From: kencn@a...
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Ever considered in-place editing?

Mason,

I don't think it's necessary to give up drag-and-drop if you want in-
place editing.  Take a look at the way Bonsai handles it.  They seem 
to have the smoothest interface in this particular area.  The 
downside is that you have to drag the item by the bullet - you can't 
just tap anywhere on the item - and you have to tap the details 
button at the bottom of the screen to 'open' an item.  

For me there are two aspects to in-place editing that I like. First, 
data entry is much more steamlined when most of what you're entering 
is text (not priorities, dates, links, etc.).  For instance when I'm 
just creating an outline of a document vs a project plan.  In some 
cases I've even started my outlines in memopad or wordsmith since I 
can very quickly enter a bunch of text with tabs for indentation and 
then just import it into Shadow later.

The other aspect is seeing context - knowing what other entries in 
the outline contain when entering text.  This is where the small data 
entry window Jeff suggested would come into play.  This is the way 
BrainForest did it and it seems like a reasonable compromise.

Of course, while I may like the way Bonsai handles text input best 
and Brainforest next best, I'm still using Shadow Plan.  Just too 
much other great stuff I couldn't give up.

Ken 


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Mason Curry <mcurry@h...> wrote:
> I'd like to be able to edit text right there in place, but not at 
the
> expense of drag-and-drop.  That's what really makes it easy to get 
the
> outlines organized the way I want them.
> 
> Mason

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ever considered in-place editing?

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> The other aspect is seeing context - knowing what other entries in 
> the outline contain when entering text.  This is where the small data 

	I've often thought about a simple way of doing it..

Easiest way 1) You start to write, or hit New, and have the "in place
edit" pref set, so the bottom line of the screen gets cleared, a dotted
line drawn, and the cursor appears. A standard palm single-line text entry
field just takes over the bottom line of the screenm. You write away into
that. When you tap out of it, shadow redraws and your text appears where
it would go.

Next less easy way 2) A little popup window; like the detail window, but
only a line or two for text entry, and it appears .. somewhere. Tap
outside of it to dismiss.

Next less easy way 3) Shadow pre-figures out where item will go, and then
pushes items down below it down a bit, to make room for cursor. You start
writing. If your writing goes to next line, Shadow pushes things down
again to make room. Shadows display system isn't well suited to this
continuouskly pushing things down, but I might be able to make it happy to
do so.

The reason for all of these is to make "just start writing" work a little
easier, since it doesn't pop up another window. You still have some
context.

But all you can do is edit the "title text". Tapping out of the edit area
just acts like you hit OK in details.. the item becomes real and Shadow
inserts into the right place and redraws the screen. To edit again, hit
Details, and have the normal detail window come up.

Beyond this is full in-line.. where tapping places a cursor, and
such. Though I'm not sure I want to take Shadow this way yet.. since then
'd be forced into support *Two* separate UI's for data entry, which is a
lot of extra work I don't need right now :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: List Design

I have just created a list as the basis of a work related ToDo 
structure.  It consists of a list of patents and incorporates details 
on territorial filing, dates and numbers etc.  The intention is to 
add ToDo items as required and link them to DateBk4 as actions, 
whilst keeping them in context within the list.
The list was constructed from a CSV file derrived from Excel and is 
currently 120k on the Palm (peditPro was invaluable for slitting the 
DOC file on the Palm, into memos - 18 in total.  Just a plug with 
referance to an earlier thread).
The problem is that the Shadow file is so large that it takes ages to 
open (~6secs) and close (~15secs) on my Vx, a particular annoyance 
when following a link to memo files etc.  Since this is only the 
start, subsequent additions are likely to make the list unusable.
Now the data is only included as a search target and could just as 
easily be incorporated into the Note field rather than as seperate 
items.  Question is, if I did that, would the list be quicker to open 
and close?  The volume of data would be the same, just configered 
into the list differently.

Regards
Chris

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:53pm
Subject: Re: List Design

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> start, subsequent additions are likely to make the list unusable.
> Now the data is only included as a search target and could just as 
> easily be incorporated into the Note field rather than as seperate 
> items.  Question is, if I did that, would the list be quicker to open 
> and close?  The volume of data would be the same, just configered 
> into the list differently.

	I expect that it will not speed it up at this time; in the past it
would have, but I think (I can't recall offhand) that Notes have to be
scanned during loading and will cause the same loadtime. In the future
this should not be the case, but thats a ways off, yet. Once the desktop
calms down a little, I may look into speedups.. I have plans on adding
some load and save strategies that ought to reduce the time by 50% or
more.. but again a ways off.

	In the short term, you could create a TOC (table of contents) type
file, which then has links to subfiles with actual content. This way you
coudl break your file down into 2-5 more managable files, and then using
Recent Files to get back to the TOC oght be pretty easy. (or link back
from those sub files).

	What OS and unit are you using? They factor in quite a bit. If
you're on a fancy new unit (like Prism, m505, etc) and its still slow at
that size, I'm surprised.. but you could always try AfterBurner or
something (though you shouldn't have to!).

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: List Design

Jeff
I think you have convinced me to stay with the list as is.  The TOC 
is intriguing.  I'll have to think about it.

In the meantime thanks for instant reply.

Regards
Chris

> 
> 	In the short term, you could create a TOC (table of contents) 
type
> file, which then has links to subfiles with actual content. This 
way you
> coudl break your file down into 2-5 more managable files, and then 
using
> Recent Files to get back to the TOC oght be pretty easy. (or link 
back
> from those sub files).
> 
> 	What OS and unit are you using? They factor in quite a bit. If
> you're on a fancy new unit (like Prism, m505, etc) and its still 
slow at
> that size, I'm surprised.. but you could always try AfterBurner or
> something (though you shouldn't have to!).
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Patricia Emerick  <hisimage8@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 0:37pm
Subject: Automatic "next action" todo link

Jeff, 

This may have already been discussed -- maybe I just
didn't use the right search words . . . :)

Since I've been using GtD methods I've found that my
lists consist of parents (which are any projects with
more than one step involved) and children (which are
the actual physical actions needed to get the project
done). The children are the ones that get sent to the
todo list.  What I wish for is the ability to list
these children in order and then have them sent (one
at a time) to the todo list as the one above them is
checked off.  Has this been discussed before?  If so,
could you point me in the right direction?  If not, is
this possible (or useful) for sometime in the future? 
 

I know that all work is going towards the desktop --
just thought of this and wanted to ask . . .

Patricia

__________________________________________________
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From: opitz@s...
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 0:40pm
Subject: Re: Ever considered in-place editing?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., kencn@a... wrote:
> Mason,
> 
> I don't think it's necessary to give up drag-and-drop if you want 
in-
> place editing.  Take a look at the way Bonsai handles it.  They seem 
> to have the smoothest interface in this particular area.  The 
> downside is that you have to drag the item by the bullet - you can't 
> just tap anywhere on the item - and you have to tap the details 
> button at the bottom of the screen to 'open' an item.  
> 
For the opposite, look at how Listmaker does it. They allow in-place 
editing and anyplace drag-n-drop. There were times when I tried to 
select a phrase for editing and ended up with the item in a totally 
different part of the outline! This is what is not wanted, IMHO.

Bob

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 0:44pm
Subject: Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Patricia Emerick wrote:

> the actual physical actions needed to get the project
> done). The children are the ones that get sent to the
> todo list.  What I wish for is the ability to list
> these children in order and then have them sent (one
> at a time) to the todo list as the one above them is
> checked off.  Has this been discussed before?  If so,
> could you point me in the right direction?  If not, is
> this possible (or useful) for sometime in the future? 

	I think this has only come up once before, ages back, with no
resolution. Is this useful for a lot of people? Is it something like "when
checking off item x, link x's sibling to todo and unlink x"? Would this be
an option set on a parent, or on a whole list? (prefer whole list ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Mason Curry  <mcurry@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 0:51pm
Subject: Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

I'm not against this for anyone that needs it, but for me it would happen so
infrequently that I'd be spending more time setting it up than I'd save.  If
you just go to Shadow and check one off and hit the "T" box to create a TODO
on the next item in the list, it's already pretty simple and flexible.  For me
the flexibility is worth more than rigid automation.  Just my opinion for what
I do.

Mason

Jeff Mitchell wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Patricia Emerick wrote:
>
> > the actual physical actions needed to get the project
> > done). The children are the ones that get sent to the
> > todo list.  What I wish for is the ability to list
> > these children in order and then have them sent (one
> > at a time) to the todo list as the one above them is
> > checked off.  Has this been discussed before?  If so,
> > could you point me in the right direction?  If not, is
> > this possible (or useful) for sometime in the future?
>
>         I think this has only come up once before, ages back, with no
> resolution. Is this useful for a lot of people? Is it something like "when
> checking off item x, link x's sibling to todo and unlink x"? Would this be
> an option set on a parent, or on a whole list? (prefer whole list ;)
>
>                 jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:18pm
Subject: inline edit options

So, any more comments or preferences?

	1) Any in-line-edit options will be *preferences*. You'll be able
to select traditional Shadow way of doing things, or an alternate
"in-line"edit" method.

	2) Edit is invoked as normal, by hitting New, or picking NEw item
from menu, or by just starting writing or typing.

	3) Tapping on the screen will not drop a cursor into a
field; it'll still just select an item as normal. Otherwise it starts
getting nutty, with Shadow supporting *two* interfaces :/

	4) In-line edit can be several ways, in different levels of
difficulty. The idea is to get you faster data entry on the main
screen. You can only enter title text, since of course the target dates,
colour, bolds, etc, are all available in Details window, and you're passin
gon that for the new items. You'll have to hit Details after creating the
item to summon the Detail window, as normal.

	Easiest to develop; can do "soon"; a mini window pops up, with one
line of text field on it (or two, whatever). You can write into it, and
when you tap outside of it, a new item is constructed and paced where it
will go, and the screen is updated ot reflect the new item. Maybe "enter"
should finish the item too, so that you can just type away and make a few
new items in quick succession. The miniwindow would appear at screen
bottom or top, to stay out of the way of where the item will spear when
completed, to give you context.

	Advantages are that you can enter data quicker, and keep some
context.

	Is this all thats needed? Or will those who want in-line editting
only really accept full blown, tapping on the screen places cursor, etc,
style?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: polly_q@y...
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:27pm
Subject: Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

Hi Jeff--

     I don't know how hard this would be to implement, but for me, it 
would make Shadow the "killer app" that my life so desperately 
needs!  I'd certainly want to set the option for a whole list; having 
on a parent-by-parent basis would be nice as well, but less 
necessary, IMHO.  

     As always, thanks for all your hard work and your great 
responsiveness!

--PollyQ


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Patricia Emerick wrote:
> 
> > the actual physical actions needed to get the project
> > done). The children are the ones that get sent to the
> > todo list.  What I wish for is the ability to list
> > these children in order and then have them sent (one
> > at a time) to the todo list as the one above them is
> > checked off.  Has this been discussed before?  If so,
> > could you point me in the right direction?  If not, is
> > this possible (or useful) for sometime in the future? 
> 
> 	I think this has only come up once before, ages back, with no
> resolution. Is this useful for a lot of people? Is it something 
like "when
> checking off item x, link x's sibling to todo and unlink x"? Would 
this be
> an option set on a parent, or on a whole list? (prefer whole list ;)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Bob Beveridge  <bbeveridge@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:48pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:18 AM
Subject: [shadow-discuss] inline edit options


>
> So, any more comments or preferences?
>
> 1) Any in-line-edit options will be *preferences*. You'll be able
> to select traditional Shadow way of doing things, or an alternate
> "in-line"edit" method.
>
> 2) Edit is invoked as normal, by hitting New, or picking NEw item
> from menu, or by just starting writing or typing.
>
> 3) Tapping on the screen will not drop a cursor into a
> field; it'll still just select an item as normal. Otherwise it starts
> getting nutty, with Shadow supporting *two* interfaces :/
>
> 4) In-line edit can be several ways, in different levels of
> difficulty. The idea is to get you faster data entry on the main
> screen. You can only enter title text, since of course the target dates,
> colour, bolds, etc, are all available in Details window, and you're passin
> gon that for the new items. You'll have to hit Details after creating the
> item to summon the Detail window, as normal.
>
> Easiest to develop; can do "soon"; a mini window pops up, with one
> line of text field on it (or two, whatever). You can write into it, and
> when you tap outside of it, a new item is constructed and paced where it
> will go, and the screen is updated ot reflect the new item. Maybe "enter"
> should finish the item too, so that you can just type away and make a few
> new items in quick succession. The miniwindow would appear at screen
> bottom or top, to stay out of the way of where the item will spear when
> completed, to give you context.
>
> Advantages are that you can enter data quicker, and keep some
> context.
>
> Is this all thats needed? Or will those who want in-line editting
> only really accept full blown, tapping on the screen places cursor, etc,
> style?
>
> jeff
>

Maybe I'm not following this correctly, but doesn't "inline editing" mean
editing the text without any popup window at all - like your number 3 above?
Isn't your "easiest to develop" solution just a variation of how it works
now?

I am all for inline editing (as others have pointed out, Bonsai is a great
example for this), but I suspect it would be a fundemental change to the way
Shadow works today, and there is probably not an easy way to implement it,
given the paradigm you have already chosen for how Shadow should work.

Bob B.



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:05pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

On 2001-08-14 at 11:18, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

>   Easiest to develop; can do "soon"; a mini window pops up, with one
> line of text field on it (or two, whatever). You can write into it, and
> when you tap outside of it, a new item is constructed and paced where it
> will go, and the screen is updated ot reflect the new item. Maybe "enter"
> should finish the item too, so that you can just type away and make a few
> new items in quick succession. The miniwindow would appear at screen
> bottom or top, to stay out of the way of where the item will spear when
> completed, to give you context.

I've used BrainForest before and it has a similar popup window. An advantage
with this approach is that you have one font size for the listing and another
one for entering text.

I liked this method when I used BrainForest.

                    jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 7:52pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

Jeff:

Since I believe I started this thread, I wanted to weigh in on this 
subject.  Originally, I wanted a faster way begin editing text.  
Hitting "New" just seemed like a wasted tap.  I was not aware that I 
could just start typing.  IMHO, this satisfies the majority of 
people's needs.

The proposed solution is much more cumbersome than the current 
implementation and does not justify the added code overhead.  I do 
not agree that it is quicker entry.  How is it quicker than just 
starting to type.  The only added benefit is being able to view 
context along with the new entry.  Is this really a high demand 
feature request?

My vote is keep it simple.  In this case, do not add the popup window 
text entry solution.


Norman




--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	So, any more comments or preferences?
> 
> 	1) Any in-line-edit options will be *preferences*. You'll be 
able
> to select traditional Shadow way of doing things, or an alternate
> "in-line"edit" method.
> 
> 	2) Edit is invoked as normal, by hitting New, or picking NEw 
item
> from menu, or by just starting writing or typing.
> 
> 	3) Tapping on the screen will not drop a cursor into a
> field; it'll still just select an item as normal. Otherwise it 
starts
> getting nutty, with Shadow supporting *two* interfaces :/
> 
> 	4) In-line edit can be several ways, in different levels of
> difficulty. The idea is to get you faster data entry on the main
> screen. You can only enter title text, since of course the target 
dates,
> colour, bolds, etc, are all available in Details window, and you're 
passin
> gon that for the new items. You'll have to hit Details after 
creating the
> item to summon the Detail window, as normal.
> 
> 	Easiest to develop; can do "soon"; a mini window pops up, 
with one
> line of text field on it (or two, whatever). You can write into it, 
and
> when you tap outside of it, a new item is constructed and paced 
where it
> will go, and the screen is updated ot reflect the new item. 
Maybe "enter"
> should finish the item too, so that you can just type away and make 
a few
> new items in quick succession. The miniwindow would appear at screen
> bottom or top, to stay out of the way of where the item will spear 
when
> completed, to give you context.
> 
> 	Advantages are that you can enter data quicker, and keep some
> context.
> 
> 	Is this all thats needed? Or will those who want in-line 
editting
> only really accept full blown, tapping on the screen places cursor, 
etc,
> style?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Don Kurre  <reo@n...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: inline edit options

Jeff, I would agree also. Keep it simple! I really like the start writing to
enter an item.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: <sjpanther01@h...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: inline edit options


> Jeff:
>
> Since I believe I started this thread, I wanted to weigh in on this
> subject.  Originally, I wanted a faster way begin editing text.
> Hitting "New" just seemed like a wasted tap.  I was not aware that I
> could just start typing.  IMHO, this satisfies the majority of
> people's needs.
>
> The proposed solution is much more cumbersome than the current
> implementation and does not justify the added code overhead.  I do
> not agree that it is quicker entry.  How is it quicker than just
> starting to type.  The only added benefit is being able to view
> context along with the new entry.  Is this really a high demand
> feature request?
>
> My vote is keep it simple.  In this case, do not add the popup window
> text entry solution.
>
>
> Norman
>
>
>
>
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> >
> > So, any more comments or preferences?
> >
> > 1) Any in-line-edit options will be *preferences*. You'll be
> able
> > to select traditional Shadow way of doing things, or an alternate
> > "in-line"edit" method.
> >
> > 2) Edit is invoked as normal, by hitting New, or picking NEw
> item
> > from menu, or by just starting writing or typing.
> >
> > 3) Tapping on the screen will not drop a cursor into a
> > field; it'll still just select an item as normal. Otherwise it
> starts
> > getting nutty, with Shadow supporting *two* interfaces :/
> >
> > 4) In-line edit can be several ways, in different levels of
> > difficulty. The idea is to get you faster data entry on the main
> > screen. You can only enter title text, since of course the target
> dates,
> > colour, bolds, etc, are all available in Details window, and you're
> passin
> > gon that for the new items. You'll have to hit Details after
> creating the
> > item to summon the Detail window, as normal.
> >
> > Easiest to develop; can do "soon"; a mini window pops up,
> with one
> > line of text field on it (or two, whatever). You can write into it,
> and
> > when you tap outside of it, a new item is constructed and paced
> where it
> > will go, and the screen is updated ot reflect the new item.
> Maybe "enter"
> > should finish the item too, so that you can just type away and make
> a few
> > new items in quick succession. The miniwindow would appear at screen
> > bottom or top, to stay out of the way of where the item will spear
> when
> > completed, to give you context.
> >
> > Advantages are that you can enter data quicker, and keep some
> > context.
> >
> > Is this all thats needed? Or will those who want in-line
> editting
> > only really accept full blown, tapping on the screen places cursor,
> etc,
> > style?
> >
> > jeff
> >
> > --
> > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own
> micro
> > circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he
> is?"
> > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 8:37pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Bob Beveridge wrote:

> Maybe I'm not following this correctly, but doesn't "inline editing" mean
> editing the text without any popup window at all - like your number 3 above?
> Isn't your "easiest to develop" solution just a variation of how it works
> now?

	Yes, exactly. Hence, easy to develop ;) I did usage pattern
studies and such to find out how peopel would want to use the application,
and I found it was much more leaning towards read than writing, and most
readers want everything grouped together. Hence how it works now. Chaning
how it works to have two separate UI's is tough, and wasteful -- Palm
applications must be both very efficient and very small, which is a tall
order. Mixing a second UI is rather against the theory, and tough to do
well.. hence..

	Varient on a theme.

	So the question is.. *why* inline editting? 

	1) Faster input (no big screen changes)
	2) Context; you can see the stuff on screen while entering text

	So, the varient on a theme mentioned would address these two
things, without significantly altering anything.

> I am all for inline editing (as others have pointed out, Bonsai is a great
> example for this), but I suspect it would be a fundemental change to the way
> Shadow works today, and there is probably not an easy way to implement it,
> given the paradigm you have already chosen for how Shadow should work.

	Yep :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: ~SS~  <serendipitous-one@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

I have tried Bonsai with in line editing.  I choose Shadow because the
flashing cursor in Bonsai drove me crazy when I was only viewing an outline.
I also tried BrainForest, and I guess I could live with the little pop up
window, but really didn't like that either.    Jeff mentioned a line at the
bottom of the palm screen for editing which may not be bad which seems like
the best option so far if a change has to be made.

annie

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, ~SS~ wrote:

> I have tried Bonsai with in line editing.  I choose Shadow because the
> flashing cursor in Bonsai drove me crazy when I was only viewing an outline.
> I also tried BrainForest, and I guess I could live with the little pop up
> window, but really didn't like that either.    Jeff mentioned a line at the
> bottom of the palm screen for editing which may not be bad which seems like
> the best option so far if a change has to be made.

	No change has to be made, since most people like the way things
work now. The in-line stuff we're talking about now is all just up in the
air, and if it did become desirable, it'd be a pref or user option. I'm
certainly not going to change the overall way the program works at this
late stage in its life :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Bob Beveridge  <bbeveridge@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 11:16pm
Subject: Re: inline edit options

>
> So the question is.. *why* inline editting?
>
> 1) Faster input (no big screen changes)
> 2) Context; you can see the stuff on screen while entering text
>
> So, the varient on a theme mentioned would address these two
> things, without significantly altering anything.
>

I guess I think Shadow is already pretty fast for "entry" of data; and for
#2, I think you are proposing a partial solution; I'm not sure this is worth
the effort - I would rather see you devote time to making drag & drop a bit
better, or work on one of the many other suggestions that various users have
suggested.

> > I am all for inline editing (as others have pointed out, Bonsai is a
great
> > example for this), but I suspect it would be a fundemental change to the
way
> > Shadow works today, and there is probably not an easy way to implement
it,
> > given the paradigm you have already chosen for how Shadow should work.
>
> Yep :/
>
> jeff

I would like to see inline editing someday, but since it doesn't really fit
in with the way the program is designed, I would not worry about it now.
Maybe someday you will decide to re-write the whole thing for some reason -
that would be the time to introduce such a big change.

Bob B.


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From: grumpstone@y...
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 0:32am
Subject: Excuse me if you've heard this one before...

I have suggestion regarding sorting.

It seems that sort by date puts undated before dated ones.  While 
this makes numeric sense, I think that most people would want to see 
the dated todo's first, then the undated ones.  

By the way, Outlook does the same thing.

Just my too sense :)

From: Mason Curry  <mcurry@h...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 0:44am
Subject: Re: Excuse me if you've heard this one before...

Not necessarily

Mason

grumpstone@y... wrote:

> I have suggestion regarding sorting.
>
> It seems that sort by date puts undated before dated ones.  While
> this makes numeric sense, I think that most people would want to see
> the dated todo's first, then the undated ones.
>
> By the way, Outlook does the same thing.
>
> Just my too sense :)
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: bynumr@e...
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 4:14am
Subject: memorymgr error

I've got a couple of different projects save with Shadow.  Recently, 
every time I make a change or save a project, I get a 
memorymgr.c,Line:4365, NULL handle error.  Anyone have any idea what 
I need to do to correct.  I have version 1.5.14 

Thanks
RKB

From: jacques@t...
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 2:18pm
Subject: Re: edit options :fast entry for a batch of items and split screen ?

Was :  inline edit options
Hello Jeff,

At 11:18 14/08/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>         So, any more comments or preferences?

I don't vote for what is effort, footprint, pref complexity, misleading 
displays just for comfort and esthetics'sake ;-)

KIS !!

When you have to drop a new idea, item, I find Shadow entry pretty fast as 
is. I sure wouldn't suffer a flashing cursor while I'm reading !

>The idea is to get you faster data entry on the main
>screen.

"faster data entry" is a (good) *objective*,
"on the main screen" is only a possible *method* : don't mix ;-)


I find Shadow pretty fast for *one* entry, but not so much for a bunch of 
entries :

I would like to tie this discussion to a wish we were quite a few to agree 
on, some months ago : fast entry for a batch of items (just for text, not 
for time and priorities). In the note editor the first chunk (till the 
first EOL) would become item title, the remaining would be the note. A 
"new" button *inside* the note entry form would allow you to proceed to 
next item/note without coming back to main UI.


What I found interesting in today's posts was the idea of having an eye on 
the surrounding outline while entering text. It's interesting only when you 
make a lot of items entry at a time (as above "batch"), not for a single 
one, when you already know where you are when you begin !

Then, what about a split screen option (as in Datebooks with todos) : top 
would be outline view, bottom would be note entry form ("batch" enhanced). 
Maybe the divider would be pen adjustable ? So that wouldn't be a brand new 
UI either for the user, either for you.

Is it clear enough ?
Would others find it usefull (I would !) ?
Is it easy enough to build ?


Jacques

PS - An other way for fast entry, would be import (from memos or doc?) as 
subtree of current item. But I believe the (soon to come ?) desktop will 
bring a far better alternative !!!

From: New Stuff  <newstuff@i...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 10:34am
Subject: new item line, next action, other suggestions

I like the idea of one line at bottom of screen to start a new item while still in context of the overall outline.  I think it could be very useful for some types of lists (aka per list option).  I'm not how much I'd use it personally, so it gets a low priority vote from me.

While I'm thinking about it... Why does the details screen have so many lines, but no option to change the font size?  I'd figure that most people would usually type a line or two summary and attach a note if more text is needed.  If this is the case, it would be much more efficient to allow larger fonts and/or add more commonly used options directly to the details screen.  Perhaps adding a priority dropdown (which can currently only be changed when shown in the main outline)?  Maybe squeeze the auto-numbering label and dropdown onto the same line?  I think most people get the idea after "1-2-3" without needing the "-4-5" too.  :)

I agree with Patricia on the "next action" option.  I found the feature really useful in Life Balance.  Maybe you could only have the ToDo link created when the Start Date for the task hits?  Of course that would only work for people who use SP on a daily basis (so SP could scan the outline and link upon startup).  But I guess that most people who'd want to do that already use SP constantly.  But what about other outlines that aren't opened that day?  Nevermind.. the whole thing seems like too much work now.  :)  Still gets a low priority vote from me if you can figure out how it would work.

A few other suggestions I have:
- Should be able to use the page up/down buttons to scroll when choosing an import memo.
- I think undated items should be last when sorted by date.
- Suppress title wrap should show as much of last word as possible.
- On details screen, task type dropdown should stay as "list type" instead of reverting to showing what the current list type is. 
- New items should be able to optionally inherit all properties from their parent, including linking and category.
- It would be sweet if ShadowPlan could ignore all that Datebk4 memo junk.
- It would be just as sweet if ShadowPlan could use datebook categories.

OK, I'm done for now.  Wait... I want HandEra hi-res support, too.  Now I'm done.  Keep up the good work, Jeff.  ShadowPlan  is truly impressive!!
  -- Cason


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Patricia Emerick  <hisimage8@y...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 11:15am
Subject: Re: Automatic "next action" todo items

Would this be an option set on a parent, or on a whole
list? (prefer whole list ;)

		jeff

 
 If you just go to Shadow and check one off and hit
the "T" box to create a 
TODO
on the next item in the list, it's already pretty
simple and flexible.  
For me
the flexibility is worth more than rigid automation. 
Just my opinion 
for what
I do.

Jeff and Mason, 

Yes, whole list would be fine.  As to Mason's
suggestion above, that would be fine if I checked off
todo's from within Shadow, but I use ToDo+ as my daily
to do list because of it's complex repeat capabilities
and, more importantly, it's filtering capabilities. 
On the GtD list some have mentioned using LB for this
and apparently there is an option something along the
lines of "complete subtasks in order".  So, when
planning a project, you list actions in the order they
need to be done and as you check one off the next will
appear in your to do list.  

Make sense? 

Patricia



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From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 11:52am
Subject: Re: memorymgr error

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 bynumr@e... wrote:

> I've got a couple of different projects save with Shadow.  Recently, 
> every time I make a change or save a project, I get a 
> memorymgr.c,Line:4365, NULL handle error.  Anyone have any idea what 
> I need to do to correct.  I have version 1.5.14 

	This is a rare little bug in the clipboard code; IIRC, you likely
did some copy/pastes while opening and closing a list or two..

	Try grabbing this 1.5.15 beta (same as 1.5.14, plus a fix for this
clipboard issue thats been haunting us awhile)

	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow1515.zip

	Let me know how it goes..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 0:10pm
Subject: Re: edit options :fast entry for a batch of items and split screen ?

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 jacques@t... wrote:

> I would like to tie this discussion to a wish we were quite a few to agree 
> on, some months ago : fast entry for a batch of items (just for text, not 
> for time and priorities). In the note editor the first chunk (till the 
> first EOL) would become item title, the remaining would be the note. A 
> "new" button *inside* the note entry form would allow you to proceed to 
> next item/note without coming back to main UI.

	I'm not sure I want to put a "New" on the Note screen; that'd
confuse the heck out of people. ("A new note?")  I could make it so if the
title text field is empty, and you add a note, the first sentence (up till
the last word that'd fit if too long) goes into the title text field (as
well as leaving it in the note, I asume?), and maybe make a quicker way to
get straight to notes instead of details (???), though. *shrug*

> Then, what about a split screen option (as in Datebooks with todos) : top 
> would be outline view, bottom would be note entry form ("batch" enhanced). 
> Maybe the divider would be pen adjustable ? So that wouldn't be a brand new 
> UI either for the user, either for you.
> 
> Is it clear enough ?

	I've been wanting to do this for awhile..

> Would others find it usefull (I would !) ?

	Sure, it'd make linking easier ;)

> Is it easy enough to build ?

	No :/ Pretty rough, actually.

> PS - An other way for fast entry, would be import (from memos or doc?) as 
> subtree of current item. But I believe the (soon to come ?) desktop will 
> bring a far better alternative !!!

	The desktop will be extremely rudimentary in its first
incarnation. It'll grow over time as well, though. The new conduit ought
be ready for first alpha stage this weekend, with luck.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 0:20pm
Subject: Re: new item line, next action, other suggestions

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, New Stuff wrote:

> efficient to allow larger fonts and/or add more commonly used options
> directly to the details screen.  Perhaps adding a priority dropdown
> (which can currently only be changed when shown in the main outline)?  
> Maybe squeeze the auto-numbering label and dropdown onto the same
> line?  I think most people get the idea after "1-2-3" without needing
> the "-4-5" too.  :)

	Priority is settable in details, if priority is available for that
item's view. I may make the sometimes-hidden attributes always visible,
since you can so easily swap views..

	Font support is on my list of things to worry about for 1.7.0 and
sadly not 1.6.0.

> - Should be able to use the page up/down buttons to scroll when
> choosing an import memo.

	Hmm. Thought they worked :)

> - I think undated items should be last when sorted by date.

	Not all people do. Tough one.

> - Suppress title wrap should show as much of last word as possible.

	A few Germans have requested this; in general, people seam to like
word-wrap and not just letter-wrap. *shrug*

> - On details screen, task type dropdown should stay as "list type"
> instead of reverting to showing what the current list type is.

	hmm?

> - New items should be able to optionally inherit all properties from
> their parent, including linking and category.

	Most people do not want to inherit everything into children; ie:
Consider that one level is titles in an esay, and the children level is
just prose. The titles may be bold, with Roman autonumbers. The children
would certainly not be.

	Todo category I may make inherited in a more dynamic way, later
(ie: If no todo category set, then climb up the tree looking for a parent
that has one assigned and use it?).

	Linking shouldn't be implicit perhaps; certainly having an item
inherit addresses, memos, todolinks, etc strikes me as meaningless;
inheriting todos and datebooks is pure bad, since then the items would
sync together and the parent and child would always look the same :P

> - It would be sweet if ShadowPlan could ignore all that Datebk4 memo junk.

	yeah; This is on my todo list for "later" -- I'm workign onthings
that benefit all Shadow users for now, and not features that help out just
ActNames or just DB4 users. I would like to support AN and DB4 icons, and
hjide their memo schtuff, though.

> - It would be just as sweet if ShadowPlan could use datebook categories.

	Shadow's category model will be much more powerful than other palm
apps, and so can't map easy to some other apps category extensions. (ie:
Shadow will let you have 200 categories, and not just 15 :P). Again
though, Shadow ties into DB4 and AN well, but through using standard stuff
and not their extensions..

> OK, I'm done for now.  Wait... I want HandEra hi-res support, too.  
> Now I'm done.  Keep up the good work, Jeff.  ShadowPlan is truly
> impressive!!

	Man. Quite a list :P I've got my work cut out for me :P

	Hires support will come when Palm picks which standard they're
going with; or if they don't, then I'll pick one, and do it first :P

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bynumr@e...
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:09pm
Subject: Re: memorymgr error

Thanks Jeff, it seems to work great.  

RKB
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 bynumr@e... wrote:
> 
> > I've got a couple of different projects save with Shadow.  
Recently, 
> > every time I make a change or save a project, I get a 
> > memorymgr.c,Line:4365, NULL handle error.  Anyone have any idea 
what 
> > I need to do to correct.  I have version 1.5.14 
> 
> 	This is a rare little bug in the clipboard code; IIRC, you 
likely
> did some copy/pastes while opening and closing a list or two..
> 
> 	Try grabbing this 1.5.15 beta (same as 1.5.14, plus a fix for 
this
> clipboard issue thats been haunting us awhile)
> 
> 	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow1515.zip
> 
> 	Let me know how it goes..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jjjk40@y...
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

Hi there (especially Jeff)!

I like to use the "Suppress title word wrap" setting on my lists to 
see as many entries on one page as possible.

However, when I use the setting, Shadow breaks the titles at spaces, 
replacing the first non-fitting word with "...". This makes sometimes 
very short lines, maybe just the first word of an entry (I use the 
Finnish language, which often has long words).

Could you think of making the long titles show up to the end of the 
line (minus the note icon, of course, where appropriate), breaking the 
word in the middle and inserting "..." at the last character position? 
This would make the setting "Suppress title word wrap" more usable.

Anyway, thanks for Shadow: it's great, couldn't work without it.

Jouni

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

How many others want this?

	I got 3 requests this week for it :)

	Should "Suppress title wordwrap" always do this, or do most people
want it broken at a space, and others at a letter?

		jeff

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 jjjk40@y... wrote:

> Hi there (especially Jeff)!
> 
> I like to use the "Suppress title word wrap" setting on my lists to 
> see as many entries on one page as possible.
> 
> However, when I use the setting, Shadow breaks the titles at spaces, 
> replacing the first non-fitting word with "...". This makes sometimes 
> very short lines, maybe just the first word of an entry (I use the 
> Finnish language, which often has long words).
> 
> Could you think of making the long titles show up to the end of the 
> line (minus the note icon, of course, where appropriate), breaking the 
> word in the middle and inserting "..." at the last character position? 
> This would make the setting "Suppress title word wrap" more usable.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for Shadow: it's great, couldn't work without it.
> 
> Jouni
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: smasters@a...
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

Either way is ok with me Jeff. i would rather  you decide this one, instead
of having another preference to worry about. Keep up the excellent work.

Scott


                                                                                                                   
                    Jeff Mitchell                                                                                  
                    <support@s...        To:     shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com                                    
                    eton.org>            cc:                                                                       
                                         Subject:     Re: [shadow-discuss] Title word wrap suppression and long    
                    08/15/2001           first words                                                               
                    04:48 PM                                                                                       
                    Please                                                                                         
                    respond to                                                                                     
                    shadow-discus                                                                                  
                    s                                                                                              
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   





           How many others want this?

           I got 3 requests this week for it :)

           Should "Suppress title wordwrap" always do this, or do most
people
want it broken at a space, and others at a letter?

                     jeff

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 jjjk40@y... wrote:

> Hi there (especially Jeff)!
>
> I like to use the "Suppress title word wrap" setting on my lists to
> see as many entries on one page as possible.
>
> However, when I use the setting, Shadow breaks the titles at spaces,
> replacing the first non-fitting word with "...". This makes sometimes
> very short lines, maybe just the first word of an entry (I use the
> Finnish language, which often has long words).
>
> Could you think of making the long titles show up to the end of the
> line (minus the note icon, of course, where appropriate), breaking the
> word in the middle and inserting "..." at the last character position?
> This would make the setting "Suppress title word wrap" more usable.
>
> Anyway, thanks for Shadow: it's great, couldn't work without it.
>
> Jouni
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>
>

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Frank Crowe  <fcrowe@i...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

Prefer a break when line is full whether mid word or not.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Title word wrap suppression and long first
words


>
> How many others want this?
>
> I got 3 requests this week for it :)
>
> Should "Suppress title wordwrap" always do this, or do most people
> want it broken at a space, and others at a letter?
>
> jeff
>
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 jjjk40@y... wrote:
>
> > Hi there (especially Jeff)!
> >
> > I like to use the "Suppress title word wrap" setting on my lists to
> > see as many entries on one page as possible.
> >
> > However, when I use the setting, Shadow breaks the titles at spaces,
> > replacing the first non-fitting word with "...". This makes sometimes
> > very short lines, maybe just the first word of an entry (I use the
> > Finnish language, which often has long words).
> >
> > Could you think of making the long titles show up to the end of the
> > line (minus the note icon, of course, where appropriate), breaking the
> > word in the middle and inserting "..." at the last character position?
> > This would make the setting "Suppress title word wrap" more usable.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for Shadow: it's great, couldn't work without it.
> >
> > Jouni
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

From: jacques@t...  <jacques@t...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: Rép.:Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> a écrit le  16/8/01 0:22:

>
>	How many others want 
>this?

Don't really need it, but don't mind : most of my titles are less one line,
and I have wordwrap always set.

Jacques Turbé

From: Steven Whatley  <swhatley@b...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 3:28am
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 	Should "Suppress title wordwrap" always do this, or do most people
> want it broken at a space, and others at a letter?

Letter, please.

Thanks,
Steven

From: glacefield@v...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:08am
Subject: Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> Is this useful for a lot of people?

I too have just started implementing GTD methods, and would *love* to
see this feature in Shadow.

> Is it something like "when checking off item x, link x's sibling to
> todo and unlink x"?

Exactly!

> Would this be an option set on a parent, or on a whole list?
> (prefer whole list ;)

Many of my "projects" (i.e. per GTD, require more than one action to 
complete) are grouped into one file, as individual Task Lists, but 
some siblings are not necessarily projects themselves, maybe project 
Notes.  If the option were implemented on a list basis, when a 
project were complete, my Notes would be linked to a ToDo, and I 
wouldn't want that.

How about a compromise?  Rather than have the option apply to a whole 
list (can be intrusive, as I described above) or apply to any parent 
(maybe too complex?), how about only having it apply to Task List 
types when turned on?

Greg

From: glacefield@v...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:10am
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	How many others want this?
>
> 	Should "Suppress title wordwrap" always do this, or do most
> people want it broken at a space, and others at a letter?

Show as much text as possible, regardless of whether the line ends in 
mid-word or not.  Keep the ellipsis... :-)

Greg

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:32am
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression and long first words

On 2001-08-15 at 21:38, jjjk40@y... wrote:

> However, when I use the setting, Shadow breaks the titles at spaces, 
> replacing the first non-fitting word with "...". This makes sometimes 
> very short lines, maybe just the first word of an entry (I use the 
> Finnish language, which often has long words).

I kind of have the same problem, Swedish has longer words than English but much
shorter than Finnish, about the same as German.

                jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/

From: jreyes1958@y...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:34am
Subject: Null dates

Would like to see filter option to suppress null dates. If you select
a filter such as current and future targets or current or past
targets, you get a list of all the dated ones in the list that match
criteria plus all the UNDATED ones. If you have hundreds of undated
ones as I do that have not been "called to action" yet, it makes these
filters useless. 

What is interesting is that the filter "Items starting today" will
also give you todays items plus UNDATED ones, but the filter "This
week's starting items" or "this week's target items" will correctly
filter out only the ones with starting or target dates in this week
and will suppress items with starting dates that are null. 

Only option I can see at this point is to date everything to some date
like 12/31/2029 to filter out the nulls. But would have to do the same
for starting dates as well.

ToDo Plus handles this with a filter called no dates. It also has a
nifty filter called Radar -- which is tasks that are overdue plus
today plus future seven days. Probably my oft used filter.

I've exchanged emails already with Jeff a couple of times about null
dates before I discovered this forum, but wanted to make sure that my
concern was not out of the ordinary. Jeff is working hard on the
desktop version so can't get to this anytime soon, but his response
has been fabulous. 

Just wanted to get it on the radar screen and see if anyone finds this
 feature important

From: lists@t...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:40pm
Subject: Getting things into Shadow...

My first post as a registered user...well, at least I've given 
palmgear my cc info, still waiting on the reg code...but no rush.

I am finally starting to use Shadow and DateBk4 as tools for GTD. I 
have run into a bit of a hassle getting things into Shadow and would 
like some advice, or perhaps an enhancement to Shadow.

I guess first I should provide a brief overview of what I am doing:

I keep all of my project information in Shadow lists. As an item 
becomes actionable I will link it to the todo database with the 
appropriate category (ie @Phone, if I the item is a call). 

In DateBk4 I have views setup to show todo information for various 
contexts. For example if I chose the Work Desk view, Datebk4 will 
display the @phone, @workpc, and @desk categories. This gives me a 
nice list of things I can do for each place I work during the day. 

As information comes in I am currently using the DateBk4 new function 
mapped to a todo item to be placed in the Inbox category (the 
category is hidden from all views so the Inbox stuff doesn't clutter 
the screen). I love this approach because while my day is in high 
gear I can use one interface to run my activities. I can get things 
out of and in to the Palm very quickly without changing applications. 
The only time I have to change anything is to tell DateBk4 I have 
switched locations.

This is where Shadow comes in...how do I get all of the Inbox todo 
items moved into my Shadowplan? Right now it is a very messy process 
of doing a new from and scrolling through all of my todos. I could 
also import my entire todo list and go through it within Shadow, but 
I think this is even messier.

So, request number 1:

- It would be helpful to have an option of deleting the todo from the 
todo database once it has been imported/new fromed. This would give 
me a clean inbox each time I process this information as well as 
shrink the list a wee bit as I do more "New Froms".

My second request is one of the following:

- Be able to filter the new from list by category. I know I've seen 
this in here before, so just add my vote for that feature. It would 
be nice to have the filter "stick" so that I don't have to reapply it 
each time I enter Shadow.

                           or

- Be able to import just a certain category into Shadow. 

I would prefer the New From filtering...couple that with the ability 
to remove the todo once it's been brought into Shadow and I'd be all 
set. Likewise implementing the second option with the remove function 
and I'd be set too.

So, those are my requests to Jeff...my requests for fellow GTDers or 
Shadow users is to suggest alternate ways for what I am doing. 
Perhaps I am missing something here...not sure...thus my post ;-)

Thanks,
Keith

From: Michael Bryan  <moid@e...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:42pm
Subject: RE: Null dates

-> Would like to see filter option to suppress null dates. If you select
-> a filter such as current and future targets or current or past
-> targets, you get a list of all the dated ones in the list that match
-> criteria plus all the UNDATED ones. If you have hundreds of undated
-> ones as I do that have not been "called to action" yet, it makes these
-> filters useless. 

I agree and am running into the same set of problems described here.

-mike

From: aschell2000@h...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:00pm
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression + request

keep it as long as possible rather than just complete words.  

As well, one of the related features I liked when I was using 
progect, was that the title wrap was configurable.  I generally like 
to use title word wrap, but I'd like to be able to set a max of 2 
lines or 3 lines etc. rather than have some items wrap to 6 lines 
etc.  This could probably be just a global setting, unless some want 
it list specific.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	How many others want this?
> 
> 	I got 3 requests this week for it :)
> 
> 	Should "Suppress title wordwrap" always do this, or do most 
people
> want it broken at a space, and others at a letter?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 jjjk40@y... wrote:
> 
> > Hi there (especially Jeff)!
> > 
> > I like to use the "Suppress title word wrap" setting on my lists 
to 
> > see as many entries on one page as possible.
> > 
> > However, when I use the setting, Shadow breaks the titles at 
spaces, 
> > replacing the first non-fitting word with "...". This makes 
sometimes 
> > very short lines, maybe just the first word of an entry (I use 
the 
> > Finnish language, which often has long words).
> > 
> > Could you think of making the long titles show up to the end of 
the 
> > line (minus the note icon, of course, where appropriate), 
breaking the 
> > word in the middle and inserting "..." at the last character 
position? 
> > This would make the setting "Suppress title word wrap" more 
usable.
> > 
> > Anyway, thanks for Shadow: it's great, couldn't work without it.
> > 
> > Jouni
> > 
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Getting things into Shadow...

On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 lists@t... wrote:

> So, request number 1:
> 
> - It would be helpful to have an option of deleting the todo from the 
> todo database once it has been imported/new fromed. This would give 
> me a clean inbox each time I process this information as well as 
> shrink the list a wee bit as I do more "New Froms".

	Hmmm. Maybe.

> My second request is one of the following:
> 
> - Be able to filter the new from list by category. I know I've seen 
> this in here before, so just add my vote for that feature. It would 
> be nice to have the filter "stick" so that I don't have to reapply it 
> each time I enter Shadow.

	Thats definitely on my list of things to do.

> - Be able to import just a certain category into Shadow. 

	I'd definately first allow filtering by category.. more people
would use that.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Title word wrap suppression + request

On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 aschell2000@h... wrote:

> keep it as long as possible rather than just complete words.  
> 
> As well, one of the related features I liked when I was using 
> progect, was that the title wrap was configurable.  I generally like 
> to use title word wrap, but I'd like to be able to set a max of 2 
> lines or 3 lines etc. rather than have some items wrap to 6 lines 
> etc.  This could probably be just a global setting, unless some want 
> it list specific.

	Interesting. Hmm.

	So, do I change existing behaviour.. hmm.... always a tough choice
:/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: BeccaE  <beccaE@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 6:55pm
Subject: Handheld weekly

Jeff, I see that ShadowPlan got a mention in this week's Handheld Weekly :).

This link:
http://www.hhmgroup.com/publications/weekly/wk0095h.pdf

Becca :)

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:15pm
Subject: Re: Handheld weekly

On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, BeccaE wrote:

> Jeff, I see that ShadowPlan got a mention in this week's Handheld Weekly :).
> 
> This link:
> http://www.hhmgroup.com/publications/weekly/wk0095h.pdf

	Neato :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Michael Bryan  <moid@e...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Customizing a ShadowPlan list and BUG REPORT

I use Shadow for a variety of things and really like it a lot!! Jeff, Thanks
for providing such a great and flexible tool!

One thing I'd like to see in the future is a set of user-definable types.
Currently there are 4 pre-defined types and one Custom type (Checklist,
Note, Tasklist, Flat and Custom). Each of these types have a fixed set of
attributes that can't be changed with the exception of Custom. I'd like to
see something like 3 user-definable types that can be defined separately
(ie. user1, user2, user3 or Custom1, Custom2 ...)

The way I understand how it works now, I can customize the entire list to
have whatever attributes I choose. I can then change single list items to
specific types, each tied to a fixed set of attributes (ie. Checklist, Note
or Tasklist). I agree that this takes care of most situations but I continue
to run into the following scenario where I'd really like to be able to
configure a list as follows:

Parents: progress only (no checkbox, no priority, no links)
Children: Checkbox, Priority, Target Date and Link Arrow Column
	where:
		Parents = any items that have children

This way, I can prioritize the children and check them off as they are
completed as well as see the target date without going into the detail
screen. At the parent level I can see the progress of the completed children
but without a checkbox since it doesn't make sense to check off a parent in
most cases that I've run across. An item with a progress bar that is filled
is essentially the same as an item that's checked, there are just degrees of
being checked (10%, 20%, etc.), so having just the progress bar on parent
items is adequate for me. I realize that there are many exceptions though,
which is why these things are customizable.

My partial workaround has been to customize the list as described above for
Children and also to check the "suppress autocheck" option in the list
options. I then go through and change the parents to be of type Tasklist.
This gives me just about everything I want except that parent items still
have check boxes, priority bubbles and a Link Arrow.

If there were a couple of user definable types that I could define, I could
then apply them to the entire list, or to individual items. This would
provide a lot of flexibility over the current implementation.



BUG REPORT:
There is also a bug I've run across while using the scenario described
above.

I have a child item linked to a TODO in Datebk4 for example. If I check the
item off from Datebk 4, the child item is automatically checked off in both
the TODO database and ShadowPlan but the progress bar(s) on the item's
parent(s) are not updated to reflect the change. If the parent has a parent,
etc and they all have progress bars, none of them are updated. The
workarounds I've found are to either check things off only in ShadowPlan, or
if I forget to do that I then have to go into Shadow and uncheck/re-check
each item to update the parent's progress bar(s). This is a pain if the item
was completed a few days ago since I will then have to go in and manually
reset the item's Finish date to reflect the actual finish date.

----------------

These things are minor but I thought they might be worth bringing up. I
continue to use Shadow more than any other app on my Palm. It truly makes my
job, and my life easier to manage!

Thanks for all the hard work!!!

-mike

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Customizing a ShadowPlan list and BUG REPORT

On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Michael Bryan wrote:

> have whatever attributes I choose. I can then change single list items to
> specific types, each tied to a fixed set of attributes (ie. Checklist, Note
> or Tasklist). I agree that this takes care of most situations but I continue
> to run into the following scenario where I'd really like to be able to
> configure a list as follows:

	I've thought about having multiple Custom before, but I'm more
likely to have one custom for the list, and then allow each item to have
its own custom setup (defaulting to the lists custom).

> etc and they all have progress bars, none of them are updated. The
> workarounds I've found are to either check things off only in ShadowPlan, or
> if I forget to do that I then have to go into Shadow and uncheck/re-check
> each item to update the parent's progress bar(s). This is a pain if the item
> was completed a few days ago since I will then have to go in and manually
> reset the item's Finish date to reflect the actual finish date.

	Hmm. I'll take a look. Thats annoying :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Nick Martin  <TEWoerner@m...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

Something new?  What does "GTD" stand for?

Tim 

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Patricia Emerick <hisimage8@y...> wrote:
> Jeff, 
> 
> This may have already been discussed -- maybe I just
> didn't use the right search words . . . :)
> 
> Since I've been using GtD methods I've found that my
> lists consist of parents (which are any projects with
> more than one step involved) and children (which are
> the actual physical actions needed to get the project
> done). The children are the ones that get sent to the
> todo list.  What I wish for is the ability to list
> these children in order and then have them sent (one
> at a time) to the todo list as the one above them is
> checked off.  Has this been discussed before?  If so,
> could you point me in the right direction?  If not, is
> this possible (or useful) for sometime in the future? 
>  
> 
> I know that all work is going towards the desktop --
> just thought of this and wanted to ask . . .
> 
> Patricia
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! 
Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

From: Michael Herman  <michael@t...>
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 10:04pm
Subject: RE: Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

Getting Things Done.

Check out http://www.davidco.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Martin [mailto:TEWoerner@m...] 
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 4:49 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Re: Automatic "next action" todo link

Something new?  What does "GTD" stand for?

Tim 

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Patricia Emerick <hisimage8@y...> wrote:
> Jeff, 
> 
> This may have already been discussed -- maybe I just
> didn't use the right search words . . . :)
> 
> Since I've been using GtD methods I've found that my
> lists consist of parents (which are any projects with
> more than one step involved) and children (which are
> the actual physical actions needed to get the project
> done). The children are the ones that get sent to the
> todo list.  What I wish for is the ability to list
> these children in order and then have them sent (one
> at a time) to the todo list as the one above them is
> checked off.  Has this been discussed before?  If so,
> could you point me in the right direction?  If not, is
> this possible (or useful) for sometime in the future? 
>  
> 
> I know that all work is going towards the desktop --
> just thought of this and wanted to ask . . .
> 
> Patricia
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! 
Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Getting things into Shadow...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., lists@t... wrote:

Hello Keith,

I have just started using GThD with the same combo...
 
> In DateBk4 I have views setup to show todo information for various 
> contexts. For example if I chose the Work Desk view, Datebk4 will 
> display the @phone, @workpc, and @desk categories. This gives me a 
> nice list of things I can do for each place I work during the day. 

Ohh, this is a good idea. I had not thought of this way of doing 
the "context" for GThD. 

I am using a Shadow file In-Box. Using McFling, I can be there in 
just one swipe so it is pretty easy.

> So, request number 1:
> 
> - It would be helpful to have an option of deleting the todo from 
the 
> todo database once it has been imported/new fromed. This would give 
> me a clean inbox each time I process this information as well as 
> shrink the list a wee bit as I do more "New Froms".

This can already happen by:
  => grab a todo by using Shadow new from...
  => go to linkmanager and use todo link drop down
  => select "delete link entirely" and
  => the todo will be in Shadow and gone from DateBk

It is a bit messy, thougth....

> - Be able to import just a certain category into Shadow. 
> 
Yep, that would be excellent! If the whole category moved into a 
Shadow file, this would make the In-Box idea very slick.

Thanks for the ideas, Keith, and thanks, Jeff, for thinking about 
them.

Bruce

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:28pm
Subject: Keyboard Questions

Actually this is more of a suggestion. I just
acquired a keyboard, and one of the things I
noticed is that if I have a lot of plans, there
is no easy way to move between them using the
keyboard. It would be nice if I could start typiung
the name of the plan and have it scroll to that 
point.

Second, when inside a plan, I have the same problem.
What would be the possibility of honering something like
alt-letter to scroll you within the current level to 
entries beginning with that letter?

Finally (I'll shut up soon, I promise), when linking,
I can do everything from the keyboard except select 
the actual link. Is it possible to actually be
selecting the topmost link as the lookup characters
are entered?

Just suggestions at this point Jeff, let me know what 
you think.

From: Frank Crowe  <fcrowe@i...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Keyboard Questions

You need to get LapTopHack.  Paul Nevai is making improvements almost daily.
To get the full benefit, you also need pEdit.

You may want to join the peditors egroup at yahoogroups  and follow the
discussions for a while. If you are going to use a keyboard. LTH is a must.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Learned" <learned@v...>
To: "Shadow Discussion Group" <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 3:28 PM
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Keyboard Questions


> Actually this is more of a suggestion. I just
> acquired a keyboard, and one of the things I
> noticed is that if I have a lot of plans, there
> is no easy way to move between them using the
> keyboard. It would be nice if I could start typiung
> the name of the plan and have it scroll to that
> point.
>
> Second, when inside a plan, I have the same problem.
> What would be the possibility of honering something like
> alt-letter to scroll you within the current level to
> entries beginning with that letter?
>
> Finally (I'll shut up soon, I promise), when linking,
> I can do everything from the keyboard except select
> the actual link. Is it possible to actually be
> selecting the topmost link as the lookup characters
> are entered?
>
> Just suggestions at this point Jeff, let me know what
> you think.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

From: aschell2000@h...
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:14pm
Subject: Re: Title word wrap suppression + request

you could leave it the way it is as default, but have an additional 
option to limit wrap to x number of lines.  I don't think this would 
have too much impact on existing behavior.  Anyone else want this?  
I'd like this because some of my outlines are indented leaving only a 
bit of room for text, then they take up 5 or six lines, one for 
almost each word.  If I could limit it for instance to 3 lines, it 
would really limit the amount of scrolling around I have to do.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 aschell2000@h... wrote:
> 
> > keep it as long as possible rather than just complete words.  
> > 
> > As well, one of the related features I liked when I was using 
> > progect, was that the title wrap was configurable.  I generally 
like 
> > to use title word wrap, but I'd like to be able to set a max of 2 
> > lines or 3 lines etc. rather than have some items wrap to 6 lines 
> > etc.  This could probably be just a global setting, unless some 
want 
> > it list specific.
> 
> 	Interesting. Hmm.
> 
> 	So, do I change existing behaviour.. hmm.... always a tough 
choice
> :/
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: lists@t...
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Getting things into Shadow...

I didn't realize the link manager worked that way...very 
slick....though a few extra taps...but better than jumping to the 
todo list to manually delete items.




--- In shadow-discuss@y..., bstryd@a... wrote:
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., lists@t... wrote:
> 
> Hello Keith,
> 
> I have just started using GThD with the same combo...
>  
> > In DateBk4 I have views setup to show todo information for 
various 
> > contexts. For example if I chose the Work Desk view