From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 6:03pm
Subject: Palmtop Pro Workshop part 2

For details, see:

	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/

Essentially, the fine lads over at Palmtop-Pro are about to publish the
second part in their Shadow Plan workshop. This entry is 10 pages in the
upcoming issue (wow!), and looks to be a very fine tutorial on
linking. The first part is still available in back issues for those who
missed it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Fay, Randy  <randy@t...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: No XML Files?

[Sorry - seem to have sent this to skeleton before]

I have 1.5.14 and have no .xml files in my desktop directory, even
though the .pdb's are there (and they're being synch'd/backed up
correctly, it appears).

How do I get the .xml's?

Thanks!
-Randy

-- 
Randy Fay
randy.fay@s...
303.409.8813

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 8:31pm
Subject: Re: No XML Files?

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Fay, Randy wrote:

> [Sorry - seem to have sent this to skeleton before]

	Which is fine, since that is also a support mailing list. A
response was made there.

	Essentially, you need to use the latest Windows Enhanced Edition
installer to set up the conduit.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: david.laing@e...
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: How to import existing lists?

Jeff,
Thanks, as ever, for your swift response!
> There should be a Palm Backup directory for .pdb files; if you
> found the ShadowPlan directory, go back up one level, and find the 
Backup
> directory. It shoudl contain a pile of ShadP-*.pdb files, one for 
each of
> your lists. 

I should have mentioned that I'd already looked in backup, and not 
found my lists there - ONLY in xml format in the shadow directory.  
Any ideas?  Maybe I mis-set a preference somewhere that prevented the 
lists being backed up?  Anyway, I can re-enter the data if I need to 
(from the xml files), but it would be good to know how this 
happened...

Thanks in advance for your time.
David

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: How to import existing lists?

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 david.laing@e... wrote:

> I should have mentioned that I'd already looked in backup, and not 
> found my lists there - ONLY in xml format in the shadow directory.  
> Any ideas?  Maybe I mis-set a preference somewhere that prevented the 
> lists being backed up?  Anyway, I can re-enter the data if I need to 
> (from the xml files), but it would be good to know how this 
> happened...

	Eeep!

	Shadow requests hotsync manager to back up the files,
always. There is no way to tell Shadow not to do this (unless you go and
mess with the files yourself, and then its your problem ;)  If your'e
using any halfway recent Shadow and Hotsync Manager (say Shadow in the
last 6mo or more, or Hotsync Manager 3.x or later) and you should be fine. 

	Hotsync Manager has been known to delete backups for no reason (it
did it to me a few weeks ago :/), but I can't do anything about this.

	If all you have is the XML, you'll need to wait for the desktop
application. The XML has changed, but I think the old XML will still load
into the desktop app and get you the absolute basics (text).  The desktop
application is due out in about 2-3 weeks, though if you're willign to
take the risks, you could join shadow-test and try out an alpha..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: F&B Sachs  <rsachs@b...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Palmtop Pro Workshop part 2

Unfortunately, I don't read German and I couldn't find an English language version. Can you point me in the right direction?  Thanks.  Bob Sachs
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 2:03 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Palmtop Pro Workshop part 2



  For details, see:

        http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/

  Essentially, the fine lads over at Palmtop-Pro are about to publish the
  second part in their Shadow Plan workshop. This entry is 10 pages in the
  upcoming issue (wow!), and looks to be a very fine tutorial on
  linking. The first part is still available in back issues for those who
  missed it.

              jeff

  --
  "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
  circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
  sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
  -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Lux Natura  <luxnatura@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Palmtop Pro Workshop part 2

--On Thursday, October 11, 2001 17:55:42 -0400 F&B Sachs <rsachs@b...> wrote:

> Unfortunately, I don't read German and I couldn't find an English language version. Can you point me in the right direction?  Thanks.  Bob Sachs

My wife's German and I'd ask her to translate it for me, but anything
technical would take a serious bribe. :-)

-lux

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 11, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Palmtop Pro Workshop part 2

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, F&B Sachs wrote:

> Unfortunately, I don't read German and I couldn't find an English
> language version. Can you point me in the right direction?  Thanks.  
> Bob Sachs

	This is a German magazine, so no English translation :/ (I wish
their was an English magazine that would do such in depth coverage of an
application gratis.. I'd have to pay big money to get it done here where I
can read it :P)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: m_harlow@v...
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:01am
Subject: Templates for task lists

I'm in advertising so I often have multiple projects with the same 
list of tasks.  Is there a way to save templates like the steps in a 
TV spot so that I can import them every time I need to do a TV spot?

Thanks,
Matt Harlow

From: m_harlow@v...
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:11am
Subject: Project Management Tips

I'm new to ShadowPlan.  How do other users use it as a project 
manager?

Thanks,
Matt Harlow

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:46am
Subject: Re: Templates for task lists

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 m_harlow@v... wrote:

> I'm in advertising so I often have multiple projects with the same 
> list of tasks.  Is there a way to save templates like the steps in a 
> TV spot so that I can import them every time I need to do a TV spot?

	Until I add a more formal way, the best way is to do one of these:

1) Make yourself a list as a template. When you need to use it, use the
Duplicate operation (from the file selection screen) to copy it to
whatever permanent list you want.

2) Keep a template list with various items in it. When you need them, you
can use the copy/paste operations.. things like Copy+Uncheck can be very
useful.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:48am
Subject: Re: Project Management Tips

Let me know if you don't get any responses; Since I write the
software, I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing from me ;) If no one else
responds, I'll give you my take on things. 

	Basicly though, I keep evertything in Shadow (I wrote it, after
all ;), and as items draw near I push them into Todo or Datebook via
linking. That way they show up in Outlook or Palm Desktop (whichever you
use), and can be alarmed and such. I use a list per major project, with
various todo rollup lists. I keep Table-of-Content type lists with links
to other lists, so as to enable easy grouping of related projects. I keep
resources and assignment in Note fields as well as Address links.

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Kenneth S. Rhee  <polymath@m...>
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 11:44am
Subject: RE: Project Management Tips

The rectangle on the top left corner still remains.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...] 
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 11:48 PM
> To: m_harlow@v...
> Cc: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Project Management Tips
> 
> 
> 
> 	Let me know if you don't get any responses; Since I 
> write the software, I'm sure everyone is sick of hearing from 
> me ;) If no one else responds, I'll give you my take on things. 
> 
> 	Basicly though, I keep evertything in Shadow (I wrote 
> it, after all ;), and as items draw near I push them into 
> Todo or Datebook via linking. That way they show up in 
> Outlook or Palm Desktop (whichever you use), and can be 
> alarmed and such. I use a list per major project, with 
> various todo rollup lists. I keep Table-of-Content type lists 
> with links to other lists, so as to enable easy grouping of 
> related projects. I keep resources and assignment in Note 
> fields as well as Address links.
> 
> 		Jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your 
> own micro circuits without permission from 'Master Control 
> Program'. I mean, sending *ME* down here to play games.... 
> Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: 
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: RE: Project Management Tips

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Kenneth S. Rhee wrote:

> The rectangle on the top left corner still remains.

	Keep this in shadow-test.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Neal Cordle  <ncordle@y...>
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 7:57pm
Subject: RE: Project Management Tips

Welcome to ShadowPlan!

FWIW, I have......

1.  Two "Table of Contents" lists.  One is for personal and one is for professional projects.  These lists basically are the
"project titles" and link to.....
2.  Multiple lists: one for each project.  When I enter the tasks for each project, I try to go ahead and link to todo or
datebook as appropriate.
3.  On a daily basis, I use todo and datebook to manage my work.
4.  On a weekly basis, I review all projects, adding new tasks, list maintenance.
5.  Each project I manage has similar steps that I want included, i.e., purpose, goal, manager, evaluation, etc.  I created a
"blank" list with these items and store as a "template."  When I open a new project list, I copy these items into the new list.
6.  I do have several miscellaneous lists for items that don't fit into a project, i.e., shopping lists, websites to visit, etc.

Good luck!
Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: m_harlow@v...
[mailto:m_harlow@v...]
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:12 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Project Management Tips


I'm new to ShadowPlan.  How do other users use it as a project
manager?

Thanks,
Matt Harlow



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Oct 13, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Expert mode button bar?

This has come up a few times. Do you want icon button bar instead
of text buttons? (I'm thinkign a pref for this, so that by default text
button are used, but icon buttons and more of them if you are a Shadow
regular user).

	Current front panel buttons are:

	New, Child, Details, Done, Search, Trash

	I'm thinking of exprt button bar that has buttons for each of
these, plus at least 5 more:

	Icon for "New Parent". When you hit this, you create a new item at
a higher level, below (on-screen) them item currently selected. The idea
being I want to create this list:

A
	1
B

	Write "A". New-child. "1". New-parent. "B". Done!

	Normally, I have to "A". New-child. "1". Select "A". New Sibling.

	I'd like to avoid the selection part :)

	Also, 4 buttons for "push up", "push down", "push left", "push
right".

	Is this sort of button bar universally desirable? What options
would you prefer in addition to, or instead of, these?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: maclover88  <maclover88@m...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 2:18am
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

Jeff,

The icon extra buttons sound great.
Would the export allow us to export the selected item to a different list?
If so how about a choice between leaving the item in the current list as
well as the destination list (like a copy paste) or deleating from the
current list (like a cut and paste).
I find that as I am arranging my lists, cut (or copy paste) is a lot of work
to send an item to a different list. It would be great to be able to stay in
the list I'm in and send stuff to my other lists in a submenu which is I
hope what you mean by export (of course in addition to exporting to the
memo, to do and appt book).

The other request I have is for there to be a vertical scroll bar along the
right edge. I really like having the control in addition to the page up and
down buttons. On my Visor this appears when I am in my App window in the ALL
view.

Thanks,
Jim

<Is this sort of button bar universally desirable? What options
would you prefer in addition to, or instead of, these?>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 2:43am
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, maclover88 wrote:

> The icon extra buttons sound great.

	We'll see, then :)

> Would the export allow us to export the selected item to a different list?

	Did I mention export in there somewhere, or are you coming in from
the side? ;)

	It has long been on my todo list to add a "send to" function, to
let you send an item (or maybe the clipboard?) to another list. A easy way
to save close/open/paste.

> If so how about a choice between leaving the item in the current list as
> well as the destination list (like a copy paste) or deleating from the
> current list (like a cut and paste).

	If I make it a "send clip to ..." option, it'd be fine. Clear the
clip, copy whatever you want (multiple items even, as usual), and then
"send to".

> The other request I have is for there to be a vertical scroll bar
> along the right edge. I really like having the control in addition to
> the page up and down buttons. On my Visor this appears when I am in my
> App window in the ALL view.

	Its also on my todo list; so far, whenever I've done polls, no one
has wanted them since they'd take away from screen space. But in general,
I think they'd be handy in many cases when you just want to zip around
quick. I'll likely add it in as a list pref, so that you can have it or
not as you see fit, on a list by list basis. Not sure when I'll add it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:54am
Subject: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

In general, everything I write for Palm works on OS 3.0 and later,
and usually on Palm OS 2.0 and later too (even Shadow, though I don't
advertise it, works pretty well on 2.x though not perfectly).

	How many people are still using OS 3.0 or OS 3.1?

	Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? Is it
3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).

	Need to know..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: David R. Seibert  <davidrseibert@p...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 4:54am
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).
> 
I'm still up. Actually, 3.5.2H1.5 was released for the Prism and the
Platinum on August 30. I'm going to bed now; goodnight.

David R. Seibert
davidrseibert@p...

From: maclover88  <maclover88@m...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 5:25am
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

Mine has 3.1H2
Jim

>Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? Is it
>3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).

From: m_harlow@v...
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:52pm
Subject: Advertising Project Magement system

I'm still only playing with the demo version of shadow plan but I 
think I'm hooked!  Here's the system I've put together so far:

1) I have a list called templates with templates of a parent and 
children for each type of project I normally do.  Print ad, TV spot, 
etc.

2) I have made a list for each of my clients.  I cut and paste the 
template items into a client and rename them.  So I might cut out a 
print ad from template and paste it in a bank client then name it 
mortgage ad.  I then link mortgage ad to my Palm task list so that it 
can show up there and hotsync to Outlook.

3) I sure the children for subtasks like copy, layout, photos, client 
OK, etc.

4) Layout wise I'm using custom because I love the link off/on box 
with the little T in it to send things to task list without having to 
go there.

OK there's a brief discription of my system.  What do you experienced 
users think of it?

Also I have some questions/potential software refinement ideas:

a) Is there a way to follow a link back from the Palm to do list if 
you were not just in ShadowPlan?  If not that would be a great 
feature/Palm todo hack.

b) How do you sort out tasks that are due today out of 20 different 
lists without opening and closing them all?  

Here's another great feature idea for ShadowPlan.  What if the date 
on a parent could be driven by the children under it.  Each parent 
could take on the date of the earliest child needing attention.  Then 
if parents were all linked to the palm todo (or collapsed in 
shadowplan) then the parent listing would make it apparent which 
parents needed to be opened up and dealt with.

Or, here's another idea!  What if shadow plan generated a link to the 
palm to do list on the date any item was due (or x days before 
that).  That way an entire project could be mapped out in ShadowPlan 
and it would proactively request attention for it's individual tasks.

c) I'm still playing with filters and sorting.  Is there a way I can 
use them to make the system I outlined above more practical or 
powerful?

Thanks for you help and advice.  And, Jeff, thanks for the great 
software at an affordable price.

Matt Harlow

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

At 16:54 13/10/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Do you want icon button bar instead
>of text buttons?

Yes !!!!

>Icon for "New Parent"?

I don't care so much (but maybe need to taste to be convinced)

>         Also, 4 buttons for "push up", "push down",

For those who still have problesms with drags ??

>"push left", "push right".

Waste of real estate (or other feature) : space backspace is so easy !!

I would like (as in Plucker) customizable features for buttons (either soft 
or (why not ?) hard): you would pick your choice for each in a drop down 
list. Choices could be any menu item or c-f-v drop down lists.

I know that instead of four "Push..." I would often select "Zoom inside", 
"unzoom", "expand memos", "collapse memos" ;-)

Just my 2 .....


Jacques

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 4:24pm
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, maclover88 wrote:

> Mine has 3.1H2
> 
> >Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? Is it
> >3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).

	3.1H2. I wonder what the last "2" means. "H" means Handspring and
implies USB, etc. Hmm.

	Ah well. I built some code to work around problems in 3.0 and 3.1,
just to be sure :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 4:32pm
Subject: Re: Advertising Project Magement system

On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 m_harlow@v... wrote:

> a) Is there a way to follow a link back from the Palm to do list if 
> you were not just in ShadowPlan?  If not that would be a great 
> feature/Palm todo hack.

	There is LinkerHack which AFAIK is the only way to do this. I
can't edit the other programs of course, and they're in control, so I
cannot directly build a way to jump back unless you were just in
Shadow. However, LinkerHack does an amazing job of building links into
prorgams that do not do links themselves. Amazing!

> b) How do you sort out tasks that are due today out of 20 different 
> lists without opening and closing them all?  

	Thats a tough one. I have been considering building two tools to
handle this:

1) A palm tool that you invoke from the Shadow file selection screen.
Check off which lists to scan, and have Shadow generate a new list
containing duplicates of the items that match the search criterion you
specify. Sort of a brute force multi-list scanner. Need to think about how
to do this well, fast, and usably.

2) The desktop application runs on the desktop, which has the horsepower
to open piles of lists no problem, unlike the Palm. So I might build a
multi-list filter into the desktop application. Sort of like a "Find me
all the items that atch this..." and the desktop app shows you a window of
matches, and lets you click on one to load the corresponding list.

Option (2) Sounds a lot more plausible, but being on the desktop means it
won't be available "all the time" (for those on the road), and means you
need to have the desktop (which Unix people won't have for awhile, for
instance, and the desktop will likely be a very cheap but extra cost
option). (I'll likely charge $7.99 extra for the desktop, or something,
due to the massive cost to build it and fund its growth. Not yet nailed
down.)

	*shrug*. Toughie :/

> Here's another great feature idea for ShadowPlan.  What if the date 
> on a parent could be driven by the children under it.  Each parent 
> could take on the date of the earliest child needing attention.  Then 
> if parents were all linked to the palm todo (or collapsed in 
> shadowplan) then the parent listing would make it apparent which 
> parents needed to be opened up and dealt with.

	A vote; anyone want this? A pref that when set, makes the parent
always pick up the earliest dates from its children? (earliest target and
start, latest finish, I guess)

> that).  That way an entire project could be mapped out in ShadowPlan 
> and it would proactively request attention for it's individual tasks.

	That could get messy for people with large lists. I like to leave
links to people to set.. not automatic. *shrug*

> c) I'm still playing with filters and sorting.  Is there a way I can 
> use them to make the system I outlined above more practical or 
> powerful?

	If you think of something, let me know. I will eventually be
adding customizable filters to make things more powerful for you.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 jacques@t... wrote:

> Yes !!!!

	hehe :)

> >Icon for "New Parent"?
> I don't care so much (but maybe need to taste to be convinced)

	I sort of like it, but we'll see. Easily taken out and replaced
with something else. It was something I always missed from my Newton days
:)

> >         Also, 4 buttons for "push up", "push down",
> For those who still have problesms with drags ??

	Yep, and for those who just want an easy way to quickly do it
repeatedly withotu thinking at all. (Admittedly, my drag system is
powerful but a tad confusing to people).

> >"push left", "push right".
> Waste of real estate (or other feature) : space backspace is so easy !!

	Few peopel read the manual to know these. This is an expert bar,
granted, but I envision a lot of people using it because it looks good,
and because its easier to use.

	See screenshot..

http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/screenshots/buttonbar1.gif

> I would like (as in Plucker) customizable features for buttons (either soft 
> or (why not ?) hard): you would pick your choice for each in a drop down 
> list. Choices could be any menu item or c-f-v drop down lists.

	*eep* I knew you'd want this ;) I may build it later, but for now
I want maximum punch for the work, so I want most commonly desirable
options. A customize button bar system is rough, since it means I need to
draw 40 little icons in both colour and black and white, and build a UI to
add/remove them, and handle their operation and all that. Its a good (way
cool) idea, but its a lot of work :)

> I know that instead of four "Push..." I would often select "Zoom inside", 
> "unzoom", "expand memos", "collapse memos" ;-)

	Really? I wouldn't have guessed that ;) (Zoom and Unzoom already
available in the [V] menu is two taps. Do you zoom that much?) And
expanding memos and such? Really? See how far off I am :)

	I am tempted to have a standard button bar as screenshoted above,
and a second customizable bar.. if you want a pile of options, build your
own bar and place it above the normal one. Hmm...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: polly_q@y...
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

Hi Jeff--

     My black & white Visor uses Palm OS 3.1H2.

--PollyQ

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	In general, everything I write for Palm works on OS 3.0 and 
later,
> and usually on Palm OS 2.0 and later too (even Shadow, though I 
don't
> advertise it, works pretty well on 2.x though not perfectly).
> 
> 	How many people are still using OS 3.0 or OS 3.1?
> 
> 	Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? 
Is it
> 3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).
> 
> 	Need to know..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Griff  <keith@t...>
Date: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

Personally I'd like to see the scroll bar as a global Shadow 
preference. I figure people will want to use it all the time or not 
at all...at least I know that's how I'd be; I'd use it all the time.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, maclover88 wrote:
> > The other request I have is for there to be a vertical scroll bar
> > along the right edge. I really like having the control in 
addition to
> > the page up and down buttons. On my Visor this appears when I am 
in my
> > App window in the ALL view.
> 
> 	Its also on my todo list; so far, whenever I've done polls, 
no one
> has wanted them since they'd take away from screen space. But in 
general,
> I think they'd be handy in many cases when you just want to zip 
around
> quick. I'll likely add it in as a list pref, so that you can have 
it or
> not as you see fit, on a list by list basis. Not sure when I'll add 
it.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:50pm
Subject: Popup scrollbar?

Just a thought I had last night; I'm considering adding a optional
scrollbar to the right side of the screen. You coudl enable or disable it
by pref, or maybe by list pref. But as an alternative.. what about a
scrollbar-on-demand?

	The question is.. do you want a scrollbar mostly to move around
quickly with, or to get a visual queue of where you are, or both?

	I thought I could maybe squeeze a little teeny button into the
bottom right somewhere. If tapped, a little scrollbar window could pop up,
and you could position the thumb where you want it. Then the window would
vanish, and the document woudl redraw. The popup window would be about 1cm
wide by screen-height, say.

	Does this sound any good? 

	Or should I stick with convention and have a optional
scrollbar.. even present, or disabled, your option?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: Re: Popup scrollbar?

I would like the standard operation of a scroll bar, except since I 
am left-handed, make sure it works with Lefty hack or the other one. 
My lists get pretty long and quickly being able to scan the list is 
important. 

Re: expert bar -- seems fine -- I have no problem with the current 
move controls. 

I'm still hoping the tags show up.......

Bruce

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Just a thought I had last night; I'm considering adding a 
optional
> scrollbar to the right side of the screen. You coudl enable or 
disable it
> by pref, or maybe by list pref. But as an alternative.. what about a
> scrollbar-on-demand?
> 
> 	The question is.. do you want a scrollbar mostly to move 
around
> quickly with, or to get a visual queue of where you are, or both?
> 
> 	I thought I could maybe squeeze a little teeny button into the
> bottom right somewhere. If tapped, a little scrollbar window could 
pop up,
> and you could position the thumb where you want it. Then the window 
would
> vanish, and the document woudl redraw. The popup window would be 
about 1cm
> wide by screen-height, say.
> 
> 	Does this sound any good? 
> 
> 	Or should I stick with convention and have a optional
> scrollbar.. even present, or disabled, your option?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Rick Blaiklock  <rblaiklock@h...>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:21pm
Subject: Visor Version

My Visor Edge is  3.5.2H2.0

How's that for a version number.

...R
----------------------
Rick Blaiklock
rblaiklock@h...



From: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Digest Number 256
Date: 14 Oct 2001 19:57:09 -0000

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

       1. RE: Project Management Tips
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
       2. RE: Project Management Tips
            From: "Neal Cordle" <ncordle@y...>
       3. Expert mode button bar?
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
       4. Re: Expert mode button bar?
            From: maclover88 <maclover88@m...>
       5. Re: Expert mode button bar?
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
       6. Anyone still up? :) OS version question
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
       7. Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question
            From: "David R. Seibert" <davidrseibert@p...>
       8. Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question
            From: maclover88 <maclover88@m...>
       9. Advertising Project Magement system
            From: m_harlow@v...
      10. Re: Expert mode button bar?
            From: jacques@t...
      11. Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
      12. Re: Advertising Project Magement system
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
      13. Re: Expert mode button bar?
            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
      14. Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question
            From: polly_q@y...
      15. Re: Expert mode button bar?
            From: "Griff" <keith@t...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:28:30 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: RE: Project Management Tips

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Kenneth S. Rhee wrote:

 > The rectangle on the top left corner still remains.

	Keep this in shadow-test.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:57:11 +0200
    From: "Neal Cordle" <ncordle@y...>
Subject: RE: Project Management Tips

Welcome to ShadowPlan!

FWIW, I have......

1.  Two "Table of Contents" lists.  One is for personal and one is for 
professional projects.  These lists basically are the
"project titles" and link to.....
2.  Multiple lists: one for each project.  When I enter the tasks for each 
project, I try to go ahead and link to todo or
datebook as appropriate.
3.  On a daily basis, I use todo and datebook to manage my work.
4.  On a weekly basis, I review all projects, adding new tasks, list 
maintenance.
5.  Each project I manage has similar steps that I want included, i.e., 
purpose, goal, manager, evaluation, etc.  I created a
"blank" list with these items and store as a "template."  When I open a new 
project list, I copy these items into the new list.
6.  I do have several miscellaneous lists for items that don't fit into a 
project, i.e., shopping lists, websites to visit, etc.

Good luck!
Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: m_harlow@v...
[mailto:m_harlow@v...]
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:12 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Project Management Tips


I'm new to ShadowPlan.  How do other users use it as a project
manager?

Thanks,
Matt Harlow



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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:54:01 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Expert mode button bar?


	This has come up a few times. Do you want icon button bar instead
of text buttons? (I'm thinkign a pref for this, so that by default text
button are used, but icon buttons and more of them if you are a Shadow
regular user).

	Current front panel buttons are:

	New, Child, Details, Done, Search, Trash

	I'm thinking of exprt button bar that has buttons for each of
these, plus at least 5 more:

	Icon for "New Parent". When you hit this, you create a new item at
a higher level, below (on-screen) them item currently selected. The idea
being I want to create this list:

A
	1
B

	Write "A". New-child. "1". New-parent. "B". Done!

	Normally, I have to "A". New-child. "1". Select "A". New Sibling.

	I'd like to avoid the selection part :)

	Also, 4 buttons for "push up", "push down", "push left", "push
right".

	Is this sort of button bar universally desirable? What options
would you prefer in addition to, or instead of, these?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:18:27 -0700
    From: maclover88 <maclover88@m...>
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

Jeff,

The icon extra buttons sound great.
Would the export allow us to export the selected item to a different list?
If so how about a choice between leaving the item in the current list as
well as the destination list (like a copy paste) or deleating from the
current list (like a cut and paste).
I find that as I am arranging my lists, cut (or copy paste) is a lot of work
to send an item to a different list. It would be great to be able to stay in
the list I'm in and send stuff to my other lists in a submenu which is I
hope what you mean by export (of course in addition to exporting to the
memo, to do and appt book).

The other request I have is for there to be a vertical scroll bar along the
right edge. I really like having the control in addition to the page up and
down buttons. On my Visor this appears when I am in my App window in the ALL
view.

Thanks,
Jim

<Is this sort of button bar universally desirable? What options
would you prefer in addition to, or instead of, these?>



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:43:36 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, maclover88 wrote:

 > The icon extra buttons sound great.

	We'll see, then :)

 > Would the export allow us to export the selected item to a different 
list?

	Did I mention export in there somewhere, or are you coming in from
the side? ;)

	It has long been on my todo list to add a "send to" function, to
let you send an item (or maybe the clipboard?) to another list. A easy way
to save close/open/paste.

 > If so how about a choice between leaving the item in the current list as
 > well as the destination list (like a copy paste) or deleating from the
 > current list (like a cut and paste).

	If I make it a "send clip to ..." option, it'd be fine. Clear the
clip, copy whatever you want (multiple items even, as usual), and then
"send to".

 > The other request I have is for there to be a vertical scroll bar
 > along the right edge. I really like having the control in addition to
 > the page up and down buttons. On my Visor this appears when I am in my
 > App window in the ALL view.

	Its also on my todo list; so far, whenever I've done polls, no one
has wanted them since they'd take away from screen space. But in general,
I think they'd be handy in many cases when you just want to zip around
quick. I'll likely add it in as a list pref, so that you can have it or
not as you see fit, on a list by list basis. Not sure when I'll add it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:54:24 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Anyone still up? :) OS version question


	In general, everything I write for Palm works on OS 3.0 and later,
and usually on Palm OS 2.0 and later too (even Shadow, though I don't
advertise it, works pretty well on 2.x though not perfectly).

	How many people are still using OS 3.0 or OS 3.1?

	Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? Is it
3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).

	Need to know..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 04:54:06 -0000
    From: "David R. Seibert" <davidrseibert@p...>
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
 >
 > (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).
 >
I'm still up. Actually, 3.5.2H1.5 was released for the Prism and the
Platinum on August 30. I'm going to bed now; goodnight.

David R. Seibert
davidrseibert@p...



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
    Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:25:10 -0700
    From: maclover88 <maclover88@m...>
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

Mine has 3.1H2
Jim

 >Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? Is it
 >3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:52:44 -0000
    From: m_harlow@v...
Subject: Advertising Project Magement system

I'm still only playing with the demo version of shadow plan but I
think I'm hooked!  Here's the system I've put together so far:

1) I have a list called templates with templates of a parent and
children for each type of project I normally do.  Print ad, TV spot,
etc.

2) I have made a list for each of my clients.  I cut and paste the
template items into a client and rename them.  So I might cut out a
print ad from template and paste it in a bank client then name it
mortgage ad.  I then link mortgage ad to my Palm task list so that it
can show up there and hotsync to Outlook.

3) I sure the children for subtasks like copy, layout, photos, client
OK, etc.

4) Layout wise I'm using custom because I love the link off/on box
with the little T in it to send things to task list without having to
go there.

OK there's a brief discription of my system.  What do you experienced
users think of it?

Also I have some questions/potential software refinement ideas:

a) Is there a way to follow a link back from the Palm to do list if
you were not just in ShadowPlan?  If not that would be a great
feature/Palm todo hack.

b) How do you sort out tasks that are due today out of 20 different
lists without opening and closing them all?

Here's another great feature idea for ShadowPlan.  What if the date
on a parent could be driven by the children under it.  Each parent
could take on the date of the earliest child needing attention.  Then
if parents were all linked to the palm todo (or collapsed in
shadowplan) then the parent listing would make it apparent which
parents needed to be opened up and dealt with.

Or, here's another idea!  What if shadow plan generated a link to the
palm to do list on the date any item was due (or x days before
that).  That way an entire project could be mapped out in ShadowPlan
and it would proactively request attention for it's individual tasks.

c) I'm still playing with filters and sorting.  Is there a way I can
use them to make the system I outlined above more practical or
powerful?

Thanks for you help and advice.  And, Jeff, thanks for the great
software at an affordable price.

Matt Harlow



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:30:26 -0400
    From: jacques@t...
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

At 16:54 13/10/2001 -0400, you wrote:
 >Do you want icon button bar instead
 >of text buttons?

Yes !!!!

 >Icon for "New Parent"?

I don't care so much (but maybe need to taste to be convinced)

 >         Also, 4 buttons for "push up", "push down",

For those who still have problesms with drags ??

 >"push left", "push right".

Waste of real estate (or other feature) : space backspace is so easy !!

I would like (as in Plucker) customizable features for buttons (either soft
or (why not ?) hard): you would pick your choice for each in a drop down
list. Choices could be any menu item or c-f-v drop down lists.

I know that instead of four "Push..." I would often select "Zoom inside",
"unzoom", "expand memos", "collapse memos" ;-)

Just my 2 .....


Jacques





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:24:49 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, maclover88 wrote:

 > Mine has 3.1H2
 >
 > >Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them? Is it
 > >3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).

	3.1H2. I wonder what the last "2" means. "H" means Handspring and
implies USB, etc. Hmm.

	Ah well. I built some code to work around problems in 3.0 and 3.1,
just to be sure :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:32:53 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Advertising Project Magement system

On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 m_harlow@v... wrote:

 > a) Is there a way to follow a link back from the Palm to do list if
 > you were not just in ShadowPlan?  If not that would be a great
 > feature/Palm todo hack.

	There is LinkerHack which AFAIK is the only way to do this. I
can't edit the other programs of course, and they're in control, so I
cannot directly build a way to jump back unless you were just in
Shadow. However, LinkerHack does an amazing job of building links into
prorgams that do not do links themselves. Amazing!

 > b) How do you sort out tasks that are due today out of 20 different
 > lists without opening and closing them all?

	Thats a tough one. I have been considering building two tools to
handle this:

1) A palm tool that you invoke from the Shadow file selection screen.
Check off which lists to scan, and have Shadow generate a new list
containing duplicates of the items that match the search criterion you
specify. Sort of a brute force multi-list scanner. Need to think about how
to do this well, fast, and usably.

2) The desktop application runs on the desktop, which has the horsepower
to open piles of lists no problem, unlike the Palm. So I might build a
multi-list filter into the desktop application. Sort of like a "Find me
all the items that atch this..." and the desktop app shows you a window of
matches, and lets you click on one to load the corresponding list.

Option (2) Sounds a lot more plausible, but being on the desktop means it
won't be available "all the time" (for those on the road), and means you
need to have the desktop (which Unix people won't have for awhile, for
instance, and the desktop will likely be a very cheap but extra cost
option). (I'll likely charge $7.99 extra for the desktop, or something,
due to the massive cost to build it and fund its growth. Not yet nailed
down.)

	*shrug*. Toughie :/

 > Here's another great feature idea for ShadowPlan.  What if the date
 > on a parent could be driven by the children under it.  Each parent
 > could take on the date of the earliest child needing attention.  Then
 > if parents were all linked to the palm todo (or collapsed in
 > shadowplan) then the parent listing would make it apparent which
 > parents needed to be opened up and dealt with.

	A vote; anyone want this? A pref that when set, makes the parent
always pick up the earliest dates from its children? (earliest target and
start, latest finish, I guess)

 > that).  That way an entire project could be mapped out in ShadowPlan
 > and it would proactively request attention for it's individual tasks.

	That could get messy for people with large lists. I like to leave
links to people to set.. not automatic. *shrug*

 > c) I'm still playing with filters and sorting.  Is there a way I can
 > use them to make the system I outlined above more practical or
 > powerful?

	If you think of something, let me know. I will eventually be
adding customizable filters to make things more powerful for you.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:37:31 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 jacques@t... wrote:

 > Yes !!!!

	hehe :)

 > >Icon for "New Parent"?
 > I don't care so much (but maybe need to taste to be convinced)

	I sort of like it, but we'll see. Easily taken out and replaced
with something else. It was something I always missed from my Newton days
:)

 > >         Also, 4 buttons for "push up", "push down",
 > For those who still have problesms with drags ??

	Yep, and for those who just want an easy way to quickly do it
repeatedly withotu thinking at all. (Admittedly, my drag system is
powerful but a tad confusing to people).

 > >"push left", "push right".
 > Waste of real estate (or other feature) : space backspace is so easy !!

	Few peopel read the manual to know these. This is an expert bar,
granted, but I envision a lot of people using it because it looks good,
and because its easier to use.

	See screenshot..

http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/screenshots/buttonbar1.gif

 > I would like (as in Plucker) customizable features for buttons (either 
soft
 > or (why not ?) hard): you would pick your choice for each in a drop down
 > list. Choices could be any menu item or c-f-v drop down lists.

	*eep* I knew you'd want this ;) I may build it later, but for now
I want maximum punch for the work, so I want most commonly desirable
options. A customize button bar system is rough, since it means I need to
draw 40 little icons in both colour and black and white, and build a UI to
add/remove them, and handle their operation and all that. Its a good (way
cool) idea, but its a lot of work :)

 > I know that instead of four "Push..." I would often select "Zoom inside",
 > "unzoom", "expand memos", "collapse memos" ;-)

	Really? I wouldn't have guessed that ;) (Zoom and Unzoom already
available in the [V] menu is two taps. Do you zoom that much?) And
expanding memos and such? Really? See how far off I am :)

	I am tempted to have a standard button bar as screenshoted above,
and a second customizable bar.. if you want a pile of options, build your
own bar and place it above the normal one. Hmm...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:57:08 -0000
    From: polly_q@y...
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

Hi Jeff--

      My black & white Visor uses Palm OS 3.1H2.

--PollyQ

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
 >
 > 	In general, everything I write for Palm works on OS 3.0 and
later,
 > and usually on Palm OS 2.0 and later too (even Shadow, though I
don't
 > advertise it, works pretty well on 2.x though not perfectly).
 >
 > 	How many people are still using OS 3.0 or OS 3.1?
 >
 > 	Which exact version do black and white Visor's have in them?
Is it
 > 3.3H or 3.1H? (I know the Prism is 3.5.0H).
 >
 > 	Need to know..
 >
 > 		jeff
 >
 > --
 > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own
micro
 > circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
 > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he
is?"
 > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
    Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:37:51 -0000
    From: "Griff" <keith@t...>
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

Personally I'd like to see the scroll bar as a global Shadow
preference. I figure people will want to use it all the time or not
at all...at least I know that's how I'd be; I'd use it all the time.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
 > On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, maclover88 wrote:
 > > The other request I have is for there to be a vertical scroll bar
 > > along the right edge. I really like having the control in
addition to
 > > the page up and down buttons. On my Visor this appears when I am
in my
 > > App window in the ALL view.
 >
 > 	Its also on my todo list; so far, whenever I've done polls,
no one
 > has wanted them since they'd take away from screen space. But in
general,
 > I think they'd be handy in many cases when you just want to zip
around
 > quick. I'll likely add it in as a list pref, so that you can have
it or
 > not as you see fit, on a list by list basis. Not sure when I'll add
it.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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_________________________________________________________________
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From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Popup scrollbar?

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:

> I would like the standard operation of a scroll bar, except since I 
> am left-handed, make sure it works with Lefty hack or the other one. 
> My lists get pretty long and quickly being able to scan the list is 
> important. 

	What does LeftyHack do?

	Southpaws like to have the scrollbar on the left?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: smasters@a...
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Popup scrollbar?

Jeff,

I am a lefty, and because of that don't often use the scroll bars (left
hand covers the screen when you reach for the scroll-bar). LeftHack moves
scroll bars to the left side of the display. It's made by Quartus (
http://www.quartus.net/products/lefthack/ ), but at $10 it seemed
over-priced  to me. So I try to stick to hardware buttons. Just one of the
many crosses we lefties must bare.

Scott


                                                                                                                   
                    Jeff Mitchell                                                                                  
                    <support@s...        To:     shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com                                    
                    eton.org>            cc:                                                                       
                                         Subject:     Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Popup scrollbar?                    
                    10/15/2001                                                                                     
                    09:31 AM                                                                                       
                    Please                                                                                         
                    respond to                                                                                     
                    shadow-discus                                                                                  
                    s                                                                                              
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   




On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:

> I would like the standard operation of a scroll bar, except since I
> am left-handed, make sure it works with Lefty hack or the other one.
> My lists get pretty long and quickly being able to scan the list is
> important.

           What does LeftyHack do?

           Southpaws like to have the scrollbar on the left?

                     jeff

From: Ian M. Sacklow  <isacklow@d...>
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Popup scrollbar?

jeff
i'm also a lefty. scroll bars are great as long as they can be moved and
the screen adjusted accordingly. there are a few apps that just don't
play nice even with the hacks. avantgo, certain screens for action
names, wordsmith, and a few others. the scroll bar gets moved but it
covers text. damned if you do damned if you don't.

the big thing for leftys is the scroll bar being switched like scott
said. it's pain trying to read thru the back of your hand :)

scott
i have found a freeware hack that works pretty good. it says it's
shareware but i have yet to see a nag or a price.

http://www.interlog.com/~nbridges

there is a stand alone app called lefty if i am not mistaken but i think
that is also a shareware.
ian

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 smasters@a... wrote:

> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:37:13 -0500
> Jeff,
> 
> I am a lefty, and because of that don't often use the scroll bars (left
> hand covers the screen when you reach for the scroll-bar). LeftHack moves
> scroll bars to the left side of the display. It's made by Quartus (
> http://www.quartus.net/products/lefthack/ ), but at $10 it seemed
> over-priced  to me. So I try to stick to hardware buttons. Just one of the
> many crosses we lefties must bare.
> 
> Scott

From: omar-@home.com
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Re: Popup scrollbar?

I personally don't find the standard scrollbar to be very useful in navigating around a file.  I would prefer a button at the bottom that pops up a list of, say, the first line of the top level headlines.  Tapping a headline would take you to that location in the outline.

This idea is takeoff of the "jump to paragraph" function in Wordsmith and the "jump to section" function in cJAG Notes.

Regards.

michael walsh

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Just a thought I had last night; I'm considering adding a optional scrollbar . . .

From: jreyes1958@y...
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Advertising Project Magement system

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 m_harlow@v... wrote:
> 
> > a) Is there a way to follow a link back from the Palm to do list if 
> > you were not just in ShadowPlan?  If not that would be a great 
> > feature/Palm todo hack.
> 
> 	There is LinkerHack which AFAIK is the only way to do this. I
> can't edit the other programs of course, and they're in control, so I
> cannot directly build a way to jump back unless you were just in
> Shadow. However, LinkerHack does an amazing job of building links into
> prorgams that do not do links themselves. Amazing!
> 
> > b) How do you sort out tasks that are due today out of 20 different 
> > lists without opening and closing them all?  
> 
> 	Thats a tough one. I have been considering building two tools to
> handle this:
> 
> 1) A palm tool that you invoke from the Shadow file selection screen.
> Check off which lists to scan, and have Shadow generate a new list
> containing duplicates of the items that match the search criterion you
> specify. Sort of a brute force multi-list scanner. Need to think
about how
> to do this well, fast, and usably.
> 
> 2) The desktop application runs on the desktop, which has the horsepower
> to open piles of lists no problem, unlike the Palm. So I might build a
> multi-list filter into the desktop application. Sort of like a "Find me
> all the items that atch this..." and the desktop app shows you a
window of
> matches, and lets you click on one to load the corresponding list.
> 
> Option (2) Sounds a lot more plausible, but being on the desktop
means it
> won't be available "all the time" (for those on the road), and means you
> need to have the desktop (which Unix people won't have for awhile, for
> instance, and the desktop will likely be a very cheap but extra cost
> option). (I'll likely charge $7.99 extra for the desktop, or something,
> due to the massive cost to build it and fund its growth. Not yet nailed
> down.)
> 
> 	*shrug*. Toughie :/
> 
> > Here's another great feature idea for ShadowPlan.  What if the date 
> > on a parent could be driven by the children under it.  Each parent 
> > could take on the date of the earliest child needing attention.  Then 
> > if parents were all linked to the palm todo (or collapsed in 
> > shadowplan) then the parent listing would make it apparent which 
> > parents needed to be opened up and dealt with.
> 
> 	A vote; anyone want this? A pref that when set, makes the parent
> always pick up the earliest dates from its children? (earliest
target and
> start, latest finish, I guess)
> 
> > that).  That way an entire project could be mapped out in ShadowPlan 
> > and it would proactively request attention for it's individual tasks.
> 
> 	That could get messy for people with large lists. I like to leave
> links to people to set.. not automatic. *shrug*
> 
> > c) I'm still playing with filters and sorting.  Is there a way I can 
> > use them to make the system I outlined above more practical or 
> > powerful?
> 
> 	If you think of something, let me know. I will eventually be
> adding customizable filters to make things more powerful for you.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


My vote would be for a palm powered app for cross file filtering.
Seems to defeat the purpose of the palm powered app if you have to
have the desktop to enable a feature.

desktop filter is great too of course, but if it's not on the palm as
well, not a good solution

From: Trw672533@c...
Date: Mon Oct 15, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

fyi as requested -- I'm still using 3.1 on my Palm IIIe.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: peter.grierson@s...
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:34am
Subject: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 	How many people are still using OS 3.0 or OS 3.1?

=====
I am running: 
 -OS 3.5 on IIIc 2MB Flash ROM
 -OS 3.3 on IIIx w/ Xtra Xtra Pro, therefore 4MB Flash ROM
 -OS 3.1 on PP Pro w/ Palm RAM expansion and therefore 2MB Flash ROM.

-----
I did not see the point of upgrading to 3.5 when 4.0 was in the works.

I am hoping I can upgrade all or at least the IIIc and IIIx to Palm 
OS 4 when it becomes available for the older models.  We will see.

Peter R.

"All Accounting is creative."

From: peter.grierson@s...
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:59am
Subject: Re: Popup scrollbar?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., omar-@h... wrote:
> I personally don't find the standard scrollbar to be very useful in 
navigating around a file.  I would prefer a button at the bottom 
that...

Pops up a jump menu: 
 -Home, 
 -Back%, 
 -% [absolute %],
 -Forward %,
 -End,
 -Marker,
 -Top level [of current List -- one level short of collapse all]

A takeoff on the jump menu within the pedit family of text editors.

Peter R.
"All Accounting is creative."

From: Peter R Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 6:26am
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

--- In shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <support@c...>
wrote:
>
> >snip< Do you want an icon button bar instead of text buttons?
>

=====
ShadowPlan "Icon" buttons might be:

TOP ROW:
N  = New item
NC = New Child
NP = New Parent [I miss this from my first outliner - MaxThink]
U  = Undo
X  = Cut
C  = Copy
P  = Paste
S  = Select
J  = Jump
F  = Find [find within the current List]
G  = Find Again (from the Mac environment)

BOTTOM ROW:
OK = Okay
D  = Details [Category, Private, Delete]
   =
   =
L  = Lower case
T  = Title case
U  = Upper case
   =
?  = Help
R  = Revert to Last
V  = Insert Clipboard or List
>  = Recent Lists
»  = Linked Applications [Datebook, DateBK3/4, Action Names, ToDo, etc.]

Liberally adapted from the menu buttons of the pedit family of text editors.

From the pedit manual, "I hope the buttonPanel concept will become standard
in all Palm applications. Any interested party should contact me
[2me@P...] regarding licensing questions and the buttonPanel
SDK." Using the "buttonPanel" Paul has worked out may make your task easier.

The pedit family also uses the sliding button concept developed by the
author of Fitaly and FitalyStamp to access characters not on the default
Fitaly screen or stamp.  In Fitaly, sliding a lower case letter [a] can
create that letter in upper case letter [A]. Or, directional sliding can be
used to create multiple variations [à, á, â, ã, ä, å].

Adapting the sliding concept to ShadowPlan it would not be necessary to have
three separate buttons for new (N, NC and NP).  A single item, say "New",
could be used for all three. Tapping "New" would create a new item on the
same level. Right Sliding "New" would create a new child, and Left Sliding
"New" would create a new parent.

In short, I would like an expert button bar--

Peter R. Grierson, Ph.D.

Not everything that can be counted is important, and
Not everything that is important can be counted.
  - Albert Einstein

From: samir.kasme@s...
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 8:55am
Subject: Re: Expert mode button bar?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > I know that instead of four "Push..." I would often select "Zoom 
inside", 
> > "unzoom", "expand memos", "collapse memos" ;-)
> 
> 	Really? I wouldn't have guessed that ;) (Zoom and Unzoom 
already
> available in the [V] menu is two taps. Do you zoom that much?) And
> expanding memos and such? Really? See how far off I am :)

Personnally, Zoom(inside level)/Unzoom and Expand/Collapse memos are 
among the commands I use most when working on a list (except of 
course the already available buttons like New, Child, Garbage bin 
etc.) Having these commands as buttons would certainly make things 
faster.
So add my vote for an Expert button bar...

By the way why not add list prefs as well? I don't know if it 
diserves a button, but it certainly diserves a shortcut IMO... I find 
myself tweaking at the list preferences (like word wrap, bulleting, 
etc.) reasonably often, and every single time I regret not having a 
shortcut for that..

Cheers
Samir

From: Alltel - don  <dk40410@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 0:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question

I'm using OS 3.1H2 on a visor Deluxe.
Don

----- Original Message -----
From: <peter.grierson@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:34 PM
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Anyone still up? :) OS version question


> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > How many people are still using OS 3.0 or OS 3.1?
>
> =====
> I am running:
>  -OS 3.5 on IIIc 2MB Flash ROM
>  -OS 3.3 on IIIx w/ Xtra Xtra Pro, therefore 4MB Flash ROM
>  -OS 3.1 on PP Pro w/ Palm RAM expansion and therefore 2MB Flash ROM.
>
> -----
> I did not see the point of upgrading to 3.5 when 4.0 was in the works.
>
> I am hoping I can upgrade all or at least the IIIc and IIIx to Palm
> OS 4 when it becomes available for the older models.  We will see.
>
> Peter R.
>
> "All Accounting is creative."
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

From: m_harlow@v...
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 0:50pm
Subject: Idea - Let children drive parent dates

In a post the other day, Jeff aksed what we thought of the idea of 
letting the earliest child date drive the date on a parent.  I think 
that's a great idea.  Here's my reasoning.

1) If you are using a parent as a task and the children as sub tasks, 
then each parent should be paid attention to on the date of it's 
earliest child.

2) If you checked off that earliest child, the date on the parent 
would advance to the next earliest child and the project can go out 
of mind w/o having to pop it open and review the dates on the 
children every day.

3) If you are still using the Palm todo app, you can link parents to 
that app and by completing children each day, you palm todo list will 
manage itself via the links.

What do others think of this idea?  I think it would really improve 
the project management aspects of Shadow Plan.

Thanks,
Matt

From: Ian M. Sacklow  <isacklow@d...>
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Idea - Let children drive parent dates

matt:
a way to carry dates through the list would be a great feature. personally
i was wondering if there was a way to set a pref to allow all new items to
take the date it was entered. i am working on a job log right now and it
slows things down trying to remember to set the start date.

jeff:
as for the expert mode buttons - the more the merrier as long as they can
be turned on and off and possibly customize which ones each person 
wants (similar to launcheriii gadgets maybe?)

ian

 On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 m_harlow@v... wrote:

> In a post the other day, Jeff aksed what we thought of the idea of 
> letting the earliest child date drive the date on a parent.  I think 
> that's a great idea.  Here's my reasoning.
> 
> 1) If you are using a parent as a task and the children as sub tasks, 
> then each parent should be paid attention to on the date of it's 
> earliest child.
> 
> 2) If you checked off that earliest child, the date on the parent 
> would advance to the next earliest child and the project can go out 
> of mind w/o having to pop it open and review the dates on the 
> children every day.
> 
> 3) If you are still using the Palm todo app, you can link parents to 
> that app and by completing children each day, you palm todo list will 
> manage itself via the links.
> 
> What do others think of this idea?  I think it would really improve 
> the project management aspects of Shadow Plan.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: Expert mode button bar?

Yike; lots of stuff here :)

	I wa thinking along the lines of a list of operations that can be
made into buttons, or perhaps just a giant checkbox (though the former
lets you put them into your bar in your preferred order). You keep adding
them. If each button is approx 11 pixels square (say), you can get about
12 across (guessing). So if you chose 15 options, you'd lose two
additional bottom rows from Shadows display.. it'd make 1.5 rows of
buttons for you. If you used 10 or 12 buttons, you'd lose one row.

	So you could sacrifice a row or two of display for a button bar,
if you so wish.

	Thoughts?

	As to sliding and whatnot.. interesting, but a bit of work to
develop, and seems like it could be futzy to me (I've had a lot of trouble
with some devices being more sensitive than others). Hmm.

		jeff

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Peter R Grierson wrote:

> =====
> ShadowPlan "Icon" buttons might be:
> 
> TOP ROW:
> N  = New item
> NC = New Child
> NP = New Parent [I miss this from my first outliner - MaxThink]
> U  = Undo
> X  = Cut
> C  = Copy
> P  = Paste
> S  = Select
> J  = Jump
> F  = Find [find within the current List]
> G  = Find Again (from the Mac environment)
> 
> BOTTOM ROW:
> OK = Okay
> D  = Details [Category, Private, Delete]
>    =
>    =
> L  = Lower case
> T  = Title case
> U  = Upper case
>    =
> ?  = Help
> R  = Revert to Last
> V  = Insert Clipboard or List
> >  = Recent Lists
> »  = Linked Applications [Datebook, DateBK3/4, Action Names, ToDo, etc.]
> 
> Liberally adapted from the menu buttons of the pedit family of text editors.
> 
> >From the pedit manual, "I hope the buttonPanel concept will become standard
> in all Palm applications. Any interested party should contact me
> [2me@P...] regarding licensing questions and the buttonPanel
> SDK." Using the "buttonPanel" Paul has worked out may make your task easier.
> 
> The pedit family also uses the sliding button concept developed by the
> author of Fitaly and FitalyStamp to access characters not on the default
> Fitaly screen or stamp.  In Fitaly, sliding a lower case letter [a] can
> create that letter in upper case letter [A]. Or, directional sliding can be
> used to create multiple variations [à, á, â, ã, ä, å].
> 
> Adapting the sliding concept to ShadowPlan it would not be necessary to have
> three separate buttons for new (N, NC and NP).  A single item, say "New",
> could be used for all three. Tapping "New" would create a new item on the
> same level. Right Sliding "New" would create a new child, and Left Sliding
> "New" would create a new parent.
> 
> In short, I would like an expert button bar--
> 
> Peter R. Grierson, Ph.D.
> 
> Not everything that can be counted is important, and
> Not everything that is important can be counted.
>   - Albert Einstein
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Popup scrollbar?

Yup - I want the scroll bar on the left since my hand is not 
invisible or transparent -- it's tough to know how far to scroll 
when you can see the screen. And I misspoke myself -- it 
is "lefthack", not leftyhack. I believe there is also one called 
lefty, but I use lefthack and find it does most of what is needed.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:
> 
> > I would like the standard operation of a scroll bar, except 
since I 
> > am left-handed, make sure it works with Lefty hack or the other 
one. 
> > My lists get pretty long and quickly being able to scan the list 
is 
> > important. 
> 
> 	What does LeftyHack do?
> 
> 	Southpaws like to have the scrollbar on the left?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 2:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Popup scrollbar?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:

> Yup - I want the scroll bar on the left since my hand is not 
> invisible or transparent -- it's tough to know how far to scroll 
> when you can see the screen. And I misspoke myself -- it 
> is "lefthack", not leftyhack. I believe there is also one called 
> lefty, but I use lefthack and find it does most of what is needed.

	I don't plan on updating the screen during scrolling anyway
(unless its fast enough, but due to Shadows complexity, linking support,
etc etc, it may not be possible to keep up to a fast scroll.) We'll see.

		jeff

> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:
> > 
> > > I would like the standard operation of a scroll bar, except 
> since I 
> > > am left-handed, make sure it works with Lefty hack or the other 
> one. 
> > > My lists get pretty long and quickly being able to scan the list 
> is 
> > > important. 
> > 
> > 	What does LeftyHack do?
> > 
> > 	Southpaws like to have the scrollbar on the left?
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
> micro
> > circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
> is?"
> > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: pg@d...
Date: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:16pm
Subject: Re: Idea - Let children drive parent dates

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., m_harlow@v... wrote:
> In a post the other day, Jeff aksed what we thought of the idea of 
> letting the earliest child date drive the date on a parent.  I 
think 
> that's a great idea.

Excellent idea.

In fact, I've been looking at ShadowPlan, but I couldn't work out how 
to get it to sort properly (as you describe). I joined this group to 
find out if there was something I was missing!

I've not committed to any other ToDo app because not one of them 
handles this, and for me it's absolutely essential. If the top-level 
item is due in 2008, but there's one child item due today, I want the 
whole project to be right up at the top. I can't risk missing the sub-
item because it's buried down at the bottom somewhere.

Progect *can* do this right with its 'flat' view (showing only 
terminal items i.e. ones without children). However, it's also too 
easy to inadvertently filter out items that need to be done. And it 
crashes slightly too often on my Palm.

Stil