filter is
>in
> > >the view, in this case a non-filter.
> > >
> >
> > > >
> > > > 	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> > > > enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter..
>should
> > >it remove
> > > > the filter?
> > > >
> > > > 	What do folks think?
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




_________________________________________________________________
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5966

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:29am
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Which is the same as going filterless...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Anthony Schellenberg" 
<aschell2000@h...> wrote:
> If you really want no filter in a view, you could just check 
filter and 
> choose all in the view manager.  Perhaps this could even be the 
default when 
> creating a view.  Then if someone didn't want the filter changed 
when 
> selecting the view, they could specifically uncheck the filter box 
when 
> setting up the view.
> 
> 
> >From: "llgriffll" <keith@t...>
> >Reply-To: shadow-discuss@y...
> >To: shadow-discuss@y...
> >Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.
> >Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 03:21:23 -0000
> >
> >Wow...I can see where you are coming from too. Him, perhaps a
> >specific "Filterless" option per view. If you switch to a view 
with
> >this option set, any filter gets removed...otherwise last filter
> >applied stays, until it hits a Filterless, or a different Filter.
> >
> >To make things consistent he'd really need to have filters removed
> >if there is no filter in a view...but that's the logic side of me
> >speaking...
> >
> >Good luck deciding this one Jeff ;-)
> >
> >--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Anthony Schellenberg"
> ><aschell2000@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I like it that it keeps the filter.  It's easy enough to turn 
the
> >filter
> > > off, harder to go in and turn on the right filter if you want 
the
> >same
> > > filtering.  I like the ability to setup some views with no 
filters
> >that will
> > > then allow  me to quickly switch between various ways of 
looking
> >at the same
> > > data.  If filters were always removed then I'd have to set up a
> >lot more
> > > views.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >It should remove the filter...basically apply whatever filter 
is
> >in
> > > >the view, in this case a non-filter.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with 
a filter
> > > > > enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter..
> >should
> > > >it remove
> > > > > the filter?
> > > > >
> > > > > 	What do folks think?
> > >
> > >
> > > 
_________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@e...
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: 
http://mobile.msn.com
5967

From: Steve O.  <misterclean1@e...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:12am
Subject: Shadowlink

 
I downloaded Shadowlink.  Unzipping it I find two Palm files, one for
ShadowLink and the other for ShadowlinkOS30.

What does that mean?  WHich one do I use?

Thanks!
5968

From: Ralph Alvy  <ralvy@c...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:44am
Subject: Re: Shadowlink

 
Steve O. wrote:
>  
> I downloaded Shadowlink.  Unzipping it I find two Palm files, one for
> ShadowLink and the other for ShadowlinkOS30.
> 
> What does that mean?  WHich one do I use?

There are two versions: shadlinkOS30.prc is for handheld devices running 
PalmOS 3.0 and up; shadlink.prc is for handheld devices running PalmOS 
3.1 and up. I created two versions because certain functions, if made to 
work for PalmOS 3.0, increase the code size to 9K. The version that 
works only with PalmOS 3.1 and up is only 3K. So unless you have PalmOS 
3.0, install the regular version and keep the size slim.

-- 
Ralph Alvy
ralvy@c...
5969

From: Ralph Alvy  <ralvy@c...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:52am
Subject: Re: Shadowlink

 
Ralph Alvy wrote:
>  
> Steve O. wrote:
> 
>> 
>>I downloaded Shadowlink.  Unzipping it I find two Palm files, one for
>>ShadowLink and the other for ShadowlinkOS30.
>>
>>What does that mean?  WHich one do I use?
> 
> 
> There are two versions: shadlinkOS30.prc is for handheld devices running 
> PalmOS 3.0 and up; shadlink.prc is for handheld devices running PalmOS 
> 3.1 and up. I created two versions because certain functions, if made to 
> work for PalmOS 3.0, increase the code size to 9K. The version that 
> works only with PalmOS 3.1 and up is only 3K. So unless you have PalmOS 
> 3.0, install the regular version and keep the size slim.
> 

I accidentally deleted the line that mentioned the above was taken from 
the .htm file that was included in the downloaded zip file.

-- 
Ralph Alvy
ralvy@c...
5970

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:37am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>

> I don't want to get to too much "magic"; if you go to a saved
> view that has no filter, you toss the filter. Going to a built in view,
> which by definition have no filters, should then also toss out the filter,
> for consistency.
>
Oh *please* don't do that.  I like to have a filter applied, then hop
between different built-in and saved views to do things.  Like I would
filtered on the unchecked items, then change to Flat to link to ToDos, then
to worksheet for tag assignments, then to tasklist to check progress.  You
get the idea, so please don't mess with my applied filtering.

To always remove any filters when going to a saved view, you can check
'Filter' within the saved view, and have the Filter set to 'All'.  So, if
the 'Filter' box is checked in saved view, you always apply the filter, and
applying the 'All' filter will effectively remove any existing filter you
have on the list.  If the 'Filter' box is unchecked, you don't mess with
filters and keep whatever filtering the list is in.  Makes sense??

Ling
5971

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:50am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
From: "llgriffll" <keith@t...>

> Wow...I can see where you are coming from too. Him, perhaps a
> specific "Filterless" option per view. If you switch to a view with
> this option set, any filter gets removed...otherwise last filter
> applied stays, until it hits a Filterless, or a different Filter.
>
You can achieve your 'Filterless' option by checking 'Filter' and setting
the filter to 'All'.

> To make things consistent he'd really need to have filters removed
> if there is no filter in a view...but that's the logic side of me
> speaking...
>
...unless you see not checking the 'Filter' checkbox as a don't care
condition, in which case it should definitely not mess with any filtering
already applied.

> Good luck deciding this one Jeff ;-)
>
please don't change the existing behavior..beg, beg, beg.

Ling
5972

From: tarasofsky  <Tarasofsky@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 8:06am
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
> 	I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should it 
remove
> the filter?
> 
> 	What do folks think?

I vote for removing the filter.

Richard
5973

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 8:52am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
From: "tarasofsky" <Tarasofsky@t...>


> > I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> > enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. should it
> remove
> > the filter?
> >
> > What do folks think?
>
> I vote for removing the filter.
>
> Richard
>

To me, it would make saved views really annoying, always messing up my
current filter.  If I really wanted a particular saved view to always show
everything (no filtering), then I would check the 'Filter' checkbox and set
filter to 'All'.  When I don't want the saved view to mess with my current
filter, I leave the 'Filter' box unchecked.

So please don't change the existing behavior regarding saved views and
filtering.

Ling
5974

From: stugib_2000  <stuart.gibbons@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:18am
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Russ & Ling" <rnlnero@y...> wrote:
> From: "tarasofsky" <Tarasofsky@t...>
> 
> 
> > > I guess its an opinion call. Changing to a view with a filter
> > > enables the filter. Changing to a view without a filter.. 
should it
> > remove
> > > the filter?
> > >
> > > What do folks think?
> >
> > I vote for removing the filter.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> 
> To me, it would make saved views really annoying, always messing up 
my
> current filter.  If I really wanted a particular saved view to 
always show
> everything (no filtering), then I would check the 'Filter' checkbox 
and set
> filter to 'All'.  When I don't want the saved view to mess with my 
current
> filter, I leave the 'Filter' box unchecked.
> 
> So please don't change the existing behavior regarding saved views 
and
> filtering.
> 
> Ling


I've argued for removing the filter in my original feedback, but 
Ling, you've started to convince me! The All option is a good 
solution.  

What do you (and Jeff) think about the built-in views having an 
associated filter?  If I choose a saved view, say "All John's overdue 
tasks", and then go back to Checklist, I'd like the option of being 
able to go back to showing the whole list (i.e. applying the All 
filter).  Following your idea, if the built-in view doesn't have an 
associated filter, it leaves the list as it is (John's overdue tasks) 
but in the Checklist etc format?  No problem.

I know its only two clicks to remove the filter [Jeff :-) ] but this 
behaviour seems more consistent, rather than 'choosing a filter in a 
view applies it, if there is no filter defined the current filter is 
used, EXCEPT in the built-in views where the current filter is always 
left'.

Thoughts?

Stuart
5975

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 10:43am
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
----- Original Message -----
From: "stugib_2000" <stuart.gibbons@p...>

> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Russ & Ling" <rnlnero@y...> wrote:

> > To me, it would make saved views really annoying, always messing up
> my
> > current filter.  If I really wanted a particular saved view to
> always show
> > everything (no filtering), then I would check the 'Filter' checkbox
> and set
> > filter to 'All'.  When I don't want the saved view to mess with my
> current
> > filter, I leave the 'Filter' box unchecked.
> >
> > So please don't change the existing behavior regarding saved views
> and
> > filtering.
> >
> > Ling
>
>
> I've argued for removing the filter in my original feedback, but
> Ling, you've started to convince me! The All option is a good
> solution.
>
> What do you (and Jeff) think about the built-in views having an
> associated filter?  If I choose a saved view, say "All John's overdue
> tasks", and then go back to Checklist, I'd like the option of being
> able to go back to showing the whole list (i.e. applying the All
> filter).  Following your idea, if the built-in view doesn't have an
> associated filter, it leaves the list as it is (John's overdue tasks)
> but in the Checklist etc format?  No problem.
>

Having an associated filter to the built-in views would make them built-in
*saved* views. (Is it just me, or is all the talk about views rather
semantically rube goldberg-ish? Anyway...) It has appeals, and doesn't
change the existing behavior.  But when you start letting users customize
the built-in views, suddenly the 'Checklist' isn't what it used to be...and
before you know it, we'll see posts in this forum asking 'I change the view
to Checklist but I don't see the box?'  I think the
two-taps-to-remove-filter solution is the best all around.

> I know its only two clicks to remove the filter [Jeff :-) ] but this
> behaviour seems more consistent, rather than 'choosing a filter in a
> view applies it, if there is no filter defined the current filter is
> used, EXCEPT in the built-in views where the current filter is always
> left'.
>

You lost me there.  "if there is no filter defined the current filter is
used" and "the built-in views where the current filter is always left" say
the same thing to me, since there *is* no filter defined for the built-in
views.

Ling
5976

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 0:48pm
Subject: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Perhaps it's best for you...the two-taps-to-remove option...but 
there is also a two-taps-to-apply option. Say you get into a view 
without a filter, so it removed the previous filter...just two taps 
and the filter comes back.

I understand you ALL in a filter comments from previous messages. I 
just have a problem with it. It's a work around...a kludge to make 
Shadow do what it should in the first place.

I think the best solution is a checkbox within a view called "Remove 
Filter on Apply" or some such. It's obvious what that would 
do...it's not a work around...it'd satisfy many.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Russ & Ling" <rnlnero@y...> wrote:
> > 
> Having an associated filter to the built-in views would make them 
built-in
> *saved* views. (Is it just me, or is all the talk about views 
rather
> semantically rube goldberg-ish? Anyway...) It has appeals, and 
doesn't
> change the existing behavior.  But when you start letting users 
customize
> the built-in views, suddenly the 'Checklist' isn't what it used to 
be...and
> before you know it, we'll see posts in this forum asking 'I change 
the view
> to Checklist but I don't see the box?'  I think the
> two-taps-to-remove-filter solution is the best all around.
>
5977

From: Michael Heintz  <mkheintz@e...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 1:25pm
Subject: RE: ShadowLink

 
>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:12:51 -0700
>From: "Steve O." <misterclean1@e...>
>Subject: Shadowlink
>
>I downloaded Shadowlink.  Unzipping it I find two Palm files, one for
>ShadowLink and the other for ShadowlinkOS30.
>
>What does that mean?  WHich one do I use?

There should be a third file called Shadlink.htm which tells you how to use
it.

shadlink.prc is for OS 3.1 and up

shadlinkOS30.prc is for OS 3.0 and up (but if you have OS 3.1 and higher use
shadlink.prc because it takes up less memory).

Mike
5978

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
From: "llgriffll" <keith@t...>

> Perhaps it's best for you...the two-taps-to-remove option...but
> there is also a two-taps-to-apply option. Say you get into a view
> without a filter, so it removed the previous filter...just two taps
> and the filter comes back.
>

Hey, you're right.  I forgot about the previous filter feature.

> I understand you ALL in a filter comments from previous messages. I
> just have a problem with it. It's a work around...a kludge to make
> Shadow do what it should in the first place.
>

I thought we *are* debating what Shadow should do in the first place :)
With built-in views, Shadow's established behavior is not to remove your
current filter.

Part of my concern is if you remove the current filter when switching to a
saved view without a defined filter, then, for consistency, you'll have to
remove the current filter when switching to a built-in view, since there
isn't any filter associated with the built-in views.  That changes Shadow's
established behavior and what people have come to expect.  Then if you want
to be consistent and add associated filters to the built-in views, well,
that's just more work for little gain, in my opinion.

> I think the best solution is a checkbox within a view called "Remove
> Filter on Apply" or some such. It's obvious what that would
> do...it's not a work around...it'd satisfy many.
>

It takes one tap to check that new box.  It takes one tap to check the
'Filter' box now (since it defaults to 'All').  Both does the same thing and
neither would be a kludge.

I think our discussion's come to an action point.  Jeff, it's in your court.

Ling
5979

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:09pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > I'd like to be able to filter on a date range. One option would be to
> > filter on a relative offset from today:
> 
> 	We're intending on things like:
> 
> Last month
> Last week
> This week
> Yesterday
> Today
> Tomorrow
> Next week
> Next month
> 
> 	So do things like "show me events > last month" (which is
> everythign since the first of this month, say), or "show me stuff <
> today", etc.
> 

Not really, "Last Month" would referr to the previous month.  "This
Month" would refer to the beginning of this month through the end of
this month.  I run into explaining this to my manager all the time
with some automatically generated server log reports that are titled
"This Week", "Last WeeK", etc...

 - Jeramy
5980

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 2:14pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Anthony Schellenberg" <aschell2000@h...>
wrote:

> I'd like to suggest an additional one:  Next 7 days.  This is
different than 
> saying 'this week' or 'next week'.  

Which brings us back to the idea of an offset "X days from today"
concept.  I think ways of doing it are valid, the "This Week", "Last
Week" and "Next 7 Days" as presets, but the ability to look
forward/back "X" of days would be even better.

My 2 cents.

 - Jeramy
5981

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:44pm
Subject: Re: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Anthony Schellenberg wrote:

> >Last month
> >Last week
> >This week
> >Yesterday
> >Today
> >Tomorrow
> >Next week
> >Next month
> >
> >	So do things like "show me events > last month" (which is
> >everythign since the first of this month, say), or "show me stuff <
> >today", etc.
> 
> I'd like to suggest an additional one:  Next 7 days.  This is different than 
> saying 'this week' or 'next week'.  Say it's friday and you take a quick 
> look at 'this week' to make sure you've remembered everything, great.  Now 
> Sunday comes and you find out you forgot something big because it didn't 
> show in this week, but was rather in next week, even though it was only 2 
> days from friday.  This is just an example, but I know that this kind of 
> limitation has frustrated me a bit in some desktop apps.  Sometimes I just 
> want to know what's up in the next few days without having to check both 
> 'this week' and 'next week'.

	You would just define your filter to be:
	Target this week OR
	Target next week

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5982

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:59pm
Subject: ICONS WITH SHADOW....CAN THIS BE ENABLED...

 
Jeff, can this be enabled the ability to tag icons to lists would be 
cool even if their from the memo ones from dbk3
5983

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Anthony Schellenberg wrote:

> I like it that it keeps the filter.  It's easy enough to turn the filter 
> off, harder to go in and turn on the right filter if you want the same 
> filtering.  I like the ability to setup some views with no filters that will 
> then allow  me to quickly switch between various ways of looking at the same 
> data.  If filters were always removed then I'd have to set up a lot more 
> views.

	Perhaps we should leave it as is -- right now, the filter can have
the filter box checked or unchecked; when unchecked, no filter decision is
made. When checked, the filter is applied. One of the filter options is
"All", which is "No Filter" in other words. So you already have the
ability to specify that a view should apply no-filter, or a filter, or
ignore whatever is there.

	Perhaps I should change it so instead of "All" is shows "No
Filter"?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5984

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:20pm
Subject: Re: Shadowlink

 
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Steve O. wrote:

> I downloaded Shadowlink.  Unzipping it I find two Palm files, one for
> ShadowLink and the other for ShadowlinkOS30.
> 
> What does that mean?  WHich one do I use?
> 
> Thanks!

	Theres also a manual ;)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5985

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Russ & Ling wrote:

> Having an associated filter to the built-in views would make them built-in
> *saved* views. (Is it just me, or is all the talk about views rather
> semantically rube goldberg-ish? Anyway...) It has appeals, and doesn't
> change the existing behavior.  But when you start letting users customize
> the built-in views, suddenly the 'Checklist' isn't what it used to be...and
> before you know it, we'll see posts in this forum asking 'I change the view
> to Checklist but I don't see the box?'  I think the
> two-taps-to-remove-filter solution is the best all around.

	Yep; I'll never let someone change the built in views; even
deleting them is a bad idea.. just causes too much confusion. (ie: Unless
you can operate in newbie and oldbie modes, but we can't get into that
withotu bloating like crazy)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5986

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Russ & Ling wrote:

> I think our discussion's come to an action point.  Jeff, it's in your court.

	I think changing between built in views must keep the filter; its
always been that way, and its usefull. Likewise, changing to a built-in
from a saved.. might as well keep the filter. But changing to or between
saved views can have the behaviour as defined in your filter/checkbox
view details. So the behaviour we already have is "correct", if not
perfect for everyone.

	(Lots of worms in this can, hu? ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5987

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, fiatspider72 wrote:

> > I'd like to suggest an additional one:  Next 7 days.  This is
> different than 
> > saying 'this week' or 'next week'.  
> 
> Which brings us back to the idea of an offset "X days from today"
> concept.  I think ways of doing it are valid, the "This Week", "Last
> Week" and "Next 7 Days" as presets, but the ability to look
> forward/back "X" of days would be even better.

	Its tempting but I'm not convinced; ie: Filters can do OR's, so
its easy to build a filter for "this week OR last week", and see what you
need to see. Having "next X days", where X is 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or whatever,
isn't useful.. 99% of the time you'd put next 7 right? (I assume ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5988

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:29pm
Subject: Re: ICONS WITH SHADOW....CAN THIS BE ENABLED...

 
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:

> Jeff, can this be enabled the ability to tag icons to lists would be 
> cool even if their from the memo ones from dbk3 

	Icons will go in at some time; but I need to do some desktop work
first. (ie: I can go forever doing handheld stuff, but we need to do the
desktop.) Some apps get off easy and just use Palm Desktop.. but Shadow
users must use Shadow Desktop, and we can't ignore those people that both
need it, and we cannot forget, paid for it, and thus fund all this
handheld development :)

	I intend on adding icons support to items, as well as to tags, so
that items with tags can inherit icons associated to the tag. That'll be
fun :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5989

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:46pm
Subject: thanks Jeff: Re: ICONS WITH SHADOW....CAN THIS BE ENABLED...

 
Yeah no doubt you're right, I rather have a fully functional desktop 
before icons, when it does happen its going to be great..
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, jledesma28 wrote:
> 
> > Jeff, can this be enabled the ability to tag icons to lists would 
be 
> > cool even if their from the memo ones from dbk3 
> 
> 	Icons will go in at some time; but I need to do some desktop 
work
> first. (ie: I can go forever doing handheld stuff, but we need to 
do the
> desktop.) Some apps get off easy and just use Palm Desktop.. but 
Shadow
> users must use Shadow Desktop, and we can't ignore those people 
that both
> need it, and we cannot forget, paid for it, and thus fund all this
> handheld development :)
> 
> 	I intend on adding icons support to items, as well as to 
tags, so
> that items with tags can inherit icons associated to the tag. 
That'll be
> fun :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5990

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:48pm
Subject: Fonts size 14

 
Does anyone know where I can get a size 14 font, I currently use 
Lubak's Handera 16B and its cool but I think I'd rather have a size 
14B instead, any suggestions would be appreciated...
5991

From: smasters@a...
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:58pm
Subject: Re: Fonts size 14

 
I haven't seen anything smaller than the 16pt. For Shadow, you can go to
mixed-res and get a smaller font. I have trouble with FontHack not
recognizing what app I'm in, for instance anytime I used Piki to open
Shadow, instead of using my FontHack fonts it used the std font. So I
changed Shadow to mixed res and use the bold font as my normal, and I
really do like the way it looks now. Hope this helps.

Scott

Does anyone know where I can get a size 14 font, I currently use
Lubak's Handera 16B and its cool but I think I'd rather have a size
14B instead, any suggestions would be appreciated...





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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
5992

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:02pm
Subject: Scott & Piki

 
Scott can you briefly explain how you work with Piki, I've heard so 
much about it but I'm still at a loss, I can't get, why would one 
need that if for ie. one uses Powerjog and it launches DA's anyway, 
can you elaborate on this.

thanks
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., smasters@a... wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anything smaller than the 16pt. For Shadow, you can 
go to
> mixed-res and get a smaller font. I have trouble with FontHack not
> recognizing what app I'm in, for instance anytime I used Piki to 
open
> Shadow, instead of using my FontHack fonts it used the std font. So 
I
> changed Shadow to mixed res and use the bold font as my normal, and 
I
> really do like the way it looks now. Hope this helps.
> 
> Scott
> 
> Does anyone know where I can get a size 14 font, I currently use
> Lubak's Handera 16B and its cool but I think I'd rather have a size
> 14B instead, any suggestions would be appreciated...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@e...
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
5993

From: fiatspider72  <jphillips@p...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:19pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Its tempting but I'm not convinced; ie: Filters can do OR's, so
> its easy to build a filter for "this week OR last week", and see
what you
> need to see. Having "next X days", where X is 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or whatever,
> isn't useful.. 99% of the time you'd put next 7 right? (I assume ;)
> 
> 		jeff

Actually, I wasn't thinking in that short of term.  More along the
lines of  using the numbers 10, 14, 30 (which is covered), 45, 90, etc...

 - Jeramy
5994

From: smasters@a...
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:34pm
Subject: Re: Scott & Piki

 
jledesma28 wrote:

Scott can you briefly explain how you work with Piki, I've heard so
much about it but I'm still at a loss, I can't get, why would one
need that if for ie. one uses Powerjog and it launches DA's anyway,
can you elaborate on this.


I haven't tried PowerJog yet, is it worth $15.00? You might be able to
launch Piki with it rather than EasyLaunch (freeware that comes with
MegaWiki) which does sound cool.

What Piki does is bring up a list of all Shadow files and you can choose
the file to open. So instead of just opening Shadow and looking for the
file, no matter what app I have open, or how long it's been since I opened
Shadow, or what file I had open the last time I was in Shadow I can jump to
the file of my choice. It makes me more comfortable with Shadow and getting
to all my project lists. If this interests you, I'd be happy to help get it
working for you. You can also use Piki to organize the way you get to
memo's too, being able to jump into different categories and keyword lists
and the like.

Scott
5995

From: jledesma28  <jledesma28@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Scott & Piki

 
Scott that would great, you don't understand how frustrating it has 
been for me dealing with MW although I've done the basic, from what 
you explained from PIKI I would totally want to have a similar setup 
as yours. if you want to take out of the thread my email is 
dmd1272@h... and I look forward to hearing from you. thanks 
again I appreciate it very much.... btw PowerJog is cool and I've 
seen Piki in my list of DA's so I'm guessing one can launch it from 
there as well..


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., smasters@a... wrote:
> 
> jledesma28 wrote:
> 
> Scott can you briefly explain how you work with Piki, I've heard so
> much about it but I'm still at a loss, I can't get, why would one
> need that if for ie. one uses Powerjog and it launches DA's anyway,
> can you elaborate on this.
> 
> 
> I haven't tried PowerJog yet, is it worth $15.00? You might be able 
to
> launch Piki with it rather than EasyLaunch (freeware that comes with
> MegaWiki) which does sound cool.
> 
> What Piki does is bring up a list of all Shadow files and you can 
choose
> the file to open. So instead of just opening Shadow and looking for 
the
> file, no matter what app I have open, or how long it's been since I 
opened
> Shadow, or what file I had open the last time I was in Shadow I can 
jump to
> the file of my choice. It makes me more comfortable with Shadow and 
getting
> to all my project lists. If this interests you, I'd be happy to 
help get it
> working for you. You can also use Piki to organize the way you get 
to
> memo's too, being able to jump into different categories and 
keyword lists
> and the like.
> 
> Scott
5996

From: kcnaylor  <kencn@a...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:21pm
Subject: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
Jeff,

Let me just add a vote for this approach to weighting tasks.  This 
would come in very handy and would (now that tags are here) take care 
of most of the things I had wanted a custom field for.  I could 
imagine using the weighting field a variety of ways so allowing the 
numbers to be defined somewhat arbitrarily would be good.  I could 
see using it to represent effort in the abstract, or, more 
specifically, days, hours, minutes, dollars - what have you. Allowing 
the weighting field to be displayed on each item as well as the 
totaled value at that parent levels would be very handy.  Of course 
filtering on it would be useful also.

One simple example of how I'd use it in a way that's not strictly 
wieghting: I plan a day-long briefing for a customer and structure 
the agenda in Shadow.  I tag each topic or subtopic with the 
assigned speaker and use the weighting field to represent minutes 
alloted to that topic. I can track time alloted to each section as 
topics are added to that section or time allotments are changed.  
Nothing fancy but would be useful for me on a pretty regular basis.

Anyway, know you neck deep in other things now but just wanted to 
cast my vote for this feature.  Like tags, I think it would lend 
itself to a lot of creative uses.

Ken

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> To me, I'd like to just let you pick between 1 and 250 (say), and
> then display in a column. Really, it'd be like a glorified priority
> column. If thats what everyone needs, I can build it in a day or 
two :P
>
5997

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 0:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Using shadow as a lightweight project manager...

 
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, kcnaylor wrote:

> Let me just add a vote for this approach to weighting tasks.  This 
> would come in very handy and would (now that tags are here) take care 
> of most of the things I had wanted a custom field for.  I could 
> imagine using the weighting field a variety of ways so allowing the 
> numbers to be defined somewhat arbitrarily would be good.  I could 

	I don't wish to use an edit-field for the weightings; I'm
imagining a popup list of say 0-10, and a "Enter" option, which summons an
edit field to let you put in an arbitrary number (up to 250).

> see using it to represent effort in the abstract, or, more 
> specifically, days, hours, minutes, dollars - what have you. Allowing 
> the weighting field to be displayed on each item as well as the 
> totaled value at that parent levels would be very handy.  Of course 
> filtering on it would be useful also.

	Course; filtering on numbers is already in (ie: priority) :)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
5998

From: Michael Rudnick  <egroups@R...>
Date: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:46pm
Subject: Re:2.2.10 BETA; need input.

 
Jeff,

Based on the comments, I think you should keep the existing
functionality. I *do* recommend that you change the description of the
checkbox so it's clear that unchecked keeps the filter and checked
allows a specific filter or no filter.
--
Michael Rudnick                         
egroups@r...

Thursday, June 20, 2002, 2:19:52 PM, you wrote:
JM> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Anthony Schellenberg wrote:

>> I like it that it keeps the filter.  It's easy enough to turn the filter 
>> off, harder to go in and turn on the right filter if you want the same 
>> filtering.  I like the ability to setup some views with no filters that will 
>> then allow  me to quickly switch between various ways of looking at the same 
>> data.  If filters were always removed then I'd have to set up a lot more 
>> views.

JM>       Perhaps we should leave it as is -- right now, the filter can have
JM> the filter box checked or unchecked; when unchecked, no filter decision is
JM> made. When checked, the filter is applied. One of the filter options is
JM> "All", which is "No Filter" in other words. So you already have the
JM> ability to specify that a view should apply no-filter, or a filter, or
JM> ignore whatever is there.

JM>       Perhaps I should change it so instead of "All" is shows "No
JM> Filter"?

JM>             jeff

JM> --
JM> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
JM> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
JM> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
JM> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


JM> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
JM> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



JM> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
5999

From: alan_j_macdougall  <dubh@c...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:09am
Subject: Re: quick functionality suggestion

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "jasonkjennings" <jason@m...> wrote:
> I have a palm keyboard and from the items details screen I can hit
> Fn-, which takes you to the notes screen. 

Thanks!  This works on *my* Palm Portable keyboard too, although it 
probably doesn't work on all keyboards, hence the need for a Cmd-key 
equivalent.

> My question is this, if you're in the outline, what's the keyboard 
> shortcut for getting to the details screen? 

IF you are using the Palm Portable keyboard, AND you have the 
graphical button bar turned off then you can use the Fn-right arrow 
key combo to go from the Outline to the Details screen. But you 
probably have already worked this out.  Again, we really need a Cmd-
key equivalent for this too.

later

Alan
6000

From: Nancy  <wdw84@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 21, 2002 3:31am
Subject: Datebook category support?

 
Is there any way to specify a datebook category for linked items like you
can for to-do's?  If not, is there any possibility of this in the future?

Nancy
*Willing to do any amount of begging and groveling you deem appropriate,
Jeff  ;-) *
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