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201

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:58pm
Subject: Re: Exporting Function

 
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 buch2001@u... wrote:

> Really like this program; like so many others, I registered it about 
> 15 minutes after I downloaded it. You and CESD have an excellent way 
> of providing support.

	Glad you dig it :)

> I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but I would really 
> like to see a more robust export of the data, i.e. Progect. Sometimes 
> it is easier to see  the complete tree on paper, and more detail 

	I know this is lacking; I've been working on making Shadow more
robust and on the conduit for the last couple of weeks. I have a backup
conduit now which dumps all your lists into XML files, and I and various
others are working on translators from XML into other things (like MSWord
and MSPRoject). That ought to help a lot. Eventually, two-way sync, too.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
202

From: kencn@a...
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Import Suggestion

 
Jeff, 

Here's an idea for import once you get the rest of the linking (to 
address, memo, etc.) fleshed out.  How about an import that works
like the Palm Find function.  In other words, a text search that
would search the entire Palm, or the applications that Shadow
supports linking with, and for each record that's found, an outline 
entry is created with a link to the original record (like todo's and 
appts today)  Maybe you could group the results them under headings 
for each application.  

I use abbreviations to identify a customer or project and then try to 
use them in appts, todo's memos and contact notes.  This would give
me a way to capture a linked list of all the records for a particular 
project or customer fairly quickly.  I'm not sure how useful other 
folks would find this or how much work it would be to implement but
it would be cool (I know,maybe not the best feature justification.) 
I've always wished the Palm find function were persistent, i.e. you 
could jump back and forth between the results list and the individual 
records.  This would go that one better, giving you results lists
that you could edit, reorganize and save.  

Just a thought.
Ken
203

From: ccahua@m...
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: instructions for taking an item to the top?, ideas

 
Hi,

I just downloaded 1.4 was was wondering how to take an item and moving 
it up to the top of the list.
I read the instructions for drag an drop and cut and paste, but I 
can't seem to move it unless the top item is moved below its 
underlings.

I'm registered with Arranger and your Shadows support blow it out of 
the water, but in Arranger this is a relatively simple task of 
dragging and dropping.
I would think that would be a good feature for Shadow to have.
Am I missing something?

Linking: 
I've used Rick Bram's Linker Hack to good measure by adding link tags 
to Shadow notes. The backlinking works too.

thanks again for the great support/listening. I'll be registering soon 
just for that!
204

From: cfralick@i...
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:41am
Subject: Re: Feature Request?

 
As exciting as it sounds, I use a lot of fairly long lists and check 
them off on a daily, weekly basis. It would be nice to be able to 
quickly remove the check marks and go to my next list. Although not 
an absolute need, just a thought. As far as a command goes, what ever 
is left. /Z?

Thanks for a truly useful piece of software. 

Clark Fralick
Teacher
205

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: instructions for taking an item to the top?, ideas

 
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 ccahua@m... wrote:

> I just downloaded 1.4 was was wondering how to take an item and moving 
> it up to the top of the list.
> I read the instructions for drag an drop and cut and paste, but I 
> can't seem to move it unless the top item is moved below its 
> underlings.

	The way I usually do it is to drag to second item, and then use
the graifitti push-up stroke (up/down) to push it up, or just drag the top
item to the the now second item, to swap them. I know its a two step
process to move to top.. I'll fix that up sometime, but I'm working on the
conduit and other things now (global find is fully functional in
development version :)

> I would think that would be a good feature for Shadow to have.
> Am I missing something?

	No, its my bad. I'm just trying topolish off the big important
todos of mine before going back and polishing off the drag and
drop. Sorry.

> I've used Rick Bram's Linker Hack to good measure by adding link tags 
> to Shadow notes. The backlinking works too.

	Cool. I'll have to take a look.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
206

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Import Suggestion

 
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> like the Palm Find function.  In other words, a text search that
> would search the entire Palm, or the applications that Shadow
> supports linking with, and for each record that's found, an outline 
> entry is created with a link to the original record (like todo's and 
> appts today)  Maybe you could group the results them under headings 
> for each application.  

	Bizarre and very neat idea :) I could see a lot of people never
using this, but those who use it woudl be super powerful :) I put it onto
my list.. very neat idea.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
207

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Feature Request?

 
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 cfralick@i... wrote:

> As exciting as it sounds, I use a lot of fairly long lists and check 
> them off on a daily, weekly basis. It would be nice to be able to 
> quickly remove the check marks and go to my next list. Although not 
> an absolute need, just a thought. As far as a command goes, what ever 
> is left. /Z?

	Anyone else have a suggestion for shortcut to uncheck all?

	I could perhaps sneak it under the [C] clipboard popmenu on the
topright. Just a "uncheck all" operation there, so as to avoid a shortcut.

> Thanks for a truly useful piece of software. 

	Thanks for enjoying it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
208

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 2:48am
Subject: Re: Import Suggestion

 
Excellent idea; lots of potential uses.

Put it on the list for after the conduit, desktop app, converters, 
etc., etc.

> > like the Palm Find function.  In other words, a text search that 
would search the entire Palm, or the applications that Shadow 
supports linking with, and for each record that's found, an outline 
entry is created with a link to the original record (like todo's and 
appts today)  Maybe you could group the results them under headings 
for each application.  

***********************************************************
BTW, just scored a copy of TRON.  My 9 year old son was jazzed.  

"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I 
mean, sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate 
he is?"
209

From: Michael Frazure  <frazure@m...>
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:52am
Subject: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
Is there a forum that discusses sample applications for Shadow?
210

From: Doug Roberts  <doug@b...>
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:41am
Subject: RE: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
I doubt there is a separate forum -- but I think this is a great idea for
this one (if others think this appropriate) -- to share how we use Shadow -
or suggestions for applications. What do you think?

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Frazure [mailto:frazure@m...]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 8:52 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] New User - Samples Anywhere?


Is there a forum that discusses sample applications for Shadow?



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211

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 1:13pm
Subject: Re: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Michael Frazure wrote:

> Is there a forum that discusses sample applications for Shadow?  

	This and the shadow-discuss mailing list would be the places; what
do you need to know? Shadow in general is an outliner, which is to say it
can do hierarchical list taking. You can use it in place of the Palm ToDo
application, use it to supplement your datebook application by grouping
items by priority, project, goal, whatever. People use it for shopping
lists all the way through full project management and design. It is quite
powerful in terms of organizing data and allowing you to juggle items
around. Much more is to come, too..

	Download it and play with it at your leisure.

	I just woke up, so ifI write much I'll put my foot in my mouth :)

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
212

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: RE: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Doug Roberts wrote:

> I doubt there is a separate forum -- but I think this is a great idea for
> this one (if others think this appropriate) -- to share how we use Shadow -
> or suggestions for applications. What do you think?

	Please do :) I've brought it up on occasion, and it'd be nice to
know. How do people integrate Shadow with their other palm applications
and lifestyle? 

	My needs are simpler than most -- I live in Shadow and ActionNames
(it coudl be Datebook4, too, but AN sort of hits me right :). I schedule
projects and tasks for my team via Shadow, with links to the datebook so
that I can set meeting times and alarms. Once I add tagging so that I can
allocate peopel to a task easier, I'll be really happy (thankfully coming
soon).

	I keep my CD and movie listings in Shadow, as well as pretty much
any piece of info on the palm (except address/phonebook stuff, for which I
use thinkDB)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
213

From: Victor Krongold  <victor.krongold@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 3:29pm
Subject: Keeping categories across apps

 
Jeff,

I would like to keep the categories whenever I link items to the todo 
app. I open a list under a certain category and all the items I add 
and link to ToDo should be added to the same category, if exists, or 
default to Unfiled if it does not exist.

Am I missing something or this feature is not implemented? 

Victor
214

From: Kevin  <kfosler@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Keeping categories across apps

 
I totally agree with Victor's suggestion!

Kevin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Victor Krongold 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 9:29 AM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Keeping categories across apps


  Jeff,

  I would like to keep the categories whenever I link items to the todo 
  app. I open a list under a certain category and all the items I add 
  and link to ToDo should be added to the same category, if exists, or 
  default to Unfiled if it does not exist.

  Am I missing something or this feature is not implemented? 

  Victor


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215

From: RobRose03@a...
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:57pm
Subject: Data File Causes Fatal Exception

 
Jeff - 

Just imported a file into Shadow (1.4) that causes now causes fatal 
exception every time I try to get into Shadow.  File was an export 
from ThinkDB 2.0, with several fields tab-delimited - so that it came 
into Shadow as a series of top level items with looong first lines.  
Any ideas?  Any way to get Shadow to fire up without it trying to 
open the last-used filed?

Thanks

Robert Rose
216

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:07pm
Subject: Re: Keeping categories across apps

 
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Victor Krongold wrote:

> I would like to keep the categories whenever I link items to the todo 
> app. I open a list under a certain category and all the items I add 
> and link to ToDo should be added to the same category, if exists, or 
> default to Unfiled if it does not exist.
> 
> Am I missing something or this feature is not implemented? 

	I'll implement once the conduit stuff settles a bit; your scheme
above is too restrictive, but I'll be sure to allow that sort of thing to
occur; I'm thinking of allowing a default list todo category, with
overrides by sublevel or somesuch... 

	I'm not sure on the timeline.. but its nearer to the top of my
list than the bottom :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
217

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Data File Causes Fatal Exception

 
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 RobRose03@a... wrote:

> Just imported a file into Shadow (1.4) that causes now causes fatal 
> exception every time I try to get into Shadow.  File was an export 
> from ThinkDB 2.0, with several fields tab-delimited - so that it came 
> into Shadow as a series of top level items with looong first lines.  
> Any ideas?  Any way to get Shadow to fire up without it trying to 
> open the last-used filed?

	An interesting find -- I shall have to make the importer not let
you kill it. Thanks for reporting it, but sorry for the problem.

	Shadows "last loaded list" is stored in its prefs. To blow away
the prefs easily, I think you can do a palm-side deletion of the Shadow
program and it ought to automatically remove the prefs (including your
registration, so you'll have to re-enter it). If your OS version isn't one
that removes prefs, then you coudl try deleting the bad file, and Shadow
won't be able to load it.

	Let me know if you still have problems and I'll work somethign out
for you.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
218

From: RobRose03@a...
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:50pm
Subject: Re: Data File Causes Fatal Exception

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	An interesting find -- I shall have to make the importer not 
let
> you kill it. Thanks for reporting it, but sorry for the problem.
> 
> 	Shadows "last loaded list" is stored in its prefs. To blow 
away
> the prefs easily, I think you can do a palm-side deletion of the 
Shadow
> program and it ought to automatically remove the prefs (including 
your
> registration, so you'll have to re-enter it). If your OS version 
isn't one
> that removes prefs, then you coudl try deleting the bad file, and 
Shadow
> won't be able to load it.
> 
> 	Let me know if you still have problems and I'll work 
somethign out
> for you.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

Jeff - 

Thanks for the help.  I just deleted the file.  Just to make sure I 
made myself clear, it seemed to go through the import process fine.  
It when I started re-arranging things in the file (and bouncing 
around between it and ThinkDB - with X-Master and McPhling) that I 
got the first fatal exception.  Hard to say whether it was something 
that resulted from the import or something I managed to introduce 
during my editing and bouncing around.  I'm trying it again, will let 
you know how I fare.

Robert Rose
219

From: frazure@m...
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 7:53pm
Subject: Re: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
Thanks Jeff,

I have begun using it for checklists (e.g., preparing for a trip) and 
keeping track of a program roll out across multiple offices.  How do 
you set up a project?  I link to the todo list which loads into MS 
Outlook in my office as well as datebook which does the same.

I haven't figured out what happens when I link an entry to another 
Shadow file.  I can't seem to find the entry in the other Shadow file.

Any other tricks for projects?

Thanks,

Mike

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Doug Roberts wrote:
> 
> > I doubt there is a separate forum -- but I think this is a great 
idea for
> > this one (if others think this appropriate) -- to share how we 
use Shadow -
> > or suggestions for applications. What do you think?
> 
> 	Please do :) I've brought it up on occasion, and it'd be nice 
to
> know. How do people integrate Shadow with their other palm 
applications
> and lifestyle? 
> 
> 	My needs are simpler than most -- I live in Shadow and 
ActionNames
> (it coudl be Datebook4, too, but AN sort of hits me right :). I 
schedule
> projects and tasks for my team via Shadow, with links to the 
datebook so
> that I can set meeting times and alarms. Once I add tagging so that 
I can
> allocate peopel to a task easier, I'll be really happy (thankfully 
coming
> soon).
> 
> 	I keep my CD and movie listings in Shadow, as well as pretty 
much
> any piece of info on the palm (except address/phonebook stuff, for 
which I
> use thinkDB)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
220

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 frazure@m... wrote:

> I have begun using it for checklists (e.g., preparing for a trip) and 
> keeping track of a program roll out across multiple offices.  How do 
> you set up a project?  I link to the todo list which loads into MS 
> Outlook in my office as well as datebook which does the same.
> 
> I haven't figured out what happens when I link an entry to another 
> Shadow file.  I can't seem to find the entry in the other Shadow file.

	Quite; linking to another Shadow file is different; its just an
easy way to jump to the other file, though it doesnt' link to an item in
that file (yet, anyway, though that may be coming).

	I have a Project category; inside are a bunch of Shadow files for
large scale projects.. a project coudl be "two company integration" -- a
very large scope; it includes top level items of majorheadings or
projects, and those have sublevels of main breakdowns. I may link to other
files to include checklists or designs or the like, and keep the file
sizes down and keep file types useful. It'll all change when I add mixed
types ot Shadow lists..

	I use the Shadow links as hyperlinks of sorts; I have "Back to
prject" and "jump to project designs, stage one" and stuff like that as
links, to make navigating easy :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
221

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 5:37am
Subject: Re: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
> I haven't figured out what happens when I link an entry to another 
> Shadow file.  I can't seem to find the entry in the other Shadow 
file.
> 
> Any other tricks for projects?


I use one main list.  It has all my to do items.
I have several other lists.  Remodel, for anything relating to my 
current remodel, Pawprints, for the newsletter that I edit at my 
son's school, etc...

My main list has links to each of the other lists (I keep them down 
at the bottom of the list).  I can scan thru all my current to dos at 
the top of my main list without filling the list with the myriad of 
items involved in the other tasks.  But I can jump to any of those 
lists quickly.  That's all the link to shadow file does.  Instead of 
saying "done", and opening a new file, you follow the link to the new 
file.

The first item in each of the sublists is "back to Main".  When Jeff 
finishes the conduit, and begins working on the Palm app again, this 
line will no longer be necessary.

I also have a few permanent tasks in the main list, like "Phone 
calls" and "Billing", things that I do all the time.  I create child 
tasks under these, and delete them when done.  The appearance of the 
collapsed arrow lets me know that I still have calls to make, or that 
I have not billed a client for work done...

tommyb
222

From: demetrios@c...
Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 9:39pm
Subject: Re: New User - Samples Anywhere?

 
Personally, I like to use Shadow for the more complicated stuff. 
The multi-tiered sort of list. If I need just a checklist, like 
groceries or my videos or CD's or some such, I like HandyShopper 2 
{http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?
sid=92669920000604004106&prodID=5314}. It has a lot of nice touches, 
some of which would be nice in Shadow, but it is not hierarchically 
set up, which is one the main points of Shadow.

   I like the hyperlinking to other Shadow files, going back & forth 
is great. I like to use the linking so that I can meld different 
lists together to make an even bigger list, if you see what I mean. I 
think it'll be even better when Jeff gets it down to linking directly 
to individual items within the same list or others.

Demetrios, 
VisionMaster@C...
Are You too, a Captive of the Visions?
223

From: david.keltie@z...
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 2:22pm
Subject: Links to address book/todo list

 
I'm trying out Shadow Plan. Whenever I change the date of an item 
added in shadow plan in Action Names it creates a broken link in 
shadow. Is that the way its s'pposed to be?

If so, is there any likelihood that the link could be maintained in a 
future release?

Thanks.
224

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Links to address book/todo list

 
On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 david.keltie@z... wrote:

> I'm trying out Shadow Plan. Whenever I change the date of an item 
> added in shadow plan in Action Names it creates a broken link in 
> shadow. Is that the way its s'pposed to be?

	Depends on Action Names; changing a date in a record should just
change the date. If the application creates a new record and deletes the
old one, then Shadow would report a "broken link", since it can nolonger
find the record it created. If AN is being naughty, theres not much we can
do about it :/ 

	I didn't think AN did that, but I'd have to check.

	(ie: You link an item from Shadow to the datebook; pull up action
names and its there. Change the date in it. Go back to Shadow, and
broken? Odd. IF so, its AN's fault :/)

> If so, is there any likelihood that the link could be maintained in a 
> future release?

	Not unless I did a lot of magic; If AN is doing this, theres not a
lot I can do :(

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
225

From: kencn@a...
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 5:45pm
Subject: Re: Links to address book/todo list

 
Jeff,

FYI, I don't see this behavior.  I can create an item in Shadow, 
create links to an appt and a todo in Action Names, change the dates 
of the items multiple times in Action Names and the link remains 
intact.  I don't know if it makes a difference, but I'm using the 4.55 
beta of AN.  This release adds support for global find so I guess it's 
conceivable things could have changed in the database area.  

Ken



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 david.keltie@z... wrote:
> 
> > I'm trying out Shadow Plan. Whenever I change the date of an item 
> > added in shadow plan in Action Names it creates a broken link in 
> > shadow. Is that the way its s'pposed to be?
> 
> 	Depends on Action Names; changing a date in a record should 
just
> change the date. If the application creates a new record and deletes 
the
> old one, then Shadow would report a "broken link", since it can 
nolonger
> find the record it created. If AN is being naughty, theres not much 
we can
> do about it :/ 
> 
> 	I didn't think AN did that, but I'd have to check.
> 
> 	(ie: You link an item from Shadow to the datebook; pull up 
action
> names and its there. Change the date in it. Go back to Shadow, and
> broken? Odd. IF so, its AN's fault :/)
> 
> > If so, is there any likelihood that the link could be maintained 
in a 
> > future release?
> 
> 	Not unless I did a lot of magic; If AN is doing this, theres 
not a
> lot I can do :(
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
226

From: frazure@m...
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:20am
Subject: What a Delight!

 
Thank you very much for sharing your uses for Shadow.  I have been 
with it a week now, and like the way I can plan within Shadow link to 
the datebook those items requiring my attention; going to the 
datebook the night before and setting the time or resetting the date 
for addressing the issue;  and then syncing up with MS Outlook to 
ensure my company calendar locks up the time for group availability, 
etc.

The link to the ToDo list seems to be a good place for my follow up 
reminders for tasks for which my people are responsible.

Your ideas on linking to other files works well, too.

Now, if I can break my habit of trying something for two weeks and 
losing patience with it.

I appreciate everyone's input.

Is there a good program for speeding up text entry?  I use grafitti 
but it is like signing every letter of a word instead of using 
shortcuts as in sign language.

Thanks,

Mike
227

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:44am
Subject: Re: What a Delight!

 
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 frazure@m... wrote:

> Is there a good program for speeding up text entry?  I use grafitti 
> but it is like signing every letter of a word instead of using 
> shortcuts as in sign language.

	I've never used it, but you can set up grafitti shortcuts.. so you
could do a couple swipes and have a whole word pop out. Check your palm
manual.. I don't know how to do it offhand :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
228

From: David Keltie  <david.keltie@z...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:05am
Subject: RE: Text Entry

 
Getting off topic here....but someone asked.

Try Word Complete (a programme not a hack - but works across most progs). It
pops up suggestions after a user-configurable number of letters is entered.
Has its own list of words to which you can add your own on the fly! Produced
by CIC (sorry no URL but do a search at palmgear.com).

Essential app in my view!

Dave

PS It works in Shadow perfectly. Think I'm going to register now I've sorted
out my AN link....My reservation is the low cost!

Jeff: Can you really make enough money on this to continue development? I've
registered several third-party apps only to find development has halted
before the app is really ready for prime-time (though with a proper conduit
yours looks about there....). Course you could go the way of eg datebook and
keep adding user-suggested features until it stops doing things sweetly and
simply.

Having said that ;-) is a link to the expense app (or Quick or Tiny
Sheet)possible. Would be cool to link costs to tasks and vice versa....
229

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:50pm
Subject: Re: What a Delight!

 
> Is there a good program for speeding up text entry?  I use
> grafitti but it is like signing every letter of a word instead
> of using shortcuts as in sign language.

Try these:

TextPlus
http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=4037

MagicText
http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=1493

Pop!
http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?prodID=1150

Roy.
230

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 1:11pm
Subject: RE: Text Entry

 
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, David Keltie wrote:

> Jeff: Can you really make enough money on this to continue development? I've
> registered several third-party apps only to find development has halted

	Its not my full time job (though I produce enough versions to make
you wonder ;) so it doesn't need to pay my mortgage (but it woudl be nice
if it coudl do that!)  I'd rather increase its revenue through good solid
sales to happy people, then through making it expensive.

> before the app is really ready for prime-time (though with a proper conduit
> yours looks about there....). Course you could go the way of eg datebook and
> keep adding user-suggested features until it stops doing things sweetly and

	That is very hard; Its really difficult to nail down what should
or should not be done. You cannot imagine how many requests I get.. my
list goes on and on and on..

> Having said that ;-) is a link to the expense app (or Quick or Tiny
> Sheet)possible. Would be cool to link costs to tasks and vice versa....

	Possible but how effective depends on the other side. Link to load
most major databases is possible. I've not worried about expense yet, but
am aiming to link to address and memos soon, and DOCs and such. 1.4.9 is
poised to link to anythign under the sun.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
231

From: Victor Krongold  <victor.krongold@c...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 1:58pm
Subject: Display Preferences

 
Jeff,

What about the wordwrap feature? A nice feature to introduce would be 
to allow the word wrapping setting inside each particular list 
instead of setting it as a genric display preference, and better if 
you can do it through a graffiti command.

Saludos

Victor
232

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Display Preferences

 
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Victor Krongold wrote:

> What about the wordwrap feature? A nice feature to introduce would be 
> to allow the word wrapping setting inside each particular list 
> instead of setting it as a genric display preference, and better if 
> you can do it through a graffiti command.

	Toggle on and off WW on a whole list? I dont' think that'd be too
useful as a grafitti. I am eventually planning to add an ability to
collapse/expand WW on a title by title bnasis by tapping on the elipses
<...> following collapsed titles. I'll move the option to a list specific
one, too, when I get a chance. (so far concentrating on the conduits; and
being distracted by a very busy work week :(

	("Damn real work") ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
233

From: Jim Robbins  <web_egroups@r...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:40pm
Subject: Linking

 
I've noticed an increasing number of requests to link to various programs. I
also remember asking for back-linking myself. I don't know if there is a
perfect way to support record-level linking in all apps; therefore, it will
likely be necessary to communicate with a program (or its database) to
create a link to it. Rather than having every developer write the code to
link to certain requested databases, a standard should be created to allow
linking between any program.

Jeff, do you know if there is any effort among Palm developers to support a
linking standard? Ideally, Palm would create such a standard an include it
in a future OS update. Alternately, and probably more likely, a de facto
standard will emerge from the developer community. This would be similar to
the way system hacks were standardized by Edward Keyes releasing HackMaster
back in 1996.

I believe that LinkMaster (http://linkmaster.sourceforge.net/) and Linker
(http://www.digitalglyph.com/) have published an (seperate) APIs to support
linking between applications. I have a preference for LinkMaster because it
is free and the source is available under the GNU license. However, I
certainly don't mind paying DigitalGlyph for their work if they don't charge
developers to add linking to their applications and their linking API and
support is more robust than LinkMaster.

If you don't know of such a standard developing, could you contact the
developers of other popular shareware (like DateBk, Action Names,
AddressBook+, etc.) and try to promote a common standard? If several of the
popular applications support a common linking standard then that will create
a large incentive for other developers to support the same standard.

Here are my thoughts on the requirements a linking standard would need:

1)  Create link by selecting app to link to and launching it. It will return
info about the to the calling app. This is necessary because it is very
difficult to understand the database format of every possible linkable
program.

2)  Activate a stored link by launching appropriate app and passing it link
information. That app then goes to the appropriate record.

3)  Applications will need to be able to link to the basic Palm apps. Many
people haven't added third-party programs to replace the built-in
applications and would need to link to the Date Book, Address Book, or To-Do
List.

In addition to these basic requirements, it would be nice if the standard
supported some way of automatically creating back-links. For instance, in
the example above, the calling app would also pass information about its
record to the app to be linked to. The linked app, if it supported
back-linking, would create a link back to the calling app using that
information. This way the user doesn't have to create the back-link
manually. The option of creating an automatic backlink could be stored in
the app preferences.

This form of linking should not require an external linking program to be
available. The linking structures and (possible) helper functions could be
available in a library or include file that the individual developers build
into their apps. Alternately, if several helper functions are created, these
could be built into a library that is installed on the Palm as a seperate
app (much like the MathLib library used by some programs). If a global
library is installed then the preference for back-linking could be stored in
this library and queried by all link compatible programs.

I haven't looked at the API for Linker, but the API documentation for
LinkMaster seems to fulfill the two basic requirements above. I didn't see
any mention of automatic back-linking, but I haven't examined the structures
to see if back-linking is supported there. I did notice that being a link
container (an app that creates links) required an app to create a link
structure for the record where the link is inserted. This means that
back-linking might be supported in the future without much change to the
app.

Just some thoughts,

Jim
234

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Linking

 
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Jim Robbins wrote:

> Jeff, do you know if there is any effort among Palm developers to support a
> linking standard? Ideally, Palm would create such a standard an include it
> in a future OS update. Alternately, and probably more likely, a de facto
> standard will emerge from the developer community. This would be similar to
> the way system hacks were standardized by Edward Keyes releasing HackMaster
> back in 1996.

	LinkMaster is being increasingly more supported. 1.4.0 could not
do it, but 1.4.9 are friends are closer to supporting it. I've just not
had time to worry about it yet..

> 1)  Create link by selecting app to link to and launching it. It will return
> info about the to the calling app. This is necessary because it is very
> difficult to understand the database format of every possible linkable
> program.

	Current linking proposals are just launch-and-goto, a la
find. Palm OS just isn't (yet?) well suited to apps reading each others
databases :/

> record to the app to be linked to. The linked app, if it supported
> back-linking, would create a link back to the calling app using that
> information. This way the user doesn't have to create the back-link
> manually. The option of creating an automatic backlink could be stored in
> the app preferences.

	The main difficulty here is the UI updates.. every app has to do
some actual work to support it. We'll see how well it catches on. I'm all
for it, of course :)

> I haven't looked at the API for Linker, but the API documentation for
> LinkMaster seems to fulfill the two basic requirements above. I didn't see
> any mention of automatic back-linking, but I haven't examined the structures
> to see if back-linking is supported there. I did notice that being a link

	Automatic back linking isn't likely, as you cannot assume a two
way relationship is feasible or useful. But certainly an optional backlink
is desirable, and I think LM can support that (or if not, its easily
added).

	I'm in a rush, so can't detail a response.. but I think you get my
drift. I'm all for LinkMaster.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
235

From: Peter R. Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Import Suggestion

 
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:10:53 -0000
   From: kencn@a...
Subject: Import Suggestion

When working on a file I will leave symbols [/\, ??, etc] to indicate
additional work to be done.  I can search for the symbols but twith no way
to put them in a list, it is hard to know which are the high and low
priorities.

If this gets added I would use it often.  

Peter R.
"All Accounting is creative."

====

<snip> How about an import that works like the Palm Find function.  <snip>
Maybe you could group the results them under headings for each application.  

I use abbreviations to identify a customer or project and then try to 
use them in appts, todo's memos and contact notes.  This would give
me a way to capture a linked list of all the records for a particular 
project or customer fairly quickly.  I'm not sure how useful other 
folks would find this or how much work it would be to implement but
it would be cool (I know,maybe not the best feature justification.) 
I've always wished the Palm find function were persistent, i.e. you 
could jump back and forth between the results list and the individual 
records.  This would go that one better, giving you results lists
that you could edit, reorganize and save.  

Just a thought.
Ken
236

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:05pm
Subject: Re: Text Entry

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "David Keltie" <david.keltie@z...> wrote:
> Getting off topic here....but someone asked.
> 
> Try Word Complete (a programme not a hack - but works across most 
progs). It
> pops up suggestions after a user-configurable number of letters is 
entered.
> Has its own list of words to which you can add your own on the fly! 
Produced
> by CIC (sorry no URL but do a search at palmgear.com).
> 
> Essential app in my view!
> 
> Dave

No one has mentioned the obvious.  FitalyStamp.  I can't recommend it 
enough.  I get like 55 wpm in it, just using my stylus.  Give it a 
try, it is free to try out.

-Joe Chott
237

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Text Entry

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "David Keltie" <david.keltie@z...> wrote:
> Getting off topic here....but someone asked.
> 
> Try Word Complete (a programme not a hack - but works across most 
progs). It
> pops up suggestions after a user-configurable number of letters is 
entered.
> Has its own list of words to which you can add your own on the fly! 
Produced
> by CIC (sorry no URL but do a search at palmgear.com).
> 
> Essential app in my view!
> 
> Dave

No one has mentioned the obvious.  FitalyStamp.  I can't recommend it 
enough.  I get like 55 wpm in it, just using my stylus.  Give it a 
try, it is free to try out.

-Joe Chott
238

From: cfralick@i...
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:16am
Subject: Pen Computing Review

 
There is a glowing review of Shadow in the March Issue of Pen 
Computing
239

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 0:49pm
Subject: Re: Pen Computing Review

 
On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 cfralick@i... wrote:

> There is a glowing review of Shadow in the March Issue of Pen 
> Computing

	On the stands now? woowoo! :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
240

From: martin_jahr@h...
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:01pm
Subject: Re: Linking

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	Automatic back linking isn't likely, as you cannot assume a 
two
> way relationship is feasible or useful. 

Jeff, what do you think about a more dynamic approach for links? 
Consider 

- links which have names, you could easily determine why the link was 
set at all.

- links which explicitly allow two-way relationships by providing two 
names (like "Is-Father-Of" and "Is-Son-Of", depending on the item you 
selected to see the link)

- links which have entity restrictions (like 1:1, 1:n, ...) to 
constraint input to a predefined structure.

- link types which are selectable from a predefined popup

- links that have a limited time of existence

....

Having this extended link approach over different apps would sure be 
a killer, but even within Shadow, it would dramatically increase real-
world data management. The world is a web of things, not a tree :|

(you won't run out of work, will you? :)

-Martin
241

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Linking

 
Nasty :)

	I'm going to add linking to other objects on the palm; and I'll
improive linking between items in Shadow lists. But I'm not prepared (yet
anyway :P) to revolutionize linking on the palm.. that'd be a 3rd job
(Shadow is a 2nd one :P). I will support LinkMaster, though, which ought
to get you a lot of things you need, without making me work an extra
lifetime :)

	Oh, if only there was more time in the day..

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 martin_jahr@h... wrote:

> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> > 	Automatic back linking isn't likely, as you cannot assume a 
> two
> > way relationship is feasible or useful. 
> 
> Jeff, what do you think about a more dynamic approach for links? 
> Consider 
> 
> - links which have names, you could easily determine why the link was 
> set at all.
> 
> - links which explicitly allow two-way relationships by providing two 
> names (like "Is-Father-Of" and "Is-Son-Of", depending on the item you 
> selected to see the link)
> 
> - links which have entity restrictions (like 1:1, 1:n, ...) to 
> constraint input to a predefined structure.
> 
> - link types which are selectable from a predefined popup
> 
> - links that have a limited time of existence
> 
> ....
> 
> Having this extended link approach over different apps would sure be 
> a killer, but even within Shadow, it would dramatically increase real-
> world data management. The world is a web of things, not a tree :|
> 
> (you won't run out of work, will you? :)
> 
> -Martin
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
242

From: Jim Robbins  <web_egroups@r...>
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 9:21pm
Subject: Shadow and Flash RAM

 
How well does ShadowPlan work with Flash RAM?

1) Can the main program can run from flash?

2) Can read-only lists be stored in flash and accessed as normal lists
(i.e. - show up in main screen, can be link targets, etc)

I vaguely remember something about ShadowPlan modifying itself so it
couldn't be stored in flash RAM. However, I am unable to find anything in
the FAQ, manual, or forum archives that mentions the word flash.

If Shadow does modify itself as some form of shareware protection, could it
be stored in flash once it was registered?

Thanks,

Jim
243

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 10:15pm
Subject: Re: Shadow and Flash RAM

 
On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, Jim Robbins wrote:

> 1) Can the main program can run from flash?

	Perfectly fine.

> 2) Can read-only lists be stored in flash and accessed as normal lists
> (i.e. - show up in main screen, can be link targets, etc)

	I've not checked; writing to flash will crahs Shadow at this time,
but I've not experimented with a lis tintended for read only. I should add
a read-only list-pref, so that you dont' accidentally alter a list and
crash your unit if its in flash :P

> I vaguely remember something about ShadowPlan modifying itself so it
> couldn't be stored in flash RAM. However, I am unable to find anything in
> the FAQ, manual, or forum archives that mentions the word flash.

	Shadow is happy in flash; thats where I keep it :)

> If Shadow does modify itself as some form of shareware protection, could it
> be stored in flash once it was registered?

	No palm app shoudl be self modifying; thats just wrong :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
244

From: martin_jahr@h...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 4:24pm
Subject: SyncML

 
Jeff,

while building your conduit - did you ever hear about SyncML 
(http://www.syncml.org) ? I just stumbled over it by eandom... Seems 
to be a pretty idea to support an opne standard for syncing 
applications and devices.

-Martin
245

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 7:03pm
Subject: if not a bug, then a bug-me!

 
Jeff,

create a new task. (or create a note)

before clicking OK, switch to another app or the launcher via either 
silk or hardware buttons.

return to Shadow.  Your task (or note) is not saved.

I frequently hit the calculator silk with my little finger by 
mistake, while graffiti-ing.  anything I have entered is lost.  
Frustrating.  Also, you lose the ability to switch back and forth to 
other apps in order to cut and paste.

Once you return to the task list, dirty files are saved when 
switching.  Don't you think that this behavior should stay 
consistent?  Is there a reason that you would want to lose a new task 
when switching?

tommyb
246

From: Philippe D. Radley  <pradley@r...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 7:45pm
Subject:

 
Every time I link a task to the ToDo list, the new todo comes out as
complete, which to me makes no sense, since what I have created is something
to be done in the future. How can I change this? I see no option to do so.
Philippe D. Radley
247

From: pig_duck1119@y...
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 10:09pm
Subject: Import To-Do list

 
Hi Jeff,

I wonder if you will implement "To-DO list import" soon.

Right now I am using ShadowPlan to track my project. I put a link to 
the To-Do for every entries so that I can see all of them from 
DateBk4. However, the problem is sometime when I create a ToDo from 
Datebk4. I have no way to still keep a sychronize copy of To-Do. 

I'd say if shadowplan has an option to sychronize To-do under a 
directory or even an option to import To-Do is sufficient to me.

Pig
248

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 10:52pm
Subject: Transition from ListMaker

 
Before purchasing Shadow, I was using ListMaker as an outliner. Right 
now, I still have large amounts of data "locked up" in ListMaker 
which I'd love to have in Shadow.

However, exporting from ListMaker to MemoPad doesn't work because 
several of my lists exceed the 4K limit. Also, the lists that I did 
manage to export to MemoPad didn't import into Shadow correctly. I 
believe this to be a problem with the way ListMaker formats its 
output to MemoPad.

Is there any other way to get my lists from ListMaker into Shadow? 
Right now I have to hold on to ListMaker just because I don't want to 
loose my information.

Roy.
249

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 0:24am
Subject: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
Try one of the clipboard enhancers, like MultiClipHack or others.  
These can expand the clipboard to 32K

tommyb

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...> wrote:
> Before purchasing Shadow, I was using ListMaker as an outliner. 
Right 
> now, I still have large amounts of data "locked up" in ListMaker 
> which I'd love to have in Shadow.
> 
> However, exporting from ListMaker to MemoPad doesn't work because 
> several of my lists exceed the 4K limit. Also, the lists that I did 
> manage to export to MemoPad didn't import into Shadow correctly. I 
> believe this to be a problem with the way ListMaker formats its 
> output to MemoPad.
> 
> Is there any other way to get my lists from ListMaker into Shadow? 
> Right now I have to hold on to ListMaker just because I don't want 
to 
> loose my information.
> 
> Roy.
250

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 2:04pm
Subject: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
I have a clipboard enhancer, but I don't see how that could help me. 
My problem is not limited clipboard capacity, but the 4K limit that 
MemoPad imposes.

The clipboard is only useful if I wanted to copy & paste my lists 
from ListMaker to Shadow line by line which would be far too 
laborious and for which the default clipboard size would be more than 
sufficient.

Roy.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., tommyb@i... wrote:
> Try one of the clipboard enhancers, like MultiClipHack or others.  
> These can expand the clipboard to 32K
> 
> tommyb
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...> 
wrote:
> > Before purchasing Shadow, I was using ListMaker as an outliner. 
> Right 
> > now, I still have large amounts of data "locked up" in ListMaker 
> > which I'd love to have in Shadow.
> > 
> > However, exporting from ListMaker to MemoPad doesn't work because 
> > several of my lists exceed the 4K limit. Also, the lists that I 
did 
> > manage to export to MemoPad didn't import into Shadow correctly. 
I 
> > believe this to be a problem with the way ListMaker formats its 
> > output to MemoPad.
> > 
> > Is there any other way to get my lists from ListMaker into 
Shadow? 
> > Right now I have to hold on to ListMaker just because I don't 
want 
> to 
> > loose my information.
> > 
> > Roy.
251

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> Before purchasing Shadow, I was using ListMaker as an outliner. Right 
> now, I still have large amounts of data "locked up" in ListMaker 
> which I'd love to have in Shadow.

	Great  :)

> However, exporting from ListMaker to MemoPad doesn't work because 
> several of my lists exceed the 4K limit. Also, the lists that I did 

	ListMaker doesn't hewlp you by breaking them up automatically? Tsk
tsk. you could export to memo, then cut out the items that didn't fit, and
export some more. Sucky, but I guess you have few options.

> manage to export to MemoPad didn't import into Shadow correctly. I 
> believe this to be a problem with the way ListMaker formats its 
> output to MemoPad.

	Every app does it differently Shadows import format is fairly
generic and works with lots of apps, but not all sadly.

> Is there any other way to get my lists from ListMaker into Shadow? 
> Right now I have to hold on to ListMaker just because I don't want to 
> loose my information.

	The typical way (albeit a little painful), is to export to memo
and sync to desktop. You can manipulate the memos on your desktop to fit
shadows import format, and then sync to get the memos back to the palm and
then import them into Shadow.  A few steps but it works.

	More options will become available over the next month or two, as
I add more desktop tools to Shadow; eventually you should be able to
import from the desktop to shadow, which gives you much more power.

	Let me know if I can help.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
252

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 10:28pm
Subject: Re: Import To-Do list

 
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 pig_duck1119@y... wrote:

> Right now I am using ShadowPlan to track my project. I put a link to 
> the To-Do for every entries so that I can see all of them from 
> DateBk4. However, the problem is sometime when I create a ToDo from 
> Datebk4. I have no way to still keep a sychronize copy of To-Do. 
> 
> I'd say if shadowplan has an option to sychronize To-do under a 
> directory or even an option to import To-Do is sufficient to me.

	You can already import all the todos, but I think you wish to pick
up one at a time. I will be adding a "Create from existing..." menu item,
to allow you to pick up existing todo and datebook items. I've just not
decided how best to create a UI for it. Once I nail down a simple UI, I'll
add it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
253

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 10:11pm
Subject: Re: SyncML

 
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 martin_jahr@h... wrote:

> while building your conduit - did you ever hear about SyncML 
> (http://www.syncml.org) ? I just stumbled over it by eandom... Seems 
> to be a pretty idea to support an opne standard for syncing 
> applications and devices.

	I did stumble across it awhile back; I don't recall my thoughts of
the time, but it didn't seem ready for my use. I don't recall if they had
too much overhead, or if it was for what we need it for, or if it just
wasn't ready yet or not.. I shall have ot revisit it perhaps. If its an
open standard, I'm all for supporting it. Perhaps I'll support my own,
anmd then add theirs as well..

	I've found a few standards so far, and most are not well defined
enough to be of value. Thats one big problem with standards...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
254

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 10:24pm
Subject: Re:

 
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Philippe D. Radley wrote:

> Every time I link a task to the ToDo list, the new todo comes out as
> complete, which to me makes no sense, since what I have created is something
> to be done in the future. How can I change this? I see no option to do so.

	This is curious; a new item is created unchecked, and as such when
linked should also be unchecked. Are you linking a completed shadow item
to the todo? (In which case, the todo must also be completed, since they
are linked and effectively one and the same). If you wish to have a
completed shadow item become an incomplete todo item, you will need to
link the item, and then orphan it. It will be a copy of the shadow item at
creation time, but will then not be connected in the future, and thus may
be completed on its own.

	Does that help?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
255

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 10:19pm
Subject: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!

 
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 tommyb@i... wrote:

> create a new task. (or create a note)
> 
> before clicking OK, switch to another app or the launcher via either 
> silk or hardware buttons.
> 
> return to Shadow.  Your task (or note) is not saved.

	By design; few apps will maintain the fact that you were in that
window and return to it. The question is whethor or not the details should
be saved.

	I intend to have a "Save before exitting?" alert for just such an
occasion. Seems to be the best overall solution.

> Once you return to the task list, dirty files are saved when 
> switching.  Don't you think that this behavior should stay 
> consistent?  Is there a reason that you would want to lose a new task 
> when switching?

	New is one thing; editting an existing one is another... if you
accidentally switch apps after making a bad change, it could be terrible
to come back to a trashed item. An alert ought to make it moot.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
256

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 3:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
I think memopad memos can *actually* be longer than 4k, but the
memopad application can't deal with them. What happens when ListMaker
exports them? If its only going from LM to Shadow, you might be able to
doit. Then we just need to delete the memos withotu using memopad :)

		jeff

On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> I have a clipboard enhancer, but I don't see how that could help me. 
> My problem is not limited clipboard capacity, but the 4K limit that 
> MemoPad imposes.
> 
> The clipboard is only useful if I wanted to copy & paste my lists 
> from ListMaker to Shadow line by line which would be far too 
> laborious and for which the default clipboard size would be more than 
> sufficient.
> 
> Roy.
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., tommyb@i... wrote:
> > Try one of the clipboard enhancers, like MultiClipHack or others.  
> > These can expand the clipboard to 32K
> > 
> > tommyb
> > 
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...> 
> wrote:
> > > Before purchasing Shadow, I was using ListMaker as an outliner. 
> > Right 
> > > now, I still have large amounts of data "locked up" in ListMaker 
> > > which I'd love to have in Shadow.
> > > 
> > > However, exporting from ListMaker to MemoPad doesn't work because 
> > > several of my lists exceed the 4K limit. Also, the lists that I 
> did 
> > > manage to export to MemoPad didn't import into Shadow correctly. 
> I 
> > > believe this to be a problem with the way ListMaker formats its 
> > > output to MemoPad.
> > > 
> > > Is there any other way to get my lists from ListMaker into 
> Shadow? 
> > > Right now I have to hold on to ListMaker just because I don't 
> want 
> > to 
> > > loose my information.
> > > 
> > > Roy.
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
257

From: Terry Kyte  <kyte@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 4:15am
Subject: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
I was just looking at Bonsai (http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm) and
noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers the option
to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan compares overall
to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
Timeframe?
258

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 4:42am
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:

> I was just looking at Bonsai (http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm) and
> noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers the option
> to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan compares overall
> to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
> Timeframe?

	You know, I was expecting this any day now :) It appears Bonsai is
the only real competitor of Shadow (though again, do they have a different
goal than I?)

	Feature to feature, I think Shadow comes out on top, though as
always I do not use my competitors tools, so I do not really know. I think
Shadow ahs a slightly different target user, so your mileage may very,
though I'm pretty sure Shadow is more buff overall. I don't wish to steal
features or ideas (since they may not be what my users need or want, and
they might just be dumb features to start with, and I do not wish to go
the same direction as someone else.. I wish to go the direction my users
need of me). I think Shadow itself is the best of the outliners. Desktop
side, they obviously win at this time, since they have a conduit and
desktop app (though last I used their desktop app, it was buggy.. but it
does work well). My conduit is currently one-way only. I have translator
tools in the works (to make it easy to get Shadow files to other apps and
to print, etc), and a desktop app in the works (Shadow, but for the
desktop). They will be coming out in stages .. since I can only work on
one thing at a time. Export to DOC (and import) are coming very soon in
the handheld. Also note that Shadow is much more poweful in the linking
area.. I spend a lot of time making Shadow work well with other apps and
allowing you to use Shadow to group other appos data into your projects
(1.5 will be a fun release!)

	Service, I think I win hands down, though I would say that of
larger companies, they have good service (ie: Go talk to Aportis and see
bad service). But I host mailing lists and web forums, and answers those
plus email very fast. Very few palm apps are updated as frequently as
Shadow, and I doubt many have as personal a touch -- you want something,
its likely you'll get it in Shadow if its a good idea.

	So, toe to toe, I think Shadow has more features and power on the
palmside, and Bonsai has the desktop side. I think I have them beat on
service and support, though they're pretty decent in that arena.

	I think I have more momentum.. I may be one person, but I work
hard. They are a few people, but they have a half dozen things on the go.

	In the end, I don't wish to put them out of business. I think its
good to have two good products in the market (plus progect.. though in the
last month or two I've not heard much about it? Is it in trouble?). I
think we're pretty equal these days, though I hope to have a desktop app
and make my conduit two-way soon.

	I'm going at a different angle, too, though -- my desktop app and
conduit are slower to develop, since they're on open standards, and my
translator tools will let you take Shadow data into other already existing
desktop apps. I think Bonsai is sticking with a more closed approach,
since its easier to develop fopr and support.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
259

From: Kevin  <kfosler@h...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 7:00am
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
My 2 cents.

I think Shadow and Bonsai right now serve two slightly different audiences.  I use both products.  Shadow integrates much better with To-Do and Datebook, although to complete that integration I think it has to have ways to import items from those databases (like Arranger, which has become obsoleted by other products).

Bonsai doesn't integrate very well with the built-in databases, but the desktop is pretty good.  It offers true syncronization, so is a step above Brainforest.

As far as service goes, I think it would be hard to beat Shadow (aka Jeff's) service.  We became introduced when I gave him a low rating (and had subsequent constructive discussion in e-mail).

Right now, I'm trying ListPro on the Pocket PC.  Through Audible.com I was able to get a Casio EM-500 for $259.  There are a lot of things I like about the Pocket PC compared to the Palm -- notes can be in normal handwriting, the Transcriber handwriting recognition leaves graffiti in the dust, audio notes can be attached to appointments, tasks, etc, and Audio books / MP3's can be listened to on the devices too.

I think Palm will need to come out with products that can compete in some of those areas, or Palm will go the way of Netscape, losing market share once MS and its hardware partners hit the sweet spot.  I'm not sure when the timing of the Palms with the ARM processors will be, but hopefully soon -- hopefully by summer? although I have heard by the end of the year.

Fortunately, with Intellisync 4 for the Palm and ActiveSync 3.1 for the PocketPC, all my information (tasks, calendar, contacts) is perfectly synchronized between the two devices.  I use the Palm VIIx now mainly for its wireless capabilities -- great in my area since CDPD service is not yet available.

Kevin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Mitchell 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 10:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Shadow vs. Bonsai


  On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:

  > I was just looking at Bonsai (http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm) and
  > noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers the option
  > to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan compares overall
  > to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
  > Timeframe?

        You know, I was expecting this any day now :) It appears Bonsai is
  the only real competitor of Shadow (though again, do they have a different
  goal than I?)

        Feature to feature, I think Shadow comes out on top, though as
  always I do not use my competitors tools, so I do not really know. I think
  Shadow ahs a slightly different target user, so your mileage may very,
  though I'm pretty sure Shadow is more buff overall. I don't wish to steal
  features or ideas (since they may not be what my users need or want, and
  they might just be dumb features to start with, and I do not wish to go
  the same direction as someone else.. I wish to go the direction my users
  need of me). I think Shadow itself is the best of the outliners. Desktop
  side, they obviously win at this time, since they have a conduit and
  desktop app (though last I used their desktop app, it was buggy.. but it
  does work well). My conduit is currently one-way only. I have translator
  tools in the works (to make it easy to get Shadow files to other apps and
  to print, etc), and a desktop app in the works (Shadow, but for the
  desktop). They will be coming out in stages .. since I can only work on
  one thing at a time. Export to DOC (and import) are coming very soon in
  the handheld. Also note that Shadow is much more poweful in the linking
  area.. I spend a lot of time making Shadow work well with other apps and
  allowing you to use Shadow to group other appos data into your projects
  (1.5 will be a fun release!)

        Service, I think I win hands down, though I would say that of
  larger companies, they have good service (ie: Go talk to Aportis and see
  bad service). But I host mailing lists and web forums, and answers those
  plus email very fast. Very few palm apps are updated as frequently as
  Shadow, and I doubt many have as personal a touch -- you want something,
  its likely you'll get it in Shadow if its a good idea.

        So, toe to toe, I think Shadow has more features and power on the
  palmside, and Bonsai has the desktop side. I think I have them beat on
  service and support, though they're pretty decent in that arena.

        I think I have more momentum.. I may be one person, but I work
  hard. They are a few people, but they have a half dozen things on the go.

        In the end, I don't wish to put them out of business. I think its
  good to have two good products in the market (plus progect.. though in the
  last month or two I've not heard much about it? Is it in trouble?). I
  think we're pretty equal these days, though I hope to have a desktop app
  and make my conduit two-way soon.

        I'm going at a different angle, too, though -- my desktop app and
  conduit are slower to develop, since they're on open standards, and my
  translator tools will let you take Shadow data into other already existing
  desktop apps. I think Bonsai is sticking with a more closed approach,
  since its easier to develop fopr and support.

              jeff

  --
  "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
  circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
  sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
  -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


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260

From: nowobble@y...
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 5:48pm
Subject: Item level display preferences

 
I was wondering if it's possible to do the following in Shadow:

I would like to be able to build a custom list where I could control 
the display preferences for EACH item -- let me give an example 
for illustrative purposes --

Let's say I manage a large account and want to keep most of my 
important information related to that account in ONE list. In the 
list I may have one item (parent and children) that simply give me 
org chart information - no need to display target dates, etc. 
Another item (parent and children) may be a task list for one of 
my program managers working a piece of the account project - 
in that case I WOULD want to be able to display target dates, 
links, etc. for that particular item, AND I would only see the 
displayed information when I expanded the item (I may actually 
see the progress bar before expanding, but it would be nice to 
be able to turn that feature off for the parent so there's nothing 
distracting in the right-hand margin).

I think it's a bit annoying to see all the information in the right 
hand column (plus it takes up precious screen space) when just 
a few of the items in your list are task/checklist - I guess what I'm 
saying is, it would be great to customize right down to the item 
level - enabling you to NOT open those items you KNOW will eat 
up screen space by displaying information in the right-hand 
column.

Hope this makes sense. I LOVE Shadow - I've been a very 
long-time user of Outliner/Brain Forest - I just happened to read 
the review in Pen Computing and I'm glad I did!

Bob
261

From: Rick Kier  <rick@T...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
Hi Jeff,

Sunday, March 04, 2001, 8:55:10 AM, you wrote:

sdyc> Message: 7
sdyc>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:37:45 -0500 (EST)
sdyc>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
sdyc> Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
sdyc> 
sdyc> 
sdyc>         I think memopad memos can *actually* be longer than 4k, but the
sdyc> memopad application can't deal with them. What happens when ListMaker
sdyc> exports them? If its only going from LM to Shadow, you might be able to
sdyc> doit. Then we just need to delete the memos withotu using memopad :)
sdyc> 
sdyc>                 jeff

It is possible to have memopad records that are greater than 4kb in
size.  The memopad app will display them ok.  The problem is that
they will be truncated to 4kb when a HotSync is done.  Believe the
memopad can not display a record greater that 32kb - something to do
with the field widget's maximum size.

We have an app (TS'Catalog) that exports data as memopad records. Just
created a memopad record with 13,105 bytes. The memopad app has no
problems displaying it. Unfortuantely, it won't edit the record. Just
used Wordsmith to edit the memo. Forced Wordsmith to save it as a
memo. The memopad app was able to see the changes without problems.

BTW, Wordsmith is available from www.bluenomad.com.  We use it as a
replacement for the memopad.

Hope this helps,

TeamSTARS
  Dick Gordon and Rick Kier
262

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: Item level display preferences

 
On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 nowobble@y... wrote:

> I was wondering if it's possible to do the following in Shadow:
> 
> I would like to be able to build a custom list where I could control 
> the display preferences for EACH item -- let me give an example 
> for illustrative purposes --

	This is coming; 1.4.0 couldn't do it at all, but the architecture
changes from 1.4 to 1.5 have built in the potential for what I called
"mixed views". As you know, you can create custom lists with whatever you
like in them. I'm planning on adding the ability to save the customized
views to a template file, and then allow you ot override an items
list-view-default with a template view. Thus you could define a few views
youlike, and then save them and then have a list which has most items of
one type,and a few overridden as you need.

	That ought to work well.

> Hope this makes sense. I LOVE Shadow - I've been a very 
> long-time user of Outliner/Brain Forest - I just happened to read 
> the review in Pen Computing and I'm glad I did!

	Thanks for trying it out :) And if you have any more ideas, let me
know :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
263

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping the memos
under the size limit, but its godo to know for export/import sake that
this will work (as long as you do it before a hotsync). I'm goign to build
export-as-doc soon anyway, too.

		jeff

On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Rick Kier wrote:

> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Sunday, March 04, 2001, 8:55:10 AM, you wrote:
> 
> sdyc> Message: 7
> sdyc>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:37:45 -0500 (EST)
> sdyc>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> sdyc> Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
> sdyc> 
> sdyc> 
> sdyc>         I think memopad memos can *actually* be longer than 4k, but the
> sdyc> memopad application can't deal with them. What happens when ListMaker
> sdyc> exports them? If its only going from LM to Shadow, you might be able to
> sdyc> doit. Then we just need to delete the memos withotu using memopad :)
> sdyc> 
> sdyc>                 jeff
> 
> It is possible to have memopad records that are greater than 4kb in
> size.  The memopad app will display them ok.  The problem is that
> they will be truncated to 4kb when a HotSync is done.  Believe the
> memopad can not display a record greater that 32kb - something to do
> with the field widget's maximum size.
> 
> We have an app (TS'Catalog) that exports data as memopad records. Just
> created a memopad record with 13,105 bytes. The memopad app has no
> problems displaying it. Unfortuantely, it won't edit the record. Just
> used Wordsmith to edit the memo. Forced Wordsmith to save it as a
> memo. The memopad app was able to see the changes without problems.
> 
> BTW, Wordsmith is available from www.bluenomad.com.  We use it as a
> replacement for the memopad.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> TeamSTARS
>   Dick Gordon and Rick Kier
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
264

From: Peter R. Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 3:53am
Subject: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
LapTopHack allows you to modify the clipboard limit.  I usually have it set
to 4K , so I don't overwhelm the Palm Memo database.

pedit32 allows memos of 32K.  peditPro accesses both the 4K Palm Memo data
base and pedit32's database.  Further it will let you export memo that is
greater than 4K to the Palm memo format as segmented memos

pedit, pedit32 and peditPro also import and export Palm DOC files.

all are available from www.palmgear.com

There is much lively discussion of pedit topics at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peditors
265

From: tommyb@i...
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 4:10am
Subject: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!

 
I think I see what you mean.  If you edited a task, switched away, 
switched back, and Shadow saved in the interim, you could no longer 
cancel the edited changes, right?

but... if there were a buffer to keep the unsaved changes, then you 
could switch back and forth to other apps to cut and paste - 
something that I would find more useful when creating notes than 
tasks, actually - and still cancel back to the original contents if 
necessary.

I suppose MultiClipHack could do this, if Shadow can't.

BTW, I know that many are finding the desktop conduit handy, but I 
for one would like development time more heavily slanted toward the 
handheld, and less toward the desktop.  In any case, I appreciate the 
attention that you give to ALL your users.

tommyb






--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 tommyb@i... wrote:
> 
> > create a new task. (or create a note)
> > 
> > before clicking OK, switch to another app or the launcher via 
either 
> > silk or hardware buttons.
> > 
> > return to Shadow.  Your task (or note) is not saved.
> 
> 	By design; few apps will maintain the fact that you were in 
that
> window and return to it. The question is whethor or not the details 
should
> be saved.
> 
> 	I intend to have a "Save before exitting?" alert for just 
such an
> occasion. Seems to be the best overall solution.
> 
> > Once you return to the task list, dirty files are saved when 
> > switching.  Don't you think that this behavior should stay 
> > consistent?  Is there a reason that you would want to lose a new 
task 
> > when switching?
> 
> 	New is one thing; editting an existing one is another... if 
you
> accidentally switch apps after making a bad change, it could be 
terrible
> to come back to a trashed item. An alert ought to make it moot.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
266

From: L Newman  <lnewman@n...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 10:07am
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
Jeff

Your licensing arrangement is also a plus.

Len
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Shadow vs. Bonsai


> On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Terry Kyte wrote:
>
> > I was just looking at Bonsai (http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm)
and
> > noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers the
option
> > to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan compares
overall
> > to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
> > Timeframe?
>
> You know, I was expecting this any day now :) It appears Bonsai is
> the only real competitor of Shadow (though again, do they have a different
> goal than I?)
>
> Feature to feature, I think Shadow comes out on top, though as
> always I do not use my competitors tools, so I do not really know. I think
> Shadow ahs a slightly different target user, so your mileage may very,
> though I'm pretty sure Shadow is more buff overall. I don't wish to steal
> features or ideas (since they may not be what my users need or want, and
> they might just be dumb features to start with, and I do not wish to go
> the same direction as someone else.. I wish to go the direction my users
> need of me). I think Shadow itself is the best of the outliners. Desktop
> side, they obviously win at this time, since they have a conduit and
> desktop app (though last I used their desktop app, it was buggy.. but it
> does work well). My conduit is currently one-way only. I have translator
> tools in the works (to make it easy to get Shadow files to other apps and
> to print, etc), and a desktop app in the works (Shadow, but for the
> desktop). They will be coming out in stages .. since I can only work on
> one thing at a time. Export to DOC (and import) are coming very soon in
> the handheld. Also note that Shadow is much more poweful in the linking
> area.. I spend a lot of time making Shadow work well with other apps and
> allowing you to use Shadow to group other appos data into your projects
> (1.5 will be a fun release!)
>
> Service, I think I win hands down, though I would say that of
> larger companies, they have good service (ie: Go talk to Aportis and see
> bad service). But I host mailing lists and web forums, and answers those
> plus email very fast. Very few palm apps are updated as frequently as
> Shadow, and I doubt many have as personal a touch -- you want something,
> its likely you'll get it in Shadow if its a good idea.
>
> So, toe to toe, I think Shadow has more features and power on the
> palmside, and Bonsai has the desktop side. I think I have them beat on
> service and support, though they're pretty decent in that arena.
>
> I think I have more momentum.. I may be one person, but I work
> hard. They are a few people, but they have a half dozen things on the go.
>
> In the end, I don't wish to put them out of business. I think its
> good to have two good products in the market (plus progect.. though in the
> last month or two I've not heard much about it? Is it in trouble?). I
> think we're pretty equal these days, though I hope to have a desktop app
> and make my conduit two-way soon.
>
> I'm going at a different angle, too, though -- my desktop app and
> conduit are slower to develop, since they're on open standards, and my
> translator tools will let you take Shadow data into other already existing
> desktop apps. I think Bonsai is sticking with a more closed approach,
> since its easier to develop fopr and support.
>
> jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
267

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 1:14pm
Subject: Re: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!

 
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 tommyb@i... wrote:

> I think I see what you mean.  If you edited a task, switched away, 
> switched back, and Shadow saved in the interim, you could no longer 
> cancel the edited changes, right?

	Right. Unless I do, as you say, buffer the interim data and
remember to come back into the details screen. I dislike storing interim
data.. theres a bit of it, and its a bit clumsy. I could do it, but few
apps do. Most people (I think) cancel or ok before hitting Home.. *shrug*
I'll have to meditate on it.

> BTW, I know that many are finding the desktop conduit handy, but I 
> for one would like development time more heavily slanted toward the 
> handheld, and less toward the desktop.  In any case, I appreciate the 
> attention that you give to ALL your users.

	1.5 will have many updates to the Palm-side as well as the backup
XML conduit and installer. It already includes global find, and we're
about to strat testing the ability to link to the address book and memos..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
268

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 1:32pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, L Newman wrote:

> Your licensing arrangement is also a plus.

	What do you mean? The "free updates for life" part? :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
269

From: siggi@i...
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 2:25pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
Hello!

I would like to contribute my experience on this topic. If you are 
comparing two products, you have to define your main use of it. 
Currently the status between the two products is (IMHO): if you are 
handling text on your PC, Bonsai could be useful, but that task can 
also be done with other apps. I prefer to focus on the feature on the 
Palm side and I think thad Shadow has no competition there. Arranger 
is obsolete (perhabs the lnking to Adress is still of some use, but 
Shadow will likely deal with that soon) and other products like 
Brainforest and Thoughmill only offer subset of features compared to 
Shadow. Progect was very interesting to begin with, but has no wind 
since Oct 2000. I also focus on Project Management and Task 
Managemnt, and therefor I'm concerned with linking. Shadow is also 
stronger there with more things in the pipes. 

On the service side, I think that if Jeff will keep up the good work, 
he will earn the same rep. as CESD, which is unmatched at the moment 
(Dbk4 is huge and complex for a Palm app).

Good work Jeff,

maz.
270

From: kencn@a...
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
Terry,

I agree with most of the comments that you've probably already read 
here.  Shadow is a better outlining tool for the task or project 
management oriented folks.  Features planned for the near future will 
only extend that lead. The one feature I liked most about Bonsai was 
the in-place editing and drag-and-drop manipulation of outline 
entries.  If you use outlining primarily as a writing tool, IMHO you 
may find that Bonsai, today anyway, provides a somewhat more elegant 
and effective user interface. But for me that wasn't enough to offset 
all the other great things Shadow does, not to mention Jeff's 
ambitious development and responsive support.

Ken

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Terry Kyte" <kyte@s...> wrote:
> I was just looking at Bonsai 
(http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm) and
> noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers 
the option
> to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan
compares 
overall
> to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
> Timefram
271

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow 
when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead, 
the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for. 
Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.

The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask 
me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is 
complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a 
desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.

It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type 
linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.

Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions 
and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.
272

From: Kevin  <kfosler@h...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 6:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and To Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and should be a basic feature of Shadow Plan.

Kevin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: bstryd@a... 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:53 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai


  I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow 
  when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead, 
  the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for. 
  Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.

  The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask 
  me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is 
  complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a 
  desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.

  It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type 
  linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.

  Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions 
  and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.


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273

From: Kevin  <kfosler@h...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
Oops, looks like I spoke too soon... I'll try out 4.10.

Kevin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Kevin 
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai


  I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and To Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and should be a basic feature of Shadow Plan.

  Kevin
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: bstryd@a... 
    To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:53 PM
    Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai


    I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow 
    when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead, 
    the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for. 
    Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.

    The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask 
    me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is 
    complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a 
    desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.

    It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type 
    linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.

    Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions 
    and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

          Click for Details 
         

    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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274

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Kevin wrote:

> I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and
> To Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and
> should be a basic feature of Shadow Plan.

	I agree. I'm going to try and squeeze it into the upcoming 1.5
release; or if I miss it, I'll put it out as 1.5.1 or something a week
later. I've just enhanced the heck out of Shadows linking system, so all
thats really left is the link to existing.

	The UI for that is tough..

	I'm debating a simple UI just to get this featyure in, and then
let folks hammer me with suggestions for improving it. My first cut might
be something like this..

	Tap on "Create item from..." in a menu. It pops open a window with
"Todo" and "Datebook" radio buttons, a listbox, and an "OK", "Cancel", and
"Picker" buttons. It starts by showing this weeks todos. Tap datebook to
change it to this weeks datebook items. Tap the Picker button to bring up
a date view picker where you can pick a week, and then it refreshes the
listbox with the todos/datebooks from that week.

	Pick an item, hit OK, and an item is created in the current list
based on that item. It is linked to the original.

	Simplistic interface, but it ought to be a good start.

	Comments?

	I'm going to start working on this very soon.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
275

From: Peter R. Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
In an earlier post, I recommended peditPro (or pedit32) for dealing with
text greater than 4K .  I did not overlook WordSmith.  I use WordSmith when
I need to dress up text for presentation.  It just would not occur to me to
use it for a task dealing solely with text.    Although WordSmith can made
to deal with memos, that is not its reason for being.  When you enter
WordSmith, you give up much of the Palm environment.  And even for memos it
adds overhead, if only for its internal tracking of a title that does not
appear in the memo.

Text maniputation (editing if you will) is the pedit family's reason for
being   and for text manipulation there is not a close rival on the Palm
platform. both peditPro and pedit are on PalmGears list of "essentials". 

LapTopHack's makes just about any program keyboard friendly.  It cannot do
anything about the 160x160 screen, but keyboarding can be just that.
Keyboarding does not have to be a combination of keyboard and stylus.

Both LapTopHack and the pedit family are by the same developer, Paul Nevai.
 Because he gives the same kind of attention to pedit and LapTopHack that
Jeff Mitchell gives to Shadow-Plan, they have become very robust in a very
sort time.

There is a very active support/discussion group for both pedit and
lapTopHack at: 

	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peditors

Two freeware desktop programs for extraction of Palm memos and pedit32
memos  are in advanced beta.  Both are being developed by members of
peditors.  

=====
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:39:58 -0500
From: Rick Kier <rick@T...>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

Hi Jeff,

Sunday, March 04, 2001, 8:55:10 AM, you wrote:

sdyc> Message: 7
sdyc>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:37:45 -0500 (EST)
sdyc>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
sdyc> Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
sdyc> 
sdyc> 
sdyc>         I think memopad memos can *actually* be longer than 4k, but the
sdyc> memopad application can't deal with them. What happens when ListMaker
sdyc> exports them? If its only going from LM to Shadow, you might be able to
sdyc> doit. Then we just need to delete the memos withotu using memopad :)
sdyc> 
sdyc>                 jeff

It is possible to have memopad records that are greater than 4kb in
size.  The memopad app will display them ok.  The problem is that
they will be truncated to 4kb when a HotSync is done.  Believe the
memopad can not display a record greater that 32kb - something to do
with the field widget's maximum size.

We have an app (TS'Catalog) that exports data as memopad records. Just
created a memopad record with 13,105 bytes. The memopad app has no
problems displaying it. Unfortuantely, it won't edit the record. Just
used Wordsmith to edit the memo. Forced Wordsmith to save it as a
memo. The memopad app was able to see the changes without problems.

BTW, Wordsmith is available from www.bluenomad.com.  We use it as a
replacement for the memopad.

Hope this helps,

TeamSTARS
  Dick Gordon and Rick Kier
276

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
> 	Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping
> the memos under the size limit, but its godo to know for
> export/import sake that this will work (as long as you do it
> before a hotsync). I'm goign to build export-as-doc soon anyway,
> too.

I've been doing some testing with transitions from ListMaker to 
Shadow and they've come along quite nicely, but also brought up some 
bottlenecks for which I have yet to find sufficient solutions or 
workarounds.

One problem is with lists that have texts containing newlines. These 
newlines are also exported to MemoPad, but when imported by Shadow, 
everything after the newline is interpreted as a new record in the 
list. So essentially, records are being cut into pieces at newline 
boundaries. I don't think that there is any way around this problem.

Another challenge is the different ways in which ListMaker and Shadow 
store/categorize lists. Shadow allows you to define a set of 
categories and assign lists to those categories. ListMaker adds 
a "database" level on top of that. Each database can have its own set 
of categories and lists, allowing for more structuring.

And then there are ListMaker's common lists which have no equivalent 
in Shadow. Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a 
repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for 
inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for 
the benefit of common lists.

Finally, Shadow's lists have titles whereas ListMaker's lists have 
none. In ListMaker, the top level item serves as a title. This also 
creates some discrepancies when importing ListMaker lists into Shadow 
because multiple lists end up in one Memo and are then imported into 
Shadow as one single list. So I have to do some handy work to slice 
up that list into separate entities.

All in all, I have my work cut out for me! :)

Roy.
277

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 0:23am
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

 
Dobbs, that sounds painfull. I'm sorry its so much work. Thanks
for pointiung out the issues. IF you have any tricks, others may benefit
so please post them :)

	If you can think of an easy way for me to help you, let me know.

		jeff

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > 	Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping
> > the memos under the size limit, but its godo to know for
> > export/import sake that this will work (as long as you do it
> > before a hotsync). I'm goign to build export-as-doc soon anyway,
> > too.
> 
> I've been doing some testing with transitions from ListMaker to 
> Shadow and they've come along quite nicely, but also brought up some 
> bottlenecks for which I have yet to find sufficient solutions or 
> workarounds.
> 
> One problem is with lists that have texts containing newlines. These 
> newlines are also exported to MemoPad, but when imported by Shadow, 
> everything after the newline is interpreted as a new record in the 
> list. So essentially, records are being cut into pieces at newline 
> boundaries. I don't think that there is any way around this problem.
> 
> Another challenge is the different ways in which ListMaker and Shadow 
> store/categorize lists. Shadow allows you to define a set of 
> categories and assign lists to those categories. ListMaker adds 
> a "database" level on top of that. Each database can have its own set 
> of categories and lists, allowing for more structuring.
> 
> And then there are ListMaker's common lists which have no equivalent 
> in Shadow. Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a 
> repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for 
> inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for 
> the benefit of common lists.
> 
> Finally, Shadow's lists have titles whereas ListMaker's lists have 
> none. In ListMaker, the top level item serves as a title. This also 
> creates some discrepancies when importing ListMaker lists into Shadow 
> because multiple lists end up in one Memo and are then imported into 
> Shadow as one single list. So I have to do some handy work to slice 
> up that list into separate entities.
> 
> All in all, I have my work cut out for me! :)
> 
> Roy.
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
278

From: verxion@p...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:15pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
The interface you describe seems extremely straightforward and workable.  I for one would like to see the feature implemented in whatever manner is fastest so we can begin using it.  To me, UI improvements can easily be made after the functionality is there.

Are you planning on doing datebook, todo, and addressbook links?  Or just the first two?  I think to fully replace arranger you will need all three.

Just my thoughts. . . 

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Kevin wrote:
> 
> > I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and
> > To Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and
> > should be a basic feature of Shadow Plan.
> 
> 	I agree. I'm going to try and squeeze it into the upcoming 1.5
> release; or if I miss it, I'll put it out as 1.5.1 or something a week
> later. I've just enhanced the heck out of Shadows linking system, so all
> thats really left is the link to existing.
> 
> 	The UI for that is tough..
> 
> 	I'm debating a simple UI just to get this featyure in, and then
> let folks hammer me with suggestions for improving it. My first cut might
> be something like this..
> 
> 	Tap on "Create item from..." in a menu. It pops open a window with
> "Todo" and "Datebook" radio buttons, a listbox, and an "OK", "Cancel", and
> "Picker" buttons. It starts by showing this weeks todos. Tap datebook to
> change it to this weeks datebook items. Tap the Picker button to bring up
> a date view picker where you can pick a week, and then it refreshes the
> listbox with the todos/datebooks from that week.
> 
> 	Pick an item, hit OK, and an item is created in the current list
> based on that item. It is linked to the original.
> 
> 	Simplistic interface, but it ought to be a good start.
> 
> 	Comments?
> 
> 	I'm going to start working on this very soon.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
279

From: verxion@p...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	So, toe to toe, I think Shadow has more features and power on the
> palmside, and Bonsai has the desktop side. I think I have them beat on
> service and support, though they're pretty decent in that arena.

I agree with this assessment.  For some, the desktop side is where it is at, and I think (just being honest), that natara will have a lead on the desktop side for a while.  I bought their daynotez program largely based upon the fact that they had a desktop app, but since I have a palm keyboard, I have found I almost never use their desktop app.  More on this aspect later.
 
> 	I think I have more momentum.. I may be one person, but I work
> hard. They are a few people, but they have a half dozen things on the go.

You definitely have more momentum.  I think so long as you have the kind of support and fervor you have exhibited thus far, your user base will surround you with support and well wishes.  Of the palm apps, I know of datebk, pedit, and shadow as the only ones where the development is so rapid (progect used to be this way, but has basically died).  Of those three, shadow and pedit are the only ones in which the developer themselves are readily accessable (cesd is around, but not nearly as much).

> 	In the end, I don't wish to put them out of business. I think its
> good to have two good products in the market (plus progect.. though in the
> last month or two I've not heard much about it? Is it in trouble?). I
> think we're pretty equal these days, though I hope to have a desktop app
> and make my conduit two-way soon.

It is a good thing to have multiple products on the market.  It is good for developers too, but that is often overlooked.  I applaud your openmindedness.

> 	I'm going at a different angle, too, though -- my desktop app and
> conduit are slower to develop, since they're on open standards, and my
> translator tools will let you take Shadow data into other already existing
> desktop apps. I think Bonsai is sticking with a more closed approach,
> since its easier to develop fopr and support.

I have been using Linux since 1991, and have been in close contact with the development community since that time.  There is nothing that irks me more than closed mindedness about things like data.  Your devotion to putting your data into XML is a decision that will not bear fruit for some time.  It is a decision that is a great deal more work in the short term.  It is a decision that (in this registered users opinion anyway) will win you the final battle.  It will put you out in front.  I forsee a day where shadow will have more conduit options than any other app for the palm.

Things are looking up.  :)

-Joe Chott
280

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> The interface you describe seems extremely straightforward and
> workable.  I for one would like to see the feature implemented in
> whatever manner is fastest so we can begin using it.  To me, UI
> improvements can easily be made after the functionality is there.

	Maybe. Giving out somethign bad to the public is bad, since it
reflects on you, and further, they have to get used changes later when you
fix it up. Its better to do it right first. Only Microsoft can get away
with crap first :P

> Are you planning on doing datebook, todo, and addressbook links?  Or
> just the first two?  I think to fully replace arranger you will need
> all three.

	Datebook and Todo links have always been there. Addressbook and
memo linkin are in 1.5. Creating "from" will be todo and datebook.. the
others can just be pure links on other items. though Icoudl add some sort
of "create from" if folks need it, for addresses. My goal is not to
replace Arranger.. my goal is to implement what folks need :)

		jeff

	In a rush again..

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
281

From: siggi@i...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 6:46pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
If it is possible without to much work to impliment "from" address 
and memo, it would be great. The only reason I keep my registered 
version of Arranger on my Visor is that it allows me to arrange my 
contacts and related issues (To Do and datebook entries). It is also 
nice to sort related topics from memo, like meeting minutes.

At the time, I found Arranger very good app (and it still is)but some 
of it's features have been implimented in other apps. The makers of 
Arranger hit the spot with linking, so the issue is not to copy or 
replace Arranger, rather to impliment features that are obviusly very 
popular :-)




Mz
282

From: verxion@p...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:29pm
Subject: Question about color schemes

 
I use Khroma to change my color scheme on my visor prism.  It seems that when I first bring up shadow, it honors my color scheme on the "list of lists" screen, but when I go into a list, I have a problem.  It looks like shadow overrides my color scheme for highlighting items.  It seems to force it into white on black (which is fine), except for notes, which are purple on black, which, quite frankly, is HORRIBLE for me to look at.  If there was even a way to change this inside of shadow, that would be fine, but I think it might be easiest to have it follow some setting in the OS level color scheme so I could change it in Khroma.  Or is there some way to change this that I just haven't found yet?

-Joe Chott
283

From: pig_duck1119@y...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for adding the import existing To-do. I like the idea to show 
this week to-do and datebook. It is a much better way doing it like 
BrianForest. 
However, if I have a lot TD or DB for this week. It would clutter up 
the screen very much. I would suggest if you can also allow user to 
select category. I think if you can first try to match the category 
that you are in within shadow with DB/TD. If you can find a exact 
match of category, show it first, else, show the category that user 
has selected the last time, otherwise, show the "All" category 
instead.

Any comments???

P.S. Also, when you show the TD for user to pick from, it may be a 
good idea to show at least the complete status of the TD. The reason 
is that user will be able to decide whether they are trying to import 
a complete item to the list or not.

Hope that will help,

Pig

> 	The UI for that is tough..
> 
> 	I'm debating a simple UI just to get this featyure in, and 
then
> let folks hammer me with suggestions for improving it. My first cut 
might
> be something like this..
> 
> 	Tap on "Create item from..." in a menu. It pops open a window 
with
> "Todo" and "Datebook" radio buttons, a listbox, and 
an "OK", "Cancel", and
> "Picker" buttons. It starts by showing this weeks todos. Tap 
datebook to
> change it to this weeks datebook items. Tap the Picker button to 
bring up
> a date view picker where you can pick a week, and then it refreshes 
the
> listbox with the todos/datebooks from that week.
> 
> 	Pick an item, hit OK, and an item is created in the current 
list
> based on that item. It is linked to the original.
> 
> 	Simplistic interface, but it ought to be a good start.
> 
> 	Comments?
> 
> 	I'm going to start working on this very soon.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
284

From: BYRON E ALLGOOD  <1POPOLO@P...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Listmaker

 
Quote:
"Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a
repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for
inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for
the benefit of common lists."

For this reason alone I continue to have listmaker on my palm.
Jeff, I know you have much on your plate, but have you ever thought of
adding this functionallity to Shadow? This powerful feature is also a way to
add freuently used words or even long phrases very quickly in project
management outlines. A sort of tags on steroids.

-----Original Message-----
From: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:58 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Digest Number 49


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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!
           From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
      2. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
      3. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: siggi@i...
      4. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: kencn@a...
      5. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: bstryd@a...
      6. Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
      7. Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
      8. Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
           From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
      9. Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
           From: "Peter R. Grierson" <peter.grierson@s...>
     10. Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
           From: "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...>
     11. Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
           From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:14:17 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 tommyb@i... wrote:

> I think I see what you mean.  If you edited a task, switched away,
> switched back, and Shadow saved in the interim, you could no longer
> cancel the edited changes, right?

	Right. Unless I do, as you say, buffer the interim data and
remember to come back into the details screen. I dislike storing interim
data.. theres a bit of it, and its a bit clumsy. I could do it, but few
apps do. Most people (I think) cancel or ok before hitting Home.. *shrug*
I'll have to meditate on it.

> BTW, I know that many are finding the desktop conduit handy, but I
> for one would like development time more heavily slanted toward the
> handheld, and less toward the desktop.  In any case, I appreciate the
> attention that you give to ALL your users.

	1.5 will have many updates to the Palm-side as well as the backup
XML conduit and installer. It already includes global find, and we're
about to strat testing the ability to link to the address book and memos..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:32:08 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, L Newman wrote:

> Your licensing arrangement is also a plus.

	What do you mean? The "free updates for life" part? :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:25:37 -0000
   From: siggi@i...
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

Hello!

I would like to contribute my experience on this topic. If you are
comparing two products, you have to define your main use of it.
Currently the status between the two products is (IMHO): if you are
handling text on your PC, Bonsai could be useful, but that task can
also be done with other apps. I prefer to focus on the feature on the
Palm side and I think thad Shadow has no competition there. Arranger
is obsolete (perhabs the lnking to Adress is still of some use, but
Shadow will likely deal with that soon) and other products like
Brainforest and Thoughmill only offer subset of features compared to
Shadow. Progect was very interesting to begin with, but has no wind
since Oct 2000. I also focus on Project Management and Task
Managemnt, and therefor I'm concerned with linking. Shadow is also
stronger there with more things in the pipes.

On the service side, I think that if Jeff will keep up the good work,
he will earn the same rep. as CESD, which is unmatched at the moment
(Dbk4 is huge and complex for a Palm app).

Good work Jeff,

maz.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:36:24 -0000
   From: kencn@a...
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

Terry,

I agree with most of the comments that you've probably already read
here.  Shadow is a better outlining tool for the task or project
management oriented folks.  Features planned for the near future will
only extend that lead. The one feature I liked most about Bonsai was
the in-place editing and drag-and-drop manipulation of outline
entries.  If you use outlining primarily as a writing tool, IMHO you
may find that Bonsai, today anyway, provides a somewhat more elegant
and effective user interface. But for me that wasn't enough to offset
all the other great things Shadow does, not to mention Jeff's
ambitious development and responsive support.

Ken

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Terry Kyte" <kyte@s...> wrote:
> I was just looking at Bonsai
(http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm) and
> noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers
the option
> to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan
compares
overall
> to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
> Timefram



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:53:54 -0000
   From: bstryd@a...
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow
when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead,
the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for.
Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.

The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask
me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is
complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a
desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.

It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type
linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.

Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions
and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:55:31 -0600
   From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and To Do
entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and should be a
basic feature of Shadow Plan.

Kevin
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: bstryd@a...
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:53 PM
  Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai


  I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow
  when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead,
  the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for.
  Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.

  The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask
  me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is
  complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a
  desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.

  It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type
  linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.

  Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions
  and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.


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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:57:01 -0600
   From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

Oops, looks like I spoke too soon... I'll try out 4.10.

Kevin
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Kevin
  To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai


  I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and To
Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and should be
a basic feature of Shadow Plan.

  Kevin
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: bstryd@a...
    To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:53 PM
    Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai


    I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow
    when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead,
    the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for.
    Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.

    The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask
    me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is
    complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a
    desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.

    It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type
    linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.

    Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions
    and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.


          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

          Click for Details


    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:43:58 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Kevin wrote:

> I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and
> To Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and
> should be a basic feature of Shadow Plan.

	I agree. I'm going to try and squeeze it into the upcoming 1.5
release; or if I miss it, I'll put it out as 1.5.1 or something a week
later. I've just enhanced the heck out of Shadows linking system, so all
thats really left is the link to existing.

	The UI for that is tough..

	I'm debating a simple UI just to get this featyure in, and then
let folks hammer me with suggestions for improving it. My first cut might
be something like this..

	Tap on "Create item from..." in a menu. It pops open a window with
"Todo" and "Datebook" radio buttons, a listbox, and an "OK", "Cancel", and
"Picker" buttons. It starts by showing this weeks todos. Tap datebook to
change it to this weeks datebook items. Tap the Picker button to bring up
a date view picker where you can pick a week, and then it refreshes the
listbox with the todos/datebooks from that week.

	Pick an item, hit OK, and an item is created in the current list
based on that item. It is linked to the original.

	Simplistic interface, but it ought to be a good start.

	Comments?

	I'm going to start working on this very soon.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:24:59 -0500
   From: "Peter R. Grierson" <peter.grierson@s...>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

In an earlier post, I recommended peditPro (or pedit32) for dealing with
text greater than 4K .  I did not overlook WordSmith.  I use WordSmith when
I need to dress up text for presentation.  It just would not occur to me to
use it for a task dealing solely with text.    Although WordSmith can made
to deal with memos, that is not its reason for being.  When you enter
WordSmith, you give up much of the Palm environment.  And even for memos it
adds overhead, if only for its internal tracking of a title that does not
appear in the memo.

Text maniputation (editing if you will) is the pedit family's reason for
being   and for text manipulation there is not a close rival on the Palm
platform. both peditPro and pedit are on PalmGears list of "essentials".

LapTopHack's makes just about any program keyboard friendly.  It cannot do
anything about the 160x160 screen, but keyboarding can be just that.
Keyboarding does not have to be a combination of keyboard and stylus.

Both LapTopHack and the pedit family are by the same developer, Paul Nevai.
 Because he gives the same kind of attention to pedit and LapTopHack that
Jeff Mitchell gives to Shadow-Plan, they have become very robust in a very
sort time.

There is a very active support/discussion group for both pedit and
lapTopHack at:

	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peditors

Two freeware desktop programs for extraction of Palm memos and pedit32
memos  are in advanced beta.  Both are being developed by members of
peditors.

=====
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:39:58 -0500
From: Rick Kier <rick@T...>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

Hi Jeff,

Sunday, March 04, 2001, 8:55:10 AM, you wrote:

sdyc> Message: 7
sdyc>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:37:45 -0500 (EST)
sdyc>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
sdyc> Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
sdyc>
sdyc>
sdyc>         I think memopad memos can *actually* be longer than 4k, but
the
sdyc> memopad application can't deal with them. What happens when ListMaker
sdyc> exports them? If its only going from LM to Shadow, you might be able
to
sdyc> doit. Then we just need to delete the memos withotu using memopad :)
sdyc>
sdyc>                 jeff

It is possible to have memopad records that are greater than 4kb in
size.  The memopad app will display them ok.  The problem is that
they will be truncated to 4kb when a HotSync is done.  Believe the
memopad can not display a record greater that 32kb - something to do
with the field widget's maximum size.

We have an app (TS'Catalog) that exports data as memopad records. Just
created a memopad record with 13,105 bytes. The memopad app has no
problems displaying it. Unfortuantely, it won't edit the record. Just
used Wordsmith to edit the memo. Forced Wordsmith to save it as a
memo. The memopad app was able to see the changes without problems.

BTW, Wordsmith is available from www.bluenomad.com.  We use it as a
replacement for the memopad.

Hope this helps,

TeamSTARS
  Dick Gordon and Rick Kier


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:43:28 -0000
   From: "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...>
Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker

> 	Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping
> the memos under the size limit, but its godo to know for
> export/import sake that this will work (as long as you do it
> before a hotsync). I'm goign to build export-as-doc soon anyway,
> too.

I've been doing some testing with transitions from ListMaker to
Shadow and they've come along quite nicely, but also brought up some
bottlenecks for which I have yet to find sufficient solutions or
workarounds.

One problem is with lists that have texts containing newlines. These
newlines are also exported to MemoPad, but when imported by Shadow,
everything after the newline is interpreted as a new record in the
list. So essentially, records are being cut into pieces at newline
boundaries. I don't think that there is any way around this problem.

Another challenge is the different ways in which ListMaker and Shadow
store/categorize lists. Shadow allows you to define a set of
categories and assign lists to those categories. ListMaker adds
a "database" level on top of that. Each database can have its own set
of categories and lists, allowing for more structuring.

And then there are ListMaker's common lists which have no equivalent
in Shadow. Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a
repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for
inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for
the benefit of common lists.

Finally, Shadow's lists have titles whereas ListMaker's lists have
none. In ListMaker, the top level item serves as a title. This also
creates some discrepancies when importing ListMaker lists into Shadow
because multiple lists end up in one Memo and are then imported into
Shadow as one single list. So I have to do some handy work to slice
up that list into separate entities.

All in all, I have my work cut out for me! :)

Roy.




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
   Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:23:08 -0500 (EST)
   From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker


	Dobbs, that sounds painfull. I'm sorry its so much work. Thanks
for pointiung out the issues. IF you have any tricks, others may benefit
so please post them :)

	If you can think of an easy way for me to help you, let me know.

		jeff

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > 	Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping
> > the memos under the size limit, but its godo to know for
> > export/import sake that this will work (as long as you do it
> > before a hotsync). I'm goign to build export-as-doc soon anyway,
> > too.
>
> I've been doing some testing with transitions from ListMaker to
> Shadow and they've come along quite nicely, but also brought up some
> bottlenecks for which I have yet to find sufficient solutions or
> workarounds.
>
> One problem is with lists that have texts containing newlines. These
> newlines are also exported to MemoPad, but when imported by Shadow,
> everything after the newline is interpreted as a new record in the
> list. So essentially, records are being cut into pieces at newline
> boundaries. I don't think that there is any way around this problem.
>
> Another challenge is the different ways in which ListMaker and Shadow
> store/categorize lists. Shadow allows you to define a set of
> categories and assign lists to those categories. ListMaker adds
> a "database" level on top of that. Each database can have its own set
> of categories and lists, allowing for more structuring.
>
> And then there are ListMaker's common lists which have no equivalent
> in Shadow. Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a
> repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for
> inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for
> the benefit of common lists.
>
> Finally, Shadow's lists have titles whereas ListMaker's lists have
> none. In ListMaker, the top level item serves as a title. This also
> creates some discrepancies when importing ListMaker lists into Shadow
> because multiple lists end up in one Memo and are then imported into
> Shadow as one single list. So I have to do some handy work to slice
> up that list into separate entities.
>
> All in all, I have my work cut out for me! :)
>
> Roy.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
285

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 8:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 siggi@i... wrote:

> If it is possible without to much work to impliment "from" address 
> and memo, it would be great. The only reason I keep my registered 
> version of Arranger on my Visor is that it allows me to arrange my 
> contacts and related issues (To Do and datebook entries). It is also 
> nice to sort related topics from memo, like meeting minutes.

	The 1.5 release (coming soon) allows you to link to memos and
address book items (in addition to the usual todos and datebook items). So
you can have a project or task with lists of who attended attached, or
meeting notes from an agenda or memo program.

> At the time, I found Arranger very good app (and it still is)but some 
> of it's features have been implimented in other apps. The makers of 
> Arranger hit the spot with linking, so the issue is not to copy or 
> replace Arranger, rather to impliment features that are obviusly very 
> popular :-)

	Arranger really is a very good set of ideas. Shadows UI needs some
redesign, but overall it works quite well. But Arranger was really nifty
.. for arranging data form other software. It just wasn't good at managing
content itself, which is what I've been trying to do with Shadow.

	I gotta admit.. Arranger really was/is a neat piece of work. Its
just obsolete. It didn't have to be :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
286

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Question about color schemes

 
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I use Khroma to change my color scheme on my visor prism.  It seems
> that when I first bring up shadow, it honors my color scheme on the
> "list of lists" screen, but when I go into a list, I have a problem.  
> It looks like shadow overrides my color scheme for highlighting items.  
> It seems to force it into white on black (which is fine), except for
> notes, which are purple on black, which, quite frankly, is HORRIBLE
> for me to look at.  If there was even a way to change this inside of
> shadow, that would be fine, but I think it might be easiest to have it
> follow some setting in the OS level color scheme so I could change it
> in Khroma.  Or is there some way to change this that I just haven't
> found yet?

	Interesting; I was planning on allowin gyou to customize many of
the colour schemes, but I've not yet bothered. I used to use palmTheme,
but it was unstable on my 3c, and slow, so I tossed it.

	To be most compatible with hacks and various OS/hardware
combinations, I've stayed out of the colour mix except for icons.. I
really just use InverseVideo for selected items (notes or otherwise). So I
would assume that notes shuold act the same as title text.. they're drawn
with the same code. A difference is strange.

	Got any screenshots I could see? :)

	I could put work into colour schemes, but for now its probably
best if I keep working on some needed feature refinements..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
287

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 pig_duck1119@y... wrote:

> Thanks for adding the import existing To-do. I like the idea to show 
> this week to-do and datebook. It is a much better way doing it like 
> BrianForest. 

	Its a need feature.. I've just had so much on my plate that I've
not been able to do it yet.. but I really want to get it in soon :)

> However, if I have a lot TD or DB for this week. It would clutter up 
> the screen very much. I would suggest if you can also allow user to 
> select category. I think if you can first try to match the category 
> that you are in within shadow with DB/TD. If you can find a exact 
> match of category, show it first, else, show the category that user 
> has selected the last time, otherwise, show the "All" category 
> instead.

	I'm not sure how smart I'll make category logic yet; I think I'll
get all the features in for 1.5, then do the testing, then do a beta test
so we can make sure its good and stable. Then release it. Then maybe add
categories to all sorts of parts of Shadow, and release that as 1.5.5 or
something. Category support needs to be added to lots of pieces, but I
dont' think I have time just yet to do it, and I do wish to get 1.5 into
everyones hands :)

> P.S. Also, when you show the TD for user to pick from, it may be a 
> good idea to show at least the complete status of the TD. The reason 
> is that user will be able to decide whether they are trying to import 
> a complete item to the list or not.

	Good point; If I forget this, bring it up when you see it so I can
add it in :)

		jeff

> 
> Hope that will help,
> 
> Pig
> 
> > 	The UI for that is tough..
> > 
> > 	I'm debating a simple UI just to get this featyure in, and 
> then
> > let folks hammer me with suggestions for improving it. My first cut 
> might
> > be something like this..
> > 
> > 	Tap on "Create item from..." in a menu. It pops open a window 
> with
> > "Todo" and "Datebook" radio buttons, a listbox, and 
> an "OK", "Cancel", and
> > "Picker" buttons. It starts by showing this weeks todos. Tap 
> datebook to
> > change it to this weeks datebook items. Tap the Picker button to 
> bring up
> > a date view picker where you can pick a week, and then it refreshes 
> the
> > listbox with the todos/datebooks from that week.
> > 
> > 	Pick an item, hit OK, and an item is created in the current 
> list
> > based on that item. It is linked to the original.
> > 
> > 	Simplistic interface, but it ought to be a good start.
> > 
> > 	Comments?
> > 
> > 	I'm going to start working on this very soon.
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
> micro
> > circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
> is?"
> > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
288

From: verxion@p...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 9:12pm
Subject: Re: Question about color schemes

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Interesting; I was planning on allowin gyou to customize many of
> the colour schemes, but I've not yet bothered. I used to use palmTheme,
> but it was unstable on my 3c, and slow, so I tossed it.

I haven't noticed ANY performance impact at all with Khroma, plus it is freeware.  Quite a nice combination.  :)  Also, the user interface is REALLY good (read: more intuitive) compared to the other tools I have tried.

> 	To be most compatible with hacks and various OS/hardware
> combinations, I've stayed out of the colour mix except for icons.. I
> really just use InverseVideo for selected items (notes or otherwise). So I
> would assume that notes shuold act the same as title text.. they're drawn
> with the same code. A difference is strange.

I think perhaps I wasn't clear.  I apologize for my lack of proper terminology, I will try to make up for it in a step by step explanation.

If I am in shadowplan at the HIGHEST level, where it shows the list of lists, highlighting a single list highlights in the colors I would expect - namely the very same colors as in memopad when I hilight.

Next, if I open a list, I get a list of the items in the list.  Every other item in this list has an alternating color background (configurable I know, just telling you so you know how I am configured).  To my somewhat poor eyes, it looks like the body text of each item is black, whilest the check circles and priority are a slightly lighter black (a gray of some level).  I could be wrong, but that is what it appears to be.  Now, if I select a single item in this particular list, this is what I see, as best I can describe:

On the white backgrounded lines, when selected, I see a purple dash, or a brown number (depending on what is there for the priority).  The check-circle is in purple, the text for the item is white, if there is a note icon, it is purple.  The background of the entire line is black.  The progress meter is in shades of gray, and the link dash on the far right is purple.  If I expand the note right on the list view, the text of the note is in purple until I unselect the list item.

On the light blue backgrounded lines, when selected, I see the same as above, with the following exceptions:  The priority dash is green, the check-circle is a light blue, the note icon or resulting text from expanding the note on the list view is a lighter purple, the progress meter is in gray with a purple outline, and the link dash is in purple.

If I open an item, and then go into an item and tap on the "note" button, it shows the text and highlight as I would expect - the same color scheme as in memopad.

> 	Got any screenshots I could see? :)

I will send you some if you still need them after reading this email.

> 	I could put work into colour schemes, but for now its probably
> best if I keep working on some needed feature refinements..
> 
> 		jeff

I don't think you need to work on color schemes personally.  To be perfectly honest, with programs like Khroma out there for free, I would think color would be best left to the "OS".  What I do think applications programmers need to do is make sure that every color they use comes from the configurable color pool that Khroma and its kin use.

-Joe Chott
289

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 9:25pm
Subject: Re: Listmaker

 
Copy and paste? ;)

	I will eventually add split-screen so you can have two lists
open.. but it wont' be for awhile yet. I might add "copy from", where it
lists off top level items in a list, so you can copy it and
children. *shrug*. I've not thought about that much..

		jeff

On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, BYRON E ALLGOOD wrote:

> Quote:
> "Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a
> repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for
> inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for
> the benefit of common lists."
> 
> For this reason alone I continue to have listmaker on my palm.
> Jeff, I know you have much on your plate, but have you ever thought of
> adding this functionallity to Shadow? This powerful feature is also a way to
> add freuently used words or even long phrases very quickly in project
> management outlines. A sort of tags on steroids.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:58 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Digest Number 49
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> There are 11 messages in this issue.
> 
> Topics in this digest:
> 
>       1. Re: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!
>            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
>       2. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
>       3. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: siggi@i...
>       4. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: kencn@a...
>       5. Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: bstryd@a...
>       6. Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
>       7. Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
>       8. Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
>            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
>       9. Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
>            From: "Peter R. Grierson" <peter.grierson@s...>
>      10. Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
>            From: "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...>
>      11. Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
>            From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 1
>    Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:14:17 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Subject: Re: Re: if not a bug, then a bug-me!
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 tommyb@i... wrote:
> 
> > I think I see what you mean.  If you edited a task, switched away,
> > switched back, and Shadow saved in the interim, you could no longer
> > cancel the edited changes, right?
> 
> 	Right. Unless I do, as you say, buffer the interim data and
> remember to come back into the details screen. I dislike storing interim
> data.. theres a bit of it, and its a bit clumsy. I could do it, but few
> apps do. Most people (I think) cancel or ok before hitting Home.. *shrug*
> I'll have to meditate on it.
> 
> > BTW, I know that many are finding the desktop conduit handy, but I
> > for one would like development time more heavily slanted toward the
> > handheld, and less toward the desktop.  In any case, I appreciate the
> > attention that you give to ALL your users.
> 
> 	1.5 will have many updates to the Palm-side as well as the backup
> XML conduit and installer. It already includes global find, and we're
> about to strat testing the ability to link to the address book and memos..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 2
>    Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:32:08 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, L Newman wrote:
> 
> > Your licensing arrangement is also a plus.
> 
> 	What do you mean? The "free updates for life" part? :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:25:37 -0000
>    From: siggi@i...
> Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> Hello!
> 
> I would like to contribute my experience on this topic. If you are
> comparing two products, you have to define your main use of it.
> Currently the status between the two products is (IMHO): if you are
> handling text on your PC, Bonsai could be useful, but that task can
> also be done with other apps. I prefer to focus on the feature on the
> Palm side and I think thad Shadow has no competition there. Arranger
> is obsolete (perhabs the lnking to Adress is still of some use, but
> Shadow will likely deal with that soon) and other products like
> Brainforest and Thoughmill only offer subset of features compared to
> Shadow. Progect was very interesting to begin with, but has no wind
> since Oct 2000. I also focus on Project Management and Task
> Managemnt, and therefor I'm concerned with linking. Shadow is also
> stronger there with more things in the pipes.
> 
> On the service side, I think that if Jeff will keep up the good work,
> he will earn the same rep. as CESD, which is unmatched at the moment
> (Dbk4 is huge and complex for a Palm app).
> 
> Good work Jeff,
> 
> maz.
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 4
>    Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:36:24 -0000
>    From: kencn@a...
> Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> Terry,
> 
> I agree with most of the comments that you've probably already read
> here.  Shadow is a better outlining tool for the task or project
> management oriented folks.  Features planned for the near future will
> only extend that lead. The one feature I liked most about Bonsai was
> the in-place editing and drag-and-drop manipulation of outline
> entries.  If you use outlining primarily as a writing tool, IMHO you
> may find that Bonsai, today anyway, provides a somewhat more elegant
> and effective user interface. But for me that wasn't enough to offset
> all the other great things Shadow does, not to mention Jeff's
> ambitious development and responsive support.
> 
> Ken
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Terry Kyte" <kyte@s...> wrote:
> > I was just looking at Bonsai
> (http://www.natara.com/Bonsai/Index.cfm) and
> > noticed it has a Windows Desktop and conduit.  As well, it offers
> the option
> > to export to doc format.  Jeff, how do you feel Shadow Plan
> compares
> overall
> > to Bonsai?  Or will compare once a desktop & conduit is available?
> > Timefram
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 5
>    Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:53:54 -0000
>    From: bstryd@a...
> Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow
> when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead,
> the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for.
> Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.
> 
> The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask
> me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is
> complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a
> desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.
> 
> It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type
> linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.
> 
> Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions
> and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:55:31 -0600
>    From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and To Do
> entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and should be a
> basic feature of Shadow Plan.
> 
> Kevin
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: bstryd@a...
>   To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:53 PM
>   Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> 
>   I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow
>   when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead,
>   the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for.
>   Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.
> 
>   The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask
>   me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is
>   complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a
>   desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.
> 
>   It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type
>   linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.
> 
>   Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions
>   and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
>         Click for Details
> 
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 7
>    Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:57:01 -0600
>    From: "Kevin" <kfosler@h...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> Oops, looks like I spoke too soon... I'll try out 4.10.
> 
> Kevin
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Kevin
>   To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:55 PM
>   Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> 
>   I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and To
> Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and should be
> a basic feature of Shadow Plan.
> 
>   Kevin
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: bstryd@a...
>     To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:53 PM
>     Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> 
>     I have to echo the other comments. I evaluated both Bonsai and Shadow
>     when Arranger quit advancing. Actually, even though it seems dead,
>     the linking stuff was excellent. That's the thing I'm looking for.
>     Bonsia was behind on linking and the plans Jeff has are excellent.
> 
>     The suggestions being made sometimes get a little "tweaky" if you ask
>     me, but each to his own I guess. I will be glad when linking is
>     complete, when (and if) back linking can be established, and when a
>     desktop version works well enough to enter data and maintian links.
> 
>     It's too much to hope for on a Palm platform to get a "matrix" type
>     linking and views like ECCO PRO had -- but that's my Holy Grail.
> 
>     Great work Jeff -- thanks for being generous with all our suggestions
>     and knowing what you need to do first to improve Shadow.
> 
> 
>           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
>           Click for Details
> 
> 
>     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
>         Click here for Classmates.com
> 
> 
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 8
>    Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:43:58 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Kevin wrote:
> 
> > I would like to see linking from Shadow Plan to existing Datebook and
> > To Do entries.  This feature has been a loooooong time in coming and
> > should be a basic feature of Shadow Plan.
> 
> 	I agree. I'm going to try and squeeze it into the upcoming 1.5
> release; or if I miss it, I'll put it out as 1.5.1 or something a week
> later. I've just enhanced the heck out of Shadows linking system, so all
> thats really left is the link to existing.
> 
> 	The UI for that is tough..
> 
> 	I'm debating a simple UI just to get this featyure in, and then
> let folks hammer me with suggestions for improving it. My first cut might
> be something like this..
> 
> 	Tap on "Create item from..." in a menu. It pops open a window with
> "Todo" and "Datebook" radio buttons, a listbox, and an "OK", "Cancel", and
> "Picker" buttons. It starts by showing this weeks todos. Tap datebook to
> change it to this weeks datebook items. Tap the Picker button to bring up
> a date view picker where you can pick a week, and then it refreshes the
> listbox with the todos/datebooks from that week.
> 
> 	Pick an item, hit OK, and an item is created in the current list
> based on that item. It is linked to the original.
> 
> 	Simplistic interface, but it ought to be a good start.
> 
> 	Comments?
> 
> 	I'm going to start working on this very soon.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 9
>    Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:24:59 -0500
>    From: "Peter R. Grierson" <peter.grierson@s...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
> 
> In an earlier post, I recommended peditPro (or pedit32) for dealing with
> text greater than 4K .  I did not overlook WordSmith.  I use WordSmith when
> I need to dress up text for presentation.  It just would not occur to me to
> use it for a task dealing solely with text.    Although WordSmith can made
> to deal with memos, that is not its reason for being.  When you enter
> WordSmith, you give up much of the Palm environment.  And even for memos it
> adds overhead, if only for its internal tracking of a title that does not
> appear in the memo.
> 
> Text maniputation (editing if you will) is the pedit family's reason for
> being   and for text manipulation there is not a close rival on the Palm
> platform. both peditPro and pedit are on PalmGears list of "essentials".
> 
> LapTopHack's makes just about any program keyboard friendly.  It cannot do
> anything about the 160x160 screen, but keyboarding can be just that.
> Keyboarding does not have to be a combination of keyboard and stylus.
> 
> Both LapTopHack and the pedit family are by the same developer, Paul Nevai.
>  Because he gives the same kind of attention to pedit and LapTopHack that
> Jeff Mitchell gives to Shadow-Plan, they have become very robust in a very
> sort time.
> 
> There is a very active support/discussion group for both pedit and
> lapTopHack at:
> 
> 	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peditors
> 
> Two freeware desktop programs for extraction of Palm memos and pedit32
> memos  are in advanced beta.  Both are being developed by members of
> peditors.
> 
> =====
> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:39:58 -0500
> From: Rick Kier <rick@T...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Sunday, March 04, 2001, 8:55:10 AM, you wrote:
> 
> sdyc> Message: 7
> sdyc>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:37:45 -0500 (EST)
> sdyc>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> sdyc> Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
> sdyc>
> sdyc>
> sdyc>         I think memopad memos can *actually* be longer than 4k, but
> the
> sdyc> memopad application can't deal with them. What happens when ListMaker
> sdyc> exports them? If its only going from LM to Shadow, you might be able
> to
> sdyc> doit. Then we just need to delete the memos withotu using memopad :)
> sdyc>
> sdyc>                 jeff
> 
> It is possible to have memopad records that are greater than 4kb in
> size.  The memopad app will display them ok.  The problem is that
> they will be truncated to 4kb when a HotSync is done.  Believe the
> memopad can not display a record greater that 32kb - something to do
> with the field widget's maximum size.
> 
> We have an app (TS'Catalog) that exports data as memopad records. Just
> created a memopad record with 13,105 bytes. The memopad app has no
> problems displaying it. Unfortuantely, it won't edit the record. Just
> used Wordsmith to edit the memo. Forced Wordsmith to save it as a
> memo. The memopad app was able to see the changes without problems.
> 
> BTW, Wordsmith is available from www.bluenomad.com.  We use it as a
> replacement for the memopad.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> TeamSTARS
>   Dick Gordon and Rick Kier
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 10
>    Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:43:28 -0000
>    From: "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw98@y...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
> 
> > 	Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping
> > the memos under the size limit, but its godo to know for
> > export/import sake that this will work (as long as you do it
> > before a hotsync). I'm goign to build export-as-doc soon anyway,
> > too.
> 
> I've been doing some testing with transitions from ListMaker to
> Shadow and they've come along quite nicely, but also brought up some
> bottlenecks for which I have yet to find sufficient solutions or
> workarounds.
> 
> One problem is with lists that have texts containing newlines. These
> newlines are also exported to MemoPad, but when imported by Shadow,
> everything after the newline is interpreted as a new record in the
> list. So essentially, records are being cut into pieces at newline
> boundaries. I don't think that there is any way around this problem.
> 
> Another challenge is the different ways in which ListMaker and Shadow
> store/categorize lists. Shadow allows you to define a set of
> categories and assign lists to those categories. ListMaker adds
> a "database" level on top of that. Each database can have its own set
> of categories and lists, allowing for more structuring.
> 
> And then there are ListMaker's common lists which have no equivalent
> in Shadow. Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a
> repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for
> inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for
> the benefit of common lists.
> 
> Finally, Shadow's lists have titles whereas ListMaker's lists have
> none. In ListMaker, the top level item serves as a title. This also
> creates some discrepancies when importing ListMaker lists into Shadow
> because multiple lists end up in one Memo and are then imported into
> Shadow as one single list. So I have to do some handy work to slice
> up that list into separate entities.
> 
> All in all, I have my work cut out for me! :)
> 
> Roy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 11
>    Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:23:08 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transition from ListMaker
> 
> 
> 	Dobbs, that sounds painfull. I'm sorry its so much work. Thanks
> for pointiung out the issues. IF you have any tricks, others may benefit
> so please post them :)
> 
> 	If you can think of an easy way for me to help you, let me know.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> 
> > > 	Cool, good news. Shadow is pretty careful about keeping
> > > the memos under the size limit, but its godo to know for
> > > export/import sake that this will work (as long as you do it
> > > before a hotsync). I'm goign to build export-as-doc soon anyway,
> > > too.
> >
> > I've been doing some testing with transitions from ListMaker to
> > Shadow and they've come along quite nicely, but also brought up some
> > bottlenecks for which I have yet to find sufficient solutions or
> > workarounds.
> >
> > One problem is with lists that have texts containing newlines. These
> > newlines are also exported to MemoPad, but when imported by Shadow,
> > everything after the newline is interpreted as a new record in the
> > list. So essentially, records are being cut into pieces at newline
> > boundaries. I don't think that there is any way around this problem.
> >
> > Another challenge is the different ways in which ListMaker and Shadow
> > store/categorize lists. Shadow allows you to define a set of
> > categories and assign lists to those categories. ListMaker adds
> > a "database" level on top of that. Each database can have its own set
> > of categories and lists, allowing for more structuring.
> >
> > And then there are ListMaker's common lists which have no equivalent
> > in Shadow. Common lists are like normal lists, but really serve as a
> > repository for commonly used items which can be quickly selected for
> > inclusion in the main list. Shopping lists are a typical example for
> > the benefit of common lists.
> >
> > Finally, Shadow's lists have titles whereas ListMaker's lists have
> > none. In ListMaker, the top level item serves as a title. This also
> > creates some discrepancies when importing ListMaker lists into Shadow
> > because multiple lists end up in one Memo and are then imported into
> > Shadow as one single list. So I have to do some handy work to slice
> > up that list into separate entities.
> >
> > All in all, I have my work cut out for me! :)
> >
> > Roy.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
290

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Question about color schemes

 
Ahh, fair enough.

	The colour distortion you see is likely due to the painting mode
that I use to paint the images onto the display. Many of the shadow icons
are this colour or that, and when they paint against certain other
colours, the OS "mixes" them. It works perfectly for me needs, but if you
start to play with the OS settings, via Kroma, maybe thats whats causing
it go wacky.

	I do it the way I do because it is most compatible with the many
OS versions; mixing colour with an app that nearly run on OS2.0 makes it
rough, so I have opted to stay out of certain newer features that I'd like
to use, since they'd hurt older platforms. Eventually maybe I won't have
to worry, or maybe I'll add code to support specific newer versions of the
OS better than the old ones.. but normally I try and make everything work
with every combination.

		jeff

On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 	Interesting; I was planning on allowin gyou to customize many of
> > the colour schemes, but I've not yet bothered. I used to use palmTheme,
> > but it was unstable on my 3c, and slow, so I tossed it.
> 
> I haven't noticed ANY performance impact at all with Khroma, plus it is freeware.  Quite a nice combination.  :)  Also, the user interface is REALLY good (read: more intuitive) compared to the other tools I have tried.
> 
> > 	To be most compatible with hacks and various OS/hardware
> > combinations, I've stayed out of the colour mix except for icons.. I
> > really just use InverseVideo for selected items (notes or otherwise). So I
> > would assume that notes shuold act the same as title text.. they're drawn
> > with the same code. A difference is strange.
> 
> I think perhaps I wasn't clear.  I apologize for my lack of proper terminology, I will try to make up for it in a step by step explanation.
> 
> If I am in shadowplan at the HIGHEST level, where it shows the list of lists, highlighting a single list highlights in the colors I would expect - namely the very same colors as in memopad when I hilight.
> 
> Next, if I open a list, I get a list of the items in the list.  Every other item in this list has an alternating color background (configurable I know, just telling you so you know how I am configured).  To my somewhat poor eyes, it looks like the body text of each item is black, whilest the check circles and priority are a slightly lighter black (a gray of some level).  I could be wrong, but that is what it appears to be.  Now, if I select a single item in this particular list, this is what I see, as best I can describe:
> 
> On the white backgrounded lines, when selected, I see a purple dash, or a brown number (depending on what is there for the priority).  The check-circle is in purple, the text for the item is white, if there is a note icon, it is purple.  The background of the entire line is black.  The progress meter is in shades of gray, and the link dash on the far right is purple.  If I expand the note right on the list view, the text of the note is in purple until I unselect the list item.
> 
> On the light blue backgrounded lines, when selected, I see the same as above, with the following exceptions:  The priority dash is green, the check-circle is a light blue, the note icon or resulting text from expanding the note on the list view is a lighter purple, the progress meter is in gray with a purple outline, and the link dash is in purple.
> 
> If I open an item, and then go into an item and tap on the "note" button, it shows the text and highlight as I would expect - the same color scheme as in memopad.
> 
> > 	Got any screenshots I could see? :)
> 
> I will send you some if you still need them after reading this email.
> 
> > 	I could put work into colour schemes, but for now its probably
> > best if I keep working on some needed feature refinements..
> > 
> > 		jeff
> 
> I don't think you need to work on color schemes personally.  To be perfectly honest, with programs like Khroma out there for free, I would think color would be best left to the "OS".  What I do think applications programmers need to do is make sure that every color they use comes from the configurable color pool that Khroma and its kin use.
> 
> -Joe Chott
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
291

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw98@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: Shadow vs. Bonsai

 
> Only Microsoft can get away with crap first :P

What do you mean, "first"? :D

Roy.
292

From: verxion@p...
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:54pm
Subject: Question about linking for Jeff

 
I am really starting to try various linking aspects on the Palm as 
part of a new "get organized" thing I am doing.  :)

I use datebk4d, and I am trying to do some linking in shadow to 
dates.  I notice that you gave target, start, and finish dates all 
listed in details for items in lists.  However, it appears that the 
only date actually used for linking is the "target" date.  I would 
like to be able to setup a target date, a start date, then choose 
link, and have a floating to do in datebk4d appears on the start date 
and "ends" on the target date.  Is there any way to do this?

If I can't do that, I may try creating the appointments in datebk4d 
and then linking to them in shadow.  I just want to know what my 
options are.

-Joe Chott
293

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:30am
Subject: Re: Question about linking for Jeff

 
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I use datebk4d, and I am trying to do some linking in shadow to 
> dates.  I notice that you gave target, start, and finish dates all 
> listed in details for items in lists.  However, it appears that the 
> only date actually used for linking is the "target" date.  I would 
> like to be able to setup a target date, a start date, then choose 
> link, and have a floating to do in datebk4d appears on the start date 
> and "ends" on the target date.  Is there any way to do this?

	I always envisioned people would use the target date as the real
item in datebk, with an alarm really far ahead. I could add finish and/or
start dates to the datebook and todo as well, but it seems a bit much. I
forget if floating dates will work with linking.. I think Datebk4 deletes
the floating item, and creates it later, to do floats. Deleting an item
breaks the link, even if it gets recreates (as a wholly new, but
identical) item.

> If I can't do that, I may try creating the appointments in datebk4d 
> and then linking to them in shadow.  I just want to know what my 
> options are.

	Shadow 1.5 will be able to create shadow items based on existing
datebook and todo items. Right now you typically create items in Shadow,
and link them out. In 1.5, you'll be able to enter shadow and say "wait, I
created it somewhere else, let me add it to my shadow list".

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
294

From: Kevin  <kfosler@h...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 3:44am
Subject: Re: Question about linking for Jeff

 
This is what I'm interested in:
        Shadow 1.5 will be able to create shadow items based on existing
  datebook and todo items. Right now you typically create items in Shadow,
  and link them out. In 1.5, you'll be able to enter shadow and say "wait, I
  created it somewhere else, let me add it to my shadow list".

              jeff



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
295

From: verxion@p...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Question about linking for Jeff

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	I always envisioned people would use the target date as the 
real
> item in datebk, with an alarm really far ahead. I could add finish 
and/or
> start dates to the datebook and todo as well, but it seems a bit 
much. I
> forget if floating dates will work with linking.. I think Datebk4 
deletes
> the floating item, and creates it later, to do floats. Deleting an 
item
> breaks the link, even if it gets recreates (as a wholly new, but
> identical) item.

Well, I can see this being something different users will want 
different ways, I certainly understand what I am asking for is not 
what everyone would want.  Here is my scenario - I want to be able to 
setup my long term and short term projects, with project tracking in 
shadow.  I would like to be able to say that I need to finish 
project_A by May 1st.  What I really NEED though, to keep focused, is 
a todo item that -*STAYS*- at the top of my todo list in datebk4d 
until I check it off, hopefully well ahead of May 1st.  If I 
configure datebk4d to show only those todo items with priorities 
higher than 5, then I can choose at the beginning of each week which 
of my todo items to make visible so I will work on my priority 
items.  Therefore, I would like the todo items I create in shadow to 
default to a priority of 5.  So if I set a target date of May 1st, 
and a start date of today, I would like to have an alarm for May 1st, 
as well as a todo item "due" today.  Is that possible?

That said, I completely realize this is not how everyone is going to 
want things.  I truly believe, however, that if this functionality 
existed, I would not be the only one using it.

> > If I can't do that, I may try creating the appointments in 
datebk4d 
> > and then linking to them in shadow.  I just want to know what my 
> > options are.
> 
> 	Shadow 1.5 will be able to create shadow items based on 
existing
> datebook and todo items. Right now you typically create items in 
Shadow,
> and link them out. In 1.5, you'll be able to enter shadow and 
say "wait, I
> created it somewhere else, let me add it to my shadow list".

I took a look at the latest snapshot (1.4.10) and I didn't see any 
way to link to existing todo's.  I saw a way to link to existing 
addressbook and memopad records, but not to existing todo or datebook 
records.  Is this the same place that will eventually have support 
for existing todos?

-Joe Chott
296

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Question about linking for Jeff

 
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> setup my long term and short term projects, with project tracking in 
> shadow.  I would like to be able to say that I need to finish 
> project_A by May 1st.  What I really NEED though, to keep focused, is 
> a todo item that -*STAYS*- at the top of my todo list in datebk4d 
> until I check it off, hopefully well ahead of May 1st.  If I 
> configure datebk4d to show only those todo items with priorities 
> higher than 5, then I can choose at the beginning of each week which 

	btw.. you can set a default priority for items.

> of my todo items to make visible so I will work on my priority 
> items.  Therefore, I would like the todo items I create in shadow to 
> default to a priority of 5.  So if I set a target date of May 1st, 
> and a start date of today, I would like to have an alarm for May 1st, 
> as well as a todo item "due" today.  Is that possible?

	Not yet; currently linking creates only the one target link. You
coudl set a target date of the start datw, then hit "link", then hit
"sever" (to break the link, but leave it in the datebook or todo), and
then change the date to its proper target, and link it. 

	Right now, Shadow only stores one todo link. Adding more woudl be
some work. You'd have to go to shadow-discuss and see how many others are
interested before I worry about that (sorry).

> I took a look at the latest snapshot (1.4.10) and I didn't see any 
> way to link to existing todo's.  I saw a way to link to existing 
> addressbook and memopad records, but not to existing todo or datebook 
> records.  Is this the same place that will eventually have support 
> for existing todos?

	Use 1.4.11 right away; 1.4.10 has some nasty in it.

	1.4.12 or so will have "New From..." menu item (under New Item and
New Child). Its in my development copy, but isn't in alpha release yet
(still testing).

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
297

From: ole.klette@c...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Re: DateBk4 Launch / Arranger Return

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., web_egroups@r... wrote:
> > An unrelated but sort of similar feature I'd love to see is being 
> able to
> > return to Shadow Plan when using the link to go to the other 
> applications.
> > Arranger has done this for a long time.  The way it works is you 
go 
> to the
> > linked application (e.g. Datebk4), then when you tap the silk 
screen
> > Application button you return to Shadow Plan.  That would enable 
> things like
> > setting time, floats, categories, and all the features available 
in 
> the
> > target application, then an easy return to Shadow Plan.
> 
> You can currently use App/DA Launcher to bounce back and forth 
> between the current app and the last app. It work just like Kevin 
> mentioned, touch a part of the App button and you return to the 
> previous app. You can also popup a small history of previous apps 
to 
> go to, call the regular application launcher, and launch desktop 
> accessories.
> 
> The version I have is 0.5.2 and I've used it without problems on a 
> Palm IIIx (OS 3.3), IIIxe (OS 3.5), and a Visor Prism (OS 3.5.2H).
> 
> I would also love to see some form of 2-way linking between DateBk4 
> and Shadow. That way I could go from the ToDo reminder in DateBk4 
to 
> the proper record in Shadow. LinkMaster is supposed to do this, but 
> the launching application has to be LinkMaster aware. Currently 
there 
> are very few apps that are LinkMaster aware.
> 
> Jim

I have been using SwitchHack some time for moving back and forth 
between two applications: does also work when following link from 
Shadow to Datebk4 and back (shareware $5 from www.deskfree.com)
Ole
298

From: BYRON E ALLGOOD  <1POPOLO@P...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Sorry all

 
Sorry for big boo boo yesterday. Did not delete excess messages b4 posting.
I just got my digest and feel sick about the mess I've created for other
"digest" members. No doubt already some have already chastized me for my
screw up. I'll get to see those in tommorows digest. Again sorry to all on
the list.
299

From: Jim Robbins  <web_egroups@r...>
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: DateBk4 Launch / Arranger Return

 
> > I would also love to see some form of 2-way linking between DateBk4
> > and Shadow. That way I could go from the ToDo reminder in DateBk4
> to
> > the proper record in Shadow. LinkMaster is supposed to do this, but
> > the launching application has to be LinkMaster aware. Currently
> there
> > are very few apps that are LinkMaster aware.
>
> I have been using SwitchHack some time for moving back and forth
> between two applications: does also work when following link from
> Shadow to Datebk4 and back (shareware $5 from www.deskfree.com)
> Ole

That's great if you start out in Shadow and create a new entry. Then you can
link it to a To-Do, follow the link to the To-Do and edit it, then switch
back to Shadow to keep entering stuff.

What I wanted was I start out in DateBk4. I've looked at my To-Do list for
today and just completed a milestone for a project. I would like to be able
to select the To-Do item and follow a link to Shadow. Shadow would then
start, open the appropriate list, and place me at the proper record.

LinkMaster is supposed to allow this, but it is only supported by a few
apps. What Palm really needs is a standard for linking and back-linking
between applications. Until that happens, I would be (mostly) satisfied if I
could have two-way links between Shadow and DateBk4.

Jim
300

From: siggi@i...
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Jeff! Estimated launch date of v. 1.5

 
I think many of your users would like to know the timeframe for 
version 1.5. It seems to have features that would, at least in my 
case, be a huge leap forward.

Thx
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