From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 7:11pm
Subject: ShadowLink 1.0b2 BETA available

This version fixes the TxtMgr.c Null String bug.

www.geocities.com/rnlnero/shadlink10b2.zip

Hopefully I've slayed all the dragons.  Thanks for testing and reporting the
bugs!

Ling

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 8:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow Plan 2.2.5 BETA available

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, rvanderwoning wrote:

> > 	Major changes:
> > 	o Customizable and savable filters are in.
> 
> I have the option "ascending priority is 5-4-3-2-1" checked so when I 
> define a filter as "priority > 3", I expect to see items with 
> priorities 2 and 1. However, Shadow lists items with priorities 4 and 

	Its literal; the ascendancy order isn't relevant to custom
filters. The built in filters go by "high" and "low", and care about
ascendancy as a result. But for custom filters, its literal. So if you
want to find pri1, use < 3. Perhaps I need to document this better in the
app, but I will try and remember it in the Reference Guide when I get to
it (and in the USer Guide, as I hope to eventually write one :)

> 5. I find this confusing. Sure, I could check "Reversed" in the filter
> definition, but that would mean that I have to keep this preference in
> multiple locations: once in the main preferences, and once for every
> priority filter I define. Also, if I do check "Reversed", the filter
> is defined as "Priority ! greater than 3" which would include
> priorities 3, 2 and 1 instead of just 2 and 1.

	Right. So use less than or less than equal to, as appropriate :)

> > 	o Details screen now shows prio/progress regardless of view 
> type
> 
> If prio is not included in the main view and I summon up the details 
> dialog for an item, it always shows "-", regardless of the prio 
> assigned to that task.

	Yep, looks like I goofed. I'll be fixing it for the alpha going
out sunday or monday in shadow-test. Thanks for catching me :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 8:40pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Plan 2.2.5 BETA available

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Ken Smith wrote:

> I just wanted to jump in an give you my kudos' on the first cut at the
> custom filters.  They are outstanding and were certainly worth the
> wait.

	Thanks. If you come up with any neat filters that others could
use, let everyone know or post in shadow-tips. The full release will
include case insensitive title substring matches and other handy filters.
Or join into the alphas if you like.

> Looking forward to the tags.  I have created my own version with
> pedit's magipad and a list of key words.  It is very antiquated, but
> it has provided me with a key word filter using Databk5.  I can
> already see being able to filter items that are @Home/+Outside (so I
> can reschedule them until next weekend).  I am trying to get the GtD
> thing going.  Shadow and tags will make the GtD concept easier for me
> to work with.

	Yep; I've not completed tags yet, but an alpha in a couple days
will have them. Current system lets you have any number of tags defined,
and any number attached to an item. Once I add custom filter support for
them, you'll be able to filter on tag. Should be exactly what GtD needs.

> It is interesting however, that the additional custom filter
> functionality is leading me to consider putting my multiple todo lists
> into one list.  I noticed that someone else mentioned this in the
> group earlier.  Though I do think that I will have more "types" of
> lists and will probably find more uses for Shadow as I play with the
> tags.

	I don't think moving everything into one big list is a good
idea; its the "all eggs in one basket" problem; handy for one thing, bad
for others. Certainly, bringing related lists together, and building new
relations with tags is cool, but don't put *everything* together.. thats
not what tags are about :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 8:40pm
Subject: Re: New Filters Thoughts...

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, nscroggins wrote:

> First let me say that the new filters has me thinking of new ways to
> use Shadow.  Great work!!  However, is it possible to include a filter
> for links to the AddressDB?  Typically, I assign a contact link to
> task items in a outline.  I would like to filter the outline for
> specific 'linked' contacts.  Is this something you would consider?

	Keep twisting my arm and we'll see. I was not expecting to do so,
but it does seem like folks want it, so I'm thinking about it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:01pm
Subject: Re: New Filters Thoughts...

Please Please Please Please Please!

This is what I've been begging for since I first got
to know my shadow!  

(twist, twist)

Quoting Jeff Mitchell (support@s...):
> On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, nscroggins wrote:
> 
> > First let me say that the new filters has me thinking of new ways to
> > use Shadow.  Great work!!  However, is it possible to include a filter
> > for links to the AddressDB?  Typically, I assign a contact link to
> > task items in a outline.  I would like to filter the outline for
> > specific 'linked' contacts.  Is this something you would consider?
> 
> 	Keep twisting my arm and we'll see. I was not expecting to do so,
> but it does seem like folks want it, so I'm thinking about it.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:17pm
Subject: Re: New Filters Thoughts...

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Learned wrote:

> Please Please Please Please Please!
> 
> This is what I've been begging for since I first got
> to know my shadow!  
> 
> (twist, twist)

	heh. Just use tags instead, and link your tags to Address Book
entries :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: smasters@a...
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:33pm
Subject: Re: New Filters Thoughts...

What about an "import and link" utility that imports all your address book
names as tags and automatically sets the link. Would that be an acceptable
solution for everyone?

Scott


                                                                                                                   
                    Jeff Mitchell                                                                                  
                    <support@s...        To:     shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com                                    
                    eton.org>            cc:                                                                       
                                         Subject:     Re: [shadow-discuss] New Filters Thoughts...                 
                    06/07/2002                                                                                     
                    04:17 PM                                                                                       
                    Please                                                                                         
                    respond to                                                                                     
                    shadow-discus                                                                                  
                    s                                                                                              
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   




On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Learned wrote:

> Please Please Please Please Please!
>
> This is what I've been begging for since I first got
> to know my shadow!
>
> (twist, twist)

           heh. Just use tags instead, and link your tags to Address Book
entries :)

                     jeff

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:35pm
Subject: RE: New Filters Thoughts...

Isn't that more complicated than simply being able to filter by address
link??

Jen

-------------
PocketGoddess
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 

	heh. Just use tags instead, and link your tags to Address Book
entries :)

		jeff

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:38pm
Subject: RE: New Filters Thoughts...

That sounds interesting. Tell me a little more. I know I want tags, but
I'm not exactly sure what they do. . .

: )

Jen

-------------
PocketGoddess
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!


-----Original Message-----
From: smasters@a... [mailto:smasters@a...] 
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:34 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] New Filters Thoughts...


What about an "import and link" utility that imports all your address
book
names as tags and automatically sets the link. Would that be an
acceptable
solution for everyone?

Scott

From: smasters@a...
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:51pm
Subject: RE: New Filters Thoughts...

And how about an option to append the tags to the ToDo note? Then if the
tag(s) is also a MegaWiki link you could bounce from the ToDo to the Shadow
item (using ShadowLinkHack of course), or use the tag to jump to the
address book record. Wow, I think I'm scaring myself.

Scott

From: nscroggins  <sjpanther01@h...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 11:02pm
Subject: Re: New Filters Thoughts...

Jeff and Jen:

This was my thought too.  Tags may be another way, but a simple 
filter is much simpler for this kind of thing.

Norman



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "PocketGoddess" <jen@p...> wrote:
> Isn't that more complicated than simply being able to filter by 
address
> link??
> 
> Jen
> 
> -------------
> PocketGoddess
> http://www.pocketgoddess.com
> 98% Palm OS, 100% Fun!
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
> 
> 	heh. Just use tags instead, and link your tags to Address Book
> entries :)
> 
> 		jeff

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 11:27pm
Subject: RE: New Filters Thoughts...

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, PocketGoddess wrote:

> Isn't that more complicated than simply being able to filter by address
> link??

	Its certainly higher load on tags.. if you import 1000 addresses
as tags, you'll kill performance of tags for sure ;)  I think I'd rather
allow filtering on addresses ;)

	Importing does show an interesting desire though..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 11:28pm
Subject: RE: New Filters Thoughts...

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 smasters@a... wrote:

> And how about an option to append the tags to the ToDo note? Then if the
> tag(s) is also a MegaWiki link you could bounce from the ToDo to the Shadow
> item (using ShadowLinkHack of course), or use the tag to jump to the
> address book record. Wow, I think I'm scaring myself.

	Good lord. You're going to hurt someone ;)

	Its possible. Bug me in a few days. Brain full :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 3:08am
Subject: PalmGear

Please skip unless you're an activist, or interested in Palm
developer business, or insane ;)

	Go read http://www.palminfocenter.com if you want to know whats
going on in Palm developers worlds right now..

	Anyone have any ideas?

	PalmGear owes me and other developers a lot of money (essentially,
the last 4 months of buyers have gotten their Shadows, and PalmGear got my
money, but I haven't gotten a dime). Little guys who don't depend on it
get crushed, and we who do depend on it.. go out of business or limp by. I
limped by. Obviously PG must be on the verge of bankruptcy that they can't
pay the developers, so they're trying to "waive" their owed pay and start
fresh (without asking if this is okay, when its obviously of dubious
legality and is putting a lot of developers out of business).

	My options are simple:

	1) I will finish the simple webstore I was building, so people can
buy from my own store. I'm assuming this will be minor sales, since most
people find and buy Palm OS software at PalmGear..

	2) Should I pull out of PalmGear, or continue to support them?
Keeping my stuff there means I may get something, but they also likely
continue to keep my money and dribble it out :/ Pulling out means I keep
future money, but they go out of business if everyone bails...

	Complex questions. Anyone have informed opinions?

	I like PG. They're good folks, and have always tried to be on
"our" side. But really, they're essentially telling the developers (again)
that we're going to lose 1/3rd of a years pay (including the Xmas season,
which is the big season for us :/)

	Sigh. 

	Fear not, I'm not on the rocks, but they really set me back the
last few months and made it rough :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Arthur Vanderbilt  <aavanderbilt@y...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 3:24am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

This is exceeding lame.  I've been in similar
situations and what it means is that they are spending
money that doesn't belong to them.  Unless they come
up with a whole bunch of money they may well be
doomed.

It is a bad dilema for you.  I wish I had some ideas.

> Anyone have any ideas?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 3:40am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

I would think it all depends on whatever contract you signed with 
them to begin selling. Just because they have decided on a new 
policy does not mean it holds any legal worth. You should look at 
the contract and see what it says, maybe go after them in court. 

What the have done is taken an interest free loan on the backs of 
the Palm development community. It is a shame that they have such 
poor business practices, but it doesn't make them any less 
responsible to you.

I don't know the amount they owe you, so it's tough to advise on 
what to do. Were it me I would continue with them for a couple 
months to see if they do honor their new policy. At least then you 
would get current sales, and would be considered more a priority 
payment on previous sales.



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Please skip unless you're an activist, or interested in Palm
> developer business, or insane ;)
> 
> 	Go read http://www.palminfocenter.com if you want to know 
whats
> going on in Palm developers worlds right now..
> 
> 	Anyone have any ideas?
> 
> 	PalmGear owes me and other developers a lot of money 
(essentially,
> the last 4 months of buyers have gotten their Shadows, and 
PalmGear got my
> money, but I haven't gotten a dime). Little guys who don't depend 
on it
> get crushed, and we who do depend on it.. go out of business or 
limp by. I
> limped by. Obviously PG must be on the verge of bankruptcy that 
they can't
> pay the developers, so they're trying to "waive" their owed pay 
and start
> fresh (without asking if this is okay, when its obviously of 
dubious
> legality and is putting a lot of developers out of business).
> 
> 	My options are simple:
> 
> 	1) I will finish the simple webstore I was building, so 
people can
> buy from my own store. I'm assuming this will be minor sales, 
since most
> people find and buy Palm OS software at PalmGear..
> 
> 	2) Should I pull out of PalmGear, or continue to support 
them?
> Keeping my stuff there means I may get something, but they also 
likely
> continue to keep my money and dribble it out :/ Pulling out means 
I keep
> future money, but they go out of business if everyone bails...
> 
> 	Complex questions. Anyone have informed opinions?
> 
> 	I like PG. They're good folks, and have always tried to be on
> "our" side. But really, they're essentially telling the developers 
(again)
> that we're going to lose 1/3rd of a years pay (including the Xmas 
season,
> which is the big season for us :/)
> 
> 	Sigh. 
> 
> 	Fear not, I'm not on the rocks, but they really set me back 
the
> last few months and made it rough :/
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 4:08am
Subject: RE: New Filters Thoughts...

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:27:57 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>I think I'd rather
>allow filtering on addresses ;)

Great Idea Jeff!  :)


-- 
220, 221 ... whatever it takes
learned@t... on 6/7/2002

From: William Franklin  <billf@t...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 6:17am
Subject: RE: Re: a few points, and some encouragement

I like it the way it is now. It's easy to get "next week" with two
clicks, but it would not be possible to just add one week or two weeks
if you changed it to mean from today.

Bill


   Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:40:12 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: a few points, and some encouragement

On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Kevin Giberson wrote:

> i too have notice item number one occur, and did not like that
> result...i also prefer one week from the today's date.  seems
> intuitive like the others...

	But then it is not useful for adding a week; ie: +1 week, if it
means, "=1 week from today", then its really "next week", right? And if
you want 3 weeks from now, how woudl you do it, withotu picking it
yourself?

	Perhaps I should change it to "Add one week", to be more clear?

		jeff

> kevin
> 
clip----

From: William Franklin  <billf@t...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 6:17am
Subject: RE: Re: Can one Filter by multiple parameters ?

To me, more useful would be to do something like Bonsai allows, where
you can set colors in preferences that change depending on how close to
the due date (or overdue). As the date gets closer the color changes to
remind you of urgency. I know, I should be better organized and not need
such a reminder, but I'm a bit scattered, and am more attuned to visual
cues than the abstract (to me) of seeing a date and then comparing
today's date (when I can remember it) and then subtracting the relative
difference, and then hoping that really registers in my brain to tell me
to get going on this before it's too late. 

But, still, things are a lot better than when I tried to keep up with
things on slips of paper, or notes in a small notebook that I either
lost of forgot to look at. Thanks for a good program.

Bill

   Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:04:07 +0100
   From: Steven Hill <mailing@s...>
Subject: Re: Can one Filter by multiple parameters ?

On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:39:00 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>    I don't have any filtering support where you can filter on 
colour,
>since colour is too easy to mes up (ie: When you pick a colour, you
>can pick from 50 reds or whatever.. hard to pick the exact right one
>all the time).

I'm also keen on this (colour filtering). To make it easier, how 
about limiting filtering to a selection of predefined colours 
(CMYRGB?). This would make it easier to pick the right colour. All 
colours would be able to be chosen - maybe have a More... button at 
the bottom of the picker to access the default picker (see TinySheet 
for an example of what I mean) - and this would mean that filtering 
could be done, without changing how it works now substantially.

>I may add icon support, in which case you can perhaps filter
>by icon at that time..

Woohoo!! Icons are another one of my long-term wishes. Hopefully, you 
intend on using the 'standard' icon databases as in Action Names and 
later versions of DateBk...?
-- 
Steven Hill, mailing@s... on 04/06/2002

From: Pat Galea  <pg@d...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 6:32am
Subject: Re: Linking to To-Dos

> The linking feature to the To-Do database is a great feature, BUT it
> should have the option of showing all the text in the various levels.
>
> For eg. if I have an item like this:
>
> Project 1
>    - Item 1
>       - Item 1.1
>
> Then it could show in the To-Do list as "Project 1-Item 1-Item 1.1"
>
> If not, one ends up with a lot of To-Do items that are the same, or
> you can't really tell which project/main level it comes from.

It does have this facility, for exactly the reason you mention!

Look in the global preferences (Help - Preferences). Hit Next twice. Click the
box "Append origin to ToDo note". Then your ToDo that says "Item1.1" will have
(in the note) [[Shadow:Project 1>Item 1]].

Regards, Pat Galea

From: kenclatham  <clatham1@t...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 7:45am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Please skip unless you're an activist, or interested in Palm
> developer business, or insane ;)
> 
> 	Go read http://www.palminfocenter.com if you want to know whats
> going on in Palm developers worlds right now..
> 
> 	Anyone have any ideas?
> 
<snip>

When it comes right down to it, if you don't have a contract... you
got just exactly what you agreed to, nothing.

Yes, its cruel, but without proof of agreement of some sort, they have
the right to pay on whatever schedule they choose.

Ever try collecting money from some credit cards?  60-90 days from
time of purchase, and longer if they feel they need to hold it.

I'll agree, any day of the week, that it s**ks.  You have to put aside
 your rightous indignation and look at the long term picture and do
what's best for the continuing existence and growth of your business.

What it really means is that your sales agent relationship will be
more costly.  Either in time to contractually barter with PG (or
whomever) or provide and promote your own.  Project the sales in all
scenarios and crunch the numbers.  Which holds the greatest profit?

PG *has* the users.. and hence the volume.  What's the cost of doing
business with them (and not just over the last 4 months).  What's the
cost of losing sales from Handango if you have to go exclusive with
PG?  Can you sell from your own site still?

Do the same with Handango...

Now project the sales from your own site, subtract costs and project
gross profit.

Subtract, which is greater?


Want a "user's" perspective?

I don't like Handango.  Disorganized, highly cluttered, slow...

Worst of all, they make the whole experience like a trip to local
software store.  Not enough information to know which to try first.
Its extremely difficult to tell what's popular, if not impossible. 
They want it to be a competition of sales blurbs.  He who spews the
best sh*t wins? Not in my book.

For example, I don't think I would have downloaded and tried DateBK4
if it hadn't been for the download counts on PG.  CESD is a great
programmer, but let's face it, his web design and "salemanship" skills
are somewhat lacking.  Do those matter to me?  H*ll no!

I picked SP out of the herd because the growth in your download
numbers was really different from the rest.  And, yes, I tried Bonsai
first (only to be sorely disappointed).

In short, the PG site is extremely geared to the user making his own
decision.  I *like* that.  Handango feels like a sales job.


As far as personal view on the PG "payment plan".  Yes, Kenney sc*wed
up.  He fell for a dirty ploy from his competitor and he zigged when
he should have zagged.  When will it be your turn?

Do you abandon someone who got in trouble and got desperate?  Yes, he
should have come clean a bit sooner, but at least he's trying to keep
the whole thing rolling.  Do you feel he truly will make it right in
the long run?

If you think he's learned his lesson (and he has yet to pay the full
price), take him back.  But, for pete's sake, get it in detail and in
writing this time!  Hold his hand to the fire a little.  A smart
businessman would take advantage of the situation and get a better
long term agreement.  Make the contract you sign pay you back over
time, *with interest*.  If he wants a loan, be a bank!

Ken

From: Kenneth S. Rhee  <polymath@m...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 8:24am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

I really sympathize with your situation.

I for one have found Palmgear supportive since its inception (that started with 1996).  If they are going to be prompt of their payment from now on, pay everything on time, then it would only benefits you by staying on.  Pulling out your program from Palmgear won't get your back payment sooner (unless you can use it as a threat to get a favorable back payment plan).

I believe supporting Palmgear or any other vendors besides Handango is a good thing for the Palm community, especially knowing what Handango has done in the past.  

To me the final question is "do we really want to have another Microsoft in Palm community?"

So, my advice is give them a few months and see what happens in the future.
--
 Kenneth S. Rhee, polymath@m... on 06/08/2002


On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 23:08:06 -0400 (EDT), Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>
>    Please skip unless you're an activist, or interested in Palm
>developer business, or insane ;)
>
>    Go read http://www.palminfocenter.com if you want to know whats
>going on in Palm developers worlds right now..
>
>    Anyone have any ideas?
>
>    PalmGear owes me and other developers a lot of money (essentially,
>the last 4 months of buyers have gotten their Shadows, and PalmGear
>got my money, but I haven't gotten a dime). Little guys who don't
>depend on it get crushed, and we who do depend on it.. go out of
>business or limp by. I limped by. Obviously PG must be on the verge
>of bankruptcy that they can't pay the developers, so they're trying
>to "waive" their owed pay and start fresh (without asking if this is
>okay, when its obviously of dubious legality and is putting a lot of
>developers out of business).
>
>    My options are simple:
>
>    1) I will finish the simple webstore I was building, so people can
>buy from my own store. I'm assuming this will be minor sales, since
>most people find and buy Palm OS software at PalmGear..
>
>    2) Should I pull out of PalmGear, or continue to support them?
>Keeping my stuff there means I may get something, but they also
>likely continue to keep my money and dribble it out :/ Pulling out
>means I keep future money, but they go out of business if everyone
>bails...
>
>    Complex questions. Anyone have informed opinions?
>
>    I like PG. They're good folks, and have always tried to be on "our"
>side. But really, they're essentially telling the developers (again)
>that we're going to lose 1/3rd of a years pay (including the Xmas
>season, which is the big season for us :/)
>
>    Sigh.
>
>    Fear not, I'm not on the rocks, but they really set me back the
>last few months and made it rough :/
>
>        jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own
>micro circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I
>mean, sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate
>he is?" -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: shadow-discuss-
>unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 10:16am
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

depending on the amount owed to you...
i would stay with them for future sales, your benefit and theirs, AND file an action (lawsuit) in one of the lower court jurisdictions that usually have less money at stake overall, allow less legal work to be done, and is usually less costly for all involved.  i think this makes a statement to them saying i will stay with you, but you also must be fair and pay me what you owe me as you made money off of my product and my work.  if they are smart, they would then work out a deal with you so all are happy, or you'll get a judgment against them and be able to collect, assuming they don't file for bankruptcy.  don't let them just walk away with your money, as it then reinforces they can steal from you and others without any repercussions!  they joined the game, now time to play by the rules!!!
my thoughts.
kevin


------------------------------
Enjoy life!
------------------------------
  --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
  > 
  >       Please skip unless you're an activist, or interested in Palm
  > developer business, or insane ;)
  > 
  >       Go read http://www.palminfocenter.com if you want to know 
  whats
  > going on in Palm developers worlds right now..
  > 
  >       Anyone have any ideas?
  > 
  >       PalmGear owes me and other developers a lot of money 
  (essentially,
  > the last 4 months of buyers have gotten their Shadows, and 
  PalmGear got my
  > money, but I haven't gotten a dime). Little guys who don't depend 
  on it
  > get crushed, and we who do depend on it.. go out of business or 
  limp by. I
  > limped by. Obviously PG must be on the verge of bankruptcy that 
  they can't
  > pay the developers, so they're trying to "waive" their owed pay 
  and start
  > fresh (without asking if this is okay, when its obviously of 
  dubious
  > legality and is putting a lot of developers out of business).
  > 
  >       My options are simple:
  > 
  >       1) I will finish the simple webstore I was building, so 
  people can
  > buy from my own store. I'm assuming this will be minor sales, 
  since most
  > people find and buy Palm OS software at PalmGear..
  > 
  >       2) Should I pull out of PalmGear, or continue to support 
  them?
  > Keeping my stuff there means I may get something, but they also 
  likely
  > continue to keep my money and dribble it out :/ Pulling out means 
  I keep
  > future money, but they go out of business if everyone bails...
  > 
  >       Complex questions. Anyone have informed opinions?
  > 
  >       I like PG. They're good folks, and have always tried to be on
  > "our" side. But really, they're essentially telling the developers 
  (again)
  > that we're going to lose 1/3rd of a years pay (including the Xmas 
  season,
  > which is the big season for us :/)
  > 
  >       Sigh. 
  > 
  >       Fear not, I'm not on the rocks, but they really set me back 
  the
  > last few months and made it rough :/
  > 
  >             jeff
  > 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 1:08pm
Subject: Re: Linking to To-Dos

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, hanlk wrote:

> The linking feature to the To-Do database is a great feature, BUT it 
> should have the option of showing all the text in the various levels.
> 
> For eg. if I have an item like this:
> 
> Project 1
>    - Item 1
>       - Item 1.1
> 
> Then it could show in the To-Do list as "Project 1-Item 1-Item 1.1"

	The ToDo database is limited; A shadow item can be any depth (so
would overflow ToDo's limits), and can be longer than a ToDo
(overflowing). Also, the question of what to do when you modify that
ToDo.. (ie: Change one of the parent texts? Ignore the change, or move the
Shadow item?)

	Instead, there is an option in the List preferences (under global
preferences), to let you ask for an "origin stamp". Shadow then puts a
clipping of the parent hierarchy into the ToDo's note, so you can get
context when you need it. (And there are some cool Hacks to let you jump
bnack into Shadow, based on this information)

> If not, one ends up with a lot of To-Do items that are the same, or 
> you can't really tell which project/main level it comes from.

	The origin stamp is exactly what you want.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 1:10pm
Subject: Re: RE: Re: Can one Filter by multiple parameters ?

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, William Franklin wrote:

> To me, more useful would be to do something like Bonsai allows, where
> you can set colors in preferences that change depending on how close to
> the due date (or overdue). As the date gets closer the color changes to
> remind you of urgency. I know, I should be better organized and not need
> such a reminder, but I'm a bit scattered, and am more attuned to visual
> cues than the abstract (to me) of seeing a date and then comparing
> today's date (when I can remember it) and then subtracting the relative
> difference, and then hoping that really registers in my brain to tell me
> to get going on this before it's too late. 

	You can enable the optional column that shows you how far away a
date is (ie: -1, +3, that sort of thing. Save you from doing the math). I
could add a hlight-by-distance option if people want it.

> But, still, things are a lot better than when I tried to keep up with
> things on slips of paper, or notes in a small notebook that I either
> lost of forgot to look at. Thanks for a good program.

	I used to have hundreds of ltitle scraps of paper. Thats why
Shadow got built :) Little papers here or there, with lines scratched off,
erased, etc :) Nasty!

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: Re: PalmGear

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Kenneth S. Rhee wrote:

> I for one have found Palmgear supportive since its inception (that
> started with 1996).  If they are going to be prompt of their payment
> from now on, pay everything on time, then it would only benefits you
> by staying on.  Pulling out your program from Palmgear won't get your
> back payment sooner (unless you can use it as a threat to get a
> favorable back payment plan).

	I've always liked the PG guys; one of the first Palm sites I
found, and always a pretty good site. HAs what you want, looks pretty, and
fast enough. I still check them every few days for neat new stuff.

	I suppose time to open up to the other shops, and help them. They
deserve to win too (all those little portals).

> I believe supporting Palmgear or any other vendors besides Handango is
> a good thing for the Palm community, especially knowing what Handango
> has done in the past.

	Thats the thing; I'd drop Handango if I could, but due to the Palm
connection, they're now accounting for a large chunk of my sales (less
than PG, mind you).

> To me the final question is "do we really want to have another
> Microsoft in Palm community?"

	heh :)

> So, my advice is give them a few months and see what happens in the
> future.

	I've been giving them "a few months" for a year or more, sadly. It
just keeps getting worse. (ie: They were on top through half of 2000, but
since middle 2000 they've been getting more and more behind, every month.
I let the first while go due to the lawsuit, and then it was blamed on the
lawsuit, and still blamed, and more..)  Really, it'd be better if they
just published their plan of how to recover. It is our money they spent,
so it'd be nice to know how they're spending it :/ (and oh yeah, the site
was trashed for awhile, under load, so they used our money to buy more
servers, without asking..) If they didnt' violate the trust every month,
it'd be better.

	I think I'll finish my webstore; move as much volume through my
own store as I can, since I know its a sure thing. Handango is okay.. they
may be naughty, but they've always paid the bills, even if they've been a
bit strongarmed. When it comes down to it, Shadow exists because the bills
got paid, right?

	PH I guess I'll try and heelp them going, but I have to be
careful; they owe me a tonne, plus ongoign costs (ie: Support isn't
free; I sell 4 or 5 months worth of Shadow, and get no money, but cost
money to support all fo those new users, plus upgrade costs and such that
wer enever funded, etc).

	I do have a contract with PG, but they've been violating it since
a year or two back ;/ What can you do.. they'll just go under if you push
:/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 1:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, kenclatham wrote:

> When it comes right down to it, if you don't have a contract... you
> got just exactly what you agreed to, nothing.

	We do have a contract; you enter an agreement with them to act as
your vendor; its not the strongest contract, but its also stronger than a
word of mouth; I've got a nice printout of the contract. Mind you, its
been routinely violated for a long time, so they're not to worried about
it themselves. (ie: IF they know they're on the rocks, they know that we
can't push them any further, since we guaratee we get nothing back then,
too)

> Yes, its cruel, but without proof of agreement of some sort, they have
> the right to pay on whatever schedule they choose.

	Maybe. I think you're a lawyer, right? :)

> I'll agree, any day of the week, that it s**ks.  You have to put aside
>  your rightous indignation and look at the long term picture and do
> what's best for the continuing existence and growth of your business.

	Thats the rub; were I knee-jerking, I'd have pulled out long ago.
But I've been a long term supporter of PG, even through the initial rough
times. I just dislike the continuging saga of sillyness, without proper
explanations or illustrating a recovery plan. Essentially, we're all
suckers, helping keep a float a sinking ship. We've all been down this
road before, and usually you lose at the end, but we're being asked to
trust an organization who obviously is half in control. If they explained
their actions, they might garner some confidence. Instead, its routinely
shady :/

> What it really means is that your sales agent relationship will be
> more costly.  Either in time to contractually barter with PG (or
> whomever) or provide and promote your own.  Project the sales in all
> scenarios and crunch the numbers.  Which holds the greatest profit?

	Well put. Time to do lots of estimations.

> PG *has* the users.. and hence the volume.  What's the cost of doing
> business with them (and not just over the last 4 months).  What's the
> cost of losing sales from Handango if you have to go exclusive with
> PG?  Can you sell from your own site still?

	They have the users, and rightly so. Good site. But the cost of
business is 120% now, instead of 25%. (ie: They keep all the money, and I
have to support the sales anyway, and fund work without their incoke). I
have been bugging them, and got some coin out of them last month, and I
got them to outline the next couple of payments, so I'm hoping they'll
stick to that schedule. If not, well, I'm not sure I can trust an
organization at all that would put out a pay schedule and then skip it
right away. So to me, it depend on a reply to an email I sent a few days
ago, I think.

	I'd love to stay with them, but if they break that trust (again),
what can I do? But we'll see. I dont' want to jump ship, either, for the
good of the community and all, though my shirt is on the line potentially.
(ie: You wouldnt' know it, but theres hundreds of small palm companies
going out of business every month. I know a lot of them who've been put
under. I allowed for it, though :/)

> Do the same with Handango...
> 
> Now project the sales from your own site, subtract costs and project
> gross profit.

	Costs of own site, nearly nil. eSellerate sounds decent,
hopefully..

> Want a "user's" perspective?
> 
> I don't like Handango.  Disorganized, highly cluttered, slow...

	Agreed. I like PG.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: w_higgs58  <bhiggs@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 4:38pm
Subject: Re: Any news on Handera?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 
> 	So your leaning is towards just fonts, and then go on about my
> normal business. Hmm. Thats more possible, since Shadow already 
supports
> highres mechanisms (with implementation for Sony, but in theory 
easy for
> other handhelds too).
> 
> 	Interesting.
> 
> 		jeff

Just doing my best to be an anoying Handera user :)
Any news on Handera support?  My two priorites would be fonts and 
greater jog wheel support. 

Nag. Nag. Nag.

Bill

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

Jeff:

have seen lots of "defendants" just like PG.  promises, promises, promises...and keep your money.  i'm currently helping a couple people go after similar abusers in other areas right now.  don't not pursue your money for fear they will go under, as that is the usual fear these types project to keep people from getting their money...guarantee you if they are going to go under, they will go under whether you pursue or not.  

the part about no agreement and paying whenever they want is wrong.  you would look to oral agreements and the expectations of the parties...this long, you'd get a judgment if you have a decent attorney.

of course all this is your choice, but just don't let the chat i have read about not having a specific agreement make you think you will not prevail.  they took in money for your product and thus owe you money...end of story!  i have just had too many real life cases where the people that make these promises and constant excuses usually continue to do such, almost engrained in their personality.  instead of waking up, telling the truth, and working with those that would likely understand, these people usually continue to play the same games and hope things will just magically go away.  if you want your money and they won't be straight and specific about when, you may need to file a legal action just to get their attention and show them you are serious about resolving this matter!  good luck, you seem like one of the good guys in this world.  ; )

kevin


------------------------------
Enjoy life!
------------------------------
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 5:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: PalmGear


  On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, kenclatham wrote:

  > When it comes right down to it, if you don't have a contract... you
  > got just exactly what you agreed to, nothing.

        We do have a contract; you enter an agreement with them to act as
  your vendor; its not the strongest contract, but its also stronger than a
  word of mouth; I've got a nice printout of the contract. Mind you, its
  been routinely violated for a long time, so they're not to worried about
  it themselves. (ie: IF they know they're on the rocks, they know that we
  can't push them any further, since we guaratee we get nothing back then,
  too)

  > Yes, its cruel, but without proof of agreement of some sort, they have
  > the right to pay on whatever schedule they choose.

        Maybe. I think you're a lawyer, right? :)

  > I'll agree, any day of the week, that it s**ks.  You have to put aside
  >  your rightous indignation and look at the long term picture and do
  > what's best for the continuing existence and growth of your business.

        Thats the rub; were I knee-jerking, I'd have pulled out long ago.
  But I've been a long term supporter of PG, even through the initial rough
  times. I just dislike the continuging saga of sillyness, without proper
  explanations or illustrating a recovery plan. Essentially, we're all
  suckers, helping keep a float a sinking ship. We've all been down this
  road before, and usually you lose at the end, but we're being asked to
  trust an organization who obviously is half in control. If they explained
  their actions, they might garner some confidence. Instead, its routinely
  shady :/

  > What it really means is that your sales agent relationship will be
  > more costly.  Either in time to contractually barter with PG (or
  > whomever) or provide and promote your own.  Project the sales in all
  > scenarios and crunch the numbers.  Which holds the greatest profit?

        Well put. Time to do lots of estimations.

  > PG *has* the users.. and hence the volume.  What's the cost of doing
  > business with them (and not just over the last 4 months).  What's the
  > cost of losing sales from Handango if you have to go exclusive with
  > PG?  Can you sell from your own site still?

        They have the users, and rightly so. Good site. But the cost of
  business is 120% now, instead of 25%. (ie: They keep all the money, and I
  have to support the sales anyway, and fund work without their incoke). I
  have been bugging them, and got some coin out of them last month, and I
  got them to outline the next couple of payments, so I'm hoping they'll
  stick to that schedule. If not, well, I'm not sure I can trust an
  organization at all that would put out a pay schedule and then skip it
  right away. So to me, it depend on a reply to an email I sent a few days
  ago, I think.

        I'd love to stay with them, but if they break that trust (again),
  what can I do? But we'll see. I dont' want to jump ship, either, for the
  good of the community and all, though my shirt is on the line potentially.
  (ie: You wouldnt' know it, but theres hundreds of small palm companies
  going out of business every month. I know a lot of them who've been put
  under. I allowed for it, though :/)

  > Do the same with Handango...
  > 
  > Now project the sales from your own site, subtract costs and project
  > gross profit.

        Costs of own site, nearly nil. eSellerate sounds decent,
  hopefully..

  > Want a "user's" perspective?
  > 
  > I don't like Handango.  Disorganized, highly cluttered, slow...

        Agreed. I like PG.

              jeff




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Russ & Ling  <rnlnero@y...>
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 8:08pm
Subject: Re: PalmGear

From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>

<snip>

> I think I'll finish my webstore; move as much volume through my
> own store as I can, since I know its a sure thing. Handango is okay.. they
> may be naughty, but they've always paid the bills, even if they've been a
> bit strongarmed. When it comes down to it, Shadow exists because the bills
> got paid, right?
>
So when I get around to buying Shadow Desktop, I should go buy at Handango
to make sure you get your money, right? (even though you get less percentage
of it : /)  Would you be able to keep the whole amount (or more percentage)
if you got your own e-store?

Ling

From: Kenneth S. Rhee  <polymath@m...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 0:03am
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

I for one would try talking to Kenny first and try to work out a solution before filing a law suit.

We are such a litigious society, and we can do without another law suit.

I don't think it will help anyone in the Palm community, and in the end, we the end users of Shadow and other programs would end up paying more for our programs to pay off the legal fees.

If I recall, Palmgear has been in business for 6 years, and if they were so unscrupulous, I don't think they would have survived this long.

I'm not here to defend Palmgear, but I'm in favor of trying to solve a problem rather than creating more problems.
--
 Kenneth S. Rhee, polymath@m... on 06/08/2002


On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:34:21 -0800, Kevin Giberson wrote:
>Jeff:
>
>have seen lots of "defendants" just like PG.  promises, promises,
>promises...and keep your money.  i'm currently helping a couple
>people go after similar abusers in other areas right now.  don't not
>pursue your money for fear they will go under, as that is the usual
>fear these types project to keep people from getting their
>money...guarantee you if they are going to go under, they will go
>under whether you pursue or not.
>
>the part about no agreement and paying whenever they want is wrong.
>you would look to oral agreements and the expectations of the
>parties...this long, you'd get a judgment if you have a decent
>attorney.
>
>of course all this is your choice, but just don't let the chat i
>have read about not having a specific agreement make you think you
>will not prevail.  they took in money for your product and thus owe
>you money...end of story!  i have just had too many real life cases
>where the people that make these promises and constant excuses
>usually continue to do such, almost engrained in their personality.
>instead of waking up, telling the truth, and working with those that
>would likely understand, these people usually continue to play the
>same games and hope things will just magically go away.  if you want
>your money and they won't be straight and specific about when, you
>may need to file a legal action just to get their attention and show
>them you are serious about resolving this matter!  good luck, you
>seem like one of the good guys in this world.  ; )
>
>kevin
>
>
>------------------------------
>Enjoy life!
>------------------------------
>----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Mitchell To: shadow-
>discuss@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 5:28 AM
>Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: PalmGear
>
>
>On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, kenclatham wrote:
>
>>When it comes right down to it, if you don't have a contract...
>>you got just exactly what you agreed to, nothing.
>
>We do have a contract; you enter an agreement with them to act as
>your vendor; its not the strongest contract, but its also stronger
>than a word of mouth; I've got a nice printout of the contract. Mind
>you, its been routinely violated for a long time, so they're not to
>worried about it themselves. (ie: IF they know they're on the rocks,
>they know that we can't push them any further, since we guaratee we
>get nothing back then, too)
>
>>Yes, its cruel, but without proof of agreement of some sort, they
>>have the right to pay on whatever schedule they choose.
>
>Maybe. I think you're a lawyer, right? :)
>
>>I'll agree, any day of the week, that it s**ks.  You have to put
>>aside your rightous indignation and look at the long term picture
>>and do what's best for the continuing existence and growth of your
>>business.
>
>Thats the rub; were I knee-jerking, I'd have pulled out long ago.
>But I've been a long term supporter of PG, even through the initial
>rough times. I just dislike the continuging saga of sillyness,
>without proper explanations or illustrating a recovery plan.
>Essentially, we're all suckers, helping keep a float a sinking ship.
>We've all been down this road before, and usually you lose at the
>end, but we're being asked to trust an organization who obviously is
>half in control. If they explained their actions, they might garner
>some confidence. Instead, its routinely shady :/
>
>>What it really means is that your sales agent relationship will be
>>more costly.  Either in time to contractually barter with PG (or
>>whomever) or provide and promote your own.  Project the sales in
>>all scenarios and crunch the numbers.  Which holds the greatest
>>profit?
>
>Well put. Time to do lots of estimations.
>
>>PG *has* the users.. and hence the volume.  What's the cost of
>>doing business with them (and not just over the last 4 months).
>>What's the cost of losing sales from Handango if you have to go
>>exclusive with PG?  Can you sell from your own site still?
>
>They have the users, and rightly so. Good site. But the cost of
>business is 120% now, instead of 25%. (ie: They keep all the money,
>and I have to support the sales anyway, and fund work without their
>incoke). I have been bugging them, and got some coin out of them
>last month, and I got them to outline the next couple of payments,
>so I'm hoping they'll stick to that schedule. If not, well, I'm not
>sure I can trust an organization at all that would put out a pay
>schedule and then skip it right away. So to me, it depend on a reply
>to an email I sent a few days ago, I think.
>
>I'd love to stay with them, but if they break that trust (again),
>what can I do? But we'll see. I dont' want to jump ship, either, for
>the good of the community and all, though my shirt is on the line
>potentially.
>(ie: You wouldnt' know it, but theres hundreds of small palm
>companies going out of business every month. I know a lot of them
>who've been put under. I allowed for it, though :/)
>
>>Do the same with Handango...
>>
>>Now project the sales from your own site, subtract costs and
>>project gross profit.
>
>Costs of own site, nearly nil. eSellerate sounds decent, hopefully..
>
>>Want a "user's" perspective?
>>
>>I don't like Handango.  Disorganized, highly cluttered, slow...
>
>Agreed. I like PG.
>
>jeff
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: shadow-discuss-
>unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
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>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

From: Michael Rudnick  <egroups@R...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 4:40pm
Subject: Re:a few points, and some encouragement

Jeff,

This is something I commented on some time ago. If I had my druthers,
I'd like to see these options when changing a date:
  No Date*
  Yesterday*
  Today*
  Tomorrow*
  Day after Tomorrow
  This Friday
  Next Monday
  One week later (from date listed, not from today)*
  Today +1 week
  Choose Date*

* = Already in Shadow

Those who use DateBk5 can see some similarities here. I find that I
use these options a lot in DateBk5 and miss them in Shadow.

Thanks for a great product.
--
Michael Rudnick                         
egroups@r...

Tuesday, June 4, 2002, 12:08:09 PM, you wrote:
JM> On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:

>> This same topic came up in the Datebk group...I know CESD changed it 
>> so +1 week would be one week from today...I think having both 
>> options would be nice. +1 week would do it from today, "One Week 
>> >From Target" would do just that.

JM>       So you want "One week away" and "+1 Week", and I can leave +1 as
JM> it is now?

JM>             jeff

JM> --
JM> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
JM> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
JM> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
JM> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


JM> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

JM> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
JM> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



JM> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 6:02pm
Subject: Stop all work on the Palm! ;-)

The other night a brief moment of manic productivity overtook my 
body and I began throwing ideas into Shadow for a business I plan to 
start up soon. This happened as I was adding ideas to a Shadow list 
regarding my personal website.

I drug out the desktop version of Shadow to deposit the frantic 
thoughts into as attempting to place them in the Palm would have 
slowed me and I wouldn't have had half of the ideas. The other good 
things about the DT was that I was able to see alot more of what I 
wrote on the screen (in terms of number of items).

The bad thing was that about all I could do was put items in. I 
couldn't move them. I couldn't indent them when I had made a 
mistake. I couldn't define the list type to make it more suited to 
what I was doing :-(

So, I must insist you take a break from the Palm application for a 
while, and boost the desktop. Simple function such as move and 
indent would have helped tremendously during this mad dash to put 
brain into Palm.

OK, so I can't insist...but I can beg, right? ;-)

Thanks for all the hard work! I love what I am seeing in the Palm 
app...now it's time for the DT :-)

From: Pat Galea  <pg@d...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Stop all work on the Palm! ;-)

> So, I must insist you take a break from the Palm application for a 
> while, and boost the desktop. Simple function such as move and 
> indent would have helped tremendously during this mad dash to put 
> brain into Palm.

Get a Palm keyboard! ;-)

pg

From: veb8  <veb8899@f...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:02pm
Subject: Re: PalmGear

Hi Jeff,

Talk about an ironic twist of timing, it seemed like that article on 
PalmGear came out after your response to me on the desktop issue in 
which you explained the life of a developer.  Unfortunately, I have 
no advice to give except to do what is best for you.

I really feel for you and all the developers who have to put up with 
this mess.

Vivian

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:03pm
Subject: Re: Stop all work on the Palm! ;-)

LOL...yeah, I guess throwing money at it would help...though one of 
the things I liked about using the desktop was I could see alot more 
items. 

I've been seriously thinking about getting an NR70...not sure if its 
keyboard would have helped or not.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Pat Galea" <pg@d...> wrote:
> > So, I must insist you take a break from the Palm application for 
a 
> > while, and boost the desktop. Simple function such as move and 
> > indent would have helped tremendously during this mad dash to 
put 
> > brain into Palm.
> 
> Get a Palm keyboard! ;-)
> 
> pg

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Any news on Handera?

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, w_higgs58 wrote:

> > 	So your leaning is towards just fonts, and then go on about my
> > normal business. Hmm. Thats more possible, since Shadow already 
> supports
> > highres mechanisms (with implementation for Sony, but in theory 
> easy for
> > other handhelds too).
> > 
> > 	Interesting.
> > 
> > 		jeff
> 
> Just doing my best to be an anoying Handera user :)
> Any news on Handera support?  My two priorites would be fonts and 
> greater jog wheel support. 
> 
> Nag. Nag. Nag.

	Keep nagging :) Just finishing off custom filters and tags these
days, then its onto other things. Those are the big requests on the
handheld side, so getting them done will make things a lot easier without
me getting bombarded ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:43pm
Subject: Re: PalmGear

On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Russ & Ling wrote:

> > I think I'll finish my webstore; move as much volume through my
> > own store as I can, since I know its a sure thing. Handango is okay.. they
> > may be naughty, but they've always paid the bills, even if they've been a
> > bit strongarmed. When it comes down to it, Shadow exists because the bills
> > got paid, right?

> So when I get around to buying Shadow Desktop, I should go buy at Handango
> to make sure you get your money, right? (even though you get less percentage
> of it : /)  Would you be able to keep the whole amount (or more percentage)
> if you got your own e-store?

	PG takes 25% (or 110%, depending how you look at it). Handango
takes 30%. Using various other store systems like eSellerate usually egts
you 15-20% taken off, but better service (all money coming in goes direct
to your account right away, that sort of thing). I'm tempted to pay for a
direct connection to a bank myself and start my own damned Palm store, but
thats just too mcuh work outside of what I want and need to do :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:47pm
Subject: Re: Re:a few points, and some encouragement

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Michael Rudnick wrote:

> This is something I commented on some time ago. If I had my druthers,
> I'd like to see these options when changing a date:
>   No Date*
>   Yesterday*
>   Today*
>   Tomorrow*
>   Day after Tomorrow
>   This Friday
>   Next Monday
>   One week later (from date listed, not from today)*
>   Today +1 week
>   Choose Date*
> 
> * = Already in Shadow
> 
> Those who use DateBk5 can see some similarities here. I find that I
> use these options a lot in DateBk5 and miss them in Shadow.

	Added to my todo list.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Stop all work on the Palm! ;-)

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:

> So, I must insist you take a break from the Palm application for a 
> while, and boost the desktop. Simple function such as move and 
> indent would have helped tremendously during this mad dash to put 
> brain into Palm.
> 
> OK, so I can't insist...but I can beg, right? ;-)
> 
> Thanks for all the hard work! I love what I am seeing in the Palm 
> app...now it's time for the DT :-)

	As per the plan, I'm wrapping up the top request items for the
handheld and then aiming to spend a couple of months working on the
desktop; the handheld items to do are custom filters and tags and other
misc things (like details screen showing all options, not just the ones
visible in current view). These are all more or less complete now, so I'm
just wrapping them up and getting ready to shift to the desktops (Mac
included).. so you don't need to beg.. its becoming reality :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:50pm
Subject: Re: PalmGear

Hmmm...my webhost gives me a cart and I believe credit card ability 
by default...don't think there is even any service charge per 
transaction. Might want to check out a different host.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Russ & Ling wrote:
> 
> > > I think I'll finish my webstore; move as much volume through my
> > > own store as I can, since I know its a sure thing. Handango is 
okay.. they
> > > may be naughty, but they've always paid the bills, even if 
they've been a
> > > bit strongarmed. When it comes down to it, Shadow exists 
because the bills
> > > got paid, right?
> 
> > So when I get around to buying Shadow Desktop, I should go buy 
at Handango
> > to make sure you get your money, right? (even though you get 
less percentage
> > of it : /)  Would you be able to keep the whole amount (or more 
percentage)
> > if you got your own e-store?
> 
> 	PG takes 25% (or 110%, depending how you look at it). 
Handango
> takes 30%. Using various other store systems like eSellerate 
usually egts
> you 15-20% taken off, but better service (all money coming in goes 
direct
> to your account right away, that sort of thing). I'm tempted to 
pay for a
> direct connection to a bank myself and start my own damned Palm 
store, but
> thats just too mcuh work outside of what I want and need to do :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: llgriffll  <keith@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 9:46pm
Subject: Re: A Kind Reminder about HTML Exporting

Don't mean to bring up the past...but today I was looking at ways to 
get a website development plan, published to the website (hopefully 
automated). In any case, I saw this message from over a year ago.

Did the tool ever come out? What happened to it? I know I could 
export to memo and then upload the resultant code, but it seems a 
bit of a pain. Perhaps I could find a way to translate the XML.

Any ideas for publishing a list routinely to a website guys? 

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > This way I can publish my project plan for my team and my 
managers 
> > right from Shadow!!
> 
> 
> 	btw.. There will be a tool released in approx 2 weeks (to the
> mailing lists, for beta, first) to do Shadow conduit files into 
HTML, RTF,
> maybe other formats. It would include most data about an item. So 
at that
> point, it becomes just push the old hotsync button, run the 
translator,
> pick a list, and push translate to publish :)
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 11:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: A Kind Reminder about HTML Exporting

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, llgriffll wrote:

> Don't mean to bring up the past...but today I was looking at ways to 
> get a website development plan, published to the website (hopefully 
> automated). In any case, I saw this message from over a year ago.
> 
> Did the tool ever come out? What happened to it? I know I could 
> export to memo and then upload the resultant code, but it seems a 
> bit of a pain. Perhaps I could find a way to translate the XML.

	In the end, I left it for XSLT guys to fiddle -- ie: Given XML,
you can turn it into anything, any number of ways. However, if a tool is
needed I could probably put something commandline together pretty
quickly. The code for dealing with the XML files and exporting HTML and
such is obviously long ago completed :)

> Any ideas for publishing a list routinely to a website guys? 

	It has long been my goal to add a "pre-script" and
"post-script" to the conduit; which is to say, when you hit sync, and it
gets to Shadow, it could run an external application(s) of your choice,
and then sync, and then after the sync, run an app(s) of your
choice. Perhaps even ebfore each list, too. In this way you could build a
backup system, or auto-publish, or even a web-to-xml converter tool to
suck web pages into Shadow, etc.

	Bug me if you like. Here or in shadow-developer.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: PocketGoddess  <jen@p...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:02am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

Have you thought about PayPal??  That might not work as your only 
payment method, but it would work for quite a few folks. You get your 
cash instantly, and you can either use a completely free account or 
get a premium account which accepts credit card payments for a fee of 
just 2.9%. And since you get automatic emails when you receive a 
payment, it wouldn't be too much trouble to manage either.

Jen

> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Russ & Ling wrote:

> 	PG takes 25% (or 110%, depending how you look at it). Handango
> takes 30%. Using various other store systems like eSellerate usually 
egts
> you 15-20% taken off, but better service (all money coming in goes 
direct
> to your account right away, that sort of thing). I'm tempted to pay 
for a
> direct connection to a bank myself and start my own damned Palm 
store, but
> thats just too mcuh work outside of what I want and need to do :)
> 
> 		jeff

-- 
jen@p...
http://www.pocketgoddess.com
98% Palm OS, 100% Fun

From: Tom & Christiane Moughan  <moughan@e...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:44am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

----- Original Message -----
From: "PocketGoddess" <jen@p...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] PalmGear


: Have you thought about PayPal??

Jeff

I just downloaded "SmartInput" from PG, and that developer offered a 10% to
register via PayPal, or pay the regular price at PG.  They advertised the option
with an additional text file in the download ZIP

>> Tom
     }}}
   __{{{__       /\   /\
  | o   o |\       o o
  |   V   | |     ==T==
  | }---{ |/
  \_______/

From: Tom & Christiane Moughan  <moughan@e...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:47am
Subject: Re: Stop all work on the Palm! ;-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "llgriffll" <keith@t...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 2:02 PM
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Stop all work on the Palm! ;-)

: So, I must insist you take a break from the Palm application for a 
: while, and boost the desktop. Simple function such as move and 
: indent would have helped tremendously during this mad dash to put 
: brain into Palm.
: 

Import it from memopad...

>> Tom 
     }}}
   __{{{__       /\   /\
  | o   o |\       o o 
  |   V   | |     ==T==   
  | }---{ |/                
  \_______/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:03am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, PocketGoddess wrote:

> Have you thought about PayPal??  That might not work as your only 
> payment method, but it would work for quite a few folks. You get your 
> cash instantly, and you can either use a completely free account or 
> get a premium account which accepts credit card payments for a fee of 
> just 2.9%. And since you get automatic emails when you receive a 
> payment, it wouldn't be too much trouble to manage either.

	Paypal (and other similar services) are not viable for anyone with
a volume of sales (for Palm OS). (ie: And I don't trust them). Consider..
an automated email to me means I could automated a response to the buyer.
That would have to ask for a hotsync ID, and suddenly I'm getting
free-form hotsync ID replies, which means I cannot automate the endof
cycle system. Besides the fact its double the email steps, which always
means trouble for people since their email boxes fill up, etc :)

	No worries, I think I'm okay now, I know what I must do. (I must
act for the good of the community, sure, but I must also get paycheques).  
PG told me (before this announcement) they'd pay me on a certian schedule
for the next couple of payments. They must, or I'll have to go ballistic
them for lieing to me (we have to make decisions based on these sorts of
things, right?) (I've been good to them, they owe it to me. Unless they're
happy and trying to put so many little companies out of business :/)
Anyway, I'll be sure to let folks know if they actually follow up on their
decision, or if they've washed their hands as of that announcement.

	At any rate, I'm not sure I can continue to push for them; I'll
push for folks to use my own webstore. We'll see. I like the PG guys, but
they just can't screw us like this. Some people say its okay what they're
doing.. they think this is over chump change. They forget I've invested
half a year of hard work that PG is holding onto, and thats quite a bundle
:/ (This is full time for me.. and my work and support doesn't come cheap
:)

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:04am
Subject: Re: PalmGear

On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Tom & Christiane Moughan wrote:

> I just downloaded "SmartInput" from PG, and that developer offered a 10% to
> register via PayPal, or pay the regular price at PG.  They advertised the option
> with an additional text file in the download ZIP

	I've been tempted to do that, but who knows what the PG contracts
say (nowadays; they can change them at will). I know Handango will cut you
off if they catch wind of such a thing.. they require they are on par, or
cheaper, than your other points of sales.

	I'd pay PalmGear to be a listing service; perhaps thats what they
should do.. they could put our own websites back onto the pages, and just
be a catalog :/

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 3:23am
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

Kenneth, wish it was always as easy as you suggest!

First off, the legal fees in this type of matter are usually contingency
fee, thus not costing the plaintiff (person that brings the suit) money out
of pocket, just a percentage goes to the law firm in the end.  This scenario
essentially allows you to get a good percentage of your money as opposed to
the nothing you are currently receiving.  Reading the messages, it sounds
like talking has occurred...and it is the same excuses for not paying over
and over.

You speak of a litigious society, but then why not speak about the losers
that don't pay what they owe, won't talk and tell the truth, and lead to
this sort of problem.  I find that these people finally wake up and talk
serious when they are served with a subpoena, but until then the excuses
merely continue over and over.  Of course there are lawsuits brought by
people that have no cases by attorneys that must take those type of cases to
pay their monthly bills, but every profession has losers that we don't hear
about in the media every day!

I am all for keeping cases out of the courts when possible, but don't
disparage a system that is there to make sure justice occurs when necessary.
It is comments like yours that tend to suggest it is wrong to bring a
lawsuit in a situation where it appears to be the one solution to wake up
PG.  When you truly have an inside view of the profession, then speak your
truth, but until then don't spout the usual generalizations that sell
newspapers!  ; )

Nothing personal, but I have been on the inside for 14 years.

Kevin



------------------------------
Enjoy life!
------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth S. Rhee" <polymath@m...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: PalmGear


I for one would try talking to Kenny first and try to work out a solution
before filing a law suit.

We are such a litigious society, and we can do without another law suit.

I don't think it will help anyone in the Palm community, and in the end, we
the end users of Shadow and other programs would end up paying more for our
programs to pay off the legal fees.

If I recall, Palmgear has been in business for 6 years, and if they were so
unscrupulous, I don't think they would have survived this long.

I'm not here to defend Palmgear, but I'm in favor of trying to solve a
problem rather than creating more problems.
--
 Kenneth S. Rhee, polymath@m... on 06/08/2002

From: bonos167  <ygd@i...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:24am
Subject: Re: Can one Filter by multiple parameters ?

> > New criterion ---->: a specific word [e.g. call  :)  ] 
> 
> 	Custom filters supports title and note substring matching since
> day one. It is case sensitive, due to limitations in the units, though I
> may add a case insensitive substring match.. but that will slow the
> display way down when that is used in a filter.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
I'll have to go back and read the manual again ... which I have not
done in months .... Sorry ;)

> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Kenneth S. Rhee  <polymath@m...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:36am
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

This is getting off topic so if you want to follow up, please do so privately.

Here is a short reply to your comments.
--
 Kenneth S. Rhee, polymath@m... on 06/09/2002


On Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:23:11 -0800, Kevin Giberson wrote:
>Kenneth, wish it was always as easy as you suggest!
>
>First off, the legal fees in this type of matter are usually
>contingency fee, thus not costing the plaintiff (person that brings
>the suit) money out of pocket, just a percentage goes to the law
>firm in the end.  This scenario essentially allows you to get a good
>percentage of your money as opposed to the nothing you are currently
>receiving.  Reading the messages, it sounds like talking has
>occurred...and it is the same excuses for not paying over and over.
>

I believe this is one of the reasons why there are so many frivolous suits.  I think the principle is good, but it's been abused so much that it's not even funny.

>You speak of a litigious society, but then why not speak about the
>losers that don't pay what they owe, won't talk and tell the truth,
>and lead to this sort of problem.  I find that these people finally
>wake up and talk serious when they are served with a subpoena, but
>until then the excuses merely continue over and over.  Of course
>there are lawsuits brought by people that have no cases by attorneys
>that must take those type of cases to pay their monthly bills, but
>every profession has losers that we don't hear about in the media
>every day!
>
I'm not sure Palmgear said they would not pay.  They merely spelled out what I think is a reasonable way to pay out the back payment.  If you force them to go bankrupt and restructure, I doubt Jeff will see any money in the near future.  It will be  tied up in the court and Jeff won't see a single dime this month (at least their proposed solution provides Jeff with some income this month).

>I am all for keeping cases out of the courts when possible, but
>don't disparage a system that is there to make sure justice occurs
>when necessary.
>It is comments like yours that tend to suggest it is wrong to bring
>a lawsuit in a situation where it appears to be the one solution to
>wake up PG.  When you truly have an inside view of the profession,
>then speak your truth, but until then don't spout the usual
>generalizations that sell newspapers!  ; )
>
>Nothing personal, but I have been on the inside for 14 years.

Sure, you are inside, but that doesn't make you a sole expert on the system.  There are many others in the system who think the system needs a complete overhaul.  I'm not a licensed lawyer, but I'm familiar with business legal matters and business ethics, and I have many colleagues who are inside.   I think you are I differ on what might be PG's true intention.  I don't think they are totally irresponsible as you suggest.  I sincerely believe (as many others do), they are trying to make the best of the "awkward" situation they are in.  Of course you might be assuming that  only a legal actin can make people to walk straight, but I beg to differ on this issue.  This reminds me of an episode in Paper Chase where Mrs Nottingham was sued by her neighbor.  I think she reached the solution out of court by talking and coming to a resolution rather than letting it play out in the legal system.  Furthermore, I am not bashing the entire legal system, and in fact, I'm a big proponent of justice.  However, I don't believe any legal system, however elaborate and fair, can solve all our problems.  Besides, I was suggesting what might be the best solution for all around, not just one developer per se.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:43am
Subject: Re: Re: Can one Filter by multiple parameters ?

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, bonos167 wrote:

> > > New criterion ---->: a specific word [e.g. call  :)  ] 
> > 
> > 	Custom filters supports title and note substring matching since
> > day one. It is case sensitive, due to limitations in the units, though I
> > may add a case insensitive substring match.. but that will slow the
> > display way down when that is used in a filter.
> > 
> I'll have to go back and read the manual again ... which I have not
> done in months .... Sorry ;)

	Custom filters are coming out very soon; they're tested, but just
polishing things off :)

	Stay tuned! (or gran the beta I leaked a few days ago..)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Kevin Giberson  <kevin@g...>
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 4:17am
Subject: Re: Re: PalmGear

your citing an example from of movie pretty much sums it up for me
Kenneth...that is not the real world!  saying you know what the inside on
the legal system is about because a friend is in the system or because a
movie said so...you are citing the media hype still.  easy to talk your talk
when you didn't lose a lot of money.  no use continuing our discussion when
we are from completely different realities about this stuff.
kevin


------------------------------
Enjoy life!
------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth S. Rhee" <polymath@m...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: PalmGear


This is getting off topic so if you want to follow up, please do so
privately.

Here is a short reply to your comments.
--
 Kenneth S. Rhee, polymath@m... on 06/09/2002


On Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:23:11 -0800, Kevin Giberson wrote:
>Kenneth, wish it was always as easy as you suggest!
>
>First off, the legal fees in this type of matter are usually
>contingency fee, thus not costing the plaintiff (person that brings
>the suit) money out of pocket, just a percentage goes to the law
>firm in the end. This scenario essentially allows you to get a good
>percentage of your money as opposed to the nothing you are currently
>receiving. Reading the messages, it sounds like talking has
>occurred...and it is the same excuses for not paying over and over.
>

I believe this is one of the reasons why there are so many frivolous suits.
I think the principle is good, but it's been abused so much that it's not
even funny.

>You speak of a litigious society, but then why not speak about the
>losers that don't pay what they owe, won't talk and tell the truth,
>and lead to this sort of problem. I find that these people finally
>wake up and talk serious when they are served with a subpoena, but
>until then the excuses merely continue over and over. Of course
>there are lawsuits brought by people that have no cases by attorneys
>that must take those type of cases to pay their monthly bills, but
>every profession has losers that we don't hear about in the media
>every day!
>
I'm not sure Palmgear said they would not pay.  They merely spelled out what
I think is a reasonable way to pay out the back payment.  If you force them
to go bankrupt and restructure, I doubt Jeff will see any money in the near
future.  It will be  tied up in the court and Jeff won't see a single dime
this month (at least their proposed solution provides Jeff with some income
this month).

>I am all for keeping cases out of the courts when possible, but
&