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 Msg #   Date  |  Thread
2001

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 0:47am
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 smasters@a... wrote:

> I normally use the same numbering system for all lists, and would also like
> to see auto-numbering go deeper than 3 levels. So the level-lock sounds
> cool. While I've used catenated numbers from time to time it's not a biggie
> for me.

	You can use autonumbering on any levels; its just currently only
lockable for the top 3 levels. Currently, beyond level 3, its set
sub-level by sub-level, which is still pretty useful (a new item will
inherit the autonumbering of items on the same level)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2002

From: ianf@f...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:15am
Subject: Re: Kbd control, and Set Program

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> 	I put that on my list of "frills"; nice tohave, but most people
> only use Set Program twice (since its global, and should save).. so
I
> didn't want to spend a lot of effort on it, since I have more
important
> options to work on :)

OK, this is fine as a frill. The option still doesn't seem to 
"save" for me when I exit shadow, though, so for the moment
I'll just use the memo pad and addr book.

Thanks,

	- Ian.
2003

From: ianf@f...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:21am
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
Hi,

I (maybe...) have one "improving usability" suggestion, too...

In the list preferences dialogue there's a button for 
setting the custom options, but the button is only 
present when the list type is custom... 

This means that if you use one of the preset list types 
for the overall list, but want to set some individual items 
to a different, custom style, you have to go to the prefs
dialogue, change the list type to custom, access and set
the custom settings, and then change the list type back
to the original setting...

I guess the answer is that you shouldn't do evil things like 
use the custom style for individual items, but any chance of
just leaving the custom buttom permanently visible?

Thanks,

	- Ian.
2004

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 0:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kbd control, and Set Program

 
On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> OK, this is fine as a frill. The option still doesn't seem to 
> "save" for me when I exit shadow, though, so for the moment
> I'll just use the memo pad and addr book.

	Doesn't save, ever? What OS version, Shadow version? Any hacks?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2005

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 0:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> I guess the answer is that you shouldn't do evil things like 
> use the custom style for individual items, but any chance of
> just leaving the custom buttom permanently visible?

	Nothing wrong with using the custom style for individual
items; but making the Custom button always available would confuse people
who're just exploring the app or haven't read the manual. ie: They hit
Custom, mess with settings,a nd see no apparent changes. I guess I could
try and leave it there, and when changes are made pop upa box to ask if
they wish to change to custom list view, but then everyone ends up with
extra taps.

	Theres a number of these sort of usability-versus-confusability
issues in Shadow, and I've not really thought of a good way to fix things
yet.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2006

From: ral613@y...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 2:53pm
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 ral613@y... wrote:
> > PROBLEM: I often want to change List Preferences from the main 
Shadow screen.
[...]
> > FIX: I need a "details" button from main screen (list of 
outlines). 
> 
> 	Its on my list of things to do, but not really high since most
> people don't change categories much; a file is usually created and 
set
> into some cat, and left for life.

Maybe it's just because I'm a refugee from BrainForest and I'm 
exploring what Shadow can do, but I find I often change list types 
and numbering to see what's the best presentation. It might be a 
transient -- talk to me after a couple of time constants. :-)

> > PROBLEM: I need to be able to change line item type (task, 
checklist 
> > item, note, ...) quickly and easily, e.g. right from the screen 
with 
> > a pull down menu when some part of the screen is touched.

[...]
> 	I don't like to have much behaviour change based on context; 
that
> tends to confuse people and in general is a GUI no-no. Do you need 
to
> change item type much? (ie: In BF and others, can you do it at
> all?

In BF, shortcut-T toggles the item between a note and either an 
action item with checkbox, or a task with progress bar, depending on 
whether the list is Standard, or Project type.

How about a shortcut command that cycles through all the 
possibilities? That would keep power users happy and stay out of the 
way of others.

> > REQUEST: When importing, display an "in progress" box so I know 
it 
> > hasn't failed on larger imports that take a long time. No one 
likes a 
> > display that appears hung when it's working.
> 
> 	Which imports are slow? Todo imports can be slow but most 
people
> don't import everything more than once. Are memo imports slow?

Yes, it's for memo imports. It's not a big delay, just enough to give 
me that sinking feeling of "Oh hell, time to get out the paperclip". 
Then it's back. Maybe three or four seconds. I have a stock IIIxe 
with about 170 memos.

Even popping up a dialog box that said "Importing..." would be fine. 
No need for a progress indicator. I just don't like UIs that don't 
give immediate feedback.

> 	I'll eventually be adding a auto-number level-lock to make it
> easier to set global numbering. Catenated numbering is on my todo, 
but I dont' get requests for it so I've let it slip. 

I have some big lists with lots of indentation (work breakdowns for 
big projects), and I lose track of where I am in them without 
concatenated numbers.

Oh yeah, I have one more request. :-)

It's a visual cueing issue. When I look at an outline, I sometimes 
find it hard to tell the level of indentation of an item without 
looking closely. That's because you line up the start of each item 
(including any symbols), not the start of the text. BF lines up the 
start of the text, and I find it much easier to view outlines. Any 
chance of changing the screen layout slightly? While you're at it you 
could decrease the amount of space used for indenting items. BF uses 
about one character and I find it just fine.

These might be just little things, but we're shooting for "insanely 
great", right?

--rick
2007

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 7:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ral613@y... wrote:

> Maybe it's just because I'm a refugee from BrainForest and I'm 
> exploring what Shadow can do, but I find I often change list types 
> and numbering to see what's the best presentation. It might be a 
> transient -- talk to me after a couple of time constants. :-)

	Changing that, to see what happens, you can do from within the
list, many different ways. We're talking categories here, though ;)
Changing the view properites is done within a list (since why would you
change them outside a list, where you can't see the effects?). Use
List-Prefs, or the [V] popmenu.

> In BF, shortcut-T toggles the item between a note and either an 
> action item with checkbox, or a task with progress bar, depending on 
> whether the list is Standard, or Project type.
> 
> How about a shortcut command that cycles through all the 
> possibilities? That would keep power users happy and stay out of the 
> way of others.

	Do you need to do this so often that you need a shortcut on the
main view? Most people, including yourself I bet (*g*) change an item
rarely. Usually you know what it is when you create it, no?

> Yes, it's for memo imports. It's not a big delay, just enough to give 
> me that sinking feeling of "Oh hell, time to get out the paperclip". 
> Then it's back. Maybe three or four seconds. I have a stock IIIxe 
> with about 170 memos.

	Oh really? So importing a long memo into a new list takes
awhile? Perhaps a "please wait" box, rather than a progress bar, would be
helpful.

> Even popping up a dialog box that said "Importing..." would be fine. 
> No need for a progress indicator. I just don't like UIs that don't 
> give immediate feedback.

	Sure 'nough.

> It's a visual cueing issue. When I look at an outline, I sometimes 
> find it hard to tell the level of indentation of an item without 
> looking closely. That's because you line up the start of each item 
> (including any symbols), not the start of the text. BF lines up the 
> start of the text, and I find it much easier to view outlines. Any 
> chance of changing the screen layout slightly? While you're at it you 
> could decrease the amount of space used for indenting items. BF uses 
> about one character and I find it just fine.

	So you're saying its hard to see indent, but you want to reduce
it? Odd ;)  I'm reluctant to change the display, since its been the same
way awhile and thus has historical momentum -- changing it could effect
every user. We'd have to have a big vote on that :)

	Do you mean it looks like this in BF?

[] Level 1
[]   Level 2
[]     Level 3

	That'd be odd. I used to allow formatting like that, but it gets
too difficult to see which symbols immediately line up with which text, so
I removed the options.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2008

From: ral613@y...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
> > Maybe it's just because I'm a refugee from BrainForest and I'm 
> > exploring what Shadow can do, but I find I often change list 
types 
> > and numbering to see what's the best presentation. It might be a 
> > transient -- talk to me after a couple of time constants. :-)
> 
> 	Changing that, to see what happens, you can do from within the
> list, many different ways. We're talking categories here, though ;)

Actually that's where you lost sync. :-)

Let me work with it the way you designed it for now.

---- Next Issue ------

> Changing the view properites is done within a list (since why would 
you
> change them outside a list, where you can't see the effects?). Use
> List-Prefs, or the [V] popmenu.

I want to change the type of *one* item only, not the whole list. 
Right now I have to do this (from within a list):

- Select the item
- Tap "Details"
- Pull down item type menu
- Select the new type
- Tap "OK"

I'd like to do it in one or two taps. In Brainforest the long way 
takes just as long, but there is /T to do it quickly.

---- Next Issue ------

> So importing a long memo into a new list takes
> awhile? Perhaps a "please wait" box, rather than a progress bar, 
would be helpful.

Exactly. That's all I need. Just so I know the import is in progress.

---- Next Issue ------

> 	So you're saying its hard to see indent, but you want to 
reduce
> it? Odd ;)

Do it more clearly and you won't need so much indent. :-)
Then you'll save screen space too.

> 	Do you mean it looks like this in BF?
> 
> [] Level 1
> []   Level 2
> []     Level 3

No, Brainforest looks like this:

[] Level 1
  [] Level 2
    [] Level 3

However, more to the point, when you mix item types on each level it 
looks like this:

 [] Level 1
   [] Level 2 with checkbox
    o Level 2 with just a bullet
   [] Another level 2 checkbox
    o Another bullet
      o Level 3 task
     [] Level 3 with checkbox

It's the same if you change your list type to "project". You get 
progress bars instead of checkboxes, but the item descriptions still 
line up.

In Shadow, for example, if you have a checklist with autonumbering 
set to bullets, you can get a display that looks like this when you 
mix item types:

 [] o Level 1 checklist item
   [] o Level 2 checklist item
   o Level 2 custom type                   ===
   [] o Level 2 tasklist item              ===
   o Level 2 note
   [] o Level 2 checklist item
     o Level 3 note
     [] o Level 3 checklist item

It would be much better if Shadow was like this:

 [] o Level 1 checklist item
   [] o Level 2 checklist item
      o Level 2 custom type                 ===
   [] o Level 2 tasklist item               ===
      o Level 2 note
   [] o Level 2 checklist item
        o Level 3 note
     [] o Level 3 checklist item

See the difference?

--rick
2009

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ral613@y... wrote:

> I want to change the type of *one* item only, not the whole list. 
> Right now I have to do this (from within a list):
> 
> - Select the item
> - Tap "Details"
> - Pull down item type menu
> - Select the new type
> - Tap "OK"
> 
> I'd like to do it in one or two taps. In Brainforest the long way 
> takes just as long, but there is /T to do it quickly.

	I know. But *why*?

	Items generally fall into a view category and dont' change around
much. Since they dont' change much, spending a few taps isn't a big
deal. ie: Do you change 10 items view per list per day?

	The most common activities need to be streamlined. Least common
activities don't need to be streamlined. Since resources are limited, we
minimize taps for the top activities.

> In Shadow, for example, if you have a checklist with autonumbering 
> set to bullets, you can get a display that looks like this when you 
> mix item types:
> 
>  [] o Level 1 checklist item
>    [] o Level 2 checklist item
>    o Level 2 custom type                   ===
>    [] o Level 2 tasklist item              ===
>    o Level 2 note
>    [] o Level 2 checklist item
>      o Level 3 note
>      [] o Level 3 checklist item
> 
> It would be much better if Shadow was like this:
> 
>  [] o Level 1 checklist item
>    [] o Level 2 checklist item
>       o Level 2 custom type                 ===
>    [] o Level 2 tasklist item               ===
>       o Level 2 note
>    [] o Level 2 checklist item
>         o Level 3 note
>      [] o Level 3 checklist item
> 
> See the difference?

	Maybe ;)

	I'll look into it in awhile; the display needs a lot of
updates.. high res, roation, handling mixed views better.. and this seems
reasonable, but I'll have to see it in action ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2010

From: ral613@y...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 10:09pm
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
> > I'd like to do it in one or two taps. In Brainforest the long way 
> > takes just as long, but there is /T to do it quickly.
> 
> 	I know. But *why*?

Because I like to bang out a quick work breakdown for a project, with 
all tasks as note items, and without really being sure if the WBS is 
what I want.  A list of notes is easy on the eyes. Then as the 
project progresses I can add more note items, turn tasks into real 
tasklist items, and add more sub-items. Once I'm ready to clutter my 
ToDo list with the things I really have to do, I turn them into 
checklist items and link them. Sometimes I delegate tasks, in which 
case I want them to change them back to notes because a checkbox to 
me says it's something *I* have to do. Sometimes something I think is 
a simple task turns out to be more complex. Then I want to turn it 
into a tasklist item so I can track percentage complete.

> 	Items generally fall into a view category and dont' change 
around
> much. Since they dont' change much, spending a few taps isn't a big
> deal. ie: Do you change 10 items view per list per day?

Upon occasion I have changed more than 10 items on a list, although I 
don't do it every day.

> 	The most common activities need to be streamlined. Least 
common
> activities don't need to be streamlined. Since resources are 
limited, we
> minimize taps for the top activities.

I agree, but how did you decide what activities are most common? 

And howcome nobody asked me? :-)  

-rick
2011

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 0:55am
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ral613@y... wrote:

> I agree, but how did you decide what activities are most common? 
> 
> And howcome nobody asked me? :-)  

	hehe :) I usually go by vote, public opinion, email feedcback,
"commonly known stuff" from other outliners, books, etc. Also, I asked a
couple hundred people before I built the user interface :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2012

From: ianf@f...
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 1:43am
Subject: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., smasters@a... wrote:
> "That said.. anyone else think having the person or memo icon on
> expanded links should perform a goto? I didn't do this originally,
since I
> figured peopel might be tapping there for drag and drop, or double
tapping
> for details, or other normal item stuff.."     jeff
> 
> Personally I like the current functionality. You can expand the list
to
> just see the numerous links, then you can click on the link arrow to
GoTo
> the link if necessary. So I would rather it was left as is.

Does it count if I vote for this option myself? :)

Let me also toss in another suggestion. Add an
option to modify the linking behaviour as follows: if there is only
a *single* link set up, then tapping on the link arrow takes
you directly to the link (without bringing up the little
window with the option for starting the link manager).
This is how DB4 works. For expanded links, the arrow at the
end of each expanded link would take you straight there, 
and the arrow for the parent item would allow access to the
link manager.

Sorry to just throw ideas out, but the above would also
help me with the following that I was experimenting with.

I have a category called "Projects" with all my projects
(one file for each project). I'd like to be able to look
at the overall list and jump between them as quickly as 
possible. I can get an overview with the top-level register
screen (and I like the count that this gives me of 
unchecked/total items), but I find the display a little
slow to come back to many times after looking at each project.
So, I tried making a master-list of projects and linking 
to each project file. I found myself wanting:

  O The arrow to jump directly to the linked file
  O A "back" button on the screen
  O A "New From"-style option for creating links
    to shadow files that automatically sets up the 
    link and the name of the created item (at the
    moment, you need to re-enter the name and
    then create the link).


I wondered if I was doing this with the "wrong" 
philosophy... I could keep all the projects in
one shadow file, and then probably move around
them quicker. But since Shadow gives me file
links but not links to items inside files, I
would then lose the ability to link to specific
projects from other files. 

In previous mail, Jeff talked about giving 
screen space to speed up file level operations.
Since I have many files, this is exactly what
I'd like (esp the back button...), but I'd be
interested to hear what priorities other people
give to file-level operations.

Thanks,

	- Ian.
2013

From: ianf@f...
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 1:52am
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:
> 
> > I guess the answer is that you shouldn't do evil things like 
> > use the custom style for individual items, but any chance of
> > just leaving the custom buttom permanently visible?
> 
> 	Nothing wrong with using the custom style for individual
> items; but making the Custom button always available would confuse
people
> who're just exploring the app or haven't read the manual. ie: They
hit
> Custom, mess with settings,a nd see no apparent changes. I guess I
could
> try and leave it there, and when changes are made pop upa box to ask
if
> they wish to change to custom list view, but then everyone ends up
with
> extra taps.

OK, I see your perspective. I'm glad that I just get to ask
the Shadow questions, and don't have to answer them :)

I'd still like to be abkle to change the custom settings
without changing list type twice, so some possible suggestions
to keep the button visible and still not confuse manual-non-readers:

  O A window that pops up and explains the custom 
    button on the first use.
  O A sentence like "These options only take effect if
    you select "Custom" as the file type" in the Custom
    options window.
  O An "i" information window on the Custom settings
    window that explains the same.
  O shade the button normally (but still allow it to bring
    up the settings window), render in bold when the 
    custom list type is actually selected.

Thanks,

	- Ian.
2014

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:03pm
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> Let me also toss in another suggestion. Add an
> option to modify the linking behaviour as follows: if there is only
> a *single* link set up, then tapping on the link arrow takes
> you directly to the link (without bringing up the little
> window with the option for starting the link manager).

	Can't do; as before, this is changing the UI behaviour based on
context, which vonfuses users. Also, it then removes the ability to cancel
the action by tapping outside of the popbox. Adding actions to the people
icons doens't seem like a bad idea to me, though (ie: Since we would not
be removing anything). I'm just concerned it might trip people up if too
much becomes "active" area. (ie: Getting harder and harder to tap
somewhere to select an item :P)

> Sorry to just throw ideas out, but the above would also
> help me with the following that I was experimenting with.

	Throwing ideas out is what the game is all about. How else do we
innovate? Keep it up :)  Just remember I get a few dozen ideas a day and
have to make sure I take only ones that make sense, dont' bloat, and help
the majority. Or are just cool. I'm also working on the desktop app when I
can, so I'm pretty strapped for time. But that doesnt' mean to stop
suggesting.. they still go on my todo list :)

>   O The arrow to jump directly to the linked file

	This'd confuse people though, as above. It just doesn't feel right
to me in the UI design sense. It used to work like this, actually (for a
short time), but it got me lots of email from testers :)  I thought about
a pref, but we're getting to have too many already :P

>   O A "back" button on the screen

	I thought about this a lot; the recent-files seems a good
approach. Though the idea of having both recent and last files in order,
in the one popup list, might be a good idea. So it could look like:

Shopping
Housework
Project A
Books
-----------
Shopping
Books
Shopping
Project A
*Back

	So the top would be recent files. The bottom would be recent files
in order. Then maybe a "Back" option. Forward would start to be annoying,
I think :P

>   O A "New From"-style option for creating links
>     to shadow files that automatically sets up the
>     link and the name of the created item (at the
>     moment, you need to re-enter the name and
>     then create the link).

	I'm confused. NEw from creates a sync item from existing
data. Linking to an existing item is conceptually different. NEw from a
File doesn't make sense, except perhaps to import, but thats done
separately.

> I wondered if I was doing this with the "wrong"  philosophy... I could
> keep all the projects in one shadow file, and then probably move
> around them quicker. But since Shadow gives me file links but not
> links to items inside files, I would then lose the ability to link to
> specific projects from other files.

	Correct. I will eventually allow linking to items within files,
but its complex so I've put it off awhile..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2015

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> I'd still like to be abkle to change the custom settings
> without changing list type twice, so some possible suggestions
> to keep the button visible and still not confuse manual-non-readers:

	Yeah; I guess chalk it up as another option for "Expert mode",
someday. (Reveal more buttons all at once, replace buttons with oicons to
cram more in, etc.)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2016

From: Steven Whatley  <swhatley@b...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:55pm
Subject: Re: Palmtop-Pro Essentials (OT)

 
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 smasters@a... wrote:
> Palmtop-Pro has put together a list of "Approved Essentials". There 
> are only 15 apps listed, and guess what app is number 3?

OT: I looked at what Palmtop-Pro calls "essential".  I wasn't impressed. 
The only apps that I used that are on the list are X-Master/McPhling and
Shadow Plan.  Nontheless, congrats on getting on another "recommended" 
list. 

Later,
Steven
2017

From: Dash  <just1dash@y...>
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 11:10pm
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
I am surprised that testers indicated problems with an automatic jump 
to the only link -- this seems the logical approach to me.  I have 
found the list behavoir frustrating and have often wished for just 
this feature.

I guess if it won't work, it won't work; but, add my vote to this 
suggestion if you ever revisit the issue.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:
> 
> > Let me also toss in another suggestion. Add an
> > option to modify the linking behaviour as follows: if there is 
only
> > a *single* link set up, then tapping on the link arrow takes
> > you directly to the link (without bringing up the little
> > window with the option for starting the link manager).
> 
> 	Can't do; as before, this is changing the UI behaviour based 
on
> context, which vonfuses users. Also, it then removes the ability to 
cancel
> the action by tapping outside of the popbox. Adding actions to the 
people
> icons doens't seem like a bad idea to me, though (ie: Since we 
would not
> be removing anything). I'm just concerned it might trip people up 
if too
> much becomes "active" area. (ie: Getting harder and harder to tap
> somewhere to select an item :P)
>
2018

From: idexis@y...
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 2:13am
Subject:

 
Hi Jeff and the rest of the group.

I've been registered user of Shadow for...well a long time and of 
course it's the best thing around. Still I'm waiting for 
news/progress on new features, discussed earlier in this group. 
i) Flat filter (Jeff, I sent my thoughts on this under different 
usrn. several months ago). For Project Management use, filtering out 
all items with no children (action items) would be extremely nice. I 
know there's another opinion about flat filtering and taking items 
out of context. Still.

ii) Tagging.

I'm aware of the amount of work put in the desktop app, and I 
understand the pressure. NTL, Shadow is a Palm app and IMHO the focus 
should be there.

Well, enough for my 2cents

reg, s
2019

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:48am
Subject: Re: (unknown)

 
On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 idexis@y... wrote:

> i) Flat filter (Jeff, I sent my thoughts on this under different 
> usrn. several months ago). For Project Management use, filtering out 
> all items with no children (action items) would be extremely nice. I 
> know there's another opinion about flat filtering and taking items 
> out of context. Still.

	Still on my radar for both the palm and desktop app; will revisit
after the desktop gets out the door. Must stay focused. Its a royal pain
;)

> ii) Tagging.

	Yep; this is way up on my goals.

> I'm aware of the amount of work put in the desktop app, and I 
> understand the pressure. NTL, Shadow is a Palm app and IMHO the focus 
> should be there.

	It has been, for a year ;) Really, I've just not had a lot of time
for anything in the last 2 mo, but I've been really working on a number of
enhancements in that time anyway. (Witness 1.5.14, which is a big
improvement over 1.5.6 and 1.5.0). The desktop app is complex, and I've
gone back to scratch a couple of times .. trying to get the right mix of
"simple" and "getting out the door" and "useful" :)

	The number one request, by far, always has been desktop (ie: 10
requetss a *day*). I'm finally doing what I owe everyone on that count. I
think I've done okay on the palm side over the last year, though I agree
Ineed to keep on trucking at it ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2020

From: verxion@p...
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:52am
Subject: Feature request

 
Jeff,

Put this somewhere in your list.  It -*NEEDS*- to be done eventually.

It doesn't need to be done immediately.

Bonus: I think it will increase your sales!  :)

The actual feature:  VFS support for file read/write.

I am very happy with how Shadow is these days.  Thanks for all the hard work!  :)

-Joe Chott
2021

From: kevinprice@u...
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 7:12am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
I've wished tapping the link arrow would take me directly to the linked item as well, but on the other hand, if that were the case would we lose the pop-up of other links if there are more than one?

As another solution, I kind of like the "live" icon idea, such as tapping the head icon for a contact and going directly there.

And, thinking out loud here, perhaps making that particular icon a bit smaller and also creating icons for todo and memo items.  Maybe a checked checkbox graphic for todos and a memo page graphic for the memo's, all to the left of the item (and viewable by preference setting).

And, to take this a step further... maybe customizable icons (such as ActionNames)?

Kevin

P.S. I personally don't think this will be an intuitive interface issue since tapping an icon to initiate an action is a commonplace feature in palm programming.  You'd still have the list text itself (the majority of space) to tap to open the item, which also is common and intuitive for that result.


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Dash" <just1dash@y...> wrote:
> I am surprised that testers indicated problems with an automatic jump 
> to the only link -- this seems the logical approach to me.  I have 
> found the list behavoir frustrating and have often wished for just 
> this feature.
> 
> I guess if it won't work, it won't work; but, add my vote to this 
> suggestion if you ever revisit the issue.
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:
> > 
> > > Let me also toss in another suggestion. Add an
> > > option to modify the linking behaviour as follows: if there is 
> only
> > > a *single* link set up, then tapping on the link arrow takes
> > > you directly to the link (without bringing up the little
> > > window with the option for starting the link manager).
> > 
> >     Can't do; as before, this is changing the UI behaviour based 
> on
> > context, which vonfuses users. Also, it then removes the ability to 
> cancel
> > the action by tapping outside of the popbox. Adding actions to the 
> people
> > icons doens't seem like a bad idea to me, though (ie: Since we 
> would not
> > be removing anything). I'm just concerned it might trip people up 
> if too
> > much becomes "active" area. (ie: Getting harder and harder to tap
> > somewhere to select an item :P)
> >
2022

From: kevinprice@u...
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
Although I've read this through a few times, I don't find it intuitive.  Two similar yet differently-sorted lists combined into one list under the "recent" button... hmmm.

I'd suggest making the Recent button work as follows:

Tap the Recent button, and up pops a list with a "Favorites" heading and another list under it (or above it) with a "Recent" headng.  Under each heading is the appropriate files... chosen favorite files and auto-added recent files.  Recent files would be ordered with the most recent at the bottom.  Favorites would be ordered per preference or alphabetically, so that you'd quickly become familia with their location.

Maybe 5 of each type, should be enough... or, optionally, a configurable number could be set by the user.

Worth considering?

Kevin

"...the recent-files seems a good approach (for adding "back" capability). Though the idea of having both recent and last files in order, in the one popup list, might be a good idea. So it could look like: 
Shopping 
Housework 
Project A 
Books 
----------- 
Shopping 
Books 
Shopping 
Project A 
*Back 
        So the top would be recent files. The bottom would be recent files in order. Then maybe a "Back" option. Forward would start to be annoying, I think."
2023

From: opitz@s...
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:
> 
> > I wondered if I was doing this with the "wrong"  philosophy... I 
could
> > keep all the projects in one shadow file, and then probably move
> > around them quicker. But since Shadow gives me file links but not
> > links to items inside files, I would then lose the ability to link 
to
> > specific projects from other files.
> 
> 	Correct. I will eventually allow linking to items within 
files,
> but its complex so I've put it off awhile..
> 
> 		jeff

When you do this, could you also try to get it so that LinkerHack 
links work consistently? I've noticed problems maintaining links to 
individual records. If I have the following outline:

Main 1
     Sub A
     Sub B
Main 2
     Sub X
     Sub Y

and I create a link to "Main 2", then I later add to the "Main 1" 
item, so the outline looks like:

Main 1
     Sub A
     Sub B
     Sub C
Main 2
     Sub X
     Sub Y

my link now jumps to Sub C. I have similar problems if I re-order the 
main point, i.e. put Main 2 before Main 1. The Linkerhack link always 
seems to be to the slot in the outline (e.g. the 3rd item), and not 
the record.

I don't have this problem in ListMaker. As long as the item is in the 
same outline, I can move it around all I want and still jump to it. 
(This is the only thing I can find that Shadow doesn't do better than 
Listmaker.)

Bob Opitz
2024

From: Frank Crowe  <fcrowe@i...>
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2001 2:55am
Subject: shadow freezes on SONY N710C

 
This happens with and without hacks activated.

Enter application arrive at new file screen.

Create new file name, tap OK

next screen is input screen for 1st Parent

Enter info for 1st Parent, tap OK

App freezes.


Soft reset required

No data stored in shadow.  If I repeat the process above it does the same
thing.

I have uninstalled, removed orphans and reinstalled, same thing.

Uninstalled current version, removed orphans, reinstall older version, same
thing.

Shadow and files are NOT on the memory stick.
2025

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Aug 26, 2001 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 opitz@s... wrote:

> When you do this, could you also try to get it so that LinkerHack 
> links work consistently? I've noticed problems maintaining links to 
> individual records. If I have the following outline:

	I don't go out of my way tomake hacks' lives easier. They do
unknown and sometimes odd things, and theres tens of thousands of
them. That said,I don't tryto make their lives hard, either ;)

> Main 1
>      Sub A
>      Sub B
> Main 2
>      Sub X
>      Sub Y
> 
> and I create a link to "Main 2", then I later add to the "Main 1" 
> item, so the outline looks like:
> 
> Main 1
>      Sub A
>      Sub B
>      Sub C
> Main 2
>      Sub X
>      Sub Y
> 
> my link now jumps to Sub C. I have similar problems if I re-order the 
> main point, i.e. put Main 2 before Main 1. The Linkerhack link always 
> seems to be to the slot in the outline (e.g. the 3rd item), and not 
> the record.

	I wonder how linker hack does its linking.. how does it know which
object to jump to? How is it intercepting things? It'd be linkerhacks
problem here, I think -- if its going by absolute record number or
something, theres not much I can do .. it should be using unique-id of the
item, and that doesn't change.

	btw, each item is a record. Main1 is a record, Sub C is a record.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2026

From: ChrisRobinso@a...
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:35am
Subject: new user fears

 
Hello all -

I am a new Shadow user. Have some fears because I use my 
PDA with a Mac, and have found that Palm Desktop software 
shares the bizarre problem of its predecessor (Claris Organizer) 
- specifically, that tasks with attachments start making my 
desktop software go haywire. It either starts spontaneously 
creating nonsense tasks (with due dates of 1904, etc.), or the 
desktop software will freeze on launch. That kind of thing. My 
system stays stable as long as I DON'T try to attach contacts or 
notes to tasks.

Anyway, I've just quit using a demo for "Life Balance" PDA 
software because, for some reason, when it transferred tasks 
from the Palm software, it would put attachments on them (just a 
note with "LB" and a long number - but it was enough to cause 
the dreaded launch-freezes and creation of nonsense-tasks. So 
I've dumped it and am looking for another project management 
approach.

So as I install Shadow on my PDA, I'm wondering - am I at risk 
for Shadow causing the same problem? Does Shadow 
automatically attach other items to tasks?
Has anyone on this list had similar problems?

Thanks,
Chris R
2027

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 0:02pm
Subject: Re: shadow freezes on SONY N710C

 
Known issue; bug in Clie OS/hardware interaction. You either
disable col-bg option on list-prefs, or run in low-res mode :/ I'm trying
to identify a fix, but its tough since it doesnt' show under emulation..
only on real units :/

		jeff

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Frank Crowe wrote:

> This happens with and without hacks activated.
> 
> Enter application arrive at new file screen.
> 
> Create new file name, tap OK
> 
> next screen is input screen for 1st Parent
> 
> Enter info for 1st Parent, tap OK
> 
> App freezes.
> 
> 
> Soft reset required
> 
> No data stored in shadow.  If I repeat the process above it does the same
> thing.
> 
> I have uninstalled, removed orphans and reinstalled, same thing.
> 
> Uninstalled current version, removed orphans, reinstall older version, same
> thing.
> 
> Shadow and files are NOT on the memory stick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2028

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: Re: new user fears

 
On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 ChrisRobinso@a... wrote:

> So as I install Shadow on my PDA, I'm wondering - am I at risk for
> Shadow causing the same problem? Does Shadow automatically attach
> other items to tasks? Has anyone on this list had similar problems?

	The conduit for Mac is not yet available (sorry), but is being
developed at the same time as the new windows conduit (fear not!). When
Shadow ties into other databases, like todo/datebook/etc it uses them in
the standard fashnio and does not insert stuff into fields you wouldnt'
expect. (It doesn't add attachments for its own extensions). Also, the
lions share of Shadow data is in Shadow files, and the Shadow conduit
keeps it there, where the upcoming Shadow desktop applicatin can use
it. So you won't have to worry -- Shadow doesn't live in the other
databases, it just links to them as you require.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2029

From: samir.kasme@s...
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 2:49pm
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	The most common activities need to be streamlined. Least 
common
> activities don't need to be streamlined. Since resources are 
limited, we
> minimize taps for the top activities.


Agreed on that, Jeff. But it reminds of something I've always found 
annoying: to get to List/Preferences you have no Shortcut, why? I 
happen to go to List/Preferences quite often, am I the only one? Be 
it to change the custom settings, check the list options, change the 
auto-numbering or whatever. This would deserve a shortcut or even a 
button IMO (there is still room for a small button on the last line ;-
).

What do you think?
Samir
2030

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 3:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 samir.kasme@s... wrote:

> Agreed on that, Jeff. But it reminds of something I've always found 
> annoying: to get to List/Preferences you have no Shortcut, why? I 
> happen to go to List/Preferences quite often, am I the only one? Be 
> it to change the custom settings, check the list options, change the 
> auto-numbering or whatever. This would deserve a shortcut or even a 
> button IMO (there is still room for a small button on the last line ;-

	Never had a request for it, and I don't envision people going to
it too often. ie: I never do. I set the options once, and I'm done :P
Also, a shotcut is two taps/swipes. The list prefs is at most 3 (menu or
title, then list, then prefs). So its not that bad relative to shortcut ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2031

From: Rick Low  <ral613@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 samir.kasme@s... wrote:
> 
> > Agreed on that, Jeff. But it reminds of something I've always 
found 
> > annoying: to get to List/Preferences you have no Shortcut, why? I 
> > happen to go to List/Preferences quite often, am I the only one? 
Be 
> > it to change the custom settings, check the list options, change 
the 
> > auto-numbering or whatever. This would deserve a shortcut or even 
a 
> > button IMO (there is still room for a small button on the last 
line ;-
> 
> 	Never had a request for it

Sure you did! Right here a few days ago:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shadow-discuss/message/1997

--rick
2032

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 4:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Improving usability

 
On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Rick Low wrote:

> > 	Never had a request for it
> 
> Sure you did! Right here a few days ago:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shadow-discuss/message/1997

	<grin>
	New house rule; don't make the burned out programmer eat crow ;)
	</grin>

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2033

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 3:59pm
Subject: Shadow clip -> Palm clip?

 
This is an idea I've been bouncing around in my head for awhile,
but I didnt' think many would use besides me. Someone did ask me about it
now, and I'm wondering.. would it be useful?

	Currently, Shadow has two clipboards; its own, for items and
multi-items and such, and the Palm clipboard, which can only hold a small
amount of text. (Shadow works with the palm text clip when you're using
the standard cut/copy/paste operations in Detail and Notes. When on the
main list screen, your'e using Shadows clip/multi-clip).

	So, what about an option.. Edit menu and [V] popmenu. "Copy Shadow
Clip to Pal clip".

	This would copy the text from the Shadow clipped items into the
palm text clipboard (overwriting whatever is there). Maybe keep dates or
something. The palm text clip is pretty small, only holding a few screens
of data (1k maybe? not much). But you could probabyl havbe 5 or 10 items
in the Shadow clip, and do this conversion, and then go to some other palm
app and do a Paste.

	The idea is that you could clip a bunch of Shadow items, and then
paste them into an email, or a DOC writer, or whatever, by using the
Shadow -> Palm clip coverter.

	Useful?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2034

From: Rick Low  <ral613@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 4:46pm
Subject: New house rules (was Re: Improving usability)

 
> 	<grin>
> 	New house rule; don't make the burned out programmer eat 
crow ;)
> 	</grin>

OK, whenever we say things you don't want to hear, we'll use the 
word "Zimbabwe" somewhere in the posting. :-)

Same thing in your reply if you want to pretend a posting never 
happened. :-)

Besides, the crows in Toronto probably have West Nile virus by now.

--rick
2035

From: Anthony Milonas  <tonyelit@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:52pm
Subject: Dtbk4 Shadow interoperability

 
I would like to manualy set Dtbk4  event parameters and especialy the category  from ShadowPlan changing the Tagged Note Field directly using Pop! to select the category selection strings  
I have encountered the following problem:
if i set it from the desktop copying a string like "##@@B@@@@@@@@@@@@@@" and with a newline as last char, in the note field, the category B (category 2)  is set correctly. If i set it copying the exact same string to the datebook stub application, copying the exact same string and then goto DTBK4,  the category is not set eventhough i see the particular event with the default icon for the category B. Initialy i thought that the newline terminatoe char was not copied so i copied one additional char after it to be sure that newline was copied in the note field. One interesting fact is that if i copied the same string to the stub database, don/'t go to DTbk4 but instead HotSync and then goto DTBK4 then the category is set corectly. Maybe the SyncSort which occurs after the HotSync somehow changes things.
I am using Dtbk4 4.0D
Any help would be appreciated



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2036

From: Michael Bryan  <moid@e...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 0:17am
Subject: RE: Shadow clip -> Palm clip?

 
This sounds like a great idea to me. Also, there are hacks and/or apps out
there that increase the Palm clipboard size to be the size of available
memory. I use cliphack personally and love it. I can copy/paste entire memos
in one step. I'd be able to do the same with entire Shadow Lists if this is
implemented. Put me down as a "Yes" on this one.

thanks,
-mike




-> 	So, what about an option.. Edit menu and [V] popmenu. "Copy Shadow
-> Clip to Pal clip".
->
-> 	This would copy the text from the Shadow clipped items into the
-> palm text clipboard (overwriting whatever is there). Maybe keep dates or
-> something. The palm text clip is pretty small, only holding a few screens
-> of data (1k maybe? not much). But you could probabyl havbe 5 or 10 items
-> in the Shadow clip, and do this conversion, and then go to some
-> other palm
-> app and do a Paste.
->
-> 	The idea is that you could clip a bunch of Shadow items, and then
-> paste them into an email, or a DOC writer, or whatever, by using the
-> Shadow -> Palm clip coverter.
->
-> 	Useful?
2037

From: ricardo131@y...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 3:39am
Subject: Multi-Project Flat View

 
A pop-up asking which outlines be included with an option to save the 
resulting flat view would be my preferance.. What sorting and 
filtering options will be available for the flat view ?
2038

From: ianf@f...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 5:30am
Subject: Re: Kbd control, and Set Program

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:
> 
> > OK, this is fine as a frill. The option still doesn't seem to 
> > "save" for me when I exit shadow, though, so for the moment
> > I'll just use the memo pad and addr book.
> 
> 	Doesn't save, ever? What OS version, Shadow version? Any hacks?

I'm running Shadow on a Japanese m505 (that is, an m505 sold 
with the Japanese ROMs), PalmOS4.0.0, and Shadow 1.5.14. Also
running quite a few hacks, but trying to set this up without 
all the hacks has the same effect. Works once, and then the
option is forgotten. 

Thanks,

	- Ian.
2039

From: ianf@f...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:00am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> >   O A "New From"-style option for creating links
> >     to shadow files that automatically sets up the
> >     link and the name of the created item (at the
> >     moment, you need to re-enter the name and
> >     then create the link).
> 
> 	I'm confused. NEw from creates a sync item from existing
> data. Linking to an existing item is conceptually different. NEw
from a
> File doesn't make sense, except perhaps to import, but thats done
> separately.

Maybe the name "New From" isn't right for this option, but the
behaviour I'd like is for the link manager to create an item in 
the current list that has the same name as an existing Shadow file,
and is linked to that Shadow file. At the moment, to achieve
this  I need to manually enter the name of the item in the current
list as well as calling up the link manager to create the link. 

> > I wondered if I was doing this with the "wrong"  philosophy... I
could
> > keep all the projects in one shadow file, and then probably move
> > around them quicker. But since Shadow gives me file links but not
> > links to items inside files, I would then lose the ability to link
to
> > specific projects from other files.
> 
> 	Correct. I will eventually allow linking to items within files,
> but its complex so I've put it off awhile..

I guess one of the problems I'm having here is that the 
top-level register (display of all files) is slow on my m505.
Starting up Shadow when the app isn't open to a specific file
takes 3.5 secs with no hacks running. When Shadow is viewing
a file, though, startup is less than a second.

I suppose that Shadow does a full search of the memory 
for the ShadP- files each time it goes to the top-level register.
For me, Shadow would be an even better experience if this 
info could be cached in some way... For instance, when I
run MSMount (no Shadow files are mounted on the card, 
MSMount is just active), the startup time with no hacks goes up to
4.5secs (this happens whether Shadow is included in the MSMount
disable list or not). Also, the link manager window seems to 
have a similar time delay that suggests that it's looking for
the list of possible shadow file links, too...?

Thanks much,

	- Ian.
2040

From: ianf@f...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:21am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> >   O A "back" button on the screen
> 
> 	I thought about this a lot; the recent-files seems a good
> approach. Though the idea of having both recent and last files in
order,
> in the one popup list, might be a good idea. So it could look like:
> 
> Shopping
> Housework
> Project A
> Books
> -----------
> Shopping
> Books
> Shopping
> Project A
> *Back

I think I agree with Kevin Price's response to this... A list
split in two is fine, but a favourites list and a recent list
would be more intuitive for me....

>  Then maybe a "Back" option. Forward would start to be annoying,
> I think :P

Yes, a back is probably enough for me. Preferably as an icon
on the screen, although I'm not sure where one could be squeezed
in...

Thanks,

	- Ian.
2041

From: ianf@f...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:43am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote
> > Sorry to just throw ideas out
> 	Throwing ideas out is what the game is all about. How else do we
> innovate? Keep it up :) 

Will try...

> > Let me also toss in another suggestion. Add an
> > option to modify the linking behaviour as follows: if there is
only
> > a *single* link set up, then  tapping on the link arrow takes
> > you directly to the link (without bringing up the little
> > window with the option for starting the link manager).
>  
> 	Can't do; as before, this is changing the UI behaviour based on
> context, which vonfuses users. 

Actually, this is how I feel about the disappearing "Custom" box....

OOps... Wrong kind of innovation, right... :)

	- Ian.
2042

From: ianf@f...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:47am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., kevinprice@u... wrote:
> I've wished tapping the link arrow would take me directly to the
linked item as well, but on the other hand, if that were the case
would we lose the pop-up of other links if there are more than one?

In DB4, tapping on the link icon follows the link if it's
a single link, but if there is more than one link, it 
brings up a link popup much the same as the popup that
Shadow currently produces. A possible modelt to follow.

	- Ian.
2043

From: Dash  <just1dash@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:01am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
I suppose that I shouldn't muddy the waters further, but as long as 
we are throwing out linking ideas, here is another option to 
consider.  

One of the nice things about Life Balance (although I found it 
cumbersome, overall) and some database programs like HandyShopper is 
the ability to have an item appear in more than one list.  Such an 
ability in ShadowPlan would definitely be a killer addition.  Would 
it be possible to impliment the internal record links with an option 
like a todo link where the item appears in both (or more!) lists and 
checking it in one list also checks it in the other?

I know that this would be awesome for those who want to organize 
around a concept of lists for potential action under different 
circumstances or in different locations.  Jeff posted a sort 
of "hello" note on the GtD_Palm discussion board earlier and such a 
linking ability would definitely excite the "Getting Things Done" 
crowd (note that the moderator of that group is also a member of this 
one).

BTW, direct link jumping and editing in place, as currently being 
discussed, would also be most important.

If all of this were implimented (along with a desktop, I guess), I 
don't see how anyone would bother to look at any other similar 
program.

 - In shadow-discuss@y..., ianf@f... wrote:
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > >   O A "New From"-style option for creating links
> > >     to shadow files that automatically sets up the
> > >     link and the name of the created item (at the
> > >     moment, you need to re-enter the name and
> > >     then create the link).
> > 
> > 	I'm confused. NEw from creates a sync item from existing
> > data. Linking to an existing item is conceptually different. NEw
> from a
> > File doesn't make sense, except perhaps to import, but thats done
> > separately.
> 
> Maybe the name "New From" isn't right for this option, but the
> behaviour I'd like is for the link manager to create an item in 
> the current list that has the same name as an existing Shadow file,
> and is linked to that Shadow file. At the moment, to achieve
> this  I need to manually enter the name of the item in the current
> list as well as calling up the link manager to create the link. 
>
2044

From: Neal Cordle  <ncordle@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:28am
Subject: RE: Shadow clip -> Palm clip?

 
Yes,  this would be useful to me.  In fact, I've found myself trying to do this and remembering that the two have not yet become
one!

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 5:59 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Shadow clip -> Palm clip?



	This is an idea I've been bouncing around in my head for awhile,
but I didnt' think many would use besides me. Someone did ask me about it
now, and I'm wondering.. would it be useful?

	Currently, Shadow has two clipboards; its own, for items and
multi-items and such, and the Palm clipboard, which can only hold a small
amount of text. (Shadow works with the palm text clip when you're using
the standard cut/copy/paste operations in Detail and Notes. When on the
main list screen, your'e using Shadows clip/multi-clip).

	So, what about an option.. Edit menu and [V] popmenu. "Copy Shadow
Clip to Pal clip".

	This would copy the text from the Shadow clipped items into the
palm text clipboard (overwriting whatever is there). Maybe keep dates or
something. The palm text clip is pretty small, only holding a few screens
of data (1k maybe? not much). But you could probabyl havbe 5 or 10 items
in the Shadow clip, and do this conversion, and then go to some other palm
app and do a Paste.

	The idea is that you could clip a bunch of Shadow items, and then
paste them into an email, or a DOC writer, or whatever, by using the
Shadow -> Palm clip coverter.

	Useful?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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2045

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 0:16pm
Subject: Re: Multi-Project Flat View

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 ricardo131@y... wrote:

> A pop-up asking which outlines be included with an option to save the 
> resulting flat view would be my preferance.. What sorting and 
> filtering options will be available for the flat view ?

	Multi-file operations will likely come in the desktop application
and not in the palm application..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2046

From: jsroth@h...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 2:25pm
Subject: Links to Private Items

 
I have links in a Shadow list to memos marked as private.  When I try 
to access these memos through the link manager, I get an error 
stating that I "have attempted to go to an invalid record."  Shadow 
does transfer me to the memo application, at which point I click on 
the memo, enter the password, and view the document.  (BTW, I like 
the enabling of the application button on the silk screen to return 
to Shadow).  

This happens only when I have the security preference enabled to mask 
or hide records.  When the security option is turned off, the links 
to memos work fine.

Can there be a modification to prompt for the user's password and 
then display the selected item automatically?  It saves only a tap or 
two, but it would make it easier than remembering which masked record 
in the list I want to display at that time.


Jeff
2047

From: grumpstone@y...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:14pm
Subject: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
Jeff,

I'm settled in as a regular user, and I really, really like your 
program.  

I'm not sure how others use it, but I use Shadow to organize my 
life.  I have only a few areas of responsibility, but some of these 
are huge and complex (e.g., writing a dissertation).  Shadow helps me 
break these areas and projects up into bite-sized pieces.  These bite-
sized pieces become todo's or events in the built-in databeses.  I 
then sort the to-do's into context based categories (like home, work, 
errands, calls, computer, etc.).  Kind of like the GTD system, but 
more organized on the higer levels.  

I also use (and like) To-Do+ because of the way it lets me sort and 
view the to-do list I've created.  However, I think that Shadow can 
do the same thing *better* using filters and highlighting, with a 
lil' tweaking.  Here is my $.03:

1) Shadow's filters and highlights have a lot of potential 
and "upside," if you know what I mean (if not, they're good but could 
be better).  Shadow would work much better for me if it had some To-
Do Plus-like filters, especially: "Radar" (target = overdue, 
due in next 7 days, or no due date); "Due" (target = overdue or 
today); "This week" (overdue or due this week, but not undated).  
Currently, there is not analogue for "Radar" in Shadow, but it 
doesn't seem that complicated.  Shadow already has "today's targets" 
and "this week's targets," but unfortunately these filter out overdue 
items, many of which *really* need to be done today or this week.  
Shadow also has a "current/past targets," filter, but it does not 
filter out items with no date, which also defeats the purpose, 
methinks.  [Bonsai has an option that allows the user to sort "no 
date" items to the end of the list.  This would help solve the 
problem if checking the option also filtered the no dates from 
the "due" lists, and it would improve date-sorting.]

2) I also wonder if it would be possible to include a filter that 
displays only items that are linked to the built-in databases (in 
addition to the above filters).  This would be really cool, as a user 
could view an outline for planning, and view only tasks/events for 
the "doing" part of life.  Voila, Shadow has just about taken over 
the ToDo list.

3)  I think that #1 and #2 are pretty much consistent with what you 
are already doing.  I might be the only one who wants this, but 
wouldn't it be great if, while viewing a list with filters #1 and #2, 
a nice person could press the app button (e.g., memo or todo) to 
cycle through the categories.  

That's all.  I've got to get back to the "doing" part of life.

Thanks for listening.
2048

From: opitz@s...
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: Dtbk4 Shadow interoperability

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Anthony Milonas" <tonyelit@s...> wrote:
> I would like to manualy set Dtbk4  event parameters and especialy 
the category  from ShadowPlan changing the Tagged Note Field directly 
using Pop! to select the category selection strings  
> I have encountered the following problem:
> if i set it from the desktop copying a string like 
"##@@B@@@@@@@@@@@@@@" and with a newline as last char, in the note 
field, the category B (category 2)  is set correctly. If i set it 
copying the exact same string to the datebook stub application, 
copying the exact same string and then goto DTBK4,  the category is 
not set eventhough i see the particular event with the default icon 
for the category B.

Check the archives of the Pimlico forum. CESD has said that, because 
some conduits trash appointment categories, DateBk4 scans and resets 
the categories after a hotsync. So something from the desktop will get 
"fixed" when it gets to the Palm, but something inserted on the Palm 
by another app will not until you do a hotsync.

Bob
2049

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> I guess one of the problems I'm having here is that the 
> top-level register (display of all files) is slow on my m505.
> Starting up Shadow when the app isn't open to a specific file
> takes 3.5 secs with no hacks running. When Shadow is viewing
> a file, though, startup is less than a second.
> 
> I suppose that Shadow does a full search of the memory 
> for the ShadP- files each time it goes to the top-level register.
> For me, Shadow would be an even better experience if this 
> info could be cached in some way... For instance, when I
> run MSMount (no Shadow files are mounted on the card, 
> MSMount is just active), the startup time with no hacks goes up to
> 4.5secs (this happens whether Shadow is included in the MSMount
> disable list or not). Also, the link manager window seems to 
> have a similar time delay that suggests that it's looking for
> the list of possible shadow file links, too...?

	You're exactly right (and observant ;). I don't cache the file
listing in memory (deemed it wasteful), though I've been thinking about it
for awhile now. Caching it to a file doesn't seem like a good idea, since
you can beam things around and upload lists and the conduit can do various
tricks.. so it'd be rought okeep sensible. But caching after the first
load could be an option. Though, if you have 100 lists, with each being
about 30 bytes of info, you're blowing away 3k of runtime RAM .. thats a
fair amount in palm land. Course, I coudl stick it away into permanent
file area, and delete it on exit...

	*shrug*

	I'll be thinking about it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2050

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> Actually, this is how I feel about the disappearing "Custom" box....
> 
> OOps... Wrong kind of innovation, right... :)

	Darn, ebign outsmarted again ;)

	I found Custom to just to just be too scary for newbies; so there
again, Expert mode and Basic Mode, or two program versions with different
feature sets.  Hmm.....

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2051

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., kevinprice@u... wrote:
> > I've wished tapping the link arrow would take me directly to the
> linked item as well, but on the other hand, if that were the case
> would we lose the pop-up of other links if there are more than one?
> 
> In DB4, tapping on the link icon follows the link if it's
> a single link, but if there is more than one link, it 
> brings up a link popup much the same as the popup that
> Shadow currently produces. A possible modelt to follow.

	As described before, I dislike this approach. Changing the UI
behaviour on an item by item basis causes much confusion to the user, and
also removes functionality -- how do you cancel the jump?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2052

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Dash wrote:

> One of the nice things about Life Balance (although I found it 
> cumbersome, overall) and some database programs like HandyShopper is 
> the ability to have an item appear in more than one list.  Such an 
> ability in ShadowPlan would definitely be a killer addition.  Would 
> it be possible to impliment the internal record links with an option 
> like a todo link where the item appears in both (or more!) lists and 
> checking it in one list also checks it in the other?

	This is on my todo list, for "soonish", but not "real soon". Its a
little complex to get right, and my implementation may not be fully what
you'll want, but it'll be very close and still fast. The limitation will
be that the original item will not know who links to it, but the
copy-items will know who their original is.

> I know that this would be awesome for those who want to organize 
> around a concept of lists for potential action under different 
> circumstances or in different locations.  Jeff posted a sort 
> of "hello" note on the GtD_Palm discussion board earlier and such a 
> linking ability would definitely excite the "Getting Things Done" 
> crowd (note that the moderator of that group is also a member of this 
> one).

	Joe's a good boy. We like him :)

	Hmmm. I really like the link to other lists schtuff. The harder
part of it is how to UI-it.. how to establish the link? Show all the items
in the receivign list, in a scroll window, so you can go up and down and
then pick the item to put it under? Or just have it pushed onto the top of
the list? (that'd be my preference.. push items to the top of thelist
makes them easy to find and move later..)

	What do you think?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2053

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Links to Private Items

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 jsroth@h... wrote:

> Can there be a modification to prompt for the user's password and 
> then display the selected item automatically?  It saves only a tap or 
> two, but it would make it easier than remembering which masked record 
> in the list I want to display at that time.

	I guess thats a bigger question; linking to protected
records. Should it be allowed, allowed only when protection is emoved, or
what? Should Shadow ask for your password before attempting to go to the
link, or shoudl the receiving program do the dirty work?

	Thee is a lot of cleanup to be done to properly handle protected
records I think. I'll put this as something to worry about..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2054

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:39pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 grumpstone@y... wrote:

> 1) Shadow's filters and highlights have a lot of potential 
> and "upside," if you know what I mean (if not, they're good but could 
> be better).  Shadow would work much better for me if it had some To-
> Do Plus-like filters, especially: "Radar" (target = overdue, 

	I'll be adding customizable filters, so you can build them the way
you want. However, thats a ways off. The next release will have a
"Radar" filter in it :) (alpha coming soon)

> methinks.  [Bonsai has an option that allows the user to sort "no 
> date" items to the end of the list.  This would help solve the 
> problem if checking the option also filtered the no dates from 
> the "due" lists, and it would improve date-sorting.]

	I've been thinking about this.

	A vote.. do people like controlling where undated items sort to?

> 2) I also wonder if it would be possible to include a filter that 
> displays only items that are linked to the built-in databases (in 
> addition to the above filters).  This would be really cool, as a user 
> could view an outline for planning, and view only tasks/events for 
> the "doing" part of life.  Voila, Shadow has just about taken over 
> the ToDo list.

	The next release (join shadow-test if you want the early alpha
:) will have filters for selecting items with Links or without Links. A
link is todo, or datebook, or "assorted links" (memo, address, eventually
DOc, etc).

> 3)  I think that #1 and #2 are pretty much consistent with what you 
> are already doing.  I might be the only one who wants this, but 
> wouldn't it be great if, while viewing a list with filters #1 and #2, 
> a nice person could press the app button (e.g., memo or todo) to 
> cycle through the categories.  

	Inside of a list, there are no categories (yet). Hence, now,
pushing the hardkey that has Shadow attached will pop up the list of
recent files.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2055

From: Glen Engel-Cox  <GEngelCox@A...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:41pm
Subject: Question: Locking Items

 
I'm a new user, and I have to admit I'm the kind that just jumps right in and works in something without always having the right background.

I'm looking for the ability to "lock" items so that I don't accidentally change them.  For example, I have a bunch of children, some of which are checked and others which aren't.  I want to make sure these are locked, because I'm trying to capture that this is what occurred on this day.  But I know, sure as sin, that I will someday check the parent box, and that's immediately going to mark the check box for all the children.  Ouch.

Is there a way to do this in ShadowPlan?

glen


-------
Glen Engel-Cox
GEngelCox@a...
Online Community Coordinator
American Speech-Language-Hearing Association
(301) 897-5700 ext. 4311
2056

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Question: Locking Items

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Glen Engel-Cox wrote:

> I'm looking for the ability to "lock" items so that I don't
> accidentally change them.  For example, I have a bunch of children,
> some of which are checked and others which aren't.  I want to make
> sure these are locked, because I'm trying to capture that this is what
> occurred on this day.  But I know, sure as sin, that I will someday
> check the parent box, and that's immediately going to mark the check
> box for all the children.  Ouch.

	You can go to List, Prefs, Options, and set "autocheck" to
off. Then no cascading will occur.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2057

From: Manfred Ell  <manfredell@y...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
On 29-08-2001 at 09:39:48 (GMT -0400 (EDT)) (which was 14:39 where I live)
Jeff Mitchell wrote regarding the subject of " Filter and highlight suggestions"
Using: N/A

Hello Jeff,

>         A vote.. do people like controlling where undated items sort
> to?

Always at the end, please!!!

Regards

-- 
Manfred
___________________________________________________________________________
[ TheBat 1.53o (FE1905D5), Windows 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2 ]
2058

From: smasters@a...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
Jeff asked: A vote.. do people like controlling where undated items sort
to?

I wouldn't mind a list preference or something similar for this.

Scott
2059

From: Manfred Ell  <manfredell@y...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:58pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
On 29-08-2001 at 09:39:48 (GMT -0400 (EDT)) (which was 14:39 where I live)
Jeff Mitchell wrote regarding the subject of " Filter and highlight suggestions"
Using: N/A

Hello Jeff,

> join shadow-test 

how?

Regards

-- 
Manfred
___________________________________________________________________________
[ TheBat 1.53o (FE1905D5), Windows 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2 ]
2060

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 2:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Manfred Ell wrote:

> On 29-08-2001 at 09:39:48 (GMT -0400 (EDT)) (which was 14:39 where I live)
> Jeff Mitchell wrote regarding the subject of " Filter and highlight suggestions"
> Using: N/A
> 
> Hello Jeff,
> 
> > join shadow-test 
> 
> how?

	Shadow-test is for early alphas and betas; releases can be
dangerous. But you also get the goods weeks or month sin advance of
everyone else. So be warey. Also .. the trick is.. You can only join, if
you know how to find it on my website. ITs not hard to find, but its the
entrance requirement :)

	So go to http://www.codejedi.com, and find the mailing lists...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2061

From: Rick Blaiklock  <rblaiklock@h...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 2:40pm
Subject: Linking inside a file

 
Jeff,

My $.02 to add to the linking debates.

Recognizing it probably requires a major overhaul of the file structure, I'd 
love to see linking within a file so that an item can appear in more than 
one place simultaneously.

A _long_ time ago I used a DOS program (I can't even remember the name) that 
had a feature that allowed you to 'clone' at item such that the master and 
the clone were identical.
Because the clone was an item, it could however, be moved around, promoted, 
etc. The only thing you couldn't do was put the clone under the master or 
vice versa.
Any and all changes to one were immediately reflected in the other, thus an 
item appeared in multiple places at the same time.

Not sure if it's possible, but I'd love it.

...Rick


----------------------
Rick Blaiklock
rblaiklock@h...


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
2062

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 2:51pm
Subject: Re: Linking inside a file

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rick Blaiklock wrote:

> Recognizing it probably requires a major overhaul of the file
> structure, I'd love to see linking within a file so that an item can
> appear in more than one place simultaneously.

	Not a major overhaul; I allowed for it 6 months ago ;) Its just a
fair amount of work to build it in, and I'm focusing on the desktop.

	ie:

	1) UI; you go to LM, hit a button for linking Item to Item, then
pick a list (could be same list? that could be rough to work out :P). Item
appears at top of that list, when you open it.
	2) On opening a list with a clone-item, the item is compared to
its master record and changes imported.
	3) On closing a list with a clone-item, the item changes are sent
to the parent.
	4) The cloned item will have a link arrow, to jump to the original
master.
	5) The master item will not know it has clones. Or maybe it will
know, but it definitely will not know where they are. So the master cannot
jump to children (could be any number of them, all over the durned place),
and the children *can* jump to the master.

	The harder part is the GUI; I dont' think I want to build, yet, a
way to browse hierarchically another list, while inside a list. Too much
memory, etc. But pushing the linked out item to the top of the other list
is easy, and when you open it, you could move it somewhere. I could even
set the bold flag on it, so you know its somethign to be dealt
with. Moving it so ome child in the list, from the first list at creation
time.. thats work in the GUI I don't have time for..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2063

From: grumpstone@y...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 5:02pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	A vote.. do people like controlling where undated items sort 
to?


Yes.  Unless they sort to the end of the list by default.
2064

From: grumpstone@y...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
 
> 	Shadow-test is for early alphas and betas; releases can be
> dangerous. But you also get the goods weeks or month sin advance of
> everyone else. So be warey. Also .. the trick is.. You can only 
join, if
> you know how to find it on my website. ITs not hard to find, but 
its the
> entrance requirement :)


Jeff, 

What do you mean when you say "releases can be dangerous."  Dangerous 
like ebola?  Loss of data?  System crashes and hard resets?  Or more 
benign stuff like hangups and soft resets?

Just wonderin'.
2065

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 5:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 grumpstone@y... wrote:

> What do you mean when you say "releases can be dangerous."  Dangerous 
> like ebola?  Loss of data?  System crashes and hard resets?  Or more 
> benign stuff like hangups and soft resets?

	Definitions for non-programmahs:

Releases -- like in shadow-discuss, palmgear, handango, etc, are solid and
made for everyones consumption, having been tested by hundreds of people
already, for some period of time.

Alpha is usually defined as the programmer has written the code and done
basic testing to ensure it works. But being only one set of tests, it can
quite likely have bugs in it, depending on the nature of the changes. On a
Palm, one crash generally causes you to do a soft-reset, meaning data
changed since last save is lost... (Shadow lossage only)

Beta is a test that has gone through alpha testers, so early adopters have
had their way with it and decided that its good -- no bugs, or few and
small so they didn't see them. Betas are pretty safe, since a pile of
people have been using the alpha for awhile already. A good solid beta,
thats been in beta in shadow-test for awhile, I let out to shadow-discuss
sometimes since they can be very juicy.

	As such, you join shadow-test at your own risk -- download posted
betas and you needn't worry much. Download alphas, and its up in the air.
99% of the time, they're fine. But once in awhile (and I'll warn everyone
first!) one can come out that coudl ruin your shadow data. (ie: When you
get an alpha that I mark as dangerous, you shoudl try it out on new lists
before trying it out on your important data!)

	Generally, you needn't worry. My track record is very good. But if
your'e using an alpha and it blows up.......

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2066

From: Giuseppe Chillemi  <chillemi@b...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Feature Request: Colored Project names; and a question.

 
It would be good to have the opportunity to set the color of the project
names.  This would be usefull to visually identify certain kind of projects
inside a category.
 It shouldn't be difficult Jeff !

Question:  (FAQ?) Why setting a linked appointment as "done" inside date4bk
does not set the corresponding end date in Shadow ?

--

 Ciao,
   Giuseppe Chillemi
   e-mail: chillemi@b...
2067

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Feature Request: Colored Project names; and a question.

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Giuseppe Chillemi wrote:

> Question:  (FAQ?) Why setting a linked appointment as "done" inside date4bk
> does not set the corresponding end date in Shadow ?

	Should probably go in the FAQ..

	When you link to the datebook, you are linking over by target
date. The datebooks only have one date, where Shadow has 3. So we link by
target date.

	It has been bounced around to import the changed date into
Shadow's finish-date, if the item is checked.. but that could lead to
problems perhaps..

	Really, its a limit of the datebook programs.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2068

From: kate_mahoney@y...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 6:31pm
Subject: Re: Improving usability

 
I too would like to see it easier to get at the list preferences, as 
I find the best format is something I change my mind on as the list 
grows, and I tend to start with a simple list and just bang out stuff 
quickly.

Another thing that would be great for usability would making it 
easier to get at the memo edit screen.  A LOOOOng time ago, people 
suggested that either double tapping, or tap-and-hold on the memo 
text would take you to the editor.  I'd really like to see one of 
those.  I know you have a flag to turn the memo icon into summoning 
the editor, but then you lose the rather nice ability to expand the 
memeo for a peek at it, which is on of shadows nice features.

One final thing I've observed that when I sort in ascending order by 
date, shadow places undated items befoer the dated ones, whereas I'd 
really like to see them placed last.  Usually the reason they have no 
date is because they are far enough in the future that I don't yet 
know their date, so I don't want them topping the list.

Thanks,

Kate
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 samir.kasme@s... wrote:
> 
>>Agreed on that, Jeff. But it reminds of something I've always found 
>>annoying: to get to List/Preferences you have no Shortcut, why? I 
>>happen to go to List/Preferences quite often, am I the only one? Be 
>>it to change the custom settings, check the list options, change 
>>the 
>>auto-numbering or whatever. This would deserve a shortcut or even a 
>>button IMO (there is still room for a small button on the last 
>>line ;-
 
>Never had a request for it, and I don't envision people going to
>it too often. ie: I never do. I set the options once, and I'm done :P
>Also, a shotcut is two taps/swipes. The list prefs is at most 3 
>(menu or
>title, then list, then prefs). So its not that bad relative to 
>shortcut ;)
> 
> 		jeff
2069

From: smasters@a...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: Gear Choice and Essential

 
Jeff,

Did I miss something? ShadowPlan 1.5.14 is now listed as 
an "Essential" and "Gear's Choice" on Palmgear.com. I emailed them 
after the PalmPower listing, so I'll take just a little credit, but 
it's good to see you getting some long overdue recognition. 
Congratulations!!!

Scott
2070

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:08pm
Subject: Re: Gear Choice and Essential

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 smasters@a... wrote:

> Did I miss something? ShadowPlan 1.5.14 is now listed as 
> an "Essential" and "Gear's Choice" on Palmgear.com. I emailed them 
> after the PalmPower listing, so I'll take just a little credit, but 
> it's good to see you getting some long overdue recognition. 
> Congratulations!!!

	Looks like Shadow is currently #8 on the Essentials page (high
praise indeed!), but I dont' see it on Gears Choice (though we've been
Gear's Choice for about 6 months now?) Strange :P

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2071

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Gear Choice and Essential

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 smasters@a... wrote:

> Did I miss something? ShadowPlan 1.5.14 is now listed as 
> an "Essential" and "Gear's Choice" on Palmgear.com. I emailed them 
> after the PalmPower listing, so I'll take just a little credit, but 
> it's good to see you getting some long overdue recognition. 
> Congratulations!!!

	Thanks! :)

	Shadow was actually a Gears choice/Essentials awhile back, but
their system was weird and it only showed in the product details and not
on the main list. I'll go take a peek right away :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2072

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:17pm
Subject: Re: Links to Private Items

 
> 	I guess thats a bigger question; linking to protected
> records. Should it be allowed, allowed only when protection is
> emoved, or what?

I don't think that's the right way to approach this problem because 
even if you don't allow linking to protected records, what if you 
link to an unprotected record and then protect it later? Would Shadow 
then sever the link?

Roy.
2073

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links to Private Items

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > 	I guess thats a bigger question; linking to protected
> > records. Should it be allowed, allowed only when protection is
> > emoved, or what?
> 
> I don't think that's the right way to approach this problem because 
> even if you don't allow linking to protected records, what if you 
> link to an unprotected record and then protect it later? Would Shadow 
> then sever the link?

	I think we'll have to go about it thusly..

	Can only see protected items in LM when they are revealed. Thus,
you can only establish links to revealed or unprotected objects.

	Attempting to goto a link should have to check, and if protected
and hidden, issue a warning saying you cannot make the jump until you
enter your password. If I'm being smarty, I'll have to pop up a password
entry box.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2074

From: grumpstone@y...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 11:28pm
Subject: Re: Filter and highlight suggestions

 
I checked through the postings and get the idea.

Thanks!  I think I'll join up and play along.
2075

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 0:44am
Subject: Sync preferences

 
This is a long email; I sent it to shadow-desktop, but just to get
everyones opinion, I'll repost here. Let me know ASAP your thoughts..

	It is inevitabler that someone will change a record on their
desktop and also on the handheld, and that the changes will be different
and incompatible.

	Consider that you could make the same change on both sides and
even just misspell on one. Or consider moving an item on both sides, and
totally editting them on both sides. Two ends of the spectrum here...

	What to do in each of these circumstances:

	1) Record editted on both desktop and handheld

	I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and would
be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile of
matchups.

	In all cases, I would recommend data clobbery. Palm suggests than
when a record is modified on both sides, that you copy the record to the
other unit.. so the desktop item gets copied to the handheld, and vice
versa. You end up with both records on both sides. I don't think this is a
good idea...

	Or is it? There is no data loss this way.. just data
annoyance. But at least theres no loss. Is this the correct way to resolve
such a thing?

	If we have no clobbery, instead, data duplication when the user
edits on both sides, we end up with a "directionless sync", which makes me
happy. It means Ican write code that looks for changes, copies them to the
other side, or in the case of two changes, just doubles up the
data. Easy. Thus we have two options for sync:

	i) Syncronize (doubling data when in question)
	ii) Do Nothing.

	If we like clobbery, than we have a directionfull syncronization.
That means that you must pick either "Sync, Desktop Overrides Palm in
Question", or the reverse, "Sync, Palm overrides Desktop in
Question". This gives us these three sync configuration options:

	i) Do Nothing
	ii) Syncronize (PC overrides HandHeld in Conflict)
	iii) Syncronize (Handheld overrides PC in Conflict)

	Which is preferred?

	2) Record moved to different locations on both desktop and
handheld:

	Do we "duplicate the data" as above, or "clobber"? If we duplicate
the move, we end up with a duplicate item in 2 places in the list. They
are nolonger related. These seems like a bad idea.. totally blow away your
organization.

	Clobber. We chose one move to stick with. Suddently, its
directionfull again. Damn. I'd rather go directionfull, or directionless,
for both?

	I can try and keep a timestamp, so we know when the move occured,
and then just use the most-recent of the moves as source of truth. This
sort of pains me, but I think it might be most reasonable, since we can
then preserve the directionless bent I'm trying to push on you ;)

	3) The tough one; Shadow can tell a record has been editted by it
having a "dirty" or "changed flag" on it. So if the desktop record is
changed, and the handheld one is not, we know the user played with the
desktop one and we can clobber the handheld data without losing
anything. Perfect.

	But then you go and sync at home (so everything is up to date, and
the dirty flags are all gone and cleared), and then you sync at work after
changing some stuff on the handheld. Suddenly, we have records which are
changed on the handheld and on the desktop, and some on the handheld that
are "not changed" (no dirty flag), but are *different* than items on the
desktop which may or may not be dirty. What a mess!

	Again..

	Directionfull: One side clobbers the other. Data loss could ensue.

	Directionless: We look at records, see that they are *different*,
with no idea of which was changed. We *duplicate* the data, which is to
say, load the desktop record onto the handheld, and the handheld record
onto the desktop? Or go for direction oriented and clobber one side?

	Preference?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2076

From: Rob Olian  <egroup@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:09am
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
I'd prefer "data doubling"--particularly if the hotsync log points out that
it has occurred--unless somebody is making a lot of changes, it is no big
deal to  go back and delete one of the doubled entries, which then removes
itself from the other machine at the next sync. Much better than losing data
to my mind.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 7:45 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences



	This is a long email; I sent it to shadow-desktop, but just to get
everyones opinion, I'll repost here. Let me know ASAP your thoughts..

	It is inevitabler that someone will change a record on their
desktop and also on the handheld, and that the changes will be different
and incompatible.

	Consider that you could make the same change on both sides and
even just misspell on one. Or consider moving an item on both sides, and
totally editting them on both sides. Two ends of the spectrum here...

	What to do in each of these circumstances:

	1) Record editted on both desktop and handheld

	I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and would
be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile of
matchups.

	In all cases, I would recommend data clobbery. Palm suggests than
when a record is modified on both sides, that you copy the record to the
other unit.. so the desktop item gets copied to the handheld, and vice
versa. You end up with both records on both sides. I don't think this is a
good idea...

	Or is it? There is no data loss this way.. just data
annoyance. But at least theres no loss. Is this the correct way to resolve
such a thing?

	If we have no clobbery, instead, data duplication when the user
edits on both sides, we end up with a "directionless sync", which makes me
happy. It means Ican write code that looks for changes, copies them to the
other side, or in the case of two changes, just doubles up the
data. Easy. Thus we have two options for sync:

	i) Syncronize (doubling data when in question)
	ii) Do Nothing.

	If we like clobbery, than we have a directionfull syncronization.
That means that you must pick either "Sync, Desktop Overrides Palm in
Question", or the reverse, "Sync, Palm overrides Desktop in
Question". This gives us these three sync configuration options:

	i) Do Nothing
	ii) Syncronize (PC overrides HandHeld in Conflict)
	iii) Syncronize (Handheld overrides PC in Conflict)

	Which is preferred?

	2) Record moved to different locations on both desktop and
handheld:

	Do we "duplicate the data" as above, or "clobber"? If we duplicate
the move, we end up with a duplicate item in 2 places in the list. They
are nolonger related. These seems like a bad idea.. totally blow away your
organization.

	Clobber. We chose one move to stick with. Suddently, its
directionfull again. Damn. I'd rather go directionfull, or directionless,
for both?

	I can try and keep a timestamp, so we know when the move occured,
and then just use the most-recent of the moves as source of truth. This
sort of pains me, but I think it might be most reasonable, since we can
then preserve the directionless bent I'm trying to push on you ;)

	3) The tough one; Shadow can tell a record has been editted by it
having a "dirty" or "changed flag" on it. So if the desktop record is
changed, and the handheld one is not, we know the user played with the
desktop one and we can clobber the handheld data without losing
anything. Perfect.

	But then you go and sync at home (so everything is up to date, and
the dirty flags are all gone and cleared), and then you sync at work after
changing some stuff on the handheld. Suddenly, we have records which are
changed on the handheld and on the desktop, and some on the handheld that
are "not changed" (no dirty flag), but are *different* than items on the
desktop which may or may not be dirty. What a mess!

	Again..

	Directionfull: One side clobbers the other. Data loss could ensue.

	Directionless: We look at records, see that they are *different*,
with no idea of which was changed. We *duplicate* the data, which is to
say, load the desktop record onto the handheld, and the handheld record
onto the desktop? Or go for direction oriented and clobber one side?

	Preference?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



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2077

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:21am
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rob Olian wrote:

> I'd prefer "data doubling"--particularly if the hotsync log points out that
> it has occurred--unless somebody is making a lot of changes, it is no big
> deal to  go back and delete one of the doubled entries, which then removes
> itself from the other machine at the next sync. Much better than losing data
> to my mind.

	An idea myself and a friend just had... a "SNAFU" indicator, to
tell you "something weird happened".

	So you modify the record on PC, and on the Handheld. Then you hit
sync.

	When you load the list, you get a SNAFU alert. You can use a
SNAFU-filter to show only SNAFU'd items. SNAFU'd items would also have a
little icon showing where the link arrow woudl normally be (say). Lastly,
a SNAFU-clear function to remove the SNAFU indicators.

	This way you could see that something has happened, and resolve
the conflicts *after the sync*, or ignore them by tapping the "wipe
SNAFU's" button.

	Hmm.

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2078

From: ricardo131@y...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:26am
Subject: Re: Sync preferences

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

>I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and 
would
be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile 
of
matchups.>


for the few matchups that I run across I like the agree/disagree 
query that I get when have mismatched data...
duped records can be confusing..I've had problems with these using 
some sync software.. I deleted a dupe and after the next sync both 
records were deleted..data loss..a nightmare..your idea of identifying
what has been duped might solve that..the important thing, and I 
think you covered that in your e-mail is not to lose data..personally 
I am open to any solution that ensures that, at least, the original 
data will not be lost.. and that the new data will be preserved until 
a decision is made about it..
2079

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:41am
Subject: Re: Re: Sync preferences

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 ricardo131@y... wrote:

> duped records can be confusing..I've had problems with these using 
> some sync software.. I deleted a dupe and after the next sync both 
> records were deleted..data loss..a nightmare..your idea of identifying
> what has been duped might solve that..the important thing, and I 
> think you covered that in your e-mail is not to lose data..personally 
> I am open to any solution that ensures that, at least, the original 
> data will not be lost.. and that the new data will be preserved until 
> a decision is made about it..

	So you would prefer a data duplicator to a clobberer. The trick is
to do it at the right times, and I think make it easy to identify and find
duplicated data. Hmmm...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2080

From: ricardo131@y...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:40am
Subject: Re: Sync preferences

 
> 
> 	So you would prefer a data duplicator to a clobberer. 

I don't like the clobberer idea simply because if I enter data on the 
Palm in a record, and then enter other data on the PC side in the 
same record..the clobber means some data is going to get lost when I 
sync..

The trick is
> to do it at the right times, and I think make it easy to identify 
and find
> duplicated data. Hmmm...
> 
> 		jeff

Yes, right on, I think I would much rather see a dupe record that is 
identified as a `copy of` or some other sort of id, so that a 
decision could be made as to what info should be integrated into the 
original
before deleting the dupe..
   this whole issue must be a difficult one ; there are some expensive
sync programs that, judging from the reviews, are not very 
satisfactory in this regard, 
because (in my experience, and the experience of others, recieved via 
other Palm usergroups) deleting the dupes occasionally caused both 
the dupe AND the original to be deleted upon sync, I gave up on sync 
programs and went back to the plain vanilla Palm Desktop for awhile,
   as of recent I am cautiously experimenting again with sync 
software,
Interestingly, one that I am trying has a popup during the actual 
sync to ask the user permission to resolve matchups...hasn't done any 
major resolutions except properly configure phone no. data so far..
so I don't know if this idea is of use to you..
Best Regards
2081

From: ricardo131@y...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:26am
Subject: Re: Sync preferences

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., ricardo131@y... wrote:
 P.S.  In the post below, I am assuming that deleting the dupe would 
be safer than deleting the original (after data integration decisions 
and changes have been made).



> 
> > 
> > 	So you would prefer a data duplicator to a clobberer. 
> 
> I don't like the clobberer idea simply because if I enter data on 
the 
> Palm in a record, and then enter other data on the PC side in the 
> same record..the clobber means some data is going to get lost when 
I 
> sync..
> 
> The trick is
> > to do it at the right times, and I think make it easy to identify 
> and find
> > duplicated data. Hmmm...
> > 
> > 		jeff
> 
> Yes, right on, I think I would much rather see a dupe record that 
is 
> identified as a `copy of` or some other sort of id, so that a 
> decision could be made as to what info should be integrated into 
the 
> original
> before deleting the dupe..
>    this whole issue must be a difficult one ; there are some 
expensive
> sync programs that, judging from the reviews, are not very 
> satisfactory in this regard, 
> because (in my experience, and the experience of others, recieved 
via 
> other Palm usergroups) deleting the dupes occasionally caused both 
> the dupe AND the original to be deleted upon sync, I gave up on 
sync 
> programs and went back to the plain vanilla Palm Desktop for awhile,
>    as of recent I am cautiously experimenting again with sync 
> software,
> Interestingly, one that I am trying has a popup during the actual 
> sync to ask the user permission to resolve matchups...hasn't done 
any 
> major resolutions except properly configure phone no. data so far..
> so I don't know if this idea is of use to you..
> Best Regards
2082

From: Neal Cordle  <ncordle@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:04am
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
Directionless works for me, however, I only sync 1 Palm to 1 Desktop, data duplication is a "rare" occurrence for me.  When it
does occur, a note to Sync log tells me where it happened....

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:45 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences



	This is a long email; I sent it to shadow-desktop, but just to get
everyones opinion, I'll repost here. Let me know ASAP your thoughts..

	It is inevitabler that someone will change a record on their
desktop and also on the handheld, and that the changes will be different
and incompatible.

	Consider that you could make the same change on both sides and
even just misspell on one. Or consider moving an item on both sides, and
totally editting them on both sides. Two ends of the spectrum here...

	What to do in each of these circumstances:

	1) Record editted on both desktop and handheld

	I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and would
be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile of
matchups.

	In all cases, I would recommend data clobbery. Palm suggests than
when a record is modified on both sides, that you copy the record to the
other unit.. so the desktop item gets copied to the handheld, and vice
versa. You end up with both records on both sides. I don't think this is a
good idea...

	Or is it? There is no data loss this way.. just data
annoyance. But at least theres no loss. Is this the correct way to resolve
such a thing?

	If we have no clobbery, instead, data duplication when the user
edits on both sides, we end up with a "directionless sync", which makes me
happy. It means Ican write code that looks for changes, copies them to the
other side, or in the case of two changes, just doubles up the
data. Easy. Thus we have two options for sync:

	i) Syncronize (doubling data when in question)
	ii) Do Nothing.

	If we like clobbery, than we have a directionfull syncronization.
That means that you must pick either "Sync, Desktop Overrides Palm in
Question", or the reverse, "Sync, Palm overrides Desktop in
Question". This gives us these three sync configuration options:

	i) Do Nothing
	ii) Syncronize (PC overrides HandHeld in Conflict)
	iii) Syncronize (Handheld overrides PC in Conflict)

	Which is preferred?

	2) Record moved to different locations on both desktop and
handheld:

	Do we "duplicate the data" as above, or "clobber"? If we duplicate
the move, we end up with a duplicate item in 2 places in the list. They
are nolonger related. These seems like a bad idea.. totally blow away your
organization.

	Clobber. We chose one move to stick with. Suddently, its
directionfull again. Damn. I'd rather go directionfull, or directionless,
for both?

	I can try and keep a timestamp, so we know when the move occured,
and then just use the most-recent of the moves as source of truth. This
sort of pains me, but I think it might be most reasonable, since we can
then preserve the directionless bent I'm trying to push on you ;)

	3) The tough one; Shadow can tell a record has been editted by it
having a "dirty" or "changed flag" on it. So if the desktop record is
changed, and the handheld one is not, we know the user played with the
desktop one and we can clobber the handheld data without losing
anything. Perfect.

	But then you go and sync at home (so everything is up to date, and
the dirty flags are all gone and cleared), and then you sync at work after
changing some stuff on the handheld. Suddenly, we have records which are
changed on the handheld and on the desktop, and some on the handheld that
are "not changed" (no dirty flag), but are *different* than items on the
desktop which may or may not be dirty. What a mess!

	Again..

	Directionfull: One side clobbers the other. Data loss could ensue.

	Directionless: We look at records, see that they are *different*,
with no idea of which was changed. We *duplicate* the data, which is to
say, load the desktop record onto the handheld, and the handheld record
onto the desktop? Or go for direction oriented and clobber one side?

	Preference?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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2083

From: ianf@f...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:58am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Dash wrote:
> 
> > One of the nice things about Life Balance (although I found it 
> > cumbersome, overall) and some database programs like HandyShopper
is 
> > the ability to have an item appear in more than one list.  
> 
> 	This is on my todo list, for "soonish", but not "real soon". 

I'd vote for this one too. Whassat? No vote called? 

OK, in the actual vote for undated at the bottom, I vote yes.

And for another idea to add to the pot: any chance of a
filter to display only items that have a specific text
string? (Don't mind whether the string has to be in the item 
name itself or if Shadow will actually look in attahced notes).

Thanks much,

	 - Ian.
2084

From: jurigararin@y...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:29am
Subject: Re: Links and files

 
What's wrong with it? Tapping on the link arrow takes you to the 
linked item, if there are more than one it asks you which one you 
want to go to. That's not confusing at all. (E.g. if you are thirsty 
and I only have Coke in the fridge I'll give you a can of Coke. If I 
have Coke, Fanta and Sprite I'd ask you what you want. Sounds 
logical, doesn't it? ;-))
Rgds,
    Christian
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:
> 
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., kevinprice@u... wrote:
> > > I've wished tapping the link arrow would take me directly to the
> > linked item as well, but on the other hand, if that were the case
> > would we lose the pop-up of other links if there are more than 
one?
> > 
> > In DB4, tapping on the link icon follows the link if it's
> > a single link, but if there is more than one link, it 
> > brings up a link popup much the same as the popup that
> > Shadow currently produces. A possible modelt to follow.
> 
> 	As described before, I dislike this approach. Changing the UI
> behaviour on an item by item basis causes much confusion to the 
user, and
> also removes functionality -- how do you cancel the jump?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2085

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 11:57am
Subject: Re: Re: Sync preferences

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 ricardo131@y... wrote:

> Yes, right on, I think I would much rather see a dupe record that is 
> identified as a `copy of` or some other sort of id, so that a 
> decision could be made as to what info should be integrated into the 
> original
> before deleting the dupe..

	yeah. Fair enough. Asking the user is the "best" for the app, but
not possible. Second best must be leaving it to the user later.

>    this whole issue must be a difficult one ; there are some expensive
> sync programs that, judging from the reviews, are not very 
> satisfactory in this regard, 

	Very difficult to "get right" :/ I've been toying with it awhile
(desktop app isn't out yet.. this is why ;)

> because (in my experience, and the experience of others, recieved via 
> other Palm usergroups) deleting the dupes occasionally caused both 
> the dupe AND the original to be deleted upon sync, I gave up on sync 
> programs and went back to the plain vanilla Palm Desktop for awhile,

	This shouldn't happen. Sloppy work. ie: One desktop record is
linked to one handheld record.

> sync to ask the user permission to resolve matchups...hasn't done any 
> major resolutions except properly configure phone no. data so far..
> so I don't know if this idea is of use to you..

	Its against palm guidelines, and I think most people want to "just
sync", no questions asked. Also, I think its application specific, hence
why I asked. Its not a new problem, but I thought everyne should have
their licks :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2086

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 0:12pm
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Neal Cordle wrote:

> Directionless works for me, however, I only sync 1 Palm to 1 Desktop, data duplication is a "rare" occurrence for me.  When it
> does occur, a note to Sync log tells me where it happened....

	How many people read the sync log?

	I keep a verbose Shadow Log, useful for debugging. I'm thinking of
keeping also a less verbose "warning log", so if duplication occurs, it'll
just pop up on your screen at the end of the sync. *shrug*

	OKay, sounds like I'll work out the directionless side of things..

		jeff

> 
> Neal
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:45 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences
> 
> 
> 
> 	This is a long email; I sent it to shadow-desktop, but just to get
> everyones opinion, I'll repost here. Let me know ASAP your thoughts..
> 
> 	It is inevitabler that someone will change a record on their
> desktop and also on the handheld, and that the changes will be different
> and incompatible.
> 
> 	Consider that you could make the same change on both sides and
> even just misspell on one. Or consider moving an item on both sides, and
> totally editting them on both sides. Two ends of the spectrum here...
> 
> 	What to do in each of these circumstances:
> 
> 	1) Record editted on both desktop and handheld
> 
> 	I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
> interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and would
> be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile of
> matchups.
> 
> 	In all cases, I would recommend data clobbery. Palm suggests than
> when a record is modified on both sides, that you copy the record to the
> other unit.. so the desktop item gets copied to the handheld, and vice
> versa. You end up with both records on both sides. I don't think this is a
> good idea...
> 
> 	Or is it? There is no data loss this way.. just data
> annoyance. But at least theres no loss. Is this the correct way to resolve
> such a thing?
> 
> 	If we have no clobbery, instead, data duplication when the user
> edits on both sides, we end up with a "directionless sync", which makes me
> happy. It means Ican write code that looks for changes, copies them to the
> other side, or in the case of two changes, just doubles up the
> data. Easy. Thus we have two options for sync:
> 
> 	i) Syncronize (doubling data when in question)
> 	ii) Do Nothing.
> 
> 	If we like clobbery, than we have a directionfull syncronization.
> That means that you must pick either "Sync, Desktop Overrides Palm in
> Question", or the reverse, "Sync, Palm overrides Desktop in
> Question". This gives us these three sync configuration options:
> 
> 	i) Do Nothing
> 	ii) Syncronize (PC overrides HandHeld in Conflict)
> 	iii) Syncronize (Handheld overrides PC in Conflict)
> 
> 	Which is preferred?
> 
> 	2) Record moved to different locations on both desktop and
> handheld:
> 
> 	Do we "duplicate the data" as above, or "clobber"? If we duplicate
> the move, we end up with a duplicate item in 2 places in the list. They
> are nolonger related. These seems like a bad idea.. totally blow away your
> organization.
> 
> 	Clobber. We chose one move to stick with. Suddently, its
> directionfull again. Damn. I'd rather go directionfull, or directionless,
> for both?
> 
> 	I can try and keep a timestamp, so we know when the move occured,
> and then just use the most-recent of the moves as source of truth. This
> sort of pains me, but I think it might be most reasonable, since we can
> then preserve the directionless bent I'm trying to push on you ;)
> 
> 	3) The tough one; Shadow can tell a record has been editted by it
> having a "dirty" or "changed flag" on it. So if the desktop record is
> changed, and the handheld one is not, we know the user played with the
> desktop one and we can clobber the handheld data without losing
> anything. Perfect.
> 
> 	But then you go and sync at home (so everything is up to date, and
> the dirty flags are all gone and cleared), and then you sync at work after
> changing some stuff on the handheld. Suddenly, we have records which are
> changed on the handheld and on the desktop, and some on the handheld that
> are "not changed" (no dirty flag), but are *different* than items on the
> desktop which may or may not be dirty. What a mess!
> 
> 	Again..
> 
> 	Directionfull: One side clobbers the other. Data loss could ensue.
> 
> 	Directionless: We look at records, see that they are *different*,
> with no idea of which was changed. We *duplicate* the data, which is to
> say, load the desktop record onto the handheld, and the handheld record
> onto the desktop? Or go for direction oriented and clobber one side?
> 
> 	Preference?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2087

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 0:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 jurigararin@y... wrote:

> What's wrong with it? Tapping on the link arrow takes you to the 
> linked item, if there are more than one it asks you which one you 
> want to go to. That's not confusing at all. (E.g. if you are thirsty 
> and I only have Coke in the fridge I'll give you a can of Coke. If I 
> have Coke, Fanta and Sprite I'd ask you what you want. Sounds 
> logical, doesn't it? ;-))

	Not logical; pragmatic, sure, but not logical ;)

	You have to remember your newbie user.

	"Hey, wait a minute, it popped up a box on that one, but not on
this one? Forget it, this software is crap!"

	Consistency is always good.

	Also, you lose functionality.. what if you tap the link arrow by
mistake. The box comes up, you tap somewhere else to cancel. Whew! No
problems. If it automatically went, and you don't have the "goto/return"
feature activated or available, you've ll have to work back to Shadow, and
potentially break your train of thought. Consider that a lot of people use
the application on the move.. in the car, walking, whatever. Mistapping
can be frequent for some people.

	Cancelling is an important aspect of this..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2088

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 0:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 ianf@f... wrote:

> And for another idea to add to the pot: any chance of a
> filter to display only items that have a specific text
> string? (Don't mind whether the string has to be in the item 
> name itself or if Shadow will actually look in attahced notes).

	When I add custom filters, this sort of thing could be
present.. we'll have to see then, and request it if I forget it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2089

From: Neal Cordle  <ncordle@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:25pm
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
I use Chapura's PocketMirror to sync (white bread, I know, but it works for me!)  If there is data duplication, at the
conclusion of a Sync there is a pop up that reads to the effect "Sync complete with 2 messages.  Click to view Log."  I view the
log, and there is a list of "exceptions" which reads something like "item number 37543 - Item Text - changed on both Palm and
Desktop.  Item copied in both applications.  Delete unwanted item."

Normally, I don't look at the sync log, however, if it tells me it had an exception, I'm interested.  I'd guess that other sync
managers work the same, but since Pocket mirror is my only experience, thought I'd pass this along.

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:12 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences


On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Neal Cordle wrote:

> Directionless works for me, however, I only sync 1 Palm to 1 Desktop, data duplication is a "rare" occurrence for me.  When it
> does occur, a note to Sync log tells me where it happened....

	How many people read the sync log?

	I keep a verbose Shadow Log, useful for debugging. I'm thinking of
keeping also a less verbose "warning log", so if duplication occurs, it'll
just pop up on your screen at the end of the sync. *shrug*

	OKay, sounds like I'll work out the directionless side of things..

		jeff

>
> Neal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:45 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences
>
>
>
> 	This is a long email; I sent it to shadow-desktop, but just to get
> everyones opinion, I'll repost here. Let me know ASAP your thoughts..
>
> 	It is inevitabler that someone will change a record on their
> desktop and also on the handheld, and that the changes will be different
> and incompatible.
>
> 	Consider that you could make the same change on both sides and
> even just misspell on one. Or consider moving an item on both sides, and
> totally editting them on both sides. Two ends of the spectrum here...
>
> 	What to do in each of these circumstances:
>
> 	1) Record editted on both desktop and handheld
>
> 	I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
> interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and would
> be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile of
> matchups.
>
> 	In all cases, I would recommend data clobbery. Palm suggests than
> when a record is modified on both sides, that you copy the record to the
> other unit.. so the desktop item gets copied to the handheld, and vice
> versa. You end up with both records on both sides. I don't think this is a
> good idea...
>
> 	Or is it? There is no data loss this way.. just data
> annoyance. But at least theres no loss. Is this the correct way to resolve
> such a thing?
>
> 	If we have no clobbery, instead, data duplication when the user
> edits on both sides, we end up with a "directionless sync", which makes me
> happy. It means Ican write code that looks for changes, copies them to the
> other side, or in the case of two changes, just doubles up the
> data. Easy. Thus we have two options for sync:
>
> 	i) Syncronize (doubling data when in question)
> 	ii) Do Nothing.
>
> 	If we like clobbery, than we have a directionfull syncronization.
> That means that you must pick either "Sync, Desktop Overrides Palm in
> Question", or the reverse, "Sync, Palm overrides Desktop in
> Question". This gives us these three sync configuration options:
>
> 	i) Do Nothing
> 	ii) Syncronize (PC overrides HandHeld in Conflict)
> 	iii) Syncronize (Handheld overrides PC in Conflict)
>
> 	Which is preferred?
>
> 	2) Record moved to different locations on both desktop and
> handheld:
>
> 	Do we "duplicate the data" as above, or "clobber"? If we duplicate
> the move, we end up with a duplicate item in 2 places in the list. They
> are nolonger related. These seems like a bad idea.. totally blow away your
> organization.
>
> 	Clobber. We chose one move to stick with. Suddently, its
> directionfull again. Damn. I'd rather go directionfull, or directionless,
> for both?
>
> 	I can try and keep a timestamp, so we know when the move occured,
> and then just use the most-recent of the moves as source of truth. This
> sort of pains me, but I think it might be most reasonable, since we can
> then preserve the directionless bent I'm trying to push on you ;)
>
> 	3) The tough one; Shadow can tell a record has been editted by it
> having a "dirty" or "changed flag" on it. So if the desktop record is
> changed, and the handheld one is not, we know the user played with the
> desktop one and we can clobber the handheld data without losing
> anything. Perfect.
>
> 	But then you go and sync at home (so everything is up to date, and
> the dirty flags are all gone and cleared), and then you sync at work after
> changing some stuff on the handheld. Suddenly, we have records which are
> changed on the handheld and on the desktop, and some on the handheld that
> are "not changed" (no dirty flag), but are *different* than items on the
> desktop which may or may not be dirty. What a mess!
>
> 	Again..
>
> 	Directionfull: One side clobbers the other. Data loss could ensue.
>
> 	Directionless: We look at records, see that they are *different*,
> with no idea of which was changed. We *duplicate* the data, which is to
> say, load the desktop record onto the handheld, and the handheld record
> onto the desktop? Or go for direction oriented and clobber one side?
>
> 	Preference?
>
> 		jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
2090

From: smasters@a...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:29pm
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
Jeff wrote:

> Directionless works for me, however, I only sync 1 Palm to 1 Desktop,
data duplication is a "rare" occurrence for me.  When it
> does occur, a note to Sync log tells me where it happened....

           How many people read the sync log?

           I keep a verbose Shadow Log, useful for debugging. I'm thinking
of
keeping also a less verbose "warning log", so if duplication occurs, it'll
just pop up on your screen at the end of the sync. *shrug*

           OKay, sounds like I'll work out the directionless side of
things..

                     jeff

I look at the sync log from time to time to see that everything is working
as it should, and on the very rare occurence that there is a message
(category deleted, duplicate memo, etc.) I definitely read the log
carefully. Jeff, I'm a little confused; are we talking about syncing at an
item level or at a list level? Could you clarify that please? I would still
vote for duplication with a message to detail where the duplication can be
found. Isn't that how the ROM apps act?

Scott
2091

From: Rick Blaiklock  <rblaiklock@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Linking inside a file

 
Jeff,

In my mind (small as it is) the distinction between linking and cloning is 
visual. Linking inside a file would operate just like a link does today, but 
take you to a place within the same file. I agree with your points in other 
messages regarding consistent behaviour of the LM.

A clone allows you to _see_ the linked-to item (and all its children) in the 
link-from place.

I'm not sure what the preferences of the ShadowGang would be. Likely we will 
want both :*)

To adress the UI issue when cloning an item, why not take a different slant 
than linking. I.e., instead of starting with the parent you want to link 
with a child (forcing a display of the entire list), do this.

1. User selects item they want cloned.
2. User clones item (Edit/Clone).
3. Shadow places the cloned copy immediately below or alternatively in the 
clipboard.
4. User drags the clone to where they want or pastes it from the clipboard 
where desired.

From a UI perspective, maybe clones could have an icon or a different font, 
shading etc. to distinguish them.

From a programming perspective, when cloning you would either have to use a 
link and some sort of flag to say "follow the pointer (link) and display the 
link-to item and everything below it as well in the link-from spot".
In my mind, I can make it work using a linked-list metaphor, but I don't 
know the Shadow data structure model.

The alternative is to make a physical copy and (somehow) keep the clone and 
master in sync, but then you have to ensure you don't end up with bizarre 
recursive scenarios. That's probably way too much work.

All that being said, I still want the desktop first.

...Rick


Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:51:43 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Jeff Mitchell <support@s...>
Subject: Re: Linking inside a file

On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rick Blaiklock wrote:

>Recognizing it probably requires a major overhaul of the file
>structure, I'd love to see linking within a file so that an item can
>appear in more than one place simultaneously.

	Not a major overhaul; I allowed for it 6 months ago ;) Its just a
fair amount of work to build it in, and I'm focusing on the desktop.

	ie:

	1) UI; you go to LM, hit a button for linking Item to Item, then
pick a list (could be same list? that could be rough to work out :P). Item
appears at top of that list, when you open it.
	2) On opening a list with a clone-item, the item is compared to
its master record and changes imported.
	3) On closing a list with a clone-item, the item changes are sent
to the parent.
	4) The cloned item will have a link arrow, to jump to the original
master.
	5) The master item will not know it has clones. Or maybe it will
know, but it definitely will not know where they are. So the master cannot
jump to children (could be any number of them, all over the durned place),
and the children *can* jump to the master.

	The harder part is the GUI; I dont' think I want to build, yet, a
way to browse hierarchically another list, while inside a list. Too much
memory, etc. But pushing the linked out item to the top of the other list
is easy, and when you open it, you could move it somewhere. I could even
set the bold flag on it, so you know its somethign to be dealt
with. Moving it so ome child in the list, from the first list at creation
time.. thats work in the GUI I don't have time for..

		jeff



----------------------
Rick Blaiklock
rblaiklock@h...


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2092

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 smasters@a... wrote:

> as it should, and on the very rare occurence that there is a message
> (category deleted, duplicate memo, etc.) I definitely read the log
> carefully. Jeff, I'm a little confused; are we talking about syncing at an
> item level or at a list level? Could you clarify that please? I would still
> vote for duplication with a message to detail where the duplication can be
> found. Isn't that how the ROM apps act?

	record-level.

	The ROM apps act this way; but as I normally do things, I'm
gathering everyones input since Shadow's users may different from the
users of the built-in apps. Actually, I'm building based on data
duplication, but I thought I'd see what everyone thought before I got
finished ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2093

From: Bob Beveridge  <bbeveridge@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Links and files


> On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 jurigararin@y... wrote:
>
> > What's wrong with it? Tapping on the link arrow takes you to the
> > linked item, if there are more than one it asks you which one you
> > want to go to. That's not confusing at all. (E.g. if you are thirsty
> > and I only have Coke in the fridge I'll give you a can of Coke. If I
> > have Coke, Fanta and Sprite I'd ask you what you want. Sounds
> > logical, doesn't it? ;-))
>
> Not logical; pragmatic, sure, but not logical ;)
>
> You have to remember your newbie user.
>
> "Hey, wait a minute, it popped up a box on that one, but not on
> this one? Forget it, this software is crap!"
>

Jeff, I think jurigararin is correct. I would guess if anything, the newbie
will say "Hey, I only have one possible link, why do I have to tap again on
this menu?"

In either case, the newbie would have to be pretty dense to think this
software is crap :)

> Consistency is always good.
>
> Also, you lose functionality.. what if you tap the link arrow by
> mistake. The box comes up, you tap somewhere else to cancel. Whew! No
> problems. If it automatically went, and you don't have the "goto/return"
> feature activated or available, you've ll have to work back to Shadow, and
> potentially break your train of thought. Consider that a lot of people use
> the application on the move.. in the car, walking, whatever. Mistapping
> can be frequent for some people.
>
> Cancelling is an important aspect of this..

5% of the time you may want to cancel. To handle that 5%, there is the
overhead of an extra tap on the other 95% of the times you go to a link -
that doesn't seem like a very good trade off.

One answer, of course, would be to make "jump to link if there is only one
link" a preference.

Bob B.


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2094

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Linking inside a file

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Rick Blaiklock wrote:

> To adress the UI issue when cloning an item, why not take a different slant 
> than linking. I.e., instead of starting with the parent you want to link 
> with a child (forcing a display of the entire list), do this.
> 
> 1. User selects item they want cloned.
> 2. User clones item (Edit/Clone).
> 3. Shadow places the cloned copy immediately below or alternatively in the 
> clipboard.
> 4. User drags the clone to where they want or pastes it from the clipboard 
> where desired.

	This is a workable concept, and woudl be way easier to
implement. Howevber, to the use,r I'm betting it would confuse the heck
out of people, and it wouldn't be obvious you coudl do this at all, so few
peopel would use it. (ie: A feature not obvious is a featuring going
unused).

	ie: I coudl put a clone into the clipboard somehow. But *paste*
from the clipboard makes a copy (not a link), since you can paste many
times. A "move" from the clipboard could create a clone-link. I coudl
perhaps do something swanky where the paste-code checks and says "hey,
this looks like a clone!" and react accordingly.. but then, how do you
handle multi-clip, when you have both 5 items, and the last one is a
clone? You hit paste, and it copies the first 4 as normal, and then asks
you to create a clone-link for the 5th? That could get tedious..

	Thats why I'm thinking the clone to be interactive from onset..

One of these two ways.. a Push method, or a Pull method.

1. Tap item to link to other list (or current list)
2. Item menu, "Clone as link to..."
3. Pick file from pop listing. Done.

Or

1. Realize you want an item from another list
2. Pick Item menu, "Create link from ..."
3. Pick list file from popup listing.
4. Shadow puts the link at the top of that file

(or in place of 4) Givne a flat list of items in that file, pick the one
to place the clone after.

	These are obvious to find (in menus), obvious in usage, and ought
work. I just need to build some UI stuff and the push or pull code, and
the linkage code.

> shading etc. to distinguish them.

	A clone-link relaly shoudl by definition be a first class item.
Changes to it are reflected in its parent and thus the other clones. But
really, its the same as any other item. I leave colour, bolding, etc, to
the user.

> >From a programming perspective, when cloning you would either have to use a 
> link and some sort of flag to say "follow the pointer (link) and display the 
> link-to item and everything below it as well in the link-from spot".
> In my mind, I can make it work using a linked-list metaphor, but I don't 
> know the Shadow data structure model.

	Theres another point of clarity; I'm not likely going to support
clone link and its children (the hierarchy). Given..

File A:
1
2
	a
	b
		iii

And you link "2" to the same file or another file .. you'll just get the
"2" in that file. Not the whole hierarchy. Thats too much work for the
palm currently, or at least too much work with the current Shadow
architecture. (ie: Files are separate for all kinds of good reasons.
Opening up a dozen files to display their content is a lot of work and/or
memory, and the palm isn't well suited to handling that. Hence, just the
one object, with syncing in and out and load/close time, that we can
handle .. even that can get slow with a bunch of them in one file).

> The alternative is to make a physical copy and (somehow) keep the clone and 
> master in sync, but then you have to ensure you don't end up with bizarre 
> recursive scenarios. That's probably way too much work.

	It will be a physical copy, for reasons of beaming and such. I
require that when you beam or back up a file, it must be whole, so that
when you restore it you don't go insane, or when you beam it to your
manager he gets all your work and not just half of it ;)  

	Since I'm not going to handle all the children relations (ie: If
you clone link a parent and its child, they'll be two separate items in
the other list and you cna move themn wherever you like, which can be a
big plus for table of content type reorganizarion) this is managable.. no
cyclic problems. (This whole idea was built into the program since day
one, so I have thought about it ;)

> All that being said, I still want the desktop first.

	Doh! :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2095

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Links and files

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Bob Beveridge wrote:

> Jeff, I think jurigararin is correct. I would guess if anything, the newbie
> will say "Hey, I only have one possible link, why do I have to tap again on
> this menu?"

	Theres a few thousand user interface guideline books that say
otherwise. Also, I did a poll 8 motnhs or a year ago about this, since it
originally did work that way. So I'm not likely to change it for awhile,
since I'm pretty sure its good how it is, and theres much more pressing
and urgent features to worry about :)

> One answer, of course, would be to make "jump to link if there is only one
> link" a preference.

	Yeha, I've been thinking that. If folks believe strongly in this,
its easily done.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2096

From: Steve O.  <misterclean1@e...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:27pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 226

 
Jeff,

I like the directionless idea where records modified on both handheld and
desktop are duplicated.  Since this is likely to be a pretty rare occurence
(how often does one actually modify the same record differently on both
machines between hot syncs?) it's easier to delete the occasional
duplication than to worry if data has been lost.

-- Steve in VB
2097

From: big_b901@h...
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 7:51pm
Subject: Is there a projected release date for desktop app?

 
Is there a projected release date for desktop app?  I would even be 
willing to beta! :)



Brian
2098

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:06pm
Subject: Re: Is there a projected release date for desktop app?

 
On Thu, 30 Aug 2001 big_b901@h... wrote:

> Is there a projected release date for desktop app?  I would even be 
> willing to beta! :)

	I'm hoping a month...

	All alphas and betas are open to the public.. just join
shadow-test mailing list and your'e all set.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
2099

From: Mike Barnhouse  <barnhse@u...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Mike Barnhouse/Raleigh/IBM is out of the office until Sept 4, 2001.

 
I will be out of the office starting August 30, 2001 and will not return
until September 4, 2001.

I will respond to your message when I return.
My backup is Muhammad Malik, T/L 444-8772.
2100

From: Rob Olian  <egroup@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 11:20pm
Subject: RE: Sync preferences

 
If a duplication occurs in Pocket Mirror synching of Outlook data, the
Hotsync box itself tells you to look at the log. If everything has gone
smoothly, no such message appears, so it is pretty obvious to go and look
when an item is doubled because it was changed on both machines

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:12 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences


On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Neal Cordle wrote:

> Directionless works for me, however, I only sync 1 Palm to 1 Desktop, data
duplication is a "rare" occurrence for me.  When it
> does occur, a note to Sync log tells me where it happened....

	How many people read the sync log?

	I keep a verbose Shadow Log, useful for debugging. I'm thinking of
keeping also a less verbose "warning log", so if duplication occurs, it'll
just pop up on your screen at the end of the sync. *shrug*

	OKay, sounds like I'll work out the directionless side of things..

		jeff

>
> Neal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:45 AM
> To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shadow-discuss] Sync preferences
>
>
>
> 	This is a long email; I sent it to shadow-desktop, but just to get
> everyones opinion, I'll repost here. Let me know ASAP your thoughts..
>
> 	It is inevitabler that someone will change a record on their
> desktop and also on the handheld, and that the changes will be different
> and incompatible.
>
> 	Consider that you could make the same change on both sides and
> even just misspell on one. Or consider moving an item on both sides, and
> totally editting them on both sides. Two ends of the spectrum here...
>
> 	What to do in each of these circumstances:
>
> 	1) Record editted on both desktop and handheld
>
> 	I assume one record should clobber the other. But wait... User
> interaction is not available -- it is against Palm guidelines, and would
> be too troublesome for the user to go through a potentially huge pile of
> matchups.
>
> 	In all cases, I would recommend data clobbery. Palm suggests than
> when a record is modified on both sides, that you copy the record to the
> other unit.. so the desktop item gets copied to the handheld, and vice
> versa. You end up with both records on both sides. I don't think this is a
> good idea...
>
> 	Or is it? There is no data loss this way.. just data
> annoyance. But at least theres no loss. Is this the correct way to resolve
> such a thing?
>
> 	If we have no clobbery, instead, data duplication when the user
> edits on both sides, we end up with a "directionless sync", which makes me
> happy. It means Ican write code that looks for changes, copies them to the
> other side, or in the case of two changes, just doubles up the
> data. Easy. Thus we have two options for sync:
>
> 	i) Syncronize (doubling data when in question)
> 	ii) Do Nothing.
>
> 	If we like clobbery, than we have a directionfull syncronization.
> That means that you must pick either "Sync, Desktop Overrides Palm in
> Question", or the reverse, "Sync, Palm overrides Desktop in
> Question". This gives us these three sync configuration options:
>
> 	i) Do Nothing
> 	ii) Syncronize (PC overrides HandHeld in Conflict)
> 	iii) Syncronize (Handheld overrides PC in Conflict)
>
> 	Which is preferred?
>
> 	2) Record moved to different locations on both desktop and
> handheld:
>
> 	Do we "duplicate the data" as above, or "clobber"? If we duplicate
> the move, we end up with a duplicate item in 2 places in the list. They
> are nolonger related. These seems like a bad idea.. totally blow away your
> organization.
>
> 	Clobber. We chose one move to stick with. Suddently, its
> directionfull again. Damn. I'd rather go directionfull, or directionless,
> for both?
>
> 	I can try and keep a timestamp, so we know when the move occured,
> and then just use the most-recent of the moves as source of truth. This
> sort of pains me, but I think it might be most reasonable, since we can
> then preserve the directionless bent I'm trying to push on you ;)
>
> 	3) The tough one; Shadow can tell a record has been editted by it
> having a "dirty" or "changed flag" on it. So if the desktop record is
> changed, and the handheld one is not, we know the user played with the
> desktop one and we can clobber the handheld data without losing
> anything. Perfect.
>
> 	But then you go and sync at home (so everything is up to date, and
> the dirty flags are all gone and cleared), and then you sync at work after
> changing some stuff on the handheld. Suddenly, we have records which are
> changed on the handheld and on the desktop, and some on the handheld that
> are "not changed" (no dirty flag), but are *different* than items on the
> desktop which may or may not be dirty. What a mess!
>
> 	Again..
>
> 	Directionfull: One side clobbers the other. Data loss could ensue.
>
> 	Directionless: We look at records, see that they are *different*,
> with no idea of which was changed. We *duplicate* the data, which is to
> say, load the desktop record onto the handheld, and the handheld record
> onto the desktop? Or go for direction oriented and clobber one side?
>
> 	Preference?
>
> 		jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>
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--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_



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