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301

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Jeff! Estimated launch date of v. 1.5

 
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 siggi@i... wrote:

> I think many of your users would like to know the timeframe for 
> version 1.5. It seems to have features that would, at least in my 
> case, be a huge leap forward.

	It is pretty near; the current alpha seems to be going well, and
is most of 1.5; I'm goign to release another alpha today with I think all
of the features of 1.5, and then another tomorrow with cleanups and
finishing off. Then it'll sit in alpha for a couple of days, then it will
be announced here and in the shadow-discuss mailing list for you guys to
publicly beta test. After a week of that (and me working on manuals, etc),
it'll go public.

	So you ought to see it maybe monday or tuesday, in beta form.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
302

From: siggi@i...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:30pm
Subject: Re: Jeff! Estimated launch date of v. 1.5

 
Great Jeff!
303

From: bill.higgs@b...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 10:30pm
Subject: Re: Import To-Do list

 
Life Balance 2.5.1 has a nice way of doing this.  You can set up an 
option that any todo item with a category of x would be 
coppied/linked to LB Outline Y.  Therefore you could freely input 
todo's anywhere (Datebook4, Outlook, ect..) and know that they would 
be imported into LB the next time to started the app.

Bill

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 
> 	You can already import all the todos, but I think you wish to 
pick
> up one at a time. I will be adding a "Create from existing..." menu 
item,
> to allow you to pick up existing todo and datebook items. I've just 
not
> decided how best to create a UI for it. Once I nail down a simple 
UI, I'll
> add it.
304

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Import To-Do list

 
I never liked the idea of wasting a category like that; if you wan
tto import into 5 or 6 lists, you lose 5 or 6 categories? We were thinking
of note contents, or title text text.. (if it has "FOO:", then import into
Shadow list XX, and delete the FOO: part). That might be more useful, but
a little trickier..

	I've just built the ability to copy into shadow an item from the
todo or datebook databases (and optionally link back to it). Ought to work
well enough for now, and I'll do auto importing in a bit..

		jeff

On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 bill.higgs@b... wrote:

> Life Balance 2.5.1 has a nice way of doing this.  You can set up an 
> option that any todo item with a category of x would be 
> coppied/linked to LB Outline Y.  Therefore you could freely input 
> todo's anywhere (Datebook4, Outlook, ect..) and know that they would 
> be imported into LB the next time to started the app.
> 
> Bill
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 	You can already import all the todos, but I think you wish to 
> pick
> > up one at a time. I will be adding a "Create from existing..." menu 
> item,
> > to allow you to pick up existing todo and datebook items. I've just 
> not
> > decided how best to create a UI for it. Once I nail down a simple 
> UI, I'll
> > add it.
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
305

From: verxion@p...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
I know it has a purpose.  I have read you describe it.  I can't explain it, but it has felt dangerous to me since I first noticed its behaviour.  It just stung me.

Before you read any more, the sting MAY have occurred because I am using 1.4.11, I don't know, but either way, if this feature was changed, I don't think I would have been stung.

I am talking about the fact that when I go to "edit" a note, I am not really editing it.  I am editing in never never land, and NONE of what I am doing has any effect unless I hit the "done" button.

Why does this bug me?  Well, literally dozens of times, I have found myself editting a note and then I needed a phone number or info from another app.  I hit the button to switch apps, I switch back to shadow plan, and NONE of what I was working on is saved, it is all lost.  Yes, I know, it is PEBKAC, and I should just learn to do better, but it sure sucks when it happens.  I use peditpro a TON, and it doesn't act like this.  I guess peditpro has sortof trained my activities, and I am trying to untrain myself in using shadow plan because I have to be more careful or it throws my data away.

But the problem I just had is far more sinister.  I was editting a note, and had reached its maximum limit.  I literally couldn't add a single other character (yes, I know this is a limitation, no big deal there).  Someone stopped by my desk, I was talking to them for a second, meanwhile, the unit turned itself off.  Then I turn it on and hit the done button, and it crashes, losing 100% of the data I was editting.  I know this may be my palm, my hacks, it could be anything.  I don't fault shadow plan in the crash.  What I do not like is that it didn't save ANY of my data.

I find myself being stung by this quite a lot.

Is there ANY way you could make a configurable preference setting that lets shadow plan act like the normal inbuilt applications?  If I create a new addressbook entry and only enter the first character, it saves it when I switch to another app.  The same is true of memo pad, todo, you get the idea.  Shadow plan is the ONLY application I have this problem with and lately it is really bugging me.

Sorry to vent, but I just lost 16K of data I am gonna have to put back in.  I envision myself "saving often" by hitting "done" and then re-editting my note, scrolling to the bottom to start typing again, just to try to keep this from happening again. . .

-Joe Chott
306

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I am talking about the fact that when I go to "edit" a note, I am not
> really editing it.  I am editing in never never land, and NONE of what
> I am doing has any effect unless I hit the "done" button.

	Its not a bug; its published and by design. Its just not
necessarily desirable ;) (sorry about your data though :( Shadow saves
when it is desirable to do so. In this one case, when editting some
details (any of the item details), Shadow doesn't know if what you've
editted is a mistake or not, and doesn't save when you exit, since it is
unsure of your intentions.

	1.5 will have a safe guard. One of two options:

(1) When you exit Shadow, while in a detail window, it will automatically
assume you hit "done" and save the item as is

or

(2) When you exit Shadow while in a detail window, Shadow pops up an alert
saying "WAIT! Do you wish to save your changes?", thus allowing you to
make it happen.

	I'm leaning towards (2) right now, but it may be the user always
wants to do (1), so thats an option. Any votes?

> Yes, I know, it is PEBKAC, and I should just learn to do better, but

	PEBKAC?

> it sure sucks when it happens.  I use peditpro a TON, and it doesn't
> act like this.  I guess peditpro has sortof trained my activities, and
> I am trying to untrain myself in using shadow plan because I have to
> be more careful or it throws my data away.

	Most apps don't have as much "state" (data per window or other
context) so they don't need to worry.. they just save and don't
worry. Since Sahdow has editting in another window, it complicates things
:(

> second, meanwhile, the unit turned itself off.  Then I turn it on and
> hit the done button, and it crashes, losing 100% of the data I was
> editting.  I know this may be my palm, my hacks, it could be anything.  
> I don't fault shadow plan in the crash.  What I do not like is that it
> didn't save ANY of my data.

	It crashed when you hit done? In the note edit screen in
particular? I will investigate.. if its a bug, I will fix it for 1.5 (and
I'm sorry that it happened to you :(

> create a new addressbook entry and only enter the first character, it
> saves it when I switch to another app.  The same is true of memo pad,
> todo, you get the idea.  Shadow plan is the ONLY application I have
> this problem with and lately it is really bugging me.

	Many applications are like this, actuslly. The built in apps are
rather simple, and always do editting inline onscreem, so its much easier
asnd more natural for them to do so.

	But I agree.. Shadows behaviour as is is uncool. Its the last
thing for me to add to 1.5 before it goes into release testing.

> Sorry to vent, but I just lost 16K of data I am gonna have to put back
> in.  I envision myself "saving often" by hitting "done" and then
> re-editting my note, scrolling to the bottom to start typing again,
> just to try to keep this from happening again. . .

	I'll fix it for you. I'm sorry about your data :(

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
307

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:09am
Subject: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> 
> > I am talking about the fact that when I go to "edit" a note, I am 
not
> > really editing it.  I am editing in never never land, and NONE of 
what
> > I am doing has any effect unless I hit the "done" button.
> 
> 	Its not a bug; its published and by design. Its just not
> necessarily desirable ;) (sorry about your data though :( Shadow 
saves
> when it is desirable to do so. In this one case, when editting some
> details (any of the item details), Shadow doesn't know if what 
you've
> editted is a mistake or not, and doesn't save when you exit, since 
it is
> unsure of your intentions.

I knew this wasn't a bug - I had read about your description of how 
it currently works.

> 	1.5 will have a safe guard. One of two options:
> 
> (1) When you exit Shadow, while in a detail window, it will 
automatically
> assume you hit "done" and save the item as is
> 
> or
> 
> (2) When you exit Shadow while in a detail window, Shadow pops up 
an alert
> saying "WAIT! Do you wish to save your changes?", thus allowing you 
to
> make it happen.
> 
> 	I'm leaning towards (2) right now, but it may be the user 
always
> wants to do (1), so thats an option. Any votes?

Hrm.  So if I am in shadow plan, and I hit the phone button on my 
palm, it is going to pop open a window asking if I want to save 
changes?  Well, I suppose I could deal with that.  I would prefer it 
just saving it.  I guess it might help me if you could explain like 
WHAT circumstances would exist where I wouldn't want to just have it 
save?  I mean, I like the concept of an undo, but more like an 
actual "UNDO" function.  The way it is, it is like a forced undo.  It 
is almost like you are popping up a question saying "Are you sure you 
don't want to undo this edit?".  It is probably just how I am looking 
at it.  I figure I am missing something here. . .

> > Yes, I know, it is PEBKAC, and I should just learn to do better, 
but
> 
> 	PEBKAC?

[P]roblem [E]xists [B]etween [K]eyboard [A]nd [C]hair

Also known as the ID 10 T error.

ID10T = idiot.  :)

> > second, meanwhile, the unit turned itself off.  Then I turn it on 
and
> > hit the done button, and it crashes, losing 100% of the data I was
> > editting.  I know this may be my palm, my hacks, it could be 
anything.  
> > I don't fault shadow plan in the crash.  What I do not like is 
that it
> > didn't save ANY of my data.
> 
> 	It crashed when you hit done? In the note edit screen in
> particular? I will investigate.. if its a bug, I will fix it for 
1.5 (and
> I'm sorry that it happened to you :(

Yes, in the note screen.  I am not upset about the loss of data 
really.  Life goes on.  I am a software developer too, I know how 
hard some bugs can be to track down, trust me.  I just (personally) 
wish the "assumed undo" wasn't in place.  That's all.

> 	But I agree.. Shadows behaviour as is is uncool. Its the last
> thing for me to add to 1.5 before it goes into release testing.
> 
> > Sorry to vent, but I just lost 16K of data I am gonna have to put 
back
> > in.  I envision myself "saving often" by hitting "done" and then
> > re-editting my note, scrolling to the bottom to start typing 
again,
> > just to try to keep this from happening again. . .
> 
> 	I'll fix it for you. I'm sorry about your data :(
> 
> 		jeff

Jeff, as I said before, life goes on.  I do appreciate that you will 
be changing this functionality though.  It is the only thing I have 
found in any way upsetting about shadow plan.

Thanks again for such an awesome program and the really good support.

-Joe Chott
308

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:59am
Subject: Re: DateBk4 Launch / Arranger Return

 
Try McPhling.  It's freeware, much more bug-free than switchhack, 
color aware, and also has a MostRecentlyUsed list of your last 10 
items.  v 1.08 was just released yesterday.

tommyb

 
> I have been using SwitchHack some time for moving back and forth 
> between two applications: does also work when following link from 
> Shadow to Datebk4 and back (shareware $5 from www.deskfree.com)
> Ole
309

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 2:07am
Subject: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
I have commented on this in the shadow-test forum.  I concur with 
verxion.  I would really like the addition of a buffer to hold the 
contents of the one open unsaved screen, and let the entire app save, 
including the "unsaved" changes in the buffer whenever you switch 
apps.  Even though it is more work to implement, the intuitive 
behavior for an app should be that NOTHING is lost unless you 
specifically approve it.

tommyb



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> 
> > I am talking about the fact that when I go to "edit" a note, I am 
not
> > really editing it.  I am editing in never never land, and NONE of 
what
> > I am doing has any effect unless I hit the "done" button.
> 
> 	Its not a bug; its published and by design. Its just not
> necessarily desirable ;) (sorry about your data though :( Shadow 
saves
> when it is desirable to do so. In this one case, when editting some
> details (any of the item details), Shadow doesn't know if what 
you've
> editted is a mistake or not, and doesn't save when you exit, since 
it is
> unsure of your intentions.
> 
> 	1.5 will have a safe guard. One of two options:
> 
> (1) When you exit Shadow, while in a detail window, it will 
automatically
> assume you hit "done" and save the item as is
> 
> or
> 
> (2) When you exit Shadow while in a detail window, Shadow pops up 
an alert
> saying "WAIT! Do you wish to save your changes?", thus allowing you 
to
> make it happen.
> 
> 	I'm leaning towards (2) right now, but it may be the user 
always
> wants to do (1), so thats an option. Any votes?
> 
> > Yes, I know, it is PEBKAC, and I should just learn to do better, 
but
> 
> 	PEBKAC?
> 
> > it sure sucks when it happens.  I use peditpro a TON, and it 
doesn't
> > act like this.  I guess peditpro has sortof trained my 
activities, and
> > I am trying to untrain myself in using shadow plan because I have 
to
> > be more careful or it throws my data away.
> 
> 	Most apps don't have as much "state" (data per window or other
> context) so they don't need to worry.. they just save and don't
> worry. Since Sahdow has editting in another window, it complicates 
things
> :(
> 
> > second, meanwhile, the unit turned itself off.  Then I turn it on 
and
> > hit the done button, and it crashes, losing 100% of the data I was
> > editting.  I know this may be my palm, my hacks, it could be 
anything.  
> > I don't fault shadow plan in the crash.  What I do not like is 
that it
> > didn't save ANY of my data.
> 
> 	It crashed when you hit done? In the note edit screen in
> particular? I will investigate.. if its a bug, I will fix it for 
1.5 (and
> I'm sorry that it happened to you :(
> 
> > create a new addressbook entry and only enter the first 
character, it
> > saves it when I switch to another app.  The same is true of memo 
pad,
> > todo, you get the idea.  Shadow plan is the ONLY application I 
have
> > this problem with and lately it is really bugging me.
> 
> 	Many applications are like this, actuslly. The built in apps 
are
> rather simple, and always do editting inline onscreem, so its much 
easier
> asnd more natural for them to do so.
> 
> 	But I agree.. Shadows behaviour as is is uncool. Its the last
> thing for me to add to 1.5 before it goes into release testing.
> 
> > Sorry to vent, but I just lost 16K of data I am gonna have to put 
back
> > in.  I envision myself "saving often" by hitting "done" and then
> > re-editting my note, scrolling to the bottom to start typing 
again,
> > just to try to keep this from happening again. . .
> 
> 	I'll fix it for you. I'm sorry about your data :(
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
310

From: Terry Kyte  <kyte@s...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 5:32am
Subject: Shadow Questions

 
I've finally read through all of the manual for Shadow 1.4.  I've got a few
questions.

1) Are there any limits to a)the number of lists b) the number of items in a
list, or c) the number of levels in a list?  Or is it only limited to the
amount of memory you have?
2) In your manual, you asked for our thoughts on where the Indent Priority
Bubble should be located.  I know you have the option available, but my
personal preference is to indent it with the item.
3) An "real" UNDO option would be much more preferable over the "Revert to
last" option you currently have.
4) When creating a new item and linking it to the ToDo, it would be nice to
be able to specify the category that it gets put into.  It seems to default
to the Unfiled category.  I look forward to the ability to link to an
Address - I understand you've added that in v1.5.  I use TealPhone - will it
matter - or have you programmed popular phone apps into the program like you
did for datebook & todo apps? (ie DateBk4 & ToDoPlus)
5) I'm really looking forward to a desktop conduit.  My purpose would be for
the ability to edit and print my Shadow Plans as well as easily
cutting&pasting to other apps as required.  Is the conduit in v1.5?
6) How much bigger do you expect v1.5 to be?  (ie kbytes)
7) Finally, you referred to v 1.4.10 and 1.4.11 which I understand are beta
or works in development.  Are these available to registered users for
testing?  If so, where can they be downloaded?

Thanks Jeff!  Shadow is my *most useful* app I have.  I use it for
*everything*.  Keep up the good work!
311

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 6:16am
Subject: Re: Shadow Questions

 
Actually they are alpha works.  You can download and test by joining 
the shadow-test group at 
http://shadow.skeleton.org/mailman/listinfo/shadow-test

You should understand that alpha versions can be unstable.  For 
instance, don't try 1.4.10.  It causes a variety of fatal exceptions.

With that in mind, I will say that 1.4.12 is awesome.  It is the core 
of 1.5, soon to be released as beta, and has much of the linking in 
place that Jeff has promised...  He really outdid himself with this 
one!

tommyb

>snip<
 7) Finally, you referred to v 1.4.10 and 1.4.11 which I understand 
are beta or works in development.  Are these available to registered 
users for testing?  If so, where can they be downloaded?
312

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Shadow Questions

 
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:

> 1) Are there any limits to a)the number of lists b) the number of items in a
> list, or c) the number of levels in a list?  Or is it only limited to the
> amount of memory you have?

	Memory; once you go past 8 or 9 sublevels, Shadow starts warning
you, I think (unless I turned that warning off, since Zoom makes it not
really as relevant). But you can actually go quite deep (sure, it wont'
draw on screen, but that never hurt anybody ;)

	You can have as many lists as you like, limited by palm storage
memory. You can have as many items as you like, limited by palm dynamic
and storage memory (ie: a few hundred itms in original palms, to many
thousands of items in newer palms). You can also link files together, if
you ever run into a memory limit.

> 2) In your manual, you asked for our thoughts on where the Indent Priority
> Bubble should be located.  I know you have the option available, but my
> personal preference is to indent it with the item.

	Some folks still like it one way or the other, so I've left it in
for the custom views.

> 3) An "real" UNDO option would be much more preferable over the "Revert to
> last" option you currently have.

	Yep; a real undo won't be available for awhile.. its a very
complex operation to integrate.. slows things down a little, and if not
done exasctly perfectly, is very very bad. So I'm waiting until other
super important things are out of the way.

> 4) When creating a new item and linking it to the ToDo, it would be nice to
> be able to specify the category that it gets put into.  It seems to default
> to the Unfiled category.  I look forward to the ability to link to an
> Address - I understand you've added that in v1.5.  I use TealPhone - will it
> matter - or have you programmed popular phone apps into the program like you
> did for datebook & todo apps? (ie DateBk4 & ToDoPlus)

	Very basic todo category support may show up in 1.5; if not, then
an early 1.5.x will have it. The new link manager allows you to link to
addresses and memos (and eventually docs, applications, you name it). You
can set a specific program for each type of file you link to.. so if you
like to addresses, it defaults to the address book, but you can override
to whatever you like.

> 5) I'm really looking forward to a desktop conduit.  My purpose would be for
> the ability to edit and print my Shadow Plans as well as easily
> cutting&pasting to other apps as required.  Is the conduit in v1.5?

	1.5 includes the one way backup conduit and installer (for
windows, I have no MAc environment yet). So after installing in windows,
you'll automagicly get both the shadow pdbs (that you get now), as well as
XML files of your shadow lists. Many peopel are already doing neat things
with the XML, hwoever soon after 1.5 I'll release some translator apps to
turn the XML into HTML, RTF, and other useful formats. This gets you easy
printing and editing.. but still doesnt' get the data back to shadow. You
can also, on palm, export to DOC now, to do printing and editting, and
once I add import from DOC, you coudl perhaps import back in, to some
extent.

	Once the translators are out, I'll work on two way sync and the
actual desktop application.

> 6) How much bigger do you expect v1.5 to be?  (ie kbytes)

	Its getting a bit large, so I'm thinking baout options in the
future; it might be time to start breaking it up into loadable modules, so
you can skip the things you don't need. 1.5 will be about 150k (but all
useful and good!). Future versions may have modules (like graphing and
such)

> 7) Finally, you referred to v 1.4.10 and 1.4.11 which I understand are beta
> or works in development.  Are these available to registered users for
> testing?  If so, where can they be downloaded?

	All Shadow releases (alpha, beta, public) are available to
everyone. They all end up in one directory on my server for downloading,
but I prefer for tose interested in alphas to join shadow-test, and betas
to join shadow-discuss (list or forum), so they know the implications and
caveats (especially with alphas!). -test is for early discussion about new
features.. so when I start bulding somethign new, we fight it out there,
so they get earlier input into the design and workings of things. Once its
been tested in -test for awhile until stable, I make a beta. They usually
see it first, and if good, I inform -discuss, and once everyone there
likes it, it goes public. -discuss will get the 1.5 beta in a few days,
likely.

> Thanks Jeff!  Shadow is my *most useful* app I have.  I use it for
> *everything*.  Keep up the good work!

	You'll dig 1.5 :) It makes me giggle :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
313

From: Jim Robbins  <web_egroups@r...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:10pm
Subject: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
> > I am talking about the fact that when I go to "edit" a note, I am not
> > really editing it.  I am editing in never never land, and NONE of what
> > I am doing has any effect unless I hit the "done" button.
>
> 1.5 will have a safe guard. One of two options:
>
> (1) When you exit Shadow, while in a detail window, it will automatically
> assume you hit "done" and save the item as is
>
> or
>
> (2) When you exit Shadow while in a detail window, Shadow pops up an alert
> saying "WAIT! Do you wish to save your changes?", thus allowing you to
> make it happen.
>
> I'm leaning towards (2) right now, but it may be the user always
> wants to do (1), so thats an option. Any votes?

I think that Shadow should copy the note to another buffer and edit that
buffer. When the user switches to another app, save the state of that
buffer. When Shadow is reactivated start the app back at that buffer. If the
user chooses to cancel then throw away the buffer and the original text is
unaffected.

If this is not possible or desirable due to memory constraints, then you
should at least have an option to "auto-save" automatically (option '1'
above). This is consistent with other Palm applications (like DateBk4).

Jim
314

From: Terry Kyte  <kyte@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 0:33am
Subject: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
I noticed that if I have a list item at the bottom of the screen that is
collapsed, and I click to expand it, it expands, but does not move up on the
screen so I can see the children.  I still have to scroll down to see the
children.  Is this by design?  Is this changed in v1.5?

Likewise, if I have an expanded item with the parent at the top of the
screen (and no other parents below it), then I collapse it, the list items
(parents) don't move down to fill the screen - ie) I have to scroll up to
see the items abve it.  It leaves a lot of blank space in the list view.
Am I explaining this right?  Any comments?
315

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 0:40am
Subject: Re: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
Its a little by design, and a little on "no ones has really
talkjed about it much" ;)  I generally don't like too much automatic
screen movement.. it makes your eyes lose their spot, and I don't like
that. IF the screen moves, it should be by your command.

	Conversely, its nice to keep lots of information onscreen. Perhaps
its best to mvoe the screen to keep mroe useful stuff there.

	I think in these cases, I let you guys fight it out and I pick up
the remains :)

		jeff

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:

> I noticed that if I have a list item at the bottom of the screen that is
> collapsed, and I click to expand it, it expands, but does not move up on the
> screen so I can see the children.  I still have to scroll down to see the
> children.  Is this by design?  Is this changed in v1.5?
> 
> Likewise, if I have an expanded item with the parent at the top of the
> screen (and no other parents below it), then I collapse it, the list items
> (parents) don't move down to fill the screen - ie) I have to scroll up to
> see the items abve it.  It leaves a lot of blank space in the list view.
> Am I explaining this right?  Any comments?
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
316

From: Peter Wirstrom  <pw@w...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 0:51am
Subject: RE: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
Hi Terry,

we are at least three with this opinion; see messages 179 and 180
in this group.

Peter

|-----Original Message-----
|From: Terry Kyte [mailto:kyte@s...]
|Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 19:33
|To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
|Subject: [shadow-discuss] Expand to move screen
|up/Collapse to move down
|
|
|I noticed that if I have a list item at the bottom of
|the screen that is
|collapsed, and I click to expand it, it expands, but
|does not move up on the
|screen so I can see the children.  I still have to
|scroll down to see the
|children.  Is this by design?  Is this changed in v1.5?
|
|Likewise, if I have an expanded item with the parent at
|the top of the
|screen (and no other parents below it), then I collapse
|it, the list items
|(parents) don't move down to fill the screen - ie) I
|have to scroll up to
|see the items abve it.  It leaves a lot of blank space
|in the list view.
|Am I explaining this right?  Any comments?

Yes you are, and see above!
===========================
317

From: Terry Kyte  <kyte@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:50am
Subject: RE: Shadow Questions

 
>You can also, on palm, export to DOC now, to do printing and editting, and
once I add import
>from DOC, you coudl perhaps import back in, to some extent.

What do you mean - "you can also, on palm, export to DOC now"?  How?
318

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 5:33am
Subject: Re: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
When Shadow expands/collapses, my eyes lose their spot anyway...
(or maybe I just see spots in front of my eyes anyway ;-)

I vote to have the selected line at the top of the screen after an 
expand/collapse action.  

tommyb



<snip>
I generally don't like too much automatic
> screen movement.. it makes your eyes lose their spot, and I don't 
like
> that. IF the screen moves, it should be by your command.
> 
> 	Conversely, its nice to keep lots of information onscreen. 
Perhaps
> its best to mvoe the screen to keep mroe useful stuff there.
> 
> 	I think in these cases, I let you guys fight it out and I 
pick up
> the remains :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:
> 
> > I noticed that if I have a list item at the bottom of the screen 
that is
> > collapsed, and I click to expand it, it expands, but does not 
move up on the
> > screen so I can see the children.  I still have to scroll down to 
see the
> > children.  Is this by design?  Is this changed in v1.5?
> > 
> > Likewise, if I have an expanded item with the parent at the top 
of the
> > screen (and no other parents below it), then I collapse it, the 
list items
> > (parents) don't move down to fill the screen - ie) I have to 
scroll up to
> > see the items abve it.  It leaves a lot of blank space in the 
list view.
> > Am I explaining this right?  Any comments?
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
319

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 2:47pm
Subject: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
> I think that Shadow should copy the note to another buffer and
> edit that buffer. When the user switches to another app, save
> the state of that buffer. When Shadow is reactivated start the
> app back at that buffer. If the user chooses to cancel then
> throw away the buffer and the original text is unaffected.
> 
> If this is not possible or desirable due to memory constraints,
> then you should at least have an option to "auto-save"
> automatically (option '1' above). This is consistent with other
> Palm applications (like DateBk4).

I agree with Jim and the other posters on this topic. Auto-saving 
your work in progress when switching off your device or launching a 
different application seems to be a fairly common and accepted 
practice. And I certainly concur that it is at least desirable.

I (like Joe) often make a little side step to the address book or 
other applications while working in Shadow (or any other app for that 
matter) and expect none of my work in progress to be lost.

Weighing the two "risks" against eachother (loosing information you 
just entered or inadvertently overwriting your existing data) I think 
that the former is the most serious and will occur most frequently.

Even though the built-in Palm applications may be simpler than 
Shadow, the philosophy behind the inner workings is what made them 
such a huge success to begin with. In that light (and adopting 
the "Windows paradigm" that a consistent behaviour across all 
applications makes a platform easier to work with) I strongly opt for 
having my modifications saved at all times, unless I explicitly 
cancel or undo them.

Roy.
320

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:52pm
Subject: Re: RE: Shadow Questions

 
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:

> >You can also, on palm, export to DOC now, to do printing and editting, and
> once I add import
> >from DOC, you coudl perhaps import back in, to some extent.
> 
> What do you mean - "you can also, on palm, export to DOC now"?  How?

	Its in 1.5.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
321

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 4:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> I agree with Jim and the other posters on this topic. Auto-saving 
> your work in progress when switching off your device or launching a 
> different application seems to be a fairly common and accepted 
> practice. And I certainly concur that it is at least desirable.

	This has always been the way with Shadow; just switching out while
in details didn't do it, since Shadow wasn't sure of your intention.

	The current alpha has a method to save the detail changes when
exitting, so it shoudln't be a problem in 1.5.

> I (like Joe) often make a little side step to the address book or 
> other applications while working in Shadow (or any other app for that 
> matter) and expect none of my work in progress to be lost.
> 
> Weighing the two "risks" against eachother (loosing information you 
> just entered or inadvertently overwriting your existing data) I think 
> that the former is the most serious and will occur most frequently.

	I've never done it myself; I've always hit "OK" in every
application to return to the main view before switching. I must be a freak
:)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
322

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:15am
Subject: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
> 	I've never done it myself; I've always hit "OK" in
> every application to return to the main view before switching.

I do that too with my Windows applications (even though they will 
start throwing "Are you really really sure?" messages in my face when 
I don't) but on the Palm I've grown accustomed to the fact that I 
don't have to tap away 6 layers of dialogs before I can launch 
MemoPad.

> I must be a freak :)

Nah. just... different! :)

Roy.
323

From: Terry Kyte  <kyte@s...>
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 2:47am
Subject: RE: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
>The current alpha has a method to save the detail changes when
>exitting, so it shoudln't be a problem in 1.5.

When you say "save the detail changes", will it still be in the specific
item detail or note edit mode when switching back to Shadow?  That's would
be my preference.  Also, if I then select Cancel, I would expect it not to
have saved.  I find McPhling/Switchack so handy I'm often switching back and
forth between Shadow & other apps for notes & reference.
324

From: Terry Kyte  <kyte@s...>
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 2:48am
Subject: RE: Re: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
Not necessarily to the top of the screen, but move up enough to see all of
the (collapsed) children.

>I vote to have the selected line at the top of the screen after an
>expand/collapse action.
325

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 3:03am
Subject: RE: Re: The "don't save until I hit done" "feature"

 
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:

> >The current alpha has a method to save the detail changes when
> >exitting, so it shoudln't be a problem in 1.5.
> 
> When you say "save the detail changes", will it still be in the specific
> item detail or note edit mode when switching back to Shadow?  That's would
> be my preference.  Also, if I then select Cancel, I would expect it not to
> have saved.  I find McPhling/Switchack so handy I'm often switching back and
> forth between Shadow & other apps for notes & reference.

	For 1.5, it will save your changes as if you hit OK on the various
screens to do so yourself. I'm runing short of time these days, so I'll
have to implement a better solution after 1.5.0 :(

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
326

From: L Newman  <lnewman@n...>
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 4:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
Yes - move up enough to see!

L
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Kyte <kyte@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 1:48 PM
Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Re: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move
down


> Not necessarily to the top of the screen, but move up enough to see all of
> the (collapsed) children.
>
> >I vote to have the selected line at the top of the screen after an
> >expand/collapse action.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
327

From: kulturhack@a...
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 6:27pm
Subject: Ability to turn list item into a new list

 
I'm a Palm power user, but a relatively new user of ShadowPlan. I'm 
firmly convinced it's final piece in my plan to run my entire magazine 
from a IIIc. With ShadowPlan as the front end to DateBk4, SuperNames, and 
MemoPlus, can world domination, er, continue to elude me? Jeff, if you're 
out there, keep doing a great job; you and Mr. Dewar are quickly becoming 
cyberheroes to me.

Having said that, here are two suggestions for your consideration: How 
about the ability to transform a list item (and attendant children) into 
a new list in and of itself (without cutting and pasting)? And, beyond 
this, the ability to merge two lists (again, without cutting and 
pasting)? These abilities would allow users to do less preplanning with 
regard to database and organization structure and allow more on-the-fly 
small lists that could be merged without undue effort.

Just a thought. Now that I've delurked, I'm braced for the helpful 
respondent that points me to the obscure menu item that I've overlooked. 
If it's not forthcoming, than do consider my suggestions. Thanks.

Kevin Sheridan
328

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:57am
Subject: Re: Ability to turn list item into a new list

 
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 kulturhack@a... wrote:

> from a IIIc. With ShadowPlan as the front end to DateBk4, SuperNames, and 
> MemoPlus, can world domination, er, continue to elude me? Jeff, if you're 
> out there, keep doing a great job; you and Mr. Dewar are quickly becoming 
> cyberheroes to me.

	1.5 will make you smile :)

> Having said that, here are two suggestions for your consideration: How 
> about the ability to transform a list item (and attendant children) into 
> a new list in and of itself (without cutting and pasting)? And, beyond 
> this, the ability to merge two lists (again, without cutting and 
> pasting)? These abilities would allow users to do less preplanning with 
> regard to database and organization structure and allow more on-the-fly 
> small lists that could be merged without undue effort.

	I'm debating a "send to list" feature.. so you can request an item
(and children) go to a new list, or to another list. I've not decided how
much to support this (ie: "Send all checked to..." or is that
rediculous? The main reason for this is that the Archive code has to do it
anyway...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
329

From: Demetrios  <demetrios@c...>
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 54

 
----- Original Message -----
From: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:30 AM
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Digest Number 54



> Message: 1
>    Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:27:53 EST
>    From: kulturhack@a...
> Subject: Ability to turn list item into a new list
>
> I'm a Palm power user, but a relatively new user of ShadowPlan. I'm
> firmly convinced it's final piece in my plan to run my entire magazine
> from a IIIc. With ShadowPlan as the front end to DateBk4, SuperNames, and
> MemoPlus, can world domination, er, continue to elude me? Jeff, if you're
> out there, keep doing a great job; you and Mr. Dewar are quickly becoming
> cyberheroes to me.

    Yeah, don't we wish they were all like those two!!

<SNIP>


>  I'm debating a "send to list" feature.. so you can request an item
> (and children) go to a new list, or to another list. I've not decided how
> much to support this (ie: "Send all checked to..." or is that
> rediculous? The main reason for this is that the Archive code has to do it
> anyway...
>
>   jeff

    No, if it doesn't "cost" too much, in memory or screen space {where
would you put the commands?},  it wouldn't be ridiculous. It'd  be quite
handy. Ummm, while you're at it, is there any way to import into a list? So
that we wouldn't have to create a new list then import it into the one we
wanted it in in the first place. Or would that be a function of that feature
anyway?

Keep up the good work,
Demetrios,
VisionMaster@C...
Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?
330

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:16am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 54

 
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Demetrios wrote:

> > much to support this (ie: "Send all checked to..." or is that
> > rediculous? The main reason for this is that the Archive code has to do it
> > anyway...

>     No, if it doesn't "cost" too much, in memory or screen space {where
> would you put the commands?},  it wouldn't be ridiculous. It'd  be quite
> handy. Ummm, while you're at it, is there any way to import into a list? So
> that we wouldn't have to create a new list then import it into the one we
> wanted it in in the first place. Or would that be a function of that feature
> anyway?

	Depends on your purposes; send-to strikes me as a one shot
deal.. the only advantage over clipping is you don't have to switch lists,
so it may save you time. But then, you might want to just use the clip in
multi mode and just keep copying onto it.. though that can use a lot of
memory.

	Importing I thought woudl be irrelevant ifI supposed send-to, so
you coudl go to lists, and jst send items to the target list. Or maybe
Import is different.. for importing memos and such into an existing
list. Or should I just offer a Merge feature, so you coudl improt using
the existing mechanisms, and then merge the lists. Oh so many options :)

	I'll wait till my head stops spinning from 1.5 before I get into
this :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
331

From: tombishop@q...
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:26am
Subject: Palm find function

 
Is the the Palm find function supposed to find items in Shadow Plan 
1.40?  It does not seem to work for me.
332

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:39am
Subject: Re: Palm find function

 
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 tombishop@q... wrote:

> Is the the Palm find function supposed to find items in Shadow Plan 
> 1.40?  It does not seem to work for me.

	Palm find is supported in 1.5, coming out in a week or so.

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
333

From: Peter R. Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:23am
Subject: Re: Expand to move screen up/Collapse to move down

 
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001  Jeff Mitchell wrote:


<snip>

... I let you guys fight it out and I pick up the remains :)

		jeff

=====
I am not willing to go to war over it, but I much prefer automatic
scrolling to maximize relevant viewable information
334

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:16pm
Subject: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
BETA WARNING!

This is *NOT* a public release. It is released with several specific
intentions in mind, so please read:

(1) I want you guys to have some fun, and you've been waiting 4 or 5 weeks
for this baby :)

(2) This version is the most recent we've been working on in shadow-test:
It *HAS* bugs though they are mostly cosmetic and detailed below. They
will be addressed before public release. However, I need your help to help
nail these bugs down -- if you see an oddity, LET ME KNOW! If something
bad happens, TELL ME!

I want 1.5 to be as super stable as 1.4, and I need YOUR HLEP to get it
that way! Try out all the new options, and all the old ones you assume
always work.. try everything! This version has been in testing for awhile
and is pretty solid.. but I'm hoping the large number of shadow-discuss
users can find more problems so that we won't have them in a week or so
when I go public with this release! So let me know any problems
(especially those not listed here!)

(3) I know you really just want to try it out :) There are now two
official versions: One for everybodu (windows, mac, unix, whatever), and
one for Windows users that includes a simple installer and backup
conduit. (I have no Mac development environment; if anyone knows how to
get me a good deal or loaner, let me know :)

i) Generic release for Win, Mac, Unix, Everyone:
http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-discuss/shadow1416gen.zip

ii) Windows only release (includes installer, conduit, as well as the
normal stuff from the Generic zipfile. Will get much better with time, but
for now.. just run Setup to intall the conduit and Shadow. The manual you
can install yourself as normal)
http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-discuss/shadow1416win.zip

Please let me know which version you are using, and how well they
work. Windows users, please tell me if the installer works well enough for
you, and if your conduit is dumping your lists properly. (It works
properly if you can find your listname.XML files in your user directory
where you have hotsync.exe)

Oustanding issues are thusly:

o DOC export; SmartDOC can't save after loading exported DOC? Let me know
if your DOCs seem incomplete or problematic; tell me your OS version,
machine, and what DOC programs you are using on the DOc file

o Hide masked records (security) -- the new linking types can display
hidden records when "new from..."ing and the like. This will be fixed
before release. It onyl lets you see the first few chars of text, so don't
worry.

o Copy/Paste -- doesn't handle parent auto-check yet
o Address/Memo link add -- needs category and sorting better
o Scrolling down may show the top most partially displayed item at
one-level off what it shoudl be (very minor)
o Addressbook link -- does anyone not see their last address book
item in the link-add box?

Thats it for known issues with 1.4.16; please add to this list any bugs
you find, so I can fix them for 1.5.0!

ENJOY! Get back to me.. don't just silently use it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
335

From: Demetrios  <demetrios@c...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: New From

 
How are the items in the New From popup sorted? It's not by date or alphabetically or anything else I can figure. The first one on the list is St Patrick's day then one from today. If I link to one, then the next time I do a new New From, the address I just linked to in the previous one is moved down the list.

    Just out of curiosity, any plans on making them from memos and/or addresses?

    Did you know that if you make two or more links to the same item in either database, and you change any one of them it changes all of them. Didn't I see you say it wasn't supposed to do that? I like it though, if it's a bug, don't kill it:}

Demetrios, 
VisionMaster@C...
Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
336

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:58pm
Subject: Re: New From

 
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Demetrios wrote:

>     How are the items in the New From popup sorted? It's not by date
> or alphabetically or anything else I can figure. The first one on the
> list is St Patrick's day then one from today. If I link to one, then
> the next time I do a new New From, the address I just linked to in the
> previous one is moved down the list.

	Its displayed by "palm magic order" ;)  The work of sorting a list
(ie: time before display, sluggishness of display, etc) is measurable, so
if I don't need to sort it, I don't. ie: IF a function will be used in
frequentrly, and will work well enough, then why optimize it when other
more important tasks need doing? (like the Program Listing for goto
setting.. most peopel have 20 apps on their unit, and don't sue this more
than 3 or 4 times ever..)

	However, if you're one with tonnes of todos, sorting would be of
value.. so I will be sorting those lists. Addressbook will be sorted for
1.5, but I'm not sure which others will be for 1.5.. likely more for 1.5.5
or something.

>     Just out of curiosity, any plans on making them from memos and/or
> addresses?

	If folks need it. I don't think most people would be doing that,
and certainly linking from a sshadow item to addressbnook, with editting
changes synced, would be bad I think :)

>     Did you know that if you make two or more links to the same item
> in either database, and you change any one of them it changes all of
> them. Didn't I see you say it wasn't supposed to do that? I like it
> though, if it's a bug, don't kill it:}

	No, its supposed to do that. Your'e remembering what I said about
a future shadow to shadow link system, where I would put limits on the
linking..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
337

From: Ken Gordon  <ksg@t...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:48pm
Subject: RE: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
I downloaded the windows version. Can't figure out how to link to addresses.
What am I missing?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: 2001, March, Tuesday 8:17 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!
>
>
>
> BETA WARNING!
>
> This is *NOT* a public release. It is released with several specific
> intentions in mind, so please read:
>
> (1) I want you guys to have some fun, and you've been waiting 4 or 5 weeks
> for this baby :)
>
> (2) This version is the most recent we've been working on in shadow-test:
> It *HAS* bugs though they are mostly cosmetic and detailed below. They
> will be addressed before public release. However, I need your help to help
> nail these bugs down -- if you see an oddity, LET ME KNOW! If something
> bad happens, TELL ME!
>
> I want 1.5 to be as super stable as 1.4, and I need YOUR HLEP to get it
> that way! Try out all the new options, and all the old ones you assume
> always work.. try everything! This version has been in testing for awhile
> and is pretty solid.. but I'm hoping the large number of shadow-discuss
> users can find more problems so that we won't have them in a week or so
> when I go public with this release! So let me know any problems
> (especially those not listed here!)
>
> (3) I know you really just want to try it out :) There are now two
> official versions: One for everybodu (windows, mac, unix, whatever), and
> one for Windows users that includes a simple installer and backup
> conduit. (I have no Mac development environment; if anyone knows how to
> get me a good deal or loaner, let me know :)
>
> i) Generic release for Win, Mac, Unix, Everyone:
> http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-discuss/shadow1416gen.zip
>
> ii) Windows only release (includes installer, conduit, as well as the
> normal stuff from the Generic zipfile. Will get much better with time, but
> for now.. just run Setup to intall the conduit and Shadow. The manual you
> can install yourself as normal)
> http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-discuss/shadow1416win.zip
>
> Please let me know which version you are using, and how well they
> work. Windows users, please tell me if the installer works well enough for
> you, and if your conduit is dumping your lists properly. (It works
> properly if you can find your listname.XML files in your user directory
> where you have hotsync.exe)
>
> Oustanding issues are thusly:
>
> o DOC export; SmartDOC can't save after loading exported DOC? Let me know
> if your DOCs seem incomplete or problematic; tell me your OS version,
> machine, and what DOC programs you are using on the DOc file
>
> o Hide masked records (security) -- the new linking types can display
> hidden records when "new from..."ing and the like. This will be fixed
> before release. It onyl lets you see the first few chars of text, so don't
> worry.
>
> o Copy/Paste -- doesn't handle parent auto-check yet
> o Address/Memo link add -- needs category and sorting better
> o Scrolling down may show the top most partially displayed item at
> one-level off what it shoudl be (very minor)
> o Addressbook link -- does anyone not see their last address book
> item in the link-add box?
>
> Thats it for known issues with 1.4.16; please add to this list any bugs
> you find, so I can fix them for 1.5.0!
>
> ENJOY! Get back to me.. don't just silently use it :)
>
> 		jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
338

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:12pm
Subject: RE: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Ken Gordon wrote:

> I downloaded the windows version. Can't figure out how to link to addresses.
> What am I missing?

	Use the Link Manager; tap on the link arrow (assuming you haven';t
deactivated it in a custom list), and tap on Link Manager; or go into
Details for an item, and tap on Link. The Link Manager has an Add button
that allows you to add links to addressbook and memos.. Once added, you
can expand/collapse those extra links via the link arrow popmenu.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
339

From: Ken Gordon  <ksg@t...>
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:19pm
Subject: RE: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
Thanks.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: 2001, March, Tuesday 1:13 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!
>
>
> On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Ken Gordon wrote:
>
> > I downloaded the windows version. Can't figure out how to link
> to addresses.
> > What am I missing?
>
> 	Use the Link Manager; tap on the link arrow (assuming you haven';t
> deactivated it in a custom list), and tap on Link Manager; or go into
> Details for an item, and tap on Link. The Link Manager has an Add button
> that allows you to add links to addressbook and memos.. Once added, you
> can expand/collapse those extra links via the link arrow popmenu.
>
> 		jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
340

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
So far it has been awesome. Well, I've only been using it for about 
10 minutes now, but just wanted to drop a line. BTW, I've only 
recently been using the HTML export option. We have a corporate 
extranet at my business and lately I've been taking notes with Shadow 
at client meetings and exporting them to HTML to be posted on our 
extranet. Has been working great. More keyboard support would be 
great! :)

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com
341

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:46am
Subject: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released! - Conduit Problem

 
Hi there,

I'm using the windows version with the conduit on my Visor Prism (OS 
3.5.2H). I did a hotsync and got a bunch of XML files in my user 
folder, BUT each file only has one <item>. I don't have your DTD so I 
don't know what I should actually be seeing, but here is an example 
of what I got:

<ShadowPlanFile>
	<filename>ShadP-3. Project Blastoff</filename>
	<header>
		<hhCreateTime>1279983616</hhCreateTime>
	</header>
	<item checked="no" expanded="no" expanded-memo="no" 
priority="0" progress="0">
		<target-time>0</target-time>
		<start-time>0</start-time>
		<finish-time>0</finish-time>
		<note/>
	</item>
</ShadowPlanFile>

BTW, XML is an awesome idea for the conduit. We are using XML 
extensively on our extranet and my Shadow notes are going to 
integrate perfectly! 

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com
342

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> So far it has been awesome. Well, I've only been using it for about 
> 10 minutes now, but just wanted to drop a line. BTW, I've only 
> recently been using the HTML export option. We have a corporate 
> extranet at my business and lately I've been taking notes with Shadow 
> at client meetings and exporting them to HTML to be posted on our 
> extranet. Has been working great. More keyboard support would be 
> great! :)

	Exporting via memo or DOC? DOC exporting is alittle futzy in
1.4.16, so I'm looking for feedback about it. Memo exports should work
great :)  More keyboard support will go in when I can.. just need to
borrow a keyboard :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
343

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released! - Conduit Problem

 
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> I'm using the windows version with the conduit on my Visor Prism (OS 
> 3.5.2H). I did a hotsync and got a bunch of XML files in my user 
> folder, BUT each file only has one <item>. I don't have your DTD so I 
> don't know what I should actually be seeing, but here is an example 
> of what I got:

	One note: The conduit will only be able to properly back up lists
which have been saved by 1.4.5 and greater versions. So you need to open
the list, change *anything* in it (scroll around even), and then close it,
and then the conduit should be able to dump it.

> BTW, XML is an awesome idea for the conduit. We are using XML 
> extensively on our extranet and my Shadow notes are going to 
> integrate perfectly! 

	Great :) XML makes my life harder, but I think it will pay off for
everyone in the end. It certainly makes life more fun for savvy XMLers :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
344

From: Demetrios  <demetrios@c...>
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:08pm
Subject: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> Please let me know which version you are using, and how well they
> work. Windows users, please tell me if the installer works well enough for
> you, and if your conduit is dumping your lists properly. (It works
> properly if you can find your listname.XML files in your user directory
> where you have hotsync.exe)

   They're all where they're supposed to be. Used the Windows installer, which works well. BTW, your P's are missing on the installation background.

> 
> Oustanding issues are thusly:
> 
> o DOC export; SmartDOC can't save after loading exported DOC? Let me know
> if your DOCs seem incomplete or problematic; tell me your OS version,
> machine, and what DOC programs you are using on the DOc file

   I STILL can't get the export to work on half of my lists. 

1) It seems that only 11mgs can be exported at a time {or that could just be coincidence}.

2) There is odd stuff at the end of the trunticated Docs. *See Attachment

3) HotSync crashes Every time it gets to those Docs. The ones that exported did OK.

I've got a PalmIIIxe OS3.5 and I'm using WordSmith to read with. AportisDoc can't even recognize them.

Demetrios, 
VisionMaster@C...
Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?




  ----------

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Plugin written by The Grand Design and Synergy Solutions, Inc..
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345

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Demetrios wrote:

> > Please let me know which version you are using, and how well they
> > work. Windows users, please tell me if the installer works well enough for
> > you, and if your conduit is dumping your lists properly. (It works
> > properly if you can find your listname.XML files in your user directory
> > where you have hotsync.exe)
> 
>    They're all where they're supposed to be. Used the Windows installer, which works well. BTW, your P's are missing on the installation background.

	What do you mean? Does it say "Shadowlan for almos" or something?

> > Oustanding issues are thusly:
> > 
> > o DOC export; SmartDOC can't save after loading exported DOC? Let me know
> > if your DOCs seem incomplete or problematic; tell me your OS version,
> > machine, and what DOC programs you are using on the DOc file
> 
>    I STILL can't get the export to work on half of my lists. 

	No surprise; I didnt' update it for 1.4.16; Neal sent me a couple
of lists .. one which crashes on erxport toi doc, and one which doesn't
fully export; very odd looking issue in there, so once I get some time, I
think I'll have the DOC issues licked..

> 1) It seems that only 11mgs can be exported at a time {or that could
> just be coincidence}.

	mgs? 11k you mean?

> 2) There is odd stuff at the end of the trunticated Docs. *See Attachment
> 
> 3) HotSync crashes Every time it gets to those Docs. The ones that
> exported did OK.

	yeah, they're probably screwed up files.. so delete them if they
fail to export. Standard palm delete should work.

> I've got a PalmIIIxe OS3.5 and I'm using WordSmith to read with.
> AportisDoc can't even recognize them.

	What do you mean? Aportis doc doens't list they even exist? If so,
I cant' help it.. looks like DOC "creator ids" aren't well standardized :/

		jeff
346

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:15pm
Subject: Conduit Working

 
Yep, I did as you suggested and they all hotsynched perfectly now. I 
just had a lot of lists to go through! I have been exporting to HTML 
as memos. I haven't tried the DOC feature yet, but will be checking 
it out soon. For me, XML is perfect. You've done an awesome job on 
the export features, covering just about any option possible that 
people would want: XML, tab & space delimited, HTML, and DOC-WOW! 
Hmm, and I just noticed the "pretty" option, very, well, "pretty" :)

This version is looking really killer. Keep up the awesome work! If 
you live in the Los Angele/Orange County area, you can borrow my 
keyboard!

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com

> 
> 	One note: The conduit will only be able to properly back up 
lists
> which have been saved by 1.4.5 and greater versions. So you need to 
open
> the list, change *anything* in it (scroll around even), and then 
close it,
> and then the conduit should be able to dump it.
> 
> > BTW, XML is an awesome idea for the conduit. We are using XML 
> > extensively on our extranet and my Shadow notes are going to 
> > integrate perfectly! 
> 
> 	Great :) XML makes my life harder, but I think it will pay 
off for
> everyone in the end. It certainly makes life more fun for savvy 
XMLers :)
> 
> 		jeff
>
347

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Conduit Working

 
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> just had a lot of lists to go through! I have been exporting to HTML 
> as memos. I haven't tried the DOC feature yet, but will be checking 
> it out soon. For me, XML is perfect. You've done an awesome job on 
> the export features, covering just about any option possible that 
> people would want: XML, tab & space delimited, HTML, and DOC-WOW! 
> Hmm, and I just noticed the "pretty" option, very, well, "pretty" :)

	Someone requested the pretty option a week or two ago, and then to
show they liked it, sent an email using it. Was pretty cool :) I
personally only am intereste din HTML and Tab exports, likely via
DOC. Though DOC stuff is a little broken right now, for many people, but
I'm hoping to have it all fixed up before I let 1.5.0 out of the bag.

	So all in all, 1.4.16 is pretty solid and everyone likes it?

> This version is looking really killer. Keep up the awesome work! If 
> you live in the Los Angele/Orange County area, you can borrow my 
> keyboard!

	Toronto Canada actually :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
348

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:47pm
Subject: Re: Conduit Working

 
> 	Someone requested the pretty option a week or two ago, and 
then to
> show they liked it, sent an email using it. Was pretty cool :) I
> personally only am intereste din HTML and Tab exports, likely via
> DOC. Though DOC stuff is a little broken right now, for many 
people, but
> I'm hoping to have it all fixed up before I let 1.5.0 out of the 
bag.


Yep, about the same for me. I am pretty much just interested in the 
HTML and XML options, which are extremely flexible.


> 
> 	So all in all, 1.4.16 is pretty solid and everyone likes it?

Love it so far!

> 	Toronto Canada actually :)
> 
> 		jeff

Hmm, I've got a cousin in Toronto (Missisauga (spelling?) area). 
Maybe she's got a keyboard! :)

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com
349

From: Demetrios  <demetrios@c...>
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:13am
Subject: Paste Items into a Note?

 
Is there a quick and painless way to take the text from multiple items and paste it into a note? The multiclip doesn't work in notes.

TIA,
Demetrios, 
VisionMaster@C...
Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
350

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 3:34am
Subject: Re: Paste Items into a Note?

 
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Demetrios wrote:

>     Is there a quick and painless way to take the text from multiple
> items and paste it into a note? The multiclip doesn't work in notes.

	Not really; the clip/multiclip operates on whole items; the palm
text clipboard works with text. Theres no easy way for the system to know
if you hit paste if you wish to paste text, or paste items (the two
clipboards co-exist). Also.. how would the multiclip items be transferred
to notes? As html? As export formats? Its tough..

	It seems an unusual need?

	You could export to memo, then open the memo, cop the stuff you
need, then paste it into the note?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
351

From: Demetrios  <demetrios@c...>
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:32am
Subject: Re: Paste Items into a Note?

 
Do you realize this came in with no text?

Demetrios

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Paste Items into a Note?


>
352

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Paste Items into a Note?

 
On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Demetrios wrote:

>     Do you realize this came in with no text?

	Strange. Something screwed up somewhere, then :P

	In essence, I said that the text-clip is separate from the
object-clip; text is done by palmos, and objects by shadow. Mixing them is
ugly and not needed too often I imagine. It seemed the best thing to do
woudl be to export to memos, and then Copy the stuff desired, flip back to
shadow, and paste it in...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
353

From: frazure@m...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:31pm
Subject: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
Jeff -

I installed the beta windows only version.  The Hot-sync operation 
ended prematurely and created the GPF for HotSync:

HOTSYNC caused an invalid page fault in
module KERNEL32.DLL at 0157:bff79ff0.
Registers:
EAX=102092e0 CS=0157 EIP=bff79ff0 EFLGS=00010206
EBX=0071fe28 SS=015f ESP=00620000 EBP=00620020
ECX=00621ddc DS=015f ESI=00000001 FS=0ff7
EDX=00000001 ES=015f EDI=8387d20c GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
53 85 d2 56 57 89 65 e8 75 04 33 c0 eb 54 85 c0 
Stack dump:
102092e0 00000001 0071fe28 102092e0 00621ddc bffb88a8 bff781c8 
ffffffff 00621dec bff7b3ef 102092e0 00000001 10209401 102092e0 
00621e30 10209320 


The new version of Shadow installed, but the problem recurs every 
time I hot sync.


Any ideas?  Does this help?

Mike
354

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
Try this: Open each of your lists on the palm; make sure to change
it, then close it (thus causing a new save). So check something, and then
uncheck it again (back to where it was), or othersimilar do-nothign
changes. Then when you close the list, Shadow will save due to changes.

	Save each list. Then try a hotsync.

	The conduit cannot stync files not saved with the current
version; however, it apparently (rarely) cancrash on a unconverted list,
instead of just ignoring it.

		jeff

On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 frazure@m... wrote:

> Jeff -
> 
> I installed the beta windows only version.  The Hot-sync operation 
> ended prematurely and created the GPF for HotSync:
> 
> HOTSYNC caused an invalid page fault in
> module KERNEL32.DLL at 0157:bff79ff0.
> Registers:
> EAX=102092e0 CS=0157 EIP=bff79ff0 EFLGS=00010206
> EBX=0071fe28 SS=015f ESP=00620000 EBP=00620020
> ECX=00621ddc DS=015f ESI=00000001 FS=0ff7
> EDX=00000001 ES=015f EDI=8387d20c GS=0000
> Bytes at CS:EIP:
> 53 85 d2 56 57 89 65 e8 75 04 33 c0 eb 54 85 c0 
> Stack dump:
> 102092e0 00000001 0071fe28 102092e0 00621ddc bffb88a8 bff781c8 
> ffffffff 00621dec bff7b3ef 102092e0 00000001 10209401 102092e0 
> 00621e30 10209320 
> 
> 
> The new version of Shadow installed, but the problem recurs every 
> time I hot sync.
> 
> 
> Any ideas?  Does this help?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
355

From: frazure@m...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Shadow BETA 1.4.16 Released!

 
Thanks, Jeff.  The instruction worked.  

The export to DOC, the universal find, and the address look up all 
work great.  

Mike

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Try this: Open each of your lists on the palm; make sure to 
change
> it, then close it (thus causing a new save). So check something, 
and then
> uncheck it again (back to where it was), or othersimilar do-nothign
> changes. Then when you close the list, Shadow will save due to 
changes.
> 
> 	Save each list. Then try a hotsync.
> 
> 	The conduit cannot stync files not saved with the current
> version; however, it apparently (rarely) cancrash on a unconverted 
list,
> instead of just ignoring it.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 frazure@m... wrote:
> 
> > Jeff -
> > 
> > I installed the beta windows only version.  The Hot-sync 
operation 
> > ended prematurely and created the GPF for HotSync:
> > 
> > The new version of Shadow installed, but the problem recurs every 
> > time I hot sync.
> > 
> > 
> > Any ideas?  Does this help?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
356

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:18pm
Subject: Hotsync Error

 
Ever since this morning, everytime my Visor Prism is doing and it 
gets to Shadow, after a few seconds I get a hotsync error and hotsync 
gets cancelled:

HotSync Error: Unknown error.  (FFFE)

I did a reset and that didn't change anything. All of my memos have 
been saved with the new version. What is interesting that all of my 
lists were actually synced to my desktop, so apparently some error 
occurs at the end.

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com
357

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Hotsync Error

 
Should there be additional hotsync conduits firing off, or are you
just seeing an error FFFE harmlessly?

	Let me check..

	Ahh, that implies..

	Does one or more of your lists have an illegal character in the
name? ie: On DOS and Windows you cannot have / or . or some other weirc
characters in your Shaodw filenames, or else the conduit cannot back them
up. You'll get a conduit error, but the conduit should continue in its
way.. an informational error. Perhaps its stopping other hotsyncs from
occuring?

	But check your filenames.. that error implies the conduit couldn't
open up a file to write to it..

		jeff

On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> Ever since this morning, everytime my Visor Prism is doing and it 
> gets to Shadow, after a few seconds I get a hotsync error and hotsync 
> gets cancelled:
> 
> HotSync Error: Unknown error.  (FFFE)
> 
> I did a reset and that didn't change anything. All of my memos have 
> been saved with the new version. What is interesting that all of my 
> lists were actually synced to my desktop, so apparently some error 
> occurs at the end.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Tamim Azizadah
> www.twinmoons.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
358

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Hotsync Error

 
I will check it out. I did create a few new lists so that is a 
possibility. Also, while we're talking about filenames, when you 
create a new list and if you don't put a file name in the preferences 
dialog box that comes up, it just kicks you out. Perhaps a message 
saying: "Please enter a filename" would be better? 

Best Regards,

Tamim
www.twinmoons.com

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Should there be additional hotsync conduits firing off, or 
are you
> just seeing an error FFFE harmlessly?
> 
> 	Let me check..
> 
> 	Ahh, that implies..
> 
> 	Does one or more of your lists have an illegal character in 
the
> name? ie: On DOS and Windows you cannot have / or . or some other 
weirc
> characters in your Shaodw filenames, or else the conduit cannot 
back them
> up. You'll get a conduit error, but the conduit should continue in 
its
> way.. an informational error. Perhaps its stopping other hotsyncs 
from
> occuring?
> 
> 	But check your filenames.. that error implies the conduit 
couldn't
> open up a file to write to it..
> 
> 		jeff
>
359

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hotsync Error

 
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> I will check it out. I did create a few new lists so that is a 
> possibility. Also, while we're talking about filenames, when you 
> create a new list and if you don't put a file name in the preferences 
> dialog box that comes up, it just kicks you out. Perhaps a message 
> saying: "Please enter a filename" would be better? 

	Maybe; I always figured that was just the same as hitting cancel,
myself...

	btw.. Shadow 1.4 and later try and block you from creating bad
filenames.. but maybe there are some characters that slip through that
prevent the conduit for writing..

		jeff

> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Tamim
> www.twinmoons.com
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > 	Should there be additional hotsync conduits firing off, or 
> are you
> > just seeing an error FFFE harmlessly?
> > 
> > 	Let me check..
> > 
> > 	Ahh, that implies..
> > 
> > 	Does one or more of your lists have an illegal character in 
> the
> > name? ie: On DOS and Windows you cannot have / or . or some other 
> weirc
> > characters in your Shaodw filenames, or else the conduit cannot 
> back them
> > up. You'll get a conduit error, but the conduit should continue in 
> its
> > way.. an informational error. Perhaps its stopping other hotsyncs 
> from
> > occuring?
> > 
> > 	But check your filenames.. that error implies the conduit 
> couldn't
> > open up a file to write to it..
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
360

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Hotsync error - fixed

 
Yep, you were absolutely right. One of my new filenames had a 
question mark in it! Changed the name and it's working fine now.

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com
361

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Hotsync error - fixed

 
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> Yep, you were absolutely right. One of my new filenames had a 
> question mark in it! Changed the name and it's working fine now.

	Ahh! Good point.

	I shall have to strip that in the future, and make saving shadow
lists lose those characters. A shame to lose the ? though :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
362

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:47pm
Subject: Re: Hotsync error - fixed

 
Sad as it is, I think we'll be able to make it without the ? :) Or 
will we?<---

Best Regards,

Tamim
www.twinmoons.com

> 	Ahh! Good point.
> 
> 	I shall have to strip that in the future, and make saving 
shadow
> lists lose those characters. A shame to lose the ? though :/
> 
> 		jeff
>
363

From: Demetrios  <demetrios@c...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:06pm
Subject: Chronologically Related

 
Is there any way to have two or more items be specifically related, timewise? In other words, if B happens the day after A, but the day before C and I don't know yet what day A happens on. It'd be nice if I could set up the relationship and then, when I do divine the day, I just assign A to that day and Shadow sets the dates for B & C automatically {then inserts all the todos on the appropriate days would be nice too, but I figure that'd be asking a bit much, huh?}.

Demetrios, 
VisionMaster@C...
Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
364

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: Chronologically Related

 
Relative days aren't supported yet. I guess its time to start
defining a project management module for a couple months from now :)

		jeff

On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Demetrios wrote:

>     Is there any way to have two or more items be specifically
> related, timewise? In other words, if B happens the day after A, but
> the day before C and I don't know yet what day A happens on. It'd be
> nice if I could set up the relationship and then, when I do divine the
> day, I just assign A to that day and Shadow sets the dates for B & C
> automatically {then inserts all the todos on the appropriate days
> would be nice too, but I figure that'd be asking a bit much, huh?}.
> 
> Demetrios, 
> VisionMaster@C...
> Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
365

From: johnlill2@y...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:09pm
Subject: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
OK Shadow users - I am trying to decide what outliner to use. I'm 
looking at Progect, Bonsai, and ShadowPlan. I kind of like Bonsai and 
Progect better than Shadow, but I must be missing something. You 
Shadow users all rave about the product so either it's better that it 
appears to me or you're all crazy! (I suspect it's the 1st option :)) 
Anyway, one thing that seems to be missing is the option to display 
due dates. Is that option available? Also, I'm sure many of you have 
gone through the same evaluation process I am going through. What 
made you decide on Shadow? It looks like the support is top-notch, 
but so is that from Natara (Bonsai).

Can you convince me to go with Shadow?

Thanks!!

John
366

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:19pm
Subject: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 johnlill2@y... wrote:

> Progect better than Shadow, but I must be missing something. You 
> Shadow users all rave about the product so either it's better that it 
> appears to me or you're all crazy! (I suspect it's the 1st option :)) 
> Anyway, one thing that seems to be missing is the option to display 
> due dates. Is that option available? Also, I'm sure many of you have 

	Turn your list type into a custom list, then turn on whatever
columns and widgets you like; due date is a optional column. Thats one
reasont o use Shadow -- you can define your own views ;)

> gone through the same evaluation process I am going through. What 
> made you decide on Shadow? It looks like the support is top-notch, 
> but so is that from Natara (Bonsai).
> Can you convince me to go with Shadow?

	I'll leave this for my users.. but Shadow is probably the most
feature packed of the outliners on the palm. Bonsai has desktop support,
of which Shadow 1.5.0 (a week away) has onyl a backup to XML conduit. Soon
more desktop support is coming, though.

	Shadow is more open than the rest.. XML based conduit, open source
conduits coming out, java based cross platform desktop app. The most
flexible linking of any outliner (see 1.5.0, or betas are available if
your'e curious). Lots of export options.

	I can go into details if you need, but I'll let the users have
first crack ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
367

From: johnlill2@y...
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:44pm
Subject: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
Jeff,

If your response time is typical, your product support ranks right up 
there with the best! Thanks for the tip - I like Shadow better 
already. I'll wait to see what other responses I get.

John L
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Turn your list type into a custom list, then turn on whatever
> columns and widgets you like; due date is a optional column. Thats 
one
> reasont o use Shadow -- you can define your own views ;)
>
368

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:49am
Subject: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
I came to Shadow as a Progect user...  although it is a good 
outliner, it didn't do many of the things I wanted.  I can do 
everything in Shadow that I ever did in Progect, and a whole lot 
more.  (And this was before ver 1.4.x)  

Compare if you will, the linking aspect.  Progect always had funky 
linking.  It created a separate list of linkable objects, which you 
could access by  leaving your current list, opening the link list, 
and (if I remember correctly) copying that link to paste in your 
current list.  Now that Shadow has links to address and memo, it is 
extremely versatile in its ability to link many different ways, all 
of which work just like my workflow expects.

I also like the color support, bold font which allows me to 
prioritise tasks at a glance.

The multi-item clip is also a nice touch for duplicating parts of 
lists.  (Although to be fair, I do use MultiClipHack, and could do 
without it - but the shadow clipboard works much cleaner, IMHO)

I think the aspect that I like most is the note field.  I really like 
being able to expand and see my notes under each task in the list.  
It makes notes, which I use extensively, very user-friendly, as 
opposed to having to open the task, then open the note.

I could go on, but, since it's shareware, I advise you to try it.  I 
suspect that you will not go back to Progect.  


tommyb


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., johnlill2@y... wrote:
> Jeff,
> 
> If your response time is typical, your product support ranks right 
up 
> there with the best! Thanks for the tip - I like Shadow better 
> already. I'll wait to see what other responses I get.
> 
> John L
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 	Turn your list type into a custom list, then turn on whatever
> > columns and widgets you like; due date is a optional column. 
Thats 
> one
> > reasont o use Shadow -- you can define your own views ;)
> >
369

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Sat Mar 17, 2001 2:47am
Subject: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
OK, first off, you should use Shadow because it is simply AWESOME! 
But on a subjective side, it is perhaps the most versatile outliner 
I've seen anywhere. The export options are awesome (HTML, XML, DOC, 
etc.) and it is amazingly flexible. But best of all, Jeff's support 
is fantastic (right up there with Paul Nevai for pedit and 
laptophack). Also, he definitely has the right direction for this 
product (XML is an excellent example) and works hard taking into 
consideration user input. 

I don't know what else to say other than to encourage you try Shadow 
and see for yourself. At the surface it may seem very simple, but as 
you dig deeper you will discover how powerful and flexible it is. 
Maybe all of us Shadow users are crazy, but we love our Shadow and so 
will you!

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., johnlill2@y... wrote:
> OK Shadow users - I am trying to decide what outliner to use. I'm 
> looking at Progect, Bonsai, and ShadowPlan. I kind of like Bonsai 
and 
> Progect better than Shadow, but I must be missing something. You 
> Shadow users all rave about the product so either it's better that 
it 
> appears to me or you're all crazy! (I suspect it's the 1st 
option :)) 
> Anyway, one thing that seems to be missing is the option to display 
> due dates. Is that option available? Also, I'm sure many of you 
have 
> gone through the same evaluation process I am going through. What 
> made you decide on Shadow? It looks like the support is top-notch, 
> but so is that from Natara (Bonsai).
> 
> Can you convince me to go with Shadow?
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> John
370

From: frazure@m...
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: DOC Exporting Beta Bug Report

 
Earlier, Jeff, you mentioned:

>>Exporting via memo or DOC? DOC exporting is alittle futzy in
>1.4.16, so I'm looking for feedback about it. Memo exports should 
>work
>great :)  

The DOC export works on the first list to be exported; but at the end 
of the DOC when using "Smoothie" to read, there is a Fatal 
Exception.  The second list exported to DOC causes an immediate 
freeze when the DOC is opened.

The Export to Memo doesn't cause either of these.  

By the way, the Pretty formatting is great!!

Mike
371

From: frazure@m...
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:52pm
Subject: Re: DOC Exporting Beta Bug Report

 
More>>>>

Palm OS 3.0; Reader is Smoothie.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., frazure@m... wrote:
> Earlier, Jeff, you mentioned:
> 
> >>Exporting via memo or DOC? DOC exporting is alittle futzy in
> >1.4.16, so I'm looking for feedback about it. Memo exports should 
> >work
> >great :)  
> 
> The DOC export works on the first list to be exported; but at the 
end 
> of the DOC when using "Smoothie" to read, there is a Fatal 
> Exception.  The second list exported to DOC causes an immediate 
> freeze when the DOC is opened.
> 
> The Export to Memo doesn't cause either of these.  
> 
> By the way, the Pretty formatting is great!!
> 
> Mike
372

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 18, 2001 4:02pm
Subject: Re: DOC Exporting Beta Bug Report

 
On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 frazure@m... wrote:

> >>Exporting via memo or DOC? DOC exporting is alittle futzy in
> >1.4.16, so I'm looking for feedback about it. Memo exports should 
> >work
> >great :)  
> 
> The DOC export works on the first list to be exported; but at the end 
> of the DOC when using "Smoothie" to read, there is a Fatal 
> Exception.  The second list exported to DOC causes an immediate 
> freeze when the DOC is opened.

	OKay, thanks. Someone sent me some shadow lists that cause these
sorts of things. I'll put out a fix within the next day or two, so we can
see how she goes. Once export to DOC is working, and some other minor
improvements, I think I can let 1.5.0 out.

> The Export to Memo doesn't cause either of these.  
> By the way, the Pretty formatting is great!!

	Glad you like it! Last minute suggestion by someone in Shadow-test
:)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
373

From: siggi@i...
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 9:47am
Subject: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
More features, see for your self.
Much better linking.
Great support
Fast development, with emp. on user wishlist. (Progect was very good 
at the time, but suddenly everything just stopped over there).
Very, very interesting future focus; project management among others.
Open standard Conduit in development.

I've tried them all, in my mind there is no competition at this 
moment.

sh
374

From: Doug Roberts  <doug@b...>
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 3:49pm
Subject: RE: Conduit Working

 
How do I view the XML file created by the conduit? Exporer opens it as
source as does Word.

Thanks for the help.

-Doug Roberts

-----Original Message-----
From: elfinger@v... [mailto:elfinger@v...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 11:16 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Conduit Working


Yep, I did as you suggested and they all hotsynched perfectly now. I
just had a lot of lists to go through! I have been exporting to HTML
as memos. I haven't tried the DOC feature yet, but will be checking
it out soon. For me, XML is perfect. You've done an awesome job on
the export features, covering just about any option possible that
people would want: XML, tab & space delimited, HTML, and DOC-WOW!
Hmm, and I just noticed the "pretty" option, very, well, "pretty" :)

This version is looking really killer. Keep up the awesome work! If
you live in the Los Angele/Orange County area, you can borrow my
keyboard!

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com

>
> 	One note: The conduit will only be able to properly back up
lists
> which have been saved by 1.4.5 and greater versions. So you need to
open
> the list, change *anything* in it (scroll around even), and then
close it,
> and then the conduit should be able to dump it.
>
> > BTW, XML is an awesome idea for the conduit. We are using XML
> > extensively on our extranet and my Shadow notes are going to
> > integrate perfectly!
>
> 	Great :) XML makes my life harder, but I think it will pay
off for
> everyone in the end. It certainly makes life more fun for savvy
XMLers :)
>
> 		jeff
>




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375

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:31pm
Subject: RE: Conduit Working

 
On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Doug Roberts wrote:

> How do I view the XML file created by the conduit? Exporer opens it as
> source as does Word.

	You want to vbiew the XML in a more usable fashion?

	Anyone have any neat tricks?

	So far, people have used XSLT sheets to convert the XML into more
human useful forms. I'll release a Windows app in 2 weeks or somesuch that
will allow you to convert a Shadow XML file into HTML or RTF. That ought
to be very useful for you :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
376

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 5:51pm
Subject: Re: Conduit Working

 
I've been using XSLT sheets to transform the XML to HTML pages. 

Best Regards,

Tamim
www.twinmoons.com


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Doug Roberts wrote:
> 
> > How do I view the XML file created by the conduit? Exporer opens 
it as
> > source as does Word.
> 
> 	You want to vbiew the XML in a more usable fashion?
> 
> 	Anyone have any neat tricks?
> 
> 	So far, people have used XSLT sheets to convert the XML into 
more
> human useful forms. I'll release a Windows app in 2 weeks or 
somesuch that
> will allow you to convert a Shadow XML file into HTML or RTF. That 
ought
> to be very useful for you :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
377

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Conduit Working

 
If you're wondering why I don't use the export feature to HTML, it's 
because it's much faster converting the XML to HTML with the 
stylesheets. I dump the XML files on our extranet where a java 
application converts them to HTML.

Best Regards,

Tamim
www.twinmoons.com
378

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Re: Conduit Working

 
On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 elfinger@v... wrote:

> If you're wondering why I don't use the export feature to HTML, it's 
> because it's much faster converting the XML to HTML with the 
> stylesheets. I dump the XML files on our extranet where a java 
> application converts them to HTML.

	Thats why I used XML alright.. its way better to convert on a
desktop, than going through memos. I will be supplying translators from
XML to RTF and HTML in a couple of weeks.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
379

From: chodges@f...
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 10:28pm
Subject: Question about Exporting

 
Jeff:

I was wondering if you are going to provide the option to export not 
only a list but also things like the target, start and finish dates.
Right now I'm exporting from Shadow into MemoPad in HTML format and 
publishing the HTML for my organization to look.  Its our Project Plan 
for our software app.  It would be great to be able to publish it with 
the expected dates also.

BTW - Shadow is an excellent tool and I wish you all the best for 
version 1.5.0!!!

Christopher Hodges
380

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Question about Exporting

 
On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 chodges@f... wrote:

> I was wondering if you are going to provide the option to export not 
> only a list but also things like the target, start and finish dates.
> Right now I'm exporting from Shadow into MemoPad in HTML format and 
> publishing the HTML for my organization to look.  Its our Project Plan 
> for our software app.  It would be great to be able to publish it with 
> the expected dates also.

	My offer stands -- someone define exactly how the layout should be
in html, text, and pretty, and I'll add it ;) Formatting the html in memo
exports implies just simple text; but for html there are many
options.. shoudl the dates be next line, next field in a table, what? I'm
just not sure how it shoudl be done. So I've ignored it for now ;)

	The XML -> HTML conversion will include much more (generate a
directory on your pc, including some gifs and html and such.. all ready to
go..)

> BTW - Shadow is an excellent tool and I wish you all the best for 
> version 1.5.0!!!

	Thanks. You'll see it very soon! (just a couple of days)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
381

From: John Lill  <johnlill2@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 0:17am
Subject: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
Ok - I give up! I just registered Shadow. After just a few days, I 
like it a lot and can see it will become very valuable after some 
more exploring. Progect seems to be at a standstill but Shadow keeps 
on improving(I spent some time reading archives in this group!). I do 
like Bonsai (Natara's support is great, too). But Shadow seems a 
little more flexible.

One complaint for Jeff - Most products that I end up buying had a 
full-featured trial version that would cease functioning or had some 
features disabled after that time. It never took me 30 days to 
decide. I registered after just a few days once I knew the product 
met my needs. But Shadow's 24 item limit per list did not give me the 
opportunity to try it with a couple of projects  and checklists that 
I will be using the product with. I think a fully functioning demo 
that stops working after a period of time gives a much better idea of 
the product. I can deal with the reminder messages if I can fully try 
out a product.

Thanks very much to those of you who responded to my question.

John
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., siggi@i... wrote:
> More features, see for your self.
> Much better linking.
> Great support
> Fast development, with emp. on user wishlist. (Progect was very 
good 
> at the time, but suddenly everything just stopped over there).
> Very, very interesting future focus; project management among 
others.
> Open standard Conduit in development.
> 
> I've tried them all, in my mind there is no competition at this 
> moment.
> 
> sh
382

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:55am
Subject: Re: Re: Tell me why I should use Shadow Plan

 
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, John Lill wrote:

> features disabled after that time. It never took me 30 days to 
> decide. I registered after just a few days once I knew the product 
> met my needs. But Shadow's 24 item limit per list did not give me the 
> opportunity to try it with a couple of projects  and checklists that 
> I will be using the product with. I think a fully functioning demo 
> that stops working after a period of time gives a much better idea of 
> the product. I can deal with the reminder messages if I can fully try 
> out a product.

	I thought about it, but too many people know how to undo the
xx-day timeout (its almost so easy anyone can do it ;). I want shadow to
be useful, and it is easy to work around the size limit (and I won't say
how, but I was being very safe and careful about not hurting the user
through the cripple). I thought it might also encourage the user to play
with cut and paste, linking to other shadow files, and such.

	Overall it seems to have worked without limiting people too
much; they can have as many lists as they like of course :)

	Welcome aboard, and be sure to get 1.5.0 when it comes out in a
day or two..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
383

From: chodges@f...
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:48am
Subject: Re: Question about Exporting

 
My offer stands -- someone define exactly 
how the layout should be
> in html, text, and pretty, and I'll add it ;) 
Formatting the html in memo
> exports implies just simple text; but for html 
there are many
> options.. shoudl the dates be next line, next 
field in a table, what? I'm
> just not sure how it shoudl be done. So I've 
ignored it for now ;)
> 

For me the layout should be something like this:

* Version 1.1  - Target 3/15/2001
   - New features
       -  Implement new reports - Target 3/01/2001
       -  Add progress bar - Target 3/05/2001

and so on.....

This way if a person uses the tool to keep a 
project plan together they can publish the tasks 
and the due dates to the rest of the organization.

My manager is asking me for dates for my project 
and I would love to be able to quickly generate all 
of his information this way.

Thanks,

Christopher Hodges
384

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Question about Exporting

 
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 chodges@f... wrote:

> My manager is asking me for dates for my project 
> and I would love to be able to quickly generate all 
> of his information this way.

	OKay, hows about this -- I'll let 1.5.0 out the door as is (just
some minor fixes over 1.4.17). Then you remind me say thursday or friday
about this and I'll put in something quick for the export formatters, and
you can have that as an alpha. If everyone likes it, it stays, otherwise
w'ell fight it out how to change it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
385

From: chodges@f...
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:23pm
Subject: Re: Question about Exporting

 
> 
> 	OKay, hows about this -- I'll let 1.5.0 out 
the door as is (just
> some minor fixes over 1.4.17). Then you remind me 
say thursday or friday
> about this and I'll put in something quick for 
the export formatters, and
> you can have that as an alpha. If everyone likes 
it, it stays, otherwise
> w'ell fight it out how to change it.
> 
> 		jeff

That sounds great to me!!!

Chris
386

From: chodges@f...
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:53pm
Subject: Question about XML Format with Conduit

 
Jeff:

I installed the latest build of Shadow 1.4.16 and it works great!! 
Another fine update for your excellent program.  I do have one 
question though about the XML that is generated via the conduit.  I 
noticed that the dates are not transmitted in standard MM/DD/YY format 
but rather appear as if they're in milliseconds since 1970 or 
something.  Here's an example:

<item checked="no" expanded="yes" expanded-memo="no" priority="0" 
progress="0">
      <title>New features</title>
      <target-time>3069360000</target-time>
      <start-time>3064176000</start-time>
      <finish-time>0</finish-time>


Can you explain why the dates look like that?

Thanks,

Christopher Hodges
387

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:22pm
Subject: Re: Question about XML Format with Conduit

 
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 chodges@f... wrote:

> I installed the latest build of Shadow 1.4.16 and it works great!! 
> Another fine update for your excellent program.  I do have one 
> question though about the XML that is generated via the conduit.  I 
> noticed that the dates are not transmitted in standard MM/DD/YY format 
> but rather appear as if they're in milliseconds since 1970 or 
> something.  Here's an example:
> 
> <item checked="no" expanded="yes" expanded-memo="no" priority="0" 
> progress="0">
>       <title>New features</title>
>       <target-time>3069360000</target-time>
>       <start-time>3064176000</start-time>
>       <finish-time>0</finish-time>

	yeah; I've not defined the date format yet; I like to be exact,
and numbers are better to work with in software since you can add and
subtract and not worry about silly things like daylight sdavings, months,
years, etc. What my plan is it to have it look like:

	<target-time human-hint="02-05-2000">3069360000</target-time> or
somesuch. This way I can encode a hint and the real number. The hint must
be untrsusted -- the conduit will set i right, but any other apps may
screw it up. But it ought to help a lot..

> Can you explain why the dates look like that?

	Much more flexible. ie: Software cannot easily work with human
readable dates. unix-time or julian-seconds or other numbering systems are
way easier. But for human sake, I'll make a useful encoding. For the
human-hint, though, I'll need to use a simple standard.. I dont' want to
worry about country for it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
388

From: Jeff Arnfield  <jarnfiel@l...>
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:29pm
Subject: Re: ECCO, & Shadow ramblings

 
I've been using a Palm in combination with Ecco since 1996 (Palm 
1000, upgraded to 1 MB; finally died about 2 months ago).  I found it 
took a lot of planning and discipline for me to develop a useful info 
management template and stick to it, but it was almost always 
worthwhile.

I've actually stuck with Ecco despite it's limbo status.  Currently my 
contact, appointment and todo stuff goes in Ecco, along with common 
reference notes.  I love the link between appts & contacts, and the 
simplicity with which I can create outlines that contain notes, 
todos, appts, etc.    Biggest downside to Ecco for me now is that the 
HotSync version that works with it is not nearly as flexible as the 
newer versions, and I've been unable to make the new HotSyncManager 
sync my Ecco files.  Thus, I am now trying hard to find a decent 
replacement.  Afraid I may need to go Outlook for contact/appt, but 
the search for outlining led me to Shadow.  I'm torn between Shadow 
and ThoughtManager for outlining & notes.

Shadow offers more features than TM, and I like Jeff's approach to 
development.  The ability to access, manipulate and create content on 
the PC is critical for me.  With a good desktop interface ShadowPlan 
would be perfect; without it, the only "good" way to get at the data 
on the desktop (laptop, really) is to export to Memo, manipulate on 
desktop, then re-import, which basically hoses any neat links I've 
established.  I'll probably license it anyway, since Jeff's making 
such impressive progress on sync and desktop.

I like the promote/demote buttons on the ThoughtManager interface, and 
the FIND utility is able to search TM's databases -- major plus for 
me.  I also like the view options: list, todo with all items visible, 
todo with only undone items visible.

Tried Bonsai, but I need compatibility with Win95 (old laptop), would 
really like reliable syncing with multiple PCs and also find the 
interface clunky. Can't change the item type for multiple items (like 
if I want to convert a whole block of stuff into ToDos)

I use InfoSelect on the desktop for random notes, meeting minutes, 
etc, but am not wild about its Palm-side application.  No export, and 
import pulls everything, not just selected items. Biggest plus is that 
 I have the desktop version, and it's relatively easy to include 
content in my sync.

Eager to see the new Shadow developments, particularly the sync and 
desktop.  

another Jeff

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., bstryd@a... wrote:
> My (almost) entire reason for going to a palm was my need to replace 
> ECCO. It was a super organizer and much more. I agree with Doug, the 
> Shadow wish lists sound a lot like ECCO and I, too, miss it big 
time. 
> I believe I have settled on Datebk 4 and Shadow (as it develops) for 
> my "lifeline" replacement, but until the back and forth linking is 
> created and shared categories can happen, I will just muddle 
through.
> 
> BTW -- congrats to Jeff on an excellent and elegant program and fast 
> paced advances. And, like the developer of Datebk, you both are open 
> and accessible and we endusers greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Peter Grierson" <peter.grierson@s...> 
> wrote:
> > Several months ago I check with Netmanage on progress with finding 
> a buyer
> > for ECCO.  They said they were still looking.
> > 
> > At that time, it was still possible to order ECCO (with no 
Support).
> > 
> >      http://www.netmanage.com/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:42:36 -0700
> >    From: "Doug Roberts" <doug@b...>
> > Subject: RE: Wish for Shadow (fwd)
> > 
> > As I read through many of these suggestions, I'm struck more and 
> more how
> > close they resemble the Windows Application: ECCO. ECCO is no 
longer
> > supported, but developed a loyal and dedicated following s an 
> outline-based
> > PIM. I don't know if it is even possible to buy it anymore. It 
could
> > accomplish most of what is requested below. Did anyone use this 
> program
> > besides me? I now use Outlook, but finding Shadow reminds me of 
the 
> many
> > features I miss from ECCO.
389

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: ECCO, & Shadow ramblings

 
On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Jeff Arnfield wrote:

> Shadow offers more features than TM, and I like Jeff's approach to 
> development.  The ability to access, manipulate and create content on 
> the PC is critical for me.  With a good desktop interface ShadowPlan 
> would be perfect; without it, the only "good" way to get at the data 
> on the desktop (laptop, really) is to export to Memo, manipulate on 
> desktop, then re-import, which basically hoses any neat links I've 
> established.  I'll probably license it anyway, since Jeff's making 
> such impressive progress on sync and desktop.

	1.5.0 improves the in and out abilities quite a bit, but
maintaining links across syncs is *very* difficult, by the nature of the
beast, Palm OS, Windows, Mac, etc..

> I like the promote/demote buttons on the ThoughtManager interface, and 
> the FIND utility is able to search TM's databases -- major plus for 
> me.  I also like the view options: list, todo with all items visible, 
> todo with only undone items visible.

	Promote and demote in Shadow is via grafitti left or right swipe
(or space/backspace on a keyboard), or through menu and character
shortcuts. I didnt' think they warranted buttons on screen, since a single
swipe on grafitti is pretty fast. Didnt' want to make the UI even more
complex :)

	1.5.0 includes global find support (and is due out in a day or
two.. I just need to speed up somethign and work on the manual).

> Eager to see the new Shadow developments, particularly the sync and 
> desktop.  

	1.5.0 is a babystep to the desktop support; includes a windows
installer and windows backup to XML conduit. This oepns up a world of
possibilities for a lot of people. I'm sure the conduit will work well for
win95 and win98 and win2k peopel, as I've tried to keep it simple and
useful. The beta I did a week or two ago helped bring out some weakensses
which I'm sure have been fixed for the production release. After
gatherting input and experiences with the 1.5.0 release, and the
translator tools to follow, I'll begin work on 1.6.0 which is the
two-way-sync conduit and desktop application.

	I'm being careful.. data is important, so baby steps is necessary.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
390

From: easy-123@e...
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: ECCO, & Shadow ramblings

 
"I'm being careful.. data is important, so baby steps is 
necessary.
> 
> 		jeff"

Another great quote from Canada (to go along with all the great ones 
from the "Red/Green Show", aired in the U.S. on PBS) like:

"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you 
handy."   by Red Green)
391

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:21pm
Subject: Keyboard support

 
I just realized this the other day that Jeff HAD added quite a bit of 
keyboard support to the latest version! I love the use of the arrows 
to expand and collapse lists and also the ability to go up or down 
the list. I haven't tried the demote/promote options with the space 
bar and backspace, but I'm heading there now! Great work!

Best Regards,

Tamim Azizadah
www.twinmoons.com
392

From: Jeff Arnfield  <jarnfiel@l...>
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:31pm
Subject: Re: ECCO, & Shadow ramblings

 
Did I mention your quick response time? ;^)

Just licensed Shadow via Handango, so I'm within a registration number 
of being a legal user.

>1.5.0 improves the in and out abilities quite a bit, but
> maintaining links across syncs is *very* difficult, by the nature of 
the
> beast, Palm OS, Windows, Mac, etc..
 
Understand, but hey, a guy can wish, right? :)
 
>Promote and demote in Shadow is via grafitti left or right 
swipe
> (or space/backspace on a keyboard),

And that does work fine; I just like the buttons.  In all fairness, my 
ability to Graffiti a recognizeable "Q" has improved greatly :)

> 	I'm being careful.. data is important, so baby steps is 
necessary.

You bet!  That's why I said I like your approach to development.  
Losing data would be bad.

Jeff
393

From: Aaron Ebata  <aebata@h...>
Date: Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: RE: Keyboard support

 
I too hadn't used the keyboard in awhile and was pleasantly suprised as
well - nice work Jeff. The use of the space bar and backspace to
demote/promote work well.  Of course, using swipe right/left is also slick
and easy....

Aaron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: elfinger@v... [mailto:elfinger@v...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:22 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Keyboard support
>
>
> I just realized this the other day that Jeff HAD added quite a bit of
> keyboard support to the latest version! I love the use of the arrows
> to expand and collapse lists and also the ability to go up or down
> the list. I haven't tried the demote/promote options with the space
> bar and backspace, but I'm heading there now! Great work!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Tamim Azizadah
> www.twinmoons.com
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
394

From: Peter Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:20am
Subject: Re: Question about XML Format with Conduit

 
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 1 Jeff Mitchell wrote:

<snip>

yeah; I've not defined the date format yet

=====
Although I grew up in the United States, I have relatives living in
countries that do not follow the US convention of formatting dates MM/DD/YY.

To avoid confusion as to the intended date, I adopted a YY/MM/DD format.
Later my first organizer was the outliner MaxThink (DOS).  Using the
YY/MM/DD format and MaxThink's sort function did a remarkable job of
maintaining my calendar of appointments.  Because YY/MM/DD/HH:MM sorts
correctly into ascending or descending order, I was able to enter new items
at the top and sort them into place.

Adopting a similar format (I would prefer YYYY/MM/DD/HH:MM) would avoid
confusion as to the intended date as the YY/MM/DD format is universally
understood and is the accepted format in several countries.

To quickly enter sort friendly, formatted date or date and time stamps on
my Palm computer, 
>I set the Palm Date Preference to y/m/d, and 
>use MagicText's plug in: Date and Time.

Sort friendly, formatted date or date and time stamps  can be entered in
three motions. 

------------
Year/Month/Day/Will always sort correctly (Ascending or descending--Here
descending)

Sorted On:
YY/MM/DD [the date as a number]      | Results  | Because:
01/09/15 [010,915] for Sept 15, 2001 | 09/15/01 | 010,915 > 010,902
01/09/02 [010,902] for  Sept 2, 2001 | 09/02/01 | 010,902 > 010,301
01/03/01 [010,301] for  Mar  1, 2001 | 03/01/01 | 010,301 > 001,125
00/11/25 [001,125] for  Nov  1, 2000 | 11/01/00
--------------------

Month/Day/Year sorted as number does not work

Sorted on:
MM/DD/YY [the date as a number]      | Results  | Because:
11/25/00 [112,500] for Nov   1, 2000 | 11/25/00 | 112,500 >  091,501
09/15/01 [091,501] for Sept 15, 2001 | 09/15/01 | 091,501 >  090,201
09/02/01 [090,201] for Sept  2, 2001 | 09/02/01 | 090,201 >  030,101
03/01/01 [030,101] for  Mar  1, 2001 | 03/01/01

Nov 1, 2000 should be the last item on a descending sort, not the first.

Peter R.

"All Accounting is creative."
395

From: robertsjb2000@y...
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:21am
Subject: Keyboard support

 
Where can I find a list of the latest keyboard commands?  Is it 
possible to navigate the menu with the keyboard?  If so, how?  The 
menu can be accessed by pressing the menu key on the keyboard.  
However, I haven't found a way to scroll to the different categories 
on the menu or down a list to an action.  Am I missing something?
396

From: elfinger@v...
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:10am
Subject: Re: Keyboard support

 
I don't know if you can navigate menus with Shadow, but if you're 
using a keyboard, I highly recommend the awesome freeware hack 
PointerHack. Search for it on palmgear.com. It lets you launch an on-
screen cursor by pressing a user-defined key and lets you move it 
around with the arrow keys. It also lets you navigate through the 
various menus. It's really handy with a keyboard and you'll barely be 
touching the stylus anymore!

Best Regards,

Tamim
www.twinmoons.com


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., robertsjb2000@y... wrote:
> Where can I find a list of the latest keyboard commands?  Is it 
> possible to navigate the menu with the keyboard?  If so, how?  The 
> menu can be accessed by pressing the menu key on the keyboard.  
> However, I haven't found a way to scroll to the different 
categories 
> on the menu or down a list to an action.  Am I missing something?
397

From: Peter Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:53am
Subject: Re: Keyboard support

 
LapTophack makes menues accessable by the keyboard for just about any program.

It is inexpensive and is available from www.palmgear.com

The Yahoo group "peditors" covers both pedit and LapTopHack:

Peter R

"All Accounting is creative."
398

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 23, 2001 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Keyboard support

 
On Fri, 23 Mar 2001 robertsjb2000@y... wrote:

> Where can I find a list of the latest keyboard commands?  Is it 
> possible to navigate the menu with the keyboard?  If so, how?  The 
> menu can be accessed by pressing the menu key on the keyboard.  
> However, I haven't found a way to scroll to the different categories 
> on the menu or down a list to an action.  Am I missing something?

	I tend to leave the menu bar to Palm OS, though it doesn't really
give you much support there. They keyboard drivers should handle it, but
often they don't, either. I think only WordSmith does a good job of this,
because he said hell with the OS ;)

	Remind me again after 1.5.0 comes out and I'll revisit it; I don't
have a keyboard, so its hard for me to work on.

	The manual for 1.5.0 will include some keyboard shortcuts
listings.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
399

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 0:01am
Subject: QUESTION/POLL: PLEASE ANSWER!

 
How many addressbook entries do you have on your palm,
approximately?  (in all categories)

	Please let me know ASAP ... it'll help me get 1.5.0 out to
everyone.

	Do you have:
	a) Less than 100
	b) Less than 500
	c) Less than (or equal to :) 1000
	d) More than 1000

	Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
400

From: Bob & Kelly Hughes  <bhughes@d...>
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 0:04am
Subject: RE: QUESTION/POLL: PLEASE ANSWER!

 
Jeff wrote:

<< How many addressbook entries do you have on your palm,
<< approximately?  (in all categories)
 
 
I have 344 address book entries
 
Regards,
Bob Hughes


 


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