From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:00am
Subject: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

Jeff:

I have incorporated Shadow as a major element of organizing system on 
the Palm.  For the most part Shadow is up to the task.  However, 
there are a few small things that I am hoping can be done to improve 
my experience.

Recent files:
=============

* Can this list be a reordering list?  For example, like 'Alt-Tab' in 
Windows?  I spend too much time scanning for the file I want.

* Can a speed key (.i.e. shortcut) be added for 'Recent Files'?

Flat View:
==========

* I use DateBk4 and Shadow to keep my ToDOs organized.  In Shadow, I 
would like to be able to just see a simple list of all 'leaf' nodes 
(these generally) represent ToDOs.  Is it possible to add a 
preference in Shadow that changes how the 'Flat View' currently 
works?  There could be a preference that says 'exclude parent context 
node'.  This would make the flat view only display leaf node with no 
parent anchors.

Links:
======
* Are there plans to allow links to items in other files?  If this is 
far off or too difficult, I would be a satified customer with the 
addition of my suggestion regarding "Recent Files" as this would 
speed up copying a item and quickly switching to another list to 
paste the item.

Thanks for such a useful product on the Palm.

Norman

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:32am
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

On 2001-08-03 at 10:00, sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> Flat View:
> ==========
> 
> * I use DateBk4 and Shadow to keep my ToDOs organized.  In Shadow, I 
> would like to be able to just see a simple list of all 'leaf' nodes 
> (these generally) represent ToDOs.  Is it possible to add a 
> preference in Shadow that changes how the 'Flat View' currently 
> works?  There could be a preference that says 'exclude parent context 
> node'.  This would make the flat view only display leaf node with no 
> parent anchors.

Might I add a "wild idea" or two. I have several outlines that contains info
about different "projects". This means that I once in a while open each outline,
check each item and see if it's time to link it to the todo database.

Why the todo database? Well, Shadow doesn't have the flat view described above
... and the tasks are in separate outlines.

I recently downloaded the trial version of Life Balance and played around with
it. What I liked here was that it did this "opening and checking items"
automatically for me ... although I've not tried it enough to see if I like the
way it does this.

Anyway, here comes wild idea 1:

How about a special outline that I could "enter a copy of an item and link it to
the orginal"  ... let me put it this way, now I can add and link a copy an item
to the todo database by for example clicking on the "Todo link" checkbox. If I
could do the same thing but instead of copying to the todo database it would
add-link the item to this "special" outline. 

This could the be set to "flat view" and be formatted the way I want ... no need
for the todo application anymore. And it would allow me to see stuff I can't see
in the todo application.

(It's would probably be a good idea to have this "special" database set to
autolink to todo database so they show up in for example DateBk4.)

Wild idea 2:

This outomatic stuff of Life Balance. Let's say that there would be a new
command "update todo outline" ... this would make Shadow scan through all
outlines (or those in some categories, or ...) for items that have a start date
and or target date. If the current date is the same or later than the start date
the item would automatically be linked to the "special" outline ... and if there
is only a target date, Shadow looks in the prefs to see how many days in advace
these items should be linked to the "special" outline.

Those without start/target date would be skipped (but I could link those
manually)



Hmmm, I would like this.


                    jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/

From: David Keltie  <dave@z...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 10:46am
Subject: RE: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

<< * Can a speed key (.i.e. shortcut) be added for 'Recent Files'? >>
 
Map Shadow to ToDo button, press  to open Shadow, then press again.
 
Cheers
 
Dave


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Revert to Last? Needed?

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Neal Cordle wrote:

> A thought:  What about an "exit without saving" rather
> than revert?  

	Interesting twist, but sadly its the same thing; Shadow (like most
palm apps) tries not to load everything from a file, and often will write
back into it in real time (though Shadow minimizes this in various
ways). But more importantly, links will have already been destroyed when
you undo them, and some other things that cannot be undone :/

	Good try though :)

		jeff

> 
> >From a non-programmers view (mine)it seems simpler
> than revert.  I have used revert perhaps once a month
> after getting sloppy or doing something stupid and it
> has saved me some time and headaches.  Exit w/o saving
> would have done the same, I think.
> 
> Neal
> 
> 
> 
> --- Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 doug809@h... wrote:
> > 
> > > Maybe you can keep the revert, but just limit the
> > situations in which 
> > > it can be used?  I know there are a lot of Windows
> > apps that only 
> > > provide an "undo" for certain situations (greying
> > it out otherwise).
> > > 
> > > The other idea I thought of is maybe to do a
> > delayed commit?  That 
> > > is, if a user deletes a linked item, you could
> > hide the item from the 
> > 
> > 	Its difficult to go to town with features on the
> > Palm; rsources
> > are tight, and when working in other applications
> > files it gets especially
> > so. A delayed action is interesting, but just not
> > possible with the
> > current architecture ...
> > 
> > 	Maybe I'll just have it pop up a big alert saying
> > "WARNING! This
> > could be worse than it is now!" gut still leave the
> > option available...
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > --
> > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around
> > in your own micro
> > circuits without permission from 'Master Control
> > Program'. I mean,
> > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he
> > calculate he is?"
> > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> > 
> > 
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--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:32pm
Subject: Re: How can Shadow help?

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> How can I link a subtree of items to the ToDo database?  For example, 
> I keep a list of people I normally interact with daily.  The child 
> node on that list are the items I need to discuss.  The problem is 
> that while I can link them to the ToDo database, I do not have a 
> context (the parent node is the context).  One way that almost works 
> is to 'cut' each individual child node and include them in the parent 
> item's note and link that one item to the ToDo database. Besides 
> being cumbersome, I can no longer track (.i.e. check off) the 
> individual items.
> 
> Any ideas how this could be done more efficiently within Shadow?  

	This is a tough question; you sort of hinted at two things:

1) "link a subtree"; there isn't a way yet to say "make alink for all of
my children to todo", since I'm not sure how many people would like
that. Consider if your list is 3 levels deep, potentially hundreds of
items, and you say "link all of them to todo", and end up creating
hundreds of todo items. Terrifying :)

2) Keeping context; this is a hot topic of debate, and I'm not sure anyone
has come up with a good idea yet; ie: If an item is 4 levels deep, you
cannot link it to todo and have all the parent's text prepended to it for
context.. ToDo can only handle a small amount,and it'd be an eyesore
anyway. Keeping just the top level parents text may not be enough. More
importantly, what happens when you *edit* that prepended text. Must Shadow
be smart enough to see that something has changed, and change the
appropriate parent's text? What if you change the text to that of another
parent, does Shadow need to move the item to that parent? It just becomes
a frightening mess :)

	Its a toughie :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> Recent files:
> =============
> 
> * Can this list be a reordering list?  For example, like 'Alt-Tab' in 
> Windows?  I spend too much time scanning for the file I want.

	What do you mean? I guess you mean as a list gets opened remove it
from the recent files, then put it at the bottom? I considered this, but
thought it might be better to leave them in the same order, since you
coudl easily get used to the order (if you stick to 10 files most of the
time), and thus could more quickly jump around. If it kept reordering,
you'd have to read it to find them...

> * Can a speed key (.i.e. shortcut) be added for 'Recent Files'?

	If Shadow is on a hardkey (like memo or todo button or the like),
then just push it again to get it to popup. (Of course, in the file
selection screen there is a button on the main display). Also, under the
[V] popmenu is an option to bring it up (thats 2 taps). Thats same number
of gestures as a shortcut.

> * I use DateBk4 and Shadow to keep my ToDOs organized.  In Shadow, I 
> would like to be able to just see a simple list of all 'leaf' nodes 
> (these generally) represent ToDOs.  Is it possible to add a 
> preference in Shadow that changes how the 'Flat View' currently 
> works?  There could be a preference that says 'exclude parent context 
> node'.  This would make the flat view only display leaf node with no 
> parent anchors.

	This'll be some work and I've scheduled it for down the road; I
always believed parental context is needed to define what a todo is
relating to, hence the parents being in the flat view..

> Links:
> ======
> * Are there plans to allow links to items in other files?  If this is 
> far off or too difficult, I would be a satified customer with the 
> addition of my suggestion regarding "Recent Files" as this would 
> speed up copying a item and quickly switching to another list to 
> paste the item.

	It's a lot of work (a lot!), so is down the road. (ie: Consider 5
files, each linking around to each other. A -> B -> C, and A -> D, where
the original item is in A. So when I change C, and it somehow has to
update A and B. Then I change D, and it has to somehow figure out how to
change the others, too? Its rough. I have some tricks, but I think I'll
leave it a bit. (implications for project progress %age and stuff gets in
here and might blow my mind ;)

	Once the desktop application is useful and settled I'll tackle
some of these large ideas..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Mason Curry  <mcurry@h...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

Jeff Mitchell wrote:

>
> > * Can a speed key (.i.e. shortcut) be added for 'Recent Files'?
>
>         If Shadow is on a hardkey (like memo or todo button or the like),
> then just push it again to get it to popup. (Of course, in the file
> selection screen there is a button on the main display). Also, under the
> [V] popmenu is an option to bring it up (thats 2 taps). Thats same number
> of gestures as a shortcut.

Does this work with AppHack?  ---I guess not.

I just tried deactivating it and now the button works.  It brings up the MRU
list if you're in a list, and rotates thru the categories if you don't have a
list open.

Mason

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

On 2001-08-03 at 12:32, Jan Erik Moström <lists@m...> wrote:

> This could the be set to "flat view" and be formatted the way I want
> ... no need for the todo application anymore. And it would allow me to
> see stuff I can't see in the todo application.

I must add another thing: this would make it possible to partially avoid the
"context" problem ... if the link was bi-directional. In other words: I have my
flat todo list and if I don't understand what an item means I just click on the
link and is taken to the orginal outline.

(not that I know if this is possible to implement but ... 8-)

                jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments (fwd)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:10:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Mitchell <skeezix@s...>
To: "Jan Erik [iso-8859-1] Moström" <lists@m...>
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments


	Linking from Shadow to Shadow..

	Is this really a useful thing to do? :)

	Do people need to link from list A to list B and then to list C?

	Item in A -> item in B -> item in C?

	Or can I require it to be:

	Item in A -> item in B
	Item in A -> item in C

	This can simplify things a little; I could perhaps allow you to
link from the item in B to list C, but in reality it'd just create the
link from A -> C ..

	Now, to make it work without being an impossible amnount of work
for a Palm to handle, it'd have to be like this:

	Item in List A is linked to List B and List C. A would not know it
is being linked away from (ie: Its too much work for it to keep track of
the potentially hundreds of links there may be to it).

	In List B, it woudl know it is a link item, and that its true
spirit is in List A. In effect, the item would just store the list
filename and item number, plus the text and such (for beaming of this
list). Whenever you open List B, it'd find a reference to another list,
and duplicate all that master items details.

	It would be a one way link, thus. Opening the list with the
original item would not pick up changes in the other lists. The links in
the other lists would pick up changes from the parent. I'd almost have to
make the copies read-onl because of this, to avoid confusion.

	Potential problems; deletion of the item in list A. What about Cut
and Paste? That could screw up the item links..

	I dunno; this would be potentially workable without kiling your
palm to scan lists for changes .. but its not nearly as flexible as I'm
sure everyone would like.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 2:01pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

On 2001-08-03 at 09:10, Jeff Mitchell <skeezix@s...> wrote:

>   Linking from Shadow to Shadow..
> 
>   Is this really a useful thing to do? :)

I don't know 8-)

Right now it *sounds* useful (yes, I liked the automatic stuff in LB)

>   Or can I require it to be:
> 
>   Item in A -> item in B
>   Item in A -> item in C

I don't think this is a problem since the B and C items "is the same item" as
the A item.

>   This can simplify things a little; I could perhaps allow you to
> link from the item in B to list C, but in reality it'd just create the
> link from A -> C ..

If the model is that it's the same item it wouldn't matter, since the user would
expect them to be the same item all the time.

>   Now, to make it work without being an impossible amnount of work
> for a Palm to handle, it'd have to be like this:

I don't remember how much work a Palm can handle ... I did some very basic
programming of the first 5000 model 8-)

>   Item in List A is linked to List B and List C. A would not know it
> is being linked away from 

This doesn't matter ... I think ... but perhaps it does.

> 
>   In List B, it woudl know it is a link item, and that its true
> spirit is in List A. In effect, the item would just store the list
> filename and item number, plus the text and such (for beaming of this
> list). Whenever you open List B, it'd find a reference to another list,
> and duplicate all that master items details.

Didn't think of the beaming ... otherwise I would be satisfied

>   It would be a one way link, thus. Opening the list with the
> original item would not pick up changes in the other lists. The links in
> the other lists would pick up changes from the parent. I'd almost have to
> make the copies read-onl because of this, to avoid confusion.

Hmmm, here comes the problem. To be useful, it would have to be a bi-directional
link. I would like to be able check off things in the "ToDo outline" and be sure
that the orginal would be checked off also.

>   Potential problems; deletion of the item in list A. What about Cut
> and Paste? That could screw up the item links..
> 
>   I dunno; this would be potentially workable without kiling your
> palm to scan lists for changes .. but its not nearly as flexible as I'm
> sure everyone would like.

No ... OK, a few ideas ... but I don't know how viable they are since I don't
know anything about Palm programming or Shadows source code.

+   An alias item (of course invisible to the end user that it is a
    special kind of item), instead of making actual copies of the
    items in database B/C only references to A is stored. When I make
    a change to the item in B/C I am in reality modifying the item in
    A. I can see several problems with this solution but I don't know
    what impact it would have on performance.

+   Some kind of collection view. This view (note: not outline)
    allows the user to view items from other outlines and manipulate
    them (changing name, date, etc), perhaps even create new ones.
    But nothing is stored in the view so when a new item is created I
    have to specify to which outline it should be added. This view
    would then be some kind of "control center" where I can check the
    state of my outlines in Shadow ... something like the "today"
    view in Outlook (the single best thing Microsoft have ever done
    ... not Outlook but the "Today" view 8-).

+   Forget about the whole thing 8-) Demands very little work but
    leave me with "LB envy". Once again, I found that "collection"
    view in LB really useful but Shadow is a better outliner.

                    jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 2:56pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' / Linking

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Jan Erik [iso-8859-1] Moström wrote:

> Right now it *sounds* useful (yes, I liked the automatic stuff in LB)

	hehe :)

> Hmmm, here comes the problem. To be useful, it would have to be a
> bi-directional link. I would like to be able check off things in the
> "ToDo outline" and be sure that the orginal would be checked off also.

	I think I solved my own problem; it'd have to work differently
than other links in Shadow, but I guess thats cool. It'd be like this:

	List A would not know about the links to it. (it'd be a lot of
work for Shadow to keep A up to date with every link to the item; consider
500 links to one master item.. ugh!)

	List A's item could be linked to List B and C and D or whatever. I
coudl make it so whrn you go to List C and link the item to List E, that
it would in fact just create it from A -> E, but handle it for you to make
it easy. So you would in fact end up with:

	A -> B
	A -> C
	A -> D
	...etc...

	The linked item in B, C, D, etc, would in fact be like any other
item, except also storing the filename and unique item ID to its master
item.

	On opening the list, Shadow would (like with todo links) locate
the master item and copy relevant stuff to the current item (sync on way
in). Then when saving the list, it would have to sync on the way out, and
push back things so the madster item would be updated. Thus it woudl be
bidirectional.

	If I were to do this a first cut woudl be slower.. it'd always do
the syncs and checked. But down the road I could optimize it to dsetect
change sin the items and petrhaps avoid the costly sync operations.

	So, okay, its possible, without too much overhead, if we're
careful.

> +   Forget about the whole thing 8-) Demands very little work but
>     leave me with "LB envy". Once again, I found that "collection"
>     view in LB really useful but Shadow is a better outliner.

	LB has some unique features I'm told; I'm not interested in
swiping them.. they don't compete with Shadow in most ways, and I dont'
compete with them in their unique ways. But Shadow is king of linking, and
I always wanted to do item file to file linking. Its just tough :P

	But now I have an itch. Hmm.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: lists@t...
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jan Erik Moström <lists@m...> wrote:
> 
> Why the todo database? Well, Shadow doesn't have the flat view 
described above
> ... and the tasks are in separate outlines.
> 
> 
> Anyway, here comes wild idea 1:
> 
> How about a special outline that I could "enter a copy of an item 
and link it to
> the orginal"  ... let me put it this way, now I can add and link a 

I am using links to the todo database/app because I can then have all 
my tasks that need to be done show up within DateBk4. I am slowly 
trying to get to a point where Shadow manages all my stuff and the 
todo list is used only for "Next Actions", which pop up depending on 
the view I select in DateBk4. 

Bottom line I guess is that I wouldn't find much functionality in 
this skeleton outline type thing. Of course that's just $.02 of a 
large user base.



> Wild idea 2:
> 
> This outomatic stuff of Life Balance. Let's say that there would be 
a new
> command "update todo outline" ... this would make Shadow scan 
through all
> outlines (or those in some categories, or ...) for items that have 
a start date
> and or target date. If the current date is the same or later than 
the start date
> the item would automatically be linked to the "special" outline ... 
and if there
> is only a target date, Shadow looks in the prefs to see how many 
days in advace
> these items should be linked to the "special" outline.
> 

Based on my comments above...is it any surprise I'd like this 
automation to automatically link/create todo items instead of going 
to a special outline? :-)

From: lists@t...
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 4:18pm
Subject: Registration

Jeff,

A month or two back you mentioned the possibility of different 
registration levels depending on what functionality one wanted.

What ever happened with this idea?

I am to the point of actually using Shadow rather than getting the 
beta, seeing what's changed, and ignoring it <LOL>...point is, it's 
time for me to register and I want to make sure I register the right 
way and don't have to reregister to get the desktop in the future.

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' / Linking

On 2001-08-03 at 10:56, Jeff Mitchell <skeezix@s...> wrote:

>   So, okay, its possible, without too much overhead, if we're
> careful.

Sounds OK

> 
> > +   Forget about the whole thing 8-) Demands very little work but
> >     leave me with "LB envy". Once again, I found that "collection"
> >     view in LB really useful but Shadow is a better outliner.
> 
>   LB has some unique features I'm told; I'm not interested in
> swiping them.. they don't compete with Shadow in most ways, and I dont'
> compete with them in their unique ways. But Shadow is king of linking, and
> I always wanted to do item file to file linking. Its just tough :P

Agree

            jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 5:14pm
Subject: Re: Registration

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 lists@t... wrote:

> A month or two back you mentioned the possibility of different 
> registration levels depending on what functionality one wanted.
> 
> What ever happened with this idea?

	There is still only one level of registration and it gets you
everything.

> I am to the point of actually using Shadow rather than getting the 
> beta, seeing what's changed, and ignoring it <LOL>...point is, it's 
> time for me to register and I want to make sure I register the right 
> way and don't have to reregister to get the desktop in the future.

	The future model is not yet well-defined; suffice to say that the
desktop app may cost a bit over and above the current price. If so, than
this extra amount will, as usual, not be much (everyone knows my
philosophy -- good software should be cheap!). But I've not decided how
things will go or when, so register as normal :)  If I do end up charging
more for the desktop (so only those who want it have to pay for it, and
not those who just want the palm app), than there will be an upgrade cost
equivalent to the different between the two levels. Nice and simple and as
you'd guess. But nothing is written in stone.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 2:13am
Subject: Re: How link subtree to ToDo ?

[was: How can Shadow help?]

At 08:32 03/08/2001 -0400, Jeff answered :

>On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:
>
> > How can I link a subtree of items to the ToDo database? (...)
>
>         This is a tough question; you sort of hinted at two things:
>
>1) "link a subtree";  (...)
>2) Keeping context; (...)
>         Its a toughie :/

Reading that, I wondered : "Why not export the sub tree as a memo, and then 
link that memo to the todo in Dbk4 ?"

And then it makes me think of a possible request, a variation of the export :

"Item export with context" = If that option was selected, export all the 
displayed parents (all if unzoomed, zoomed branch only if zoomed), without 
parents' notes...

For once it's not for my sake I do a "unique" request (this one I don't 
need) ;-)°

Cheers,

Jacques

PS - My yesterday request : I really would have a great use of doc export 
including linked memos ;-)

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

Having a means to get a "leaf only" view of an outline is critical to using Shadow for GtD purposes.  The maintenance cost of maintaining ToDo links of leaves manually (as we have to do today) is just too high.

The ability to make a "flat leaf view" that pulls leaves from multiple outlines is the holy grail.  This would be where one single "leaf view" (I believe Jeff primarily refers to this concept as a flat view) pulls as its leaves elements from a configurable list of outlines.

The means of doing this in code would be reasonably easy (yes, yes, from my perspective, NOT from reality, where Jeff sits, granted).

List A is marked as "leaf view" type.  List A is set to pull leaves from Lists B, C, and D.

In lists B, C, and D, specific "parent" items are marked as having List A as their leaf list.  As a result, the leaves of those particular parent items are visible automatically and dynamically in list A.

The behind the scenes mechanism:

1. Jeff makes a new type of list called "leaf view".

2. User makes list A of this type.

3. Jeff makes new function while on NON LEAF lists to define "leaf list"

4. User goes to list B and selects item 5 on list B, goes to link manager.

5. User taps on "Leaf view link" (below ToDo link in Link Manager).

6. User selects from all "leaf view" lists on their palm which ONE they want to link to.

7. Jeff makes code such that when a user selects this option, it does two things.  It marks this item as being a contributor to the corresponding "leaf list" file (list A), and adds List B to list A's tracked lists.

8. User does the same thing for an element in list C (making it do a leaf view link to list A for another element, this time in list C)

9. User now opens list A

10. Upon opening list A, Jeff's code has embedded in list A the fact that it needs to scan list B and C for elements to display.  It therefore goes to list B, looking for elements marked as contributing to list A's leaf view.  For each LEAF that it finds, it displays the leaf in List A's view.  Then it does the same for list C.

11. Every single user of Shadow Plan at this point registers 5 seperate copies of Shadow Plan just as a means of thanking Jeff for his amazing and wonderful work.

Ok, I made step 11 up.  :)

Thing is, I know Jeff could write the code to make this happen, I know the code would work, and I know it would fulfill the requests people have made in this thread, and LASTLY, I know it would make Shadow Plan quite simply the MOST configurable tool available.  At this point, we can link to anything, we can organize all this stuff we are linking to super easily, and we can pull leaves from all of our lists into MULTIPLE areas.  Picture - you have a Home "todo" list that is a leaf view of all of your "home" Shadow Plan files.  You have a Work "todo" list that is a leaf view of all of your "work" Shadow Plan files.

etc. etc. etc.

This is the most configurable To-Do list tool on the face of the earth.  :)

Jeff, please find the time sometime to do this stuff.  :)))))

No, I am not expecting it tomorrow.  I just want it someday.  And I think many other people want it too.

-Joe Chott

P.S. Jeff, is 1.5.14 available yet to where I can tell people about it?  I want to spread the word. . .

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> This is the most configurable To-Do list tool on the face of the earth.  :)

	See the other discussion where I detailed how to do links from
items in lists to other lists. Same thing I think -- you go to an item,
link it to a list, which you call "leaf items". You set up the links as
you want them, or perhaps I could add a "mass link" function to let you
send over whole subtrees.

> P.S. Jeff, is 1.5.14 available yet to where I can tell people about
> it?  I want to spread the word. . .

	Yep, for sure; I've just not bundled it up pretty, but if you
wish to give people the URL to get it, thats fine. (Don't distribute it
until I make an official zip with the manual, et al). But if they download
it from where it is, fine.

		jeff

From: ext555@p...
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

Jeff, 
I always thought the Code Jedi site with the downloads section was a 
public site?   I've told people about the alphas before this , I 
noticed them looking around the site when I checked out shadow to try 
it out---I've referred some people from the GTD yahoo group to them--
Is this something you'd prefer not happen?

Paul 
-- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> 
> > This is the most configurable To-Do list tool on the face of the 
earth.  :)
> 
> 	See the other discussion where I detailed how to do links from
> items in lists to other lists. Same thing I think -- you go to an 
item,
> link it to a list, which you call "leaf items". You set up the 
links as
> you want them, or perhaps I could add a "mass link" function to let 
you
> send over whole subtrees.
> 
> > P.S. Jeff, is 1.5.14 available yet to where I can tell people 
about
> > it?  I want to spread the word. . .
> 
> 	Yep, for sure; I've just not bundled it up pretty, but if you
> wish to give people the URL to get it, thats fine. (Don't 
distribute it
> until I make an official zip with the manual, et al). But if they 
download
> it from where it is, fine.
> 
> 		jeff

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 3:45am
Subject: Flat leaf filtering throughout a subset of outlines ?

[Follows: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments]

At 20:23 03/08/2001 +0000, Joe to Jeff:

>The ability to make a "flat leaf view" that pulls leaves from multiple 
>outlines is the holy grail.  This would be where one single "leaf view" (I 
>believe Jeff primarily refers to this concept as a flat view) pulls as its 
>leaves elements from a configurable list of outlines.

*Holy* Joe makes me bring again a very old *Heavens* wish :

-> Flat leaf filtering throughout a subset of outlines

(flat leaf was a feature I liked in Progect before coming to Shadow  :°#  )

Example:

Categori(es) filtered : "@Current"
Filter : "This week targets"
Tag : "To delegate"

Output would be a flat leaf view of all filtered items from any outline in 
the selected category.

Right of each leaf a link arrow : if you tap on it : the parent outline 
name. If you tap on that name : you go to the parent outline. With the 
*home* goback to "Flat filtered view" of course ;-))

That would be celestial.

I know it's not for now (that's why I included in my sample the next to 
come *tag feature*, whose I admired the already prepared ressource form in 
1.5.14).

So I'll refrain other big wishes till the usable Desktop ;-)

When you don't know what to do (!!) ask me to ask, and I'll do ;-))


Jacques

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 4:00pm
Subject: Re: How can Shadow help?

This is exactly what I have been hoping the tags will do. If the tag 
were visible on the linked todo in the non-Shadow application, it 
could contain enough info to indicate context -- similar to how an 
icon can work in DateBk4.

Bruce

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:
> 
> 2) Keeping context; this is a hot topic of debate, and I'm not sure 
anyone
> has come up with a good idea yet;

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 'Recent Files' and other comments

On Fri, 3 Aug 2001 ext555@p... wrote:

> I always thought the Code Jedi site with the downloads section was a 
> public site?   I've told people about the alphas before this , I 
> noticed them looking around the site when I checked out shadow to try 
> it out---I've referred some people from the GTD yahoo group to them--
> Is this something you'd prefer not happen?

	I think it should work like this: Alphas go to shadow-test group,
betas to shadow-discuss, and on a case by case basis people can refer
others to these downloads. ie: An alpha is by definition potentially
problematic, so it should not go to the public (or else I'd put it on
palmgear, etc :).. However, if its been tested for a few days and you feel
its solid, then you coudl refer it to a friend or the like. 

	For a group like thje gtk-list, then its best to make sure its
pretty solid before going out to them, since they are much more
"user" than "tester", and if problems arise they'll be very unmhappy, and
potentially lose time, etc..

	So, for those who want regular alphas, they should join the -test
list; for betas, -discuss. But if you really like a version, of course,
you'll pass it around a bit.. but don't post it to web boards, other
mailing lists, etc, until its all bundled up and at least in beta..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: How can Shadow help?

On Sat, 4 Aug 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:

> This is exactly what I have been hoping the tags will do. If the tag 
> were visible on the linked todo in the non-Shadow application, it 
> could contain enough info to indicate context -- similar to how an 
> icon can work in DateBk4.

	A shame DB4 and ActNames dont' use the same icon
method.. supporting their icon system swould be keen, but a pain due to
multiple systems :/

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Steven Whatley  <swhatley@b...>
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 3:26am
Subject: Repeat ToDos

Hi all,

I'm new to Shadow Plan.  I think I will be regestering it soon.  I can at
least use it as a collapsible/expandible memopad.  It is really nice.  

I'm not really into project management.  But, I would like to make some
checklists.  In a couple of the checklists, I want the list to link to
repeating ToDos.  I know the default ToDo app doesn't have repeat ToDos
but programs like ReDo and and DateBK4 emulate this.

Is there a way to link to the latest unchecked ToDo of a given name?
Also, are there any plans to add a category option when creating a link
with "New From"?

I've not used a general purpose outliner before.  I've tried Arranger and
almost liked it.  It lacks categories.  Progect looked too comlicated.
It is looking like Shadow Plan is just right.

Thanks,
Steven
-- 
                     ___     ____________     
Steven Whatley  <<<((__O\   (__<>___<>__ \   ____     Don't get rattled by 
swhatley@b...    \ \_(__<>___<>__)\O\_/O___>-<  what I say.  It's just
Houston, Texas          \O__<>___<>___<>)\___/        my opinion.

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 2:37pm
Subject: filtering throughout a subset of outlines : Natara says no

Flat leaf filtering throughout a subset of outlines (continued) : Bonsai 
users have asked the same to Natara people (proof that is a real user want ;-)

On Joe's <gtD_Palm@yahoogroups.com > Brenda, a fan of David Allen 's GTD 
and of Bonsai, reported this below.

I guess there could be a significant difference between Bonsaï and Shadow 
here ?

At least, I hope  ;-)


Jacques

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forwarded posts

--------------------------1. Brenda'post

At 10:22 PM 08/04/2001, you wrote:
 >I do each three months do the same request to Jeff (Shadow).
 >Joe did. Others did.
 >
 >It's on Jeff todo list. But how deep ?
Well, I don't know about Shadow. I have never tried it.
Here is what George posted on the Natara forum in response to my post about
adding the ability to filter across all outlines...
"Its software, anything's possible But we are not likely to add that
feature any time soon. There's nothing in the software to support cross
outline filtering. And how the result of the filter would be displayed, or
editted is unclear. Even the filter mechanism would have to be different,
since each outline can have its own set of categories. The current filter
holds the category number, which would not be usable accross outlines."
and
"The category filter is not a major issue. It could be worked out.
You're not likely to see this feature because Bonsai has nothing in the way
of presenting and editting more than one outline at one time."
Brenda

--------------------------2. Ask for quoting it

At 16:59 04/08/2001 -0700, you wrote:
[Was : Re: [GtD_Palm] re: Bonsai and Life Balance setups]

Could I quote your mail to Jeff (Shadow) ?

I guess there could be a significant difference between Bonsaï and Shadow 
here : Shadow design (a single set of cats, and soon to come tags) doesn't 
seem to forbid a "global" filtered view. It's rather a matter of work, and 
higher priorities for Jeff to do this...

Jacques
--------------------------3. Brenda' OK

I would think it would be ok to quote the mail to Jeff. It was posted 
publicly in the Natara forum.
Thanks for asking
Brenda

From: opitz@s...
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 0:51pm
Subject: Re: Repeat ToDos

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Steven Whatley <swhatley@b...> wrote:
> 
> I'm not really into project management.  But, I would like to make 
some
> checklists.  In a couple of the checklists, I want the list to link 
to
> repeating ToDos.  I know the default ToDo app doesn't have repeat 
ToDos
> but programs like ReDo and and DateBK4 emulate this.
> 
> Is there a way to link to the latest unchecked ToDo of a given name?
> 

Yes for DateBk4, No for ReDo (current state, that is). ReDo adds a new 
to-do to your database each time. When you check off a repeating to-do 
in DateBk4, it actually makes a copy of the to-do, checks it as done, 
and moves the existing to-do to the next repeat date. It does this to 
keep its internal links valid, but works with Shadow's links, too.

The disadvantage is that DB4 repeat to-do's only repeat after X days, 
not "the 2nd Monday of the month." However, on the Pimlico discussion 
group, the author has started to talk about the next major upgrade 
(ver. 4.1) due late fall, and said that full repeats on to-do's might 
be one of the improvements.

Bob Opitz

From: ext555@p...
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 3:30pm
Subject: Re: Repeat ToDos (to-do plus)

I believe shadow will also link with repeating to-do's in to-do plus 
(www.handshigh.com)   To do plus will do the type of repeats you're 
referring to. 

Hope this helps,
Paul 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., opitz@s... wrote:
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Steven Whatley <swhatley@b...> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm not really into project management.  But, I would like to 
make 
> some
> > checklists.  In a couple of the checklists, I want the list to 
link 
> to
> > repeating ToDos.  I know the default ToDo app doesn't have repeat 
> ToDos
> > but programs like ReDo and and DateBK4 emulate this.
> > 
> > Is there a way to link to the latest unchecked ToDo of a given 
name?
> > 
> 
> Yes for DateBk4, No for ReDo (current state, that is). ReDo adds a 
new 
> to-do to your database each time. When you check off a repeating to-
do 
> in DateBk4, it actually makes a copy of the to-do, checks it as 
done, 
> and moves the existing to-do to the next repeat date. It does this 
to 
> keep its internal links valid, but works with Shadow's links, too.
> 
> The disadvantage is that DB4 repeat to-do's only repeat after X 
days, 
> not "the 2nd Monday of the month." However, on the Pimlico 
discussion 
> group, the author has started to talk about the next major upgrade 
> (ver. 4.1) due late fall, and said that full repeats on to-do's 
might 
> be one of the improvements.
> 
> Bob Opitz

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 5:59pm
Subject: Re: filtering throughout a subset of outlines : Natara says no

Suure, foster competition :P

	Its on my list of interesting things, but definitely will wait
until after the first cut of the desktop (theres a lot of forces pushign
the desktop way). Multi-list query really isn't difficult, but deends on a
lot of things. Its mostly just tedium ;)

		jeff

On Sun, 5 Aug 2001 jacques@t... wrote:

> Flat leaf filtering throughout a subset of outlines (continued) : Bonsai 
> users have asked the same to Natara people (proof that is a real user want ;-)
> 
> On Joe's <gtD_Palm@yahoogroups.com > Brenda, a fan of David Allen 's GTD 
> and of Bonsai, reported this below.
> 
> I guess there could be a significant difference between Bonsaï and Shadow 
> here ?
> 
> At least, I hope  ;-)
> 
> 
> Jacques
> 
>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forwarded posts
> 
> --------------------------1. Brenda'post
> 
> At 10:22 PM 08/04/2001, you wrote:
>  >I do each three months do the same request to Jeff (Shadow).
>  >Joe did. Others did.
>  >
>  >It's on Jeff todo list. But how deep ?
> Well, I don't know about Shadow. I have never tried it.
> Here is what George posted on the Natara forum in response to my post about
> adding the ability to filter across all outlines...
> "Its software, anything's possible But we are not likely to add that
> feature any time soon. There's nothing in the software to support cross
> outline filtering. And how the result of the filter would be displayed, or
> editted is unclear. Even the filter mechanism would have to be different,
> since each outline can have its own set of categories. The current filter
> holds the category number, which would not be usable accross outlines."
> and
> "The category filter is not a major issue. It could be worked out.
> You're not likely to see this feature because Bonsai has nothing in the way
> of presenting and editting more than one outline at one time."
> Brenda
> 
> --------------------------2. Ask for quoting it
> 
> At 16:59 04/08/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> [Was : Re: [GtD_Palm] re: Bonsai and Life Balance setups]
> 
> Could I quote your mail to Jeff (Shadow) ?
> 
> I guess there could be a significant difference between Bonsaï and Shadow 
> here : Shadow design (a single set of cats, and soon to come tags) doesn't 
> seem to forbid a "global" filtered view. It's rather a matter of work, and 
> higher priorities for Jeff to do this...
> 
> Jacques
> --------------------------3. Brenda' OK
> 
> I would think it would be ok to quote the mail to Jeff. It was posted 
> publicly in the Natara forum.
> Thanks for asking
> Brenda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 7:55pm
Subject: Shadow 1.5.14 Released!

If you're not a member of my shadow-announce mailing list (hosted
at http://www.codejedi.com), then you likely want to be. But to spare you
poking around when really just want the goods... ;)

	The announcement is here:

http://fw.skeleton.org/shadowmail/shadow-announce/2001-August/000027.html

	I quote it:

	Its been awhile since I made a release so I thought I'd give you
guys something to fiddle with before 1.6.0 formally comes out near the end
of summer (if all goes to plan). I think you'll enjoy the current offering
but as usual, please let me have your comments good or bad so I can
further improve the product with each and every release!

	Yes, 1.6.x will include some rudimentary desktop application,
which will itself grow in leaps and bounds as suggestions pour in. The
application is targeting Windows and Mac (and Unix later) so no one needs
to feel left out :) Just hold tight!

	The 1.5.14 release can be found on the website, or directly gotten
here:

	Generic edition:
	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow1514gen.zip

	Windows edition:
	http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow1514win.zip

	Please, enjoy and let me know your thoughts. Cheers to a happy
summer and fun PDA experience :)

		jeff

	The improvements are more-or-less:

Shadow Plan 1.5.14 Update
-------------------------

This is an update to tide you over until 1.6.0 which is due end of summer
with any luck. Many important fixes have taken place and some great new
features are available to you to experiment with:

NEW: Todo category may be set for todo links right in the Link Manager!

NEW: Most recent files! A new button on the file selection screen, as well
  as new option under the [V] popmenu. The recent files popup has options
  for clearing the list and also for starting a new Shadow List.

NEW: Global pref to "return to Shadow" after a link goto. This can fight
  with some hacks and launchers, so if you have a problem after activating
  this option, just disable it and follow the dialog box.

NEW: Hardkey support: Or if Shadow is attached to a hard key on your unit
  (like the To Do button, say), then hitting it will cycle through
  categories or bring up the recent files list, as appropriate.

NEW: The Sort dialog allows you to sort the selected item's level

NEW: More keyboard support; up/down in file selection screen. Up/down in
  list view will select an item if not already selected.

NEW: Preferences brought together into a more cohesive system

FIX: Various issues here and there with Find, mass Copy operations, etc.
FIX: A little better Palm OS 2.x (Palm Pro units) support

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 7:24am
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.14 Released!

> Shadow Plan 1.5.14 Update
> -------------------------
> 
> This is an update to tide you over until 1.6.0 which is due end
> of summer with any luck. Many important fixes have taken place and
> some great new features are available to you to experiment with:
> 
> NEW: Todo category may be set for todo links right in the Link
> Manager!
> 
> NEW: Most recent files! A new button on the file selection
> screen, as well as new option under the [V] popmenu. The recent
> files popup has options for clearing the list and also for
> starting a new Shadow List.
> 
> NEW: Global pref to "return to Shadow" after a link goto. This
> can fight with some hacks and launchers, so if you have a problem
> after activating this option, just disable it and follow the
> dialog box.
> 
> NEW: Hardkey support: Or if Shadow is attached to a hard key on 
> your unit (like the To Do button, say), then hitting it will
> cycle through categories or bring up the recent files list, as
> appropriate.
> 
> NEW: The Sort dialog allows you to sort the selected item's level
> 
> NEW: More keyboard support; up/down in file selection screen.
> Up/down in list view will select an item if not already selected.
> 
> NEW: Preferences brought together into a more cohesive system
> 
> FIX: Various issues here and there with Find, mass Copy
> operations, etc.
>
> FIX: A little better Palm OS 2.x (Palm Pro units) support

These are not all new for 1.5.14, some (most recent files, return to 
shadow, hardkey support, ...) are already available in 1.5.12. I 
think it would be more clear if you only listed the items that have 
really changed or been fixed since the last version.

Roy.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.14 Released!

On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> These are not all new for 1.5.14, some (most recent files, return to 
> shadow, hardkey support, ...) are already available in 1.5.12. I 
> think it would be more clear if you only listed the items that have 
> really changed or been fixed since the last version.

	Agreed. But the last public release was 1.5.6 ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Mason Curry  <mcurry@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: List Preferences wish

In the list of files, I'd like to be able to access the list preferences
without opening the list (to change the list name or category, for
example).  A nice way to do this would be to hold the stylus on the
item.  Then either the preference box would come up, or a menu including
Open and List Preferences.

An easier way (I think) would be to add a new menu item under List.

Mason

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:19pm
Subject: Re: List Preferences wish

On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Mason Curry wrote:

> In the list of files, I'd like to be able to access the list preferences
> without opening the list (to change the list name or category, for
> example).  A nice way to do this would be to hold the stylus on the
> item.  Then either the preference box would come up, or a menu including
> Open and List Preferences.
> 
> An easier way (I think) would be to add a new menu item under List.

	I've thought about this for awhile; I'm thinking the only really
useful thing folks want to do from this is "rename" a file, and change its
category. Rename is already supported. So I'm thinking of just adding a
category column at the end of the line, instead of file-size and
type-indicator, and then if you tap on the right side have it pop up a
list of cats and let you select one.

	*shrug*

	After the desktop settles down..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Mason Curry  <mcurry@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:31pm
Subject: Re: List Preferences wish

Sounds good to me.

Mason

Jeff Mitchell wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Mason Curry wrote:
>
> > In the list of files, I'd like to be able to access the list preferences
> > without opening the list (to change the list name or category, for
> > example).  A nice way to do this would be to hold the stylus on the
> > item.  Then either the preference box would come up, or a menu including
> > Open and List Preferences.
> >
> > An easier way (I think) would be to add a new menu item under List.
>
>         I've thought about this for awhile; I'm thinking the only really
> useful thing folks want to do from this is "rename" a file, and change its
> category. Rename is already supported. So I'm thinking of just adding a
> category column at the end of the line, instead of file-size and
> type-indicator, and then if you tap on the right side have it pop up a
> list of cats and let you select one.
>
>         *shrug*
>
>         After the desktop settles down..
>
>                 jeff
>
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 3:21pm
Subject: ShadowPlanning (fwd)

Woowoo! Jeff Kirvin reviews Shadow Plan ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Okay, after a slight delay, this week's column is up. It's a review of
Shadow, a chock-full-o-features outliner for PalmOS.

http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column010806.htm

JK

=====
Jeff Kirvin
Writing On Your Palm
http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/

From: jacques@t...
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:03pm
Subject: Re: ShadowPlanning (fwd)

At 11:21 06/08/2001 -0400, Jeff wrote:


>         Woowoo! Jeff Kirvin reviews Shadow Plan ...

You deserve it bravo !!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

. . . and we have all made the good choice, here ;-))

Jacques


>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
>Okay, after a slight delay, this week's column is up. It's a review of
>Shadow, a chock-full-o-features outliner for PalmOS.
>
>http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column010806.htm
>
>JK

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:06pm
Subject: Lost my Catagories on update

Jeff, is it a bug or is it a "not yet" that the catagory designations 
of my Shadow files all when away when I updated to 1.5.14? I was on 
1.5.6.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:16pm
Subject: Re: Lost my Catagories on update

On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:

> Jeff, is it a bug or is it a "not yet" that the catagory designations 
> of my Shadow files all when away when I updated to 1.5.14? I was on 
> 1.5.6.

	Sounds weird; the categories are stored in the ShadCat file. If
you delete it, or if the system deletes it, you lose your categories.
Certainly, Shadow never deletes them. So upgrading to 1.5.14 (or any other
version) should neve rhave this effect, and no one has reported it before
(1.5.14 has been around for awhile). So it sounds like something unique
happened to you..

	Did you by chance delete ShadCat yourself? Did you delete Shadow
before installing the new one? (on some OS versions and with some tools,
if you delete the application, all its data goes with it.. *shiver*).
Ideally, to install, just double click on the .prc, or run the Settup
tool. How did you do upgrade?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:53pm
Subject: Re: Lost my Catagories on update

I did not delete it. I noticed it is set not to back up, is that 
right? Anyway, I was having trouble with my Vx screen and needed to 
do the Advanced Exchange from Palm. I was having a lot of difficulty 
in the process of trying to load my new unit with all my stuff, so 
something may have happened then. I don't really know -- I did have 
Shadow 1.5.6 working on the new unit BEFORE I updated.

I did not get a setup tool as you indicated -- I downloaded the zip 
file, unzipped it, and put the .prc file in the install too.

It is a mystery...thanks for the response, I guess it was a freak 
occurance.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:
> 
> > Jeff, is it a bug or is it a "not yet" that the catagory 
designations 
> > of my Shadow files all when away when I updated to 1.5.14? I was 
on 
> > 1.5.6.
> 
> 	Sounds weird; the categories are stored in the ShadCat file. 
If
> you delete it, or if the system deletes it, you lose your 
categories.
> Certainly, Shadow never deletes them. So upgrading to 1.5.14 (or 
any other
> version) should neve rhave this effect, and no one has reported it 
before
> (1.5.14 has been around for awhile). So it sounds like something 
unique
> happened to you..
> 
> 	Did you by chance delete ShadCat yourself? Did you delete 
Shadow
> before installing the new one? (on some OS versions and with some 
tools,
> if you delete the application, all its data goes with it.. 
*shiver*).
> Ideally, to install, just double click on the .prc, or run the 
Settup
> tool. How did you do upgrade?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lost my Catagories on update

On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 bstryd@a... wrote:

> I did not delete it. I noticed it is set not to back up, is that 
> right? Anyway, I was having trouble with my Vx screen and needed to 
> do the Advanced Exchange from Palm. I was having a lot of difficulty 
> in the process of trying to load my new unit with all my stuff, so 
> something may have happened then. I don't really know -- I did have 
> Shadow 1.5.6 working on the new unit BEFORE I updated.
> 
> I did not get a setup tool as you indicated -- I downloaded the zip 
> file, unzipped it, and put the .prc file in the install too.

	That should be fine; thats the Generic Edition. The Windows
edition comes with an installer. If 1.5.6 was set up and working with
cats, and then you installed 1.5.14 over top, it should've worked.. and it
has for most or all people so far :/

> It is a mystery...thanks for the response, I guess it was a freak 
> occurance.

	Try installing 1.5.14 again, if you can stand losing your cats, to
see if they get wiped again. If not, its something weird. If so, at least
its consistent and can be investigated :/ Weird :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.14 Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> 
> > These are not all new for 1.5.14, some (most recent files,
> > return to shadow, hardkey support, ...) are already available
> > in 1.5.12. I think it would be more clear if you only listed
> > the items that have really changed or been fixed since the
> > last version.
> 
> 	Agreed. But the last public release was 1.5.6 ;)

Ah, the same message also goes to the public? In that case, I'll take 
back my comment. :)

Roy.

From: dkafrissen@y...
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:40am
Subject: Preference: Return to shadow after Goto

Greetings,

Can anyone explain how the option "Return to shadow after goto' in 
the Link Preferences works?

Also, the latest version of Shadow does not appear to have a 
similarly updated manual. Is this true?

Thanks in advance,

David

From: Stephen Starling  <sgstarling@y...>
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:00am
Subject: Re: Preference: Return to shadow after Goto

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., dkafrissen@y... wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Can anyone explain how the option "Return to shadow after goto' in 
> the Link Preferences works?
> 
If you don't check this option, then when you goto a link, the only 
way to come back is open Shadow again.

With this option selected, I can goto the link, then when I'm done, I 
hit the Home button and "Return to Shadow".  This is as I like it!

Later,
Stephen

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:02am
Subject: Re: Preference: Return to shadow after Goto

On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 dkafrissen@y... wrote:

> Can anyone explain how the option "Return to shadow after goto' in 
> the Link Preferences works?

	When you enable that option, and then do a goto, Shadow sets
itself up as your launcher. When you hit the Home button, the unit runs
the launcher, which is Shadow. When you return to Shadow, it sets your old
launcher back up. If you have a naughty hack or the like, it could be a
problem, and if so, just uncheck the option and hit OK, and you'll be
given the option of fixing your launcher. But that should be rare..

> Also, the latest version of Shadow does not appear to have a 
> similarly updated manual. Is this true?

	I only update the manual for major releases (like 1.5 to 1.6). No
time to keep it up to date for each and every release, sorry :(

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: ccahua@m...
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 7:28am
Subject: BugMe/picture linking

Pie in the sky thought but....

Is there any possibility of linking to the title field in a bugme 
message with Shadow? It would be great to see a facility in Shadow to 
have picture items like Hi-Note, ToDo Plus or ThinkDB plugin or links 
to themif that is easier. I'll be happy to suggest it to Iain at 
Eletric Pocket.

Cheers,

Shadow is to the Palm, what theBrain 
(www.thebrain.com) is to the Desktop.

From: FunFactor@g...
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:52pm
Subject: Recent file wish

Hi Jeff and all the other Shadownatics!

First I'm very impressed of the new features that came up with 1.5.14 
(I came from 1.5.6) most notably I know your mainly working on the 
PC side! Your doing great work and I'm looking forward to the Desktop 
Programm.

So consider this a 'nice-to-have'.

If I got two lists in diffrent categories and they are both in my 
recent file list I can switch from one to the other. If push 'Done'
in list view to get to the file view I would prefer to get into the 
categorie of the file last opened.

Best Regards
Stefan

From: Mason Curry  <mcurry@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:34pm
Subject: Re: BugMe/picture linking

Try TealNote.  You can put a picture directly into any app. including
shadow.  I just tried it and it works.

It also saves Jeff from having to do anything.

Mason

ccahua@m... wrote:

> Pie in the sky thought but....
>
> Is there any possibility of linking to the title field in a bugme
> message with Shadow? It would be great to see a facility in Shadow to
> have picture items like Hi-Note, ToDo Plus or ThinkDB plugin or links
> to themif that is easier. I'll be happy to suggest it to Iain at
> Eletric Pocket.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shadow is to the Palm, what theBrain
> (www.thebrain.com) is to the Desktop.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:00pm
Subject: Re: BugMe/picture linking

On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 ccahua@m... wrote:

> Is there any possibility of linking to the title field in a bugme 
> message with Shadow? It would be great to see a facility in Shadow to 
> have picture items like Hi-Note, ToDo Plus or ThinkDB plugin or links 
> to themif that is easier. I'll be happy to suggest it to Iain at 
> Eletric Pocket.

	Its certainly *possible* ;)  For the most part, I'd like to allow
general links to all sorts of apps, but in reality haven't had the time to
do it yet (working on the desktop side). If you'd like to bring it up with
the author, thats cool, though it may not strictly be necessary. ie: If it
supports a global Palm Find, I could hook into that system to invoke the
app and have it load a specific found object (link). If it supports a way
of being invoked and creating a new drawing or whatever, thats cool,
too. If the author wants to make it easier for me, thats always cool, but
there probably isn't much need.. I just need tiem to experiment..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Recent file wish

On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 FunFactor@g... wrote:

> First I'm very impressed of the new features that came up with 1.5.14 
> (I came from 1.5.6) most notably I know your mainly working on the 
> PC side! Your doing great work and I'm looking forward to the Desktop 
> Programm.

	Glad you like the changes :)

> If I got two lists in diffrent categories and they are both in my 
> recent file list I can switch from one to the other. If push 'Done'
> in list view to get to the file view I would prefer to get into the 
> categorie of the file last opened.

	Hmm. Interesting thought; We'd have to think this one over.. is it
somethign everyone would want, or really personalized? Its also some work,
so as you say, it'll have to wait a bit.. but it is an interesting thought
:)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Desktop Thought

I was in working in TreePad (My desktop outliner of choice until Shadow comes out), and realized that there was a feature I'd really like to see...the ability to reformat a paragraph or block of text to remove cr's etc. I capture a lot of miscellaneous information out of emails and newsgroups in my outliner, and have to manually go thru and reformat them all.

Anyway just a request I thought I'd throw out for the future.

Thanks
Ed

From: Steven Whatley  <swhatley@b...>
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 3:37pm
Subject: List file size limitation?

Hi all,

I've been playing with Shadow Plan's import capability with some
interesting results.  I said earlier (maybe on the ohter list), that I
would try import the "CIA World Factbook 2000" into Shadow Plan.  When I
find a flexible product, I try to see how flexible it really is.  It is
also a good way for me to learn the product. 

You can find the Factbook at:

  http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

I used the Country Listing as my starting point. I used 'wget' to pull
down the pages for each country (267 of them).  I then wrote a faily
simple Perl script to create a CSV file that can be imported to the
MemoPad via the Palm Desktop.  I ended up with a 4M CSV file.  So I split
the countries into five categories: Africa, Americas, Asia, Europe, and
Oceania.  Oceania was the smallest CSV file at 500K so I used to play
with. 

The memos I gernerated were formatted so Shadow Plan can import them.  I
used the TAB indented form.  I made sure each memo was 4K in size (I
really liker Perl) so importing into Palm Desktop and hotsyncing wouldn't
be a problem.  Now, a given list per country may span 1 to 5 memos, maybe 
more.

I was wanting to create five Shadow Plan files, one for each category. 
The first problem is that I can only import about 12 memos (which has data
for 2 or 3 countries) before the Palm (or program) runs out of dynamic
memory.  I have 2MB free on my Palm.  If I import too many memos at a
time, I get a "low dynamic memory" warning and after taping <OK> my Palm
IIIx (running OS 3.3) locks up and requires a soft reset.

I did manage to get 3 countries imported into a single Shadow Plan file. 
The file is 88K in size.  But, when I try to open or close the file in
Shadow Plan, I get the "low dynamic memory" warning and the Palm locks up.

I workaround would be to have a Shadow Plan DB for each country and build
a TOC file that lists al the countries and has file links to each country
file.  But this would require loading 268 DBs into the Palm if you wanted
the whole thing.  Or you could load the individual countries you are
interested in.  It would just take time to build all of those shadow plan
files.

I've posted the ShadP-Factbook.PDB and the Oceania CSV file on my web site
for those who want a peak at what I'm talking about.  The .zip file is at:

  http://www.blkbox.com/~swhatley/shadow/factbook.zip

The .zip file is 144827 bytes.

Later,
Steven
-- 
                     ___     ____________     
Steven Whatley  <<<((__O\   (__<>___<>__ \   ____     Don't get rattled by 
swhatley@b...    \ \_(__<>___<>__)\O\_/O___>-<  what I say.  It's just
Houston, Texas          \O__<>___<>___<>)\___/        my opinion.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 3:56pm
Subject: Re: List file size limitation?

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Steven Whatley wrote:

> would try import the "CIA World Factbook 2000" into Shadow Plan.  When I
> find a flexible product, I try to see how flexible it really is.  It is
> also a good way for me to learn the product. 

	Sicko ;)

> I did manage to get 3 countries imported into a single Shadow Plan file. 
> The file is 88K in size.  But, when I try to open or close the file in
> Shadow Plan, I get the "low dynamic memory" warning and the Palm locks up.

	Odd.

	I've created 4MB Shadow files quite successfully, however, it
coudl be a problem with importing, as the ones I created were via cut and
pastes.. (imported a memo or two, then duplicated like mad). 

	Shadow is built to handle quite a lot of stuff.. files should be
able to go to about half your remaining permanent ram without any
problem. (ie: I had a 5 MB file on a clear Palm 3c).

	I wrote the import code long ago, so I don't recall offhand how it
handles things.. I shoudl think it woudl work okay, but if it
doesn't.. hmm.

	What unit are you using there?

> I workaround would be to have a Shadow Plan DB for each country and build
> a TOC file that lists al the countries and has file links to each country
> file.  But this would require loading 268 DBs into the Palm if you wanted
> the whole thing.  Or you could load the individual countries you are
> interested in.  It would just take time to build all of those shadow plan
> files.

	The new conduit (alpha in a week or so) can turn Shadow XML files
into lists on your device. So you could generate XML, copy them into your
user directories ShadowPlan dir, and they'll show up on your palm..

	Curious though. I've never had a problem. There are *many* people
with very large lists.. hundreds of K, 300 - 2000 items, no problem..

		jeff


--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Steven Whatley  <swhatley@b...>
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 5:30pm
Subject: Re: List file size limitation?

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
> 	I wrote the import code long ago, so I don't recall offhand how it
> handles things.. I shoudl think it woudl work okay, but if it
> doesn't.. hmm.
> 
> 	What unit are you using there?

I have a Palm IIIx with the TRG xtra xtra pro memory/flash upgrade so Palm
has 8megs of RAM and 4megs of Flash.  Palm OS 3.3 is installed.  Now the
thing about the way these files are set up is that almost every item has a
note attached.  A few notes are up to five screens full of text.  I don't
know if tis makes a difference.

Another thing I noticed in Shadow Plan is if I tap (not hold) on a note
icon and it takes a few seconds for the note to open up then when the note
does open (inline), the item's properties pop up as well as if I was
holding down the stylus.  This only happens in my Factbook DB.  My other
Shadow DBs don't do this. 

Later,
Steven

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 5:58pm
Subject: Re: List file size limitation?

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Steven Whatley wrote:

> I have a Palm IIIx with the TRG xtra xtra pro memory/flash upgrade so Palm
> has 8megs of RAM and 4megs of Flash.  Palm OS 3.3 is installed.  Now the
> thing about the way these files are set up is that almost every item has a
> note attached.  A few notes are up to five screens full of text.  I don't
> know if tis makes a difference.

	The notes shouldn't be more than 4k long, but that should be okay
since you're in 4k memos. The OS 3.3 was pretty junky about memory.. you
actually only have about 60 or 80 k of memory available in runtime
pool.. I wonder if the importer can't work well with the memory manager in
Shadow.. hmm. *sigh*

> Another thing I noticed in Shadow Plan is if I tap (not hold) on a note
> icon and it takes a few seconds for the note to open up then when the note
> does open (inline), the item's properties pop up as well as if I was
> holding down the stylus.  This only happens in my Factbook DB.  My other
> Shadow DBs don't do this. 

	This is a side effect of the way palm os works.. I can fix it, but
its such a nil priority I've not worried about it :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Learned  <learned@v...>
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 9:33pm
Subject: Desktop Question

Jeff, 

Question regarding the upcoming desktop? Have you
established any threshold limits yet? Maximum
size of a single note is the one I am particulary
interested in. I'm looking at how it might 
be able to replace treepad as my main information
repository and this thought came to mind. Just
curious.

From: jjjk40@y...
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: List file size limitation?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Steven Whatley <swhatley@b...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've been playing with Shadow Plan's import capability with some
> interesting results.  I said earlier (maybe on the ohter list),
that 
I
> would try import the "CIA World Factbook 2000" into Shadow Plan.  
When I
> find a flexible product, I try to see how flexible it really is. 
It 
is
> also a good way for me to learn the product. 
> 
> You can find the Factbook at:
> 
>   http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html
> 

(clip)

Hi, Steven,

This is not about your actual problem, but just in case you didn't 
know, the "CIA World Factbook 2000" is published as a free eText by 
the Project Gutenberg, as a plain ASCII text file (no images 
included). They seem to have several (not all) of them, from 1990.

The conversion of any future Factbook is up to the volunteers of the 
project, but with so many published all ready, there may be a good 
chance the next one(s) will be published as well. Could save you a
lot 
of work, if only the format is acceptable. 

The CIA World Factbook 2000 is the publication number 3672. You may 
download it e.g from ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg. Look 
for the file world00.txt or world00.zip.

About PG itself, see http://www.promo.net/pg/

To retrieve and read free eTexts, I use the free eText reader by
Derry 
Bryson, http://linux.techass.com/projects/etr; that's a
cross-platform 
reader for both Linux and Windows.

Regards,

Jouni

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: Desktop Question

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Learned wrote:

> Question regarding the upcoming desktop? Have you established any
> threshold limits yet? Maximum size of a single note is the one I am
> particulary interested in. I'm looking at how it might be able to
> replace treepad as my main information repository and this thought
> came to mind. Just curious.

	All the limits are imposed by the palm, and as such the desktop
cannot relax them. Shadow has a 4k limit right now, for all sorts of
reasons. It would take some pretty careful work to change this right now,
and I don't get many requests for it so its a little down my list (I would
say that 95% of my users barely use the notes at all, from a guess).
Question that arise are .. how to deal with linking? (ie: Linking to a
todo and adding a 10k note.. how should that be done?) Theres a lot of
things like that, plus internal Shadow questions, to be resolved before it
gets done.

	That said, I'd like to do it, but after Tags and some other high
request items..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 2:07am
Subject: Clipboard bug and 1.5.15 Alpha

Due to some diligent work by one of the alpha testers (Mr. Cordle, 
and the others who spent their time looking too!), the rare and difficult 
to see clipboard bug has been caught! 
  
        Anyone who is aggravated by this bug is welcome to try this alpha 
which fixes it. However, if you never encountered the clipboard bug, I    
encourage you to wait until a beta in a couple weeks, since this really
doesn't chage anything except this bug! Again, this is ALPHA!
  
        http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/shadow-test/shadow1515.zip
  
                Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_