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1401

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 1:16am
Subject: Re: Importing XML files?

 
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 talanzimmerman@h... wrote:

> Is there a way to import an XML file into Shadow?  I tried importing 
> it as a memo, but Shadow doesn't seem to recognize the XML tags.  Is 
> this possible or should I wait for the Desktop?  Thanks

	Yeah, waiting for the desktop is the way to go for this bad
boy. Ultimately, I might make a XML->pdb tool or the like..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1402

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 1:31am
Subject: Re: Tags and Cats

 
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001 ricardo131@y... wrote:

> use more closely,and I would think, it must seem like we are urging 
> developers to "push the envelope" more than ever.. That being said, I 
> consider Shadow to be the best software of its kind, and would like 
> to take this opportunity to say thank you for continued feedback and 
> support that we recieve in this group.

	Thanks :) Its good to hear I'm still on the right track .. today
catching up on 1500 emails (yes, about that many!) has been an ordeal, and
theres been a number of flames (come on, I think I do a pretty good job
here ;), so its good to get refreshing comments like this :)

> really have no idea about what the possibilities are..Could you please
> explain how you plan to structure this new capability and what added 
> functionality it will provide ?

	Nothing is written in stone yet, but the basic implementation (not
mentioning the potential evolution or extensions) is along these lines:

	Categories -- there is alreayd a list level cat assignment. The
goal is add item level categories. So an item will either have "no
category assignment", or "be assigned a category in todo". If you link an
item, it will take on the assigned category. If you change the category in
another app, Shadow will pick up this change. When an item is linked and
also has no assigned category, Shadow will walk "up" the hierarchy, and
the item will take on the category of the first parent that has one, or if
none, then the list level itself.

	Tags -- you will have a Tag Editor allowing you to edit up to 50
or 100 tags for a list. What you put in the tags is your own business
.. they'll just be a number with associated text to Shadow. (ie: You'll
have slots 1-x, with x being 50 or 100 or whatever.) You can assign a tag
or two to an item in the details window. There could be a column for tag
display, perhaps, to make changing and viewing easy. You'll be able to
filter on tag (select all items that contain this tag _____), or sort (by
first tag, then second tag).

	Tags may in the future map to categories or somesuch, but I'll
leave that until we explore tags and categories in more detail..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1403

From: Learned  <learned@t...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 5:14am
Subject: Re: New Desires

 
Quoting Jeff Mitchell (support@s...):
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Learned wrote:
> 
> > An option to always start either in a selected shadow, or 
> > at the TOC so I can pick the Shadow to enter. I am trying
> > to get used to using an 'inbox' approach, and this would
> > make it faster.
> 
> 	I've thought about this a bit.. Does the "recent files" make this
> unnecessary? (ie: A tap or two away) I could add it to my todo list :P

To be honest, it might...I just put .11 on my palm, and have yet to
play with that feature. I hate to have you wasting time on features
that we can accomodate easily with what's there, so let me play
with that a bit.

> 
> > Second, the ability to just import a specific todo category
> > rather than the entire todo list. Again, this is with the 
> > thought of better managing 'inbox' type items.
> 
> 	Already on my list, though I'm not sure when I'll get to it.. not
> for awhile I imagine.

If I buy you a (good) beer, can I influence the list order?
<grin>

Keep up the great work Jeff.
1404

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 5:18am
Subject: Re: New Desires

 
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Learned wrote:
 >> An option to always start either in a selected shadow, or at the TOC so 
I can pick the Shadow to enter. I am trying to get used to using an 'inbox' 
approach, and this would make it faster.<<

Quoting Jeff Mitchell (support@s...):
 >>>I've thought about this a bit.. Does the "recent files" make this 
unnecessary? (ie: A tap or two away) I could add it to my todo list :P<<<

 >To be honest, it might...I just put .11 on my palm, and have yet to play 
with that feature. I hate to have you wasting time on features that we can 
accomodate easily with what's there, so let me play with that a bit.<

The "Recent Files" popup is great--you'll be glad you tried it.

Gary wrote:
 >>If I buy you a (good) beer, can I influence the list order? <grin><<

Hey! I already tried that. Me first! <g>

oooieoo
1405

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 7:11am
Subject: Re: Houston, I think we have a problem......

 
On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 oooieoo@k... wrote: Then today, someone 
on another list mentioned that a new version of another  outliner (bonsai) 
is out. Not being able to help myself, I wanted to take a looksee.<<

Jeff wrote:
 >>Hey, what sort of linking does Bonsai have? Are they swiping Shadow's 
features yet? :P<<

Well Jeff it's like this. I'm not nearly as proficient at crashing the 
linking stuff in Bonsai as I am with ShadowPlan. It's a right-brained thing 
I do as a sideline, don'tcha know.

Actually, their version of linking is very simplified... and works great. 
But it's not as full featured as ShadowPlan's version is, nor as powerful. 
The short explanation for Bonsai's linking: You select the ToDo category 
then check a box to link it to the ToDo database. "Wahlah!"

I had adapted the use of Shadow's quick'n dirty ToDo link to dump things 
into the Unfiled category. After that I can go into ToDoPlus and use it's 
features to do a really fast run down of the Unfiled category items, 
changing categories on the fly. I must say, it really tickles me that I got 
so used to doing this, that after the initial kewl factor in Bonsai, it 
wasn't "all that" anymore.

oooieoo
1406

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 7:39am
Subject: Re: Tags and Cats

 
On 2001-07-03 at 21:31, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> theres been a number of flames (come on, I think I do a pretty good job
> here ;), so its good to get refreshing comments like this :)

It's "interesting" to release software ... you never know what kind of response
you get 8-)

                    jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1407

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 8:17am
Subject: My wishlist

 
I've been keeping a wishlist for this program since I started using it in a 
big way. Some of this stuff has already been discussed, but I kept it in to 
signify my vote (one way or the other). It's time to post it before it gets 
longer.

Preface:

• References to other programs are not digs along the vein of, "that 
program does it, why doesn't yours???" Nope, they're simply references to 
things I've seen and think would serve as good models, because they work 
well. I understand how touchy this subject is, but it's always been my 
thought that there aren't many original ideas. Ideas simply evolve from 
other ideas already in place. I hope you guys take my references to 
features in other programs in this evolutionary vein.

• I realize that in some cases I'm asking to get rid of something, but then 
in the next breath I'm asking for something that could only happen because 
things work like they do. I want my cake and I want to eat it, too. <g>

• There is no way that I expect an itemized response from Jeff on this. I 
just wanted to get my 2 cents in at this point.

--------------------------------------
Here goes........

• Scrollbars:
Rethinking the full screen scrollbar: In all my testing of the various 
outliners the last few weeks, one of the things I found myself using a 
lot..... and loving it a ton, was the left-hand version of the scrollbar 
used in ThoughtManager. I never liked LeftHack when I first got my Palm (I 
may have to revisit this). Dunno why I feel so differently about the one in 
ThoughtManager. Is it closer to the edge than in other apps, leaving more 
screen space? I don't know, but I do know that it works flawlessly--no 
jerky redrawing or anything like that. It makes moving up and down an 
outline so much easier. (SideNote: I just installed WordSmith to my Palm 
and it's got the same kind of lefthand scrollbar- doesn't interfere and 
seems to be really close to the edge of the window, so it takes up little 
real estate. Awesome!)

• Zoom feature:
What would make it even snappier for me would be a button along the bottom 
of the screen --maybe one that would toggle between the Zoom/UnZoom. Gads, 
that would be cool.

• Hide/UnHide Toggle Button:
I'd *love* a toggle button *on the screen* to hide/unhide checked off 
items. I constantly use this feature in a couple of other programs and find 
it invaluable. Being able to Hide/Toggle checked-off items would go a long 
way toward using this idea to replace the template idea. You don't have to 
actually delete items--just hide them from your eyeballs. When you need to 
use the list again, just use the options on the EDIT menu to UNCHECK ALL. I 
love that feature.

• A "Show" Button:
A button with a popup list that will give you quick access to a list of 
items to Show/Hide. Examples that would be great to have are: Priority, 
Check Box/Bubble, Notes, Links, Due Date, Categories. Or maybe a default 
preference would activate with a tap to the button, with a Tap & Hold 
behavior to pop up the rest of the options list.

• Importing Memos and ToDos:
When importing Memos, instead of having to Graffiti in a title, is there 
any way to have the import utility grab the top line as a title--similar to 
what MemoPad already does?

      - Right now the first line gets trashed, so if you have several lists 
that don't refer to the parent (first line/title), how are you supposed to 
be able to tell which list it is? Having to Graffiti everything in is a 
pain. Even if I just had the option of being able to copy/paste the title 
would help a great deal

      - I like that you can select more than one Memo at a whack to import 
(so much faster!!), except that it keeps appending one Memo. I need the 
option to import everything as separate lists. This is another reason the 
first line/title needs to stay intact.  Best option (for me) would be to 
choose between grabbing separate Memos or appending one long one.

      - Should be able to select CATEGORIES & then individual files to 
choose from items within a category I've chosen. Otherwise I must scroll 
through all items in all categories. Way too much work

• Import/Export:
Until the desktop app is done, we've gotta have some kind of way to be able 
to export our outlines to Doc or HTML format, so that we can edit them from 
the desktop. And then we need to be able to get them back in again.

• Default Global Preferences:
  I don't remember who brought it up or how it was worded, but I think I 
understood someone saying that having default prefs set for a whole list, 
or even having the option of having global prefs for whole categories set 
would be way-cool. If they didn't say that, it's how I interpreted it and 
what I would be really interested in. Of course we'd still need the ability 
to change one thing or another for particular lists, but the next time I 
start a new list, it would be starting with my preferred

• File List View/Sorting:
Wish it had the ability to allow dragging/dropping of the outlines in the 
file list view, for sorting abilities. Barring that, I wish it would quit 
doing an autosort--let me select an outline anywhere in the list, tap the 
NEW button, then have the new outline name appear above/below that selected 
outline. Only trouble with that approach is that I'm sure to want something 
at the very top or the very bottom.

• List Preferences:
Barring Global Preferences abilities, I would like to be able to change 
list prefs (including the custom stuff) from the category level list menu 
in addition to changing them from within the actual list. This would save a 
couple of steps when wanting to change one aspects of all of my outlines--I 
could select the filename and make changes right there without opening, on 
the fly.

• Buttons:
There is a lot of room along the bottom button row to add more 
buttons/icons. One option would be to make the buttons smaller. In keeping 
with that thought, you could actually shorten the names of some of the 
buttons:

	- Details= DET or Det
	- Child = C
	- Zoom toggle = Z
	- N = Note
	- Delete = Del

• DONE Button (LIST View):
I know I've mentioned this a time or three.... but it just seems like in 
this case, it would make more sense to put it back over on the lefthand 
side where the OK buttons are. In fact, you could probably get away with 
naming it "OK," too. This would give the benefit of having a smaller button 
on that bottom row and would allow more room for my Zoom/UnZoom icon

• Suggest moving CHILD button to right & changing it to a small icon

• Same for DETAILS button or else abbreviate it

Other Stuff:

• Lifetime Upgrades: Everyone loves the idea of free lifetime upgrades for 
a program. But. Jeff, you've done proven yourself--you've let us know that 
you'll be here for the long haul and you're going to end up producing an 
awesome application. Have you given any consideration to revising this 
thinking of "free for a lifetime" upgrade thing (I know... probably 
everytime you get a list like mine, eh?)? Why not put this to a vote just 
like you do with program 'feechures'? I'd vote for upgrade fees for major 
upgrades. There is going to come a time when you'll be glad you tweaked 
this idea a bit. :-)

(sidenote: I wrote the paragraph above before I saw Jeff's post regarding 
the idea of charging for the desktop version. THAT would be one of the 
major upgrades I was referring to. There will be more of these majors in 
the future and I know for a fact that a huge percentage of us would rather 
pay you something for all this work. Have you considered getting a gorilla 
or two for the sympathy factor? <g>)

oooieoo
1408

From: Manfred Ell  <manfredell@y...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 9:03am
Subject: Re: Sort *only* the current branch?

 
On 03-07-2001 at 13:22:14 GMT -0400 (EDT) (which was 18:22 where I live)
Jeff Mitchell wrote regarding the subject of " Sort *only* the current branch?"
Using: N/A

Hello Jeff,

>> Anyone else wish Shadow could sort on a specific branch as an 
>> alternative to sorting the entire outline? In my main tasks outline, 
>> there are branches where a certain hierarchy or order must be 
>> preserved (hence I don't wish to sort there) but there are also 
>> branches where I would prefer to sort the entries alphabetically (by 
>> Title). I really wish I could sort *only those* branches. It was easy 
>> to do this in BF by sorting only on the "current branch".
>> Anyone else want to see this capability added to Shadow? Or am I 
>> missing something?

>         I can add a "Sort selection" menu option, if you'd like..

While you're at it, can you add the option to sort the untimed events
at the bottom of the list.

Regards

-- 
Manfred
___________________________________________________________________________
[ TheBat 1.53d (FE1905D5), Windows 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2 ]
1409

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Odd problem...

 
Hmm, you're using a 3rd party launcher and McPhling. Looks like
either or both *can* cause the problem (not enough time to fully
investigate, but this looks like the case). Many people have no problems
when using all 3 but some do. So far I don't think theres been a problem
(maybe one?) that didn't have a 3rd party launcher doing something odd
and/or McPhling. Very curious :/

	The next release will definitely have a warning when you activate
this feature.. "warning, if you use 3rd party launchers or some hacks, you
may have problems. If so, deactivate this feature!" and then when you
deactivate it it will ask you "reset to built in launcher?" ...

		jeff

On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, ~SS~ wrote:

> 
> > What launcher and OS version and Hacks are you using? I need to
> > figure out why this problem is happening on some small number of devices
> > :(
> > jeff
> 
> Here is what I'm running --
> Launcher:  HandScape Pro 1.5.0
> Palm OS : v3.5.2
> Hacks:  (TealMaster  1.10)
>     FindHack 3.0
>     McPhling 2.03
>     MiddleCapsHack 2.6
>     QLaunchHack 0.93s
> 
> Someone else had mentioned perhaps an interaction with Bonsai, which I also
> have.  It is version 1.0.7
> 
> To solve the problem I went into HandScape and rechecked "Launcher button
> will open HandScape".  All is back to normal for now!!
> annie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1410

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sort *only* the current branch?

 
On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Manfred Ell wrote:

> >> to do this in BF by sorting only on the "current branch".
> >> Anyone else want to see this capability added to Shadow? Or am I 
> >> missing something?
> 
> >         I can add a "Sort selection" menu option, if you'd like..
> 
> While you're at it, can you add the option to sort the untimed events
> at the bottom of the list.

	That opens a larger can of worms..

	Howabout you kick off a thread in the mailing list about Sorting,
to see if peopel want it changed at all in other ways. When I'll make a
batch of sorting changes. I need a vote for your proposed change beforeI
do  it .. can't just go changing something that people may depend on,
withotu a good solid vote :P

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1411

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 0:37pm
Subject: Re: New Desires

 
On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Learned wrote:

> To be honest, it might...I just put .11 on my palm, and have yet to
> play with that feature. I hate to have you wasting time on features
> that we can accomodate easily with what's there, so let me play
> with that a bit.

	Actually, a good point from Nancy .. Shadow can be told to launch
itself and load a specific list (launch-and-load!). Some launchers provide
this .. so that you can tap on a data file, and have the appropriate app
launch and show that datafile, regardless of where you left off. Maybe you
can do this, or something along these lines?

> If I buy you a (good) beer, can I influence the list order?
> <grin>

	heh. I'm sort of partial to Kilkenny right now :P

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1412

From: Manfred Ell  <manfredell@y...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Sort *only* the current branch?

 
On 04-07-2001 at 08:31:18 GMT -0400 (EDT) (which was 13:31 where I live)
Jeff Mitchell wrote regarding the subject of "Sort *only* the current branch?"
Using: N/A

Hello Jeff,

>> While you're at it, can you add the option to sort the untimed events
>> at the bottom of the list.

>         That opens a larger can of worms..

>         Howabout you kick off a thread in the mailing list about Sorting,
> to see if peopel want it changed at all in other ways. When I'll make a
> batch of sorting changes. I need a vote for your proposed change beforeI
> do  it .. can't just go changing something that people may depend on,
> withotu a good solid vote :P

I already did this a few days ago.

Regards

-- 
Manfred
___________________________________________________________________________
[ TheBat 1.53d (FE1905D5), Windows 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2 ]
1413

From: Carolyn Dean  <caro488@y...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 3:53pm
Subject: Re: Users Manual??

 
After downloading and installing shadow, I seem to
have deleted the fiel from my PC. Is there an
instruction book? I seem to have a problem getting
started...
SHould I download again??
Thanks C

--- Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2001, Learned wrote:
> 
> > An option to always start either in a selected
> shadow, or 
> > at the TOC so I can pick the Shadow to enter. I am
> trying
> > to get used to using an 'inbox' approach, and this
> would
> > make it faster.
> 
> 	I've thought about this a bit.. Does the "recent
> files" make this
> unnecessary? (ie: A tap or two away) I could add it
> to my todo list :P
> 
> > Second, the ability to just import a specific todo
> category
> > rather than the entire todo list. Again, this is
> with the 
> > thought of better managing 'inbox' type items.
> 
> 	Already on my list, though I'm not sure when I'll
> get to it.. not
> for awhile I imagine.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around
> in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control
> Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he
> calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 


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1414

From: Carolyn Dean  <caro488@y...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 4:22pm
Subject: Re: cut and paste

 
Sorry for what seems to me like a stupid question:
How do you cut and paste on a palm??????

TIA
C
'8^])

__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
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1415

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 4:24pm
Subject: Re: Users Manual??

 
On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Carolyn Dean wrote:

> After downloading and installing shadow, I seem to
> have deleted the fiel from my PC. Is there an
> instruction book? I seem to have a problem getting
> started...
> SHould I download again??

	If you wiped the file, then download again if you want it :) You
can also read a reasonably recent (maybe 100% recent) version on the
website if you don't wish to download it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1416

From: Learned  <learned@t...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 6:17pm
Subject: Re: New Desires

 
Quoting Jeff Mitchell (support@s...):
> 
> 	heh. I'm sort of partial to Kilkenny right now :P
> 

Ahhh, good taste in beer too...I think we can deal.
1417

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 6:32pm
Subject: Re: cut and paste

 
On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Carolyn Dean wrote:

> Sorry for what seems to me like a stupid question:
> How do you cut and paste on a palm??????

	On a palm, or in Shadow?

	I'm assuming you mean in Shadow .. just pick an item in list view,
and then under the Edit menu are various clipboard operations like Copy or
Cut. Additionally, there is a little [C] icon in the top right that lets
you do many of the same operations a little quicker. This is the Shadow
item clipboard.

	If you plan on just copy/cutting/pasting text, from say an item
title or note, then when in the detail window you select/hilight the text
to work on, and then use the Edit pulldown menu again, or some shortcuts,
to copy/cut/paste text itself. This is the palm wide text clipboard.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1418

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Freebies!

 
The english translation is at the bottom..
  
        http://www.palmtop-pro.com/magazine/fehlersuche_024.htm
  
        An excerpt from the page is as follows. Feel free to forward to   
everyone you know :)

Its Summer -- Warm that BBQ!

Palmtop-Pro and Codejedi are thinking that you need to spend more time    
with the barbeque than with your PDA. Time saving software is one way to  
do this - but being a lazy steamy summer, who wants to reach into their   
wallet for a credit card, when you can get free stuff? Just head on over  
to the Palmtop-Pro website, find the mistake on the cover page of actual   
issue 24 and let us know what it is! The first 5 to correctly identify the
mistake will receive themselves a copy of Shadow Plan!
                
                jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1419

From: davlir@y...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 2:40am
Subject: Re: Sort *only* the current branch?

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 davlir@y... wrote:
> 

> 
> 	I can add a "Sort selection" menu option, if you'd like..
> 
> 		jeff
> 

Hi Jeff,

Hope this reply actually goes out. I tried replying to Ricardo's post 
*twice*, but Yahoo seems to have eaten those messages (Sorry, 
Ricardo). Anyway, a "Sort selection" menu option would be FANTASTIC! 
Please do add it, as soon as you've got the time. BTW, *loving* 
Shadow...

Regards...

-David.
1420

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 3:51am
Subject: Question Re: Categories

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	It still remains.. how many people use the todo list after getting
> Shadow? How tightly should Shadow be bound? (ie: Supporting categories is
> strictly out of scope for Shadow .. in theory, following other threads
> like date-time support, I should say that you can simply goto/return the
> todo app, and assign your category there). The question of
> which-app-is-best is tough :/

Jeff,

The answer, at least from the standpoint of GtD users is - MOST.  The issue is, as I tried to describe in my original post, Shadow currently provides NICE, AWESOME views of branches.  The problem is that it doesn't work very well for QUICK maintenance of leaves.  (Please refer to my original post if the branches/leaves meaning is not truly clear to you).

To be clear, in ToDo, if I have my "leaves" well defined, I can do two taps to see my list of leaves in ANY category.  In Shadow, I am constantly going in and out of files, and in each file, expanding (or zooming in on) particular branches.  This is just flat too time consuming for what I need to do.  I -*NEED*- the ability to quickly review and maintain my leaves.  There are times when I need to do this in the context of the trees they live in (Shadow), but for me, that is a once a week or at most once per day activity.

I -*WOULD*- use Shadow for my leaf management/review process (and would LOVE to), but I would need a Shadow wide (read: ALL .PDB file wide) leaf view in Shadow, with quick category switching capability.  That is a fairly large investement of time on your part, and I am truly not certain of whether that is a direction you would want to go (not to even SPEAK of how long it would take to implement given what all you have on the table).

The key right now to the GtD crowd is QUICK maintenance of their leaves.  Speed is TRULY key.  Reality is, you provide all of the functionality we need through either functions directly in Shadow, or in what Shadow links to.  The reason this doesn't work for the GtD crowd is that we need to be able to go in, review, maintain, add these "next action" items in a VERY short period of time.  The proposal I made isn't perfect, but I made it with the following VERY VERY clearly in my mind: "What is the fastest possible way, they EASIEST possible way I could request that Jeff add support for next action items in Shadow without making changes to Shadow that would not be needed later on in time."  - I did NOT want to make a request that would be superceded by something you already had planned.  I also wanted (if even remotely possible) to make a proposal of a change that could be implemented in a (yes, yes, I know, I didn't write Shadow, I just mean this from what little knowledge I do have of it) short period of time.

Let me know what ya think.

-Joe Chott
1421

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 3:59am
Subject: Re: Question Re: Categories

 
For what it's worth, this isn't just a GtD issue. If you look around the 
various outliner forums it seems like we're all asking for variations of 
the same thing.

o.


At 08:51 PM 07/04/2001, you wrote:
>--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> >       It still remains.. how many people use the todo list after getting
> > Shadow? How tightly should Shadow be bound? (ie: Supporting categories is
> > strictly out of scope for Shadow .. in theory, following other threads
> > like date-time support, I should say that you can simply goto/return the
> > todo app, and assign your category there). The question of
> > which-app-is-best is tough :/
>
>Jeff,
>
>The answer, at least from the standpoint of GtD users is - MOST.  The 
>issue is, as I tried to describe in my original post, Shadow currently 
>provides NICE, AWESOME views of branches.  The problem is that it doesn't 
>work very well for QUICK maintenance of leaves.  (Please refer to my 
>original post if the branches/leaves meaning is not truly clear to you).

<snip'd the rest for brevity's sake>
1422

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 7:46am
Subject: Re: Question Re: Categories

 
On 2001-07-05 at 03:51, verxion@p... wrote:

> The answer, at least from the standpoint of GtD users is - MOST.  The
> issue is, as I tried to describe in my original post, Shadow currently
> provides NICE, AWESOME views of branches.  The problem is that it
> doesn't work very well for QUICK maintenance of leaves.  (Please refer
> to my original post if the branches/leaves meaning is not truly clear
> to you).

I'll agree on this one ... I'm using the Todo application for one reason: give a
quick overview of each category.

I don't know what would be the best way of implementing this ... but what I
would do would be to implement a few things that you have previously mentioned: 

+   A flat view where only the leaves are display

+   The ability to define custom filters

+   The ability to save a combination of filters and views

In this way I could define a filter that filters out the tasks in a certain
category, and within a certain timeframe, define a custom view that displayed
them in the way I want and then save this view.

The different views could then be selected from a custom view pull-down or in
the 'v' menu.

                    jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1423

From: David Keltie  <dave@z...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 10:51am
Subject: RE: Question Re: Categories

 
Do I miss the point? I use ToDo+ to manage what the GtD folk call 'next
action' items. Changing them there, changes them in Shadow. And only a
click away.

Maybe I'm strange, but I hate Datebook 4 precisely because you can spend
ages configuring the thing without improving real functionality. Please
don't bloat Shadow with endless options. Keep it simple on the Palm side
- what can be done with links is AWESOME. (But then I use it as a
planner - not as a substitute for what's already on my palm).

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: verxion@p... [mailto:verxion@p...] 
Sent: 05 July 2001 04:51
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Question Re: Categories


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	It still remains.. how many people use the todo list after
getting 
> Shadow? How tightly should Shadow be bound? (ie: Supporting categories

> is strictly out of scope for Shadow .. in theory, following other 
> threads like date-time support, I should say that you can simply 
> goto/return the todo app, and assign your category there). The 
> question of which-app-is-best is tough :/
1424

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Question Re: Categories

 
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> The answer, at least from the standpoint of GtD users is - MOST.  The
> issue is, as I tried to describe in my original post, Shadow currently
> provides NICE, AWESOME views of branches.  The problem is that it
> doesn't work very well for QUICK maintenance of leaves.  (Please refer
> to my original post if the branches/leaves meaning is not truly clear
> to you).

	Your'e a compelling bastard aren't ya ;)

> "next action" items in a VERY short period of time.  The proposal I
> made isn't perfect, but I made it with the following VERY VERY clearly
> in my mind: "What is the fastest possible way, they EASIEST possible
> way I could request that Jeff add support for next action items in
> Shadow without making changes to Shadow that would not be needed later

	Which proposal was this, anyway? I spent 3 days catching up on
email (go away for 4 days, behind already for 1 day.. so maybe 5-6 days of
email buildup. Then spend 3 days wokring hard, many hours each, to catch
up? Thats not right :P) so I've lost thread context. Its all in my todo
list, but I'm off to a meeting in a minute and can't think :P

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1425

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 1:17pm
Subject: Question Re: Categories

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Your'e a compelling bastard aren't ya ;)

I am really trying to explain what I consider to be truly "compelling" reasons for these changes.

> 	Which proposal was this, anyway? I spent 3 days catching up on
> email (go away for 4 days, behind already for 1 day.. so maybe 5-6 days of
> email buildup. Then spend 3 days wokring hard, many hours each, to catch
> up? Thats not right :P) so I've lost thread context. Its all in my todo
> list, but I'm off to a meeting in a minute and can't think :P

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shadow-discuss/message/1382

Thanks for reading and considering what I wrote.

-Joe Chott
1426

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 1:18pm
Subject: Question Re: Categories

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "David Keltie" <dave@z...> wrote:
> Do I miss the point? I use ToDo+ to manage what the GtD folk call 'next
> action' items. Changing them there, changes them in Shadow. And only a
> click away.

You didn't miss the point.  You hit it head on.  Jeff Mitchell was asking (among other things) if people really used other to-do applications once they got Shadow.  You (like, I believe, most) use another program to continue to manage "leaves".

-Joe Chott
1427

From: cdraus@y...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 2:56pm
Subject: Question Re: Categories

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	It still remains.. how many people use the todo list after 
getting
> Shadow? How tightly should Shadow be bound? (ie: Supporting 
categories is
> strictly out of scope for Shadow .. in theory, following other 
threads
> like date-time support, I should say that you can simply 
goto/return the
> todo app, and assign your category there). The question of
> which-app-is-best is tough :/

As another GTD method user, I use Shadow for my projects and the Todo 
list (using ToDo+) for my Next Actions. My ToDo list categories are 
setup as my Next Action contexts (@Errands, @Computer, etc.). Since 
the context of each Next Action item for a project (i.e. the category 
of each ToDo linked to a Shadow outline item) will more often than 
not vary, it would be nice to be able to set the category while 
setting up the ToDo link within Shadow. That would save me a couple 
of steps for each Next Action I've decided on, which would be quite a 
significant savings.

User interface wise, it seems like this feature would fit right into 
the Link Add dialog box that's already present in v1.5.6 for Address 
and Memo links.

- Carl Draus
1428

From: Moira Grunwell  <moira@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 3:01pm
Subject: RE: Question Re: Categories

 
I definitely agree.  An addition drop down choice in the Link to To-Do
option would be a huge time saver.


Moira

-----Original Message-----
From: cdraus@y... [mailto:cdraus@y...]
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:57 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Question Re: Categories


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	It still remains.. how many people use the todo list after 
getting
> Shadow? How tightly should Shadow be bound? (ie: Supporting 
categories is
> strictly out of scope for Shadow .. in theory, following other 
threads
> like date-time support, I should say that you can simply 
goto/return the
> todo app, and assign your category there). The question of
> which-app-is-best is tough :/

As another GTD method user, I use Shadow for my projects and the Todo 
list (using ToDo+) for my Next Actions. My ToDo list categories are 
setup as my Next Action contexts (@Errands, @Computer, etc.). Since 
the context of each Next Action item for a project (i.e. the category 
of each ToDo linked to a Shadow outline item) will more often than 
not vary, it would be nice to be able to set the category while 
setting up the ToDo link within Shadow. That would save me a couple 
of steps for each Next Action I've decided on, which would be quite a 
significant savings.

User interface wise, it seems like this feature would fit right into 
the Link Add dialog box that's already present in v1.5.6 for Address 
and Memo links.

- Carl Draus


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1429

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 3:18pm
Subject: Todo categories

 
Re .. previous discussions..

	Shadow itself doesnt' care about todo categories; storing them in
Shadow itself was a way to make your life easier during link
creation.. but previous thoughts go like this:

	1) Optionally set a todo cat in details
	2) Go establish a link, which would pick up the set cat, or if
unset, climb up the tree picking the nearest parents category

	Its several steps.

	However.. Shadow doesn't care about cats. Also, how often will you
create a link, remove it, create it again, etc.

	Perhaps it shoudl be like this:

	1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
	2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
	3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
	4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup list
of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send it to
right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-column when
activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can create
todo links to see if it makes sense..

	Is this a better idea? invasive, but I'm wondering what the
expected usage patterns are.. if most people just want to "link to
todo" and "set category" once for a given item, and both together, perhaps
this makes sense. Previous ideas were based on my usages and some
flexibility thoughts..

	But perhaps I'm getting too flexible again :P

	USe the list default, or pop up, depending on that pref. If pref
active, pop up the lsit of todo cats, and default to lsit default, but let
you pick. Poof.

	Good? Does that make everyone happy for todo cats?

	I'm not expecting a todo cat column option, since you shoudl
manage cats in your todo programs, but Shadow can make that first creation
easier..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1430

From: Moira Grunwell  <moira@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 3:26pm
Subject: RE: Todo categories

 
That would work for me.


Moira

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Mitchell [mailto:support@s...]
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:18 AM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shadow-discuss] Todo categories



	Re .. previous discussions..

	Shadow itself doesnt' care about todo categories; storing them in
Shadow itself was a way to make your life easier during link
creation.. but previous thoughts go like this:

	1) Optionally set a todo cat in details
	2) Go establish a link, which would pick up the set cat, or if
unset, climb up the tree picking the nearest parents category

	Its several steps.

	However.. Shadow doesn't care about cats. Also, how often will you
create a link, remove it, create it again, etc.

	Perhaps it shoudl be like this:

	1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
	2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
	3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
	4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup list
of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send it to
right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-column when
activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can create
todo links to see if it makes sense..

	Is this a better idea? invasive, but I'm wondering what the
expected usage patterns are.. if most people just want to "link to
todo" and "set category" once for a given item, and both together, perhaps
this makes sense. Previous ideas were based on my usages and some
flexibility thoughts..

	But perhaps I'm getting too flexible again :P

	USe the list default, or pop up, depending on that pref. If pref
active, pop up the lsit of todo cats, and default to lsit default, but let
you pick. Poof.

	Good? Does that make everyone happy for todo cats?

	I'm not expecting a todo cat column option, since you shoudl
manage cats in your todo programs, but Shadow can make that first creation
easier..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
1431

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 3:50pm
Subject: Re: Todo categories

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	1) Optionally set a todo cat in details
> 	2) Go establish a link, which would pick up the set cat, or if
> unset, climb up the tree picking the nearest parents category

This seems to me to be quite workable.  This would fulfill what I think people would "expect" as their methodology given other palm apps.

> 	Perhaps it shoudl be like this:
> 
> 	1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
> 	2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
> 	3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
> 	4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup list
> of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send it to
> right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-column when
> activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can create
> todo links to see if it makes sense..

This seems quickest.  This is what I would vote for if we only got one or the other.  My only question would be - once established, how would we CHANGE the category?  Either in our to-do app or through an unlink/re-link, right?  I am just thinking it might be useful to have SOME way (perhaps detail view) to see/change what the cat is from Shadow Plan itself.  But I will CERTAINLY live with the pop-up if that is all we can get for now.  :)

-Joe Chott

P.S. THANK YOU for listening on this.  I think you can see there is a lot of interest in it.
1432

From: rdavis@d...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Todo categories

 
I like the idea of being able to select a ToDo category at the time 
of making a link from the categories managed through the ToDo 
application.

I'm working on David Allen's GTD methodology.  As my in-tray gets 
filled from various directions I use Shadow for my "Projects" and the 
built in ToDo app (either native or via Datebk4 split screen) to 
manage my next Actions.  That way all my actions get synched to my 
Outlook tasks to get the while thing done.

Today my default ToDo category is "Unfiled".  Having created the link 
in Shadow, I follow it to the ToDo app, set the category I want 
(calls, errands, etc.) then use switchHack to get back to where I was 
in Shadow.

Richard.

> 	Perhaps it shoudl be like this:
> 
> 	1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
> 	2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
> 	3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
> 	4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup 
list
> of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send 
it to
> right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-
column when
> activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can 
create
> todo links to see if it makes sense..
> 
> 	Is this a better idea? invasive, but I'm wondering what the
> expected usage patterns are.. if most people just want to "link to
> todo" and "set category" once for a given item, and both together, 
perhaps
> this makes sense. Previous ideas were based on my usages and some
> flexibility thoughts..
> 
> 	But perhaps I'm getting too flexible again :P
> 
> 	USe the list default, or pop up, depending on that pref. If 
pref
> active, pop up the lsit of todo cats, and default to lsit default, 
but let
> you pick. Poof.
> 
> 	Good? Does that make everyone happy for todo cats?
> 
> 	I'm not expecting a todo cat column option, since you shoudl
> manage cats in your todo programs, but Shadow can make that first 
creation
> easier..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1433

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 5:31pm
Subject: Re: Todo categories

 
On 2001-07-05 at 11:18, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

>   1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
>   2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
>   3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
>   4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup list
> of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send it to
> right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-column when
> activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can create
> todo links to see if it makes sense..

This would work for me

            jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1434

From: Carl Draus  <cdraus@y...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 7:27pm
Subject: Re: Todo categories

 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jeff Mitchell 
>      USe the list default, or pop up, depending on that pref. If pref
> active, pop up the lsit of todo cats, and default to lsit default, but let
> you pick. Poof.

This one would satisfy my needs. I just want to be able to set the category during link creation. If the category needs to be changed, it's easy enough to either do it in the ToDo app, or from within Shadow, delete the link and recreate it.

- Carl Draus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1435

From: drumgirl313@y...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 8:36pm
Subject: My Wishes

 
Jeff, I see on various egroups that a lot of people are using datebk4 in
conjunction with Shadow.  One of the main reasons I registered Shadow was
that it linked to my todo list and datebook and tapping the link would jump
directly to the entry in datebk4.  I am wishing, tho, for a couple of more
integrated features between the apps...

1.  Icons - I wish I could see the attached icon for a todo in the shadow
outline as well.  Since the icon is part of the code in the note field,
would this be a reasonable request?

2.  Links...  I have a lot of links, but this is my problem.  If I create an
item in shadow with an address book link and then link it to the datebk, the
link is no longer viewable once I exit shadow and open the datebook.  And if
I make the link in datebk4, and then import the item into shadow, I have to
recreate the link through shadow.  It means I have to make the link to the
same address in both apps for a single entry.  Is there any possibility that
you could use the same coding as datebk4 that would read the info in the
note field and create the link so that creating it in either shadow or
datebk4 makes it viewable in both apps?

These are just ideas.  I know not everyone uses datebk4 and all that - it's
just a thought.  Whether it happens or not will in no way influence whether
I use shadow or not.  I still think shadow is the best by far - thanks for
all your hard work :)
Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
********************************************



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1436

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 9:25pm
Subject: Re: My Wishes

 
Hi Gretchen!  :)

I don't presume to speak for Jeff on this, but I can tell you what I have s=
een from his posts in the past (and he seems to be quite busy right now so I=
 thought I would send you something in the interim).

From what I know, Jeff is an Action Names user.  He doesn't use Datebk4.  T=
hat is -*NOT*- to say that Jeff doesn't try to support his users regardless =
of what they prefer, but the point is, he isn't doing Action Names specific =
features EVEN THOUGH it is his tool of choice for such things.

In the past, Jeff has said that he is hesitant to implement features that a=
re other app specific (things like icons in Datebk4, since the same solution=
 wouldn't work for Action Names).  Additionally, as regards the linking - Ac=
tion Names provides links as well, but users of Action Names have to double =
link too.  The point is, there isn't currently a standard linking methodolog=
y for the Palm on a system wide basis.  As a result, everyone does their lin=
king differently.  This makes it pretty hard for Jeff to support every app o=
ut there.

I myself use Datebk4, and I would LOVE to be able to have the links work in=
 both directions.  Fact of the matter is, they don't, and I haven't seen thi=
s be a high priority for Jeff given the direction he has stated in the past.=


As a workaround, I myself (using the GtD methodology) use Datebk4 to manage=
 my TIME CRITICAL events.  It is where I go for the "hard fast appointments"=
 in my life.  If a given appointment needs to be linked, I link it to a cont=
act, but I do that in Datebk4.  I don't have ANY linkage in Shadow to my app=
ointments.  To review my upcoming hard/fast appointments, I look in Datebk4.=


YES, this could be made a ton simpler if Jeff put the functionality into Sh=
adow Plan.  But in a very real sense, the net result of the requests along t=
hese lines end up being a request for duplication of MOST of the memopad, da=
tebook and todo apps into Shadow.  Jeff has taken the angle of linking to th=
em and letting you modify the content of what you linked to in the other app=
.  In the case of the link of an appointment itself to contacts, that falls =
into the lap of Datebk4 itself.

-Joe Chott

P.S. Another way to look at this is - why couldn't Datebk4 duplicate ITS li=
nks in Shadow Plan?  The answer is the same - CESD can't very well support e=
very other app that deals with appointments on the Palm.  :)

P.P.S. Jeff obviously could change his mind and state that he will do some =
of what you request here.  I myself requested what you wrote about rougly 2 =
months ago, and that is when Jeff informed me of his directional intent with=
 Shadow Plan.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., <drumgirl313@y...> wrote:
> Jeff, I see on various egroups that a lot of people are using datebk4 in
> conjunction with Shadow.  One of the main reasons I registered Shadow was=

> that it linked to my todo list and datebook and tapping the link would ju=
mp
> directly to the entry in datebk4.  I am wishing, tho, for a couple of mor=
e
> integrated features between the apps...
> 
> 1.  Icons - I wish I could see the attached icon for a todo in the shadow=

> outline as well.  Since the icon is part of the code in the note field,
> would this be a reasonable request?
> 
> 2.  Links...  I have a lot of links, but this is my problem.  If I create=
 an
> item in shadow with an address book link and then link it to the datebk, =
the
> link is no longer viewable once I exit shadow and open the datebook.  And=
 if
> I make the link in datebk4, and then import the item into shadow, I have =
to
> recreate the link through shadow.  It means I have to make the link to th=
e
> same address in both apps for a single entry.  Is there any possibility t=
hat
> you could use the same coding as datebk4 that would read the info in the
> note field and create the link so that creating it in either shadow or
> datebk4 makes it viewable in both apps?
> 
> These are just ideas.  I know not everyone uses datebk4 and all that - it=
's
> just a thought.  Whether it happens or not will in no way influence wheth=
er
> I use shadow or not.  I still think shadow is the best by far - thanks fo=
r
> all your hard work :)
> Gretchen
> 
> http://pugnut.tripod.com
> ********************************************
> Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
> ********************************************
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1437

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 9:32pm
Subject: Re: My Wishes

 
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 drumgirl313@y... wrote:

> Jeff, I see on various egroups that a lot of people are using datebk4 in
> conjunction with Shadow.  One of the main reasons I registered Shadow was
> that it linked to my todo list and datebook and tapping the link would jump
> directly to the entry in datebk4.  I am wishing, tho, for a couple of more
> integrated features between the apps...
> 
> 1.  Icons - I wish I could see the attached icon for a todo in the shadow
> outline as well.  Since the icon is part of the code in the note field,
> would this be a reasonable request?

	Reasonable - yes, of course. Will it happen soon? Hard to say
.. ie: Its a fair amount of work, and it only benefits DB4 users and not
users of the built in DB, or Action Names (which has its own system), or
other apps.. I'm reluctant to benefit only one app at this time...

> 2.  Links...  I have a lot of links, but this is my problem.  If I create an
> item in shadow with an address book link and then link it to the datebk, the
> link is no longer viewable once I exit shadow and open the datebook.  And if
> I make the link in datebk4, and then import the item into shadow, I have to
> recreate the link through shadow.  It means I have to make the link to the
> same address in both apps for a single entry.  Is there any possibility that
> you could use the same coding as datebk4 that would read the info in the
> note field and create the link so that creating it in either shadow or
> datebk4 makes it viewable in both apps?

	Can you find out details about it? This sounds pretty easy to
implement...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1438

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: My Wishes

 
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I don't presume to speak for Jeff on this, but I can tell you what I have s=

	heh. Feel free to speak up -- I try and keep on top of things, but
if the mailing list folks help each other, its a lot less work for me ;)

> >From what I know, Jeff is an Action Names user.  He doesn't use Datebk4.  T=

	I use various things. I use AN solely for its handy integrated
week view. I only use it for this because I got it free (and they got
Shadow free).... so I use it just like any other datebook app for that
view, except AN's is prettier. I would've just used the built in datebook,
likely, as DB4 is large and clunky for my simple datebooking needs
(everything I do is in Shadow ;)

> hat is -*NOT*- to say that Jeff doesn't try to support his users regardless =
> of what they prefer, but the point is, he isn't doing Action Names specific =
> features EVEN THOUGH it is his tool of choice for such things.

	Well said and absolutely true.

> tion Names provides links as well, but users of Action Names have to double =
> link too.  The point is, there isn't currently a standard linking methodolog=
> y for the Palm on a system wide basis.  As a result, everyone does their lin=
> king differently.  This makes it pretty hard for Jeff to support every app o=
> ut there.

	Definitely true.

> I myself use Datebk4, and I would LOVE to be able to have the links work in=
>  both directions.  Fact of the matter is, they don't, and I haven't seen thi=
> s be a high priority for Jeff given the direction he has stated in the past.=

	I'm wondering though .. if its an extremely simple format
.. ie: some gobbledegook and a big number, then I coudl perhaps export
it. Picking it up on the way in.... maybe.

>  my TIME CRITICAL events.  It is where I go for the "hard fast appointments"=
>  in my life.  If a given appointment needs to be linked, I link it to a cont=
> act, but I do that in Datebk4.  I don't have ANY linkage in Shadow to my app=
> ointments.  To review my upcoming hard/fast appointments, I look in Datebk4.=

	This is a pretty solid way to do it.

> YES, this could be made a ton simpler if Jeff put the functionality into Sh=
> adow Plan.  But in a very real sense, the net result of the requests along t=
> hese lines end up being a request for duplication of MOST of the memopad, da=
> tebook and todo apps into Shadow.  Jeff has taken the angle of linking to th=
> em and letting you modify the content of what you linked to in the other app=
> .  In the case of the link of an appointment itself to contacts, that falls =
> into the lap of Datebk4 itself.

	You know, if folks like you wish to help out in the lists, I'd get
a lot more done ;) Nice job, and thanks.

> P.P.S. Jeff obviously could change his mind and state that he will do some =
> of what you request here.  I myself requested what you wrote about rougly 2 =
> months ago, and that is when Jeff informed me of his directional intent with=
>  Shadow Plan.

	If only there were more standards.

	How would icons show in Shadow? Woudl they be useful? Do they help
at all?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1439

From: solmar@l...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 10:33pm
Subject: Desktop version

 
I'm new to ShadowPlan and this group, but already see how this could make
not just my own, but my teenaged kids' lives simpler, by providing a
simple, well thought out organizational tool for all that school "stuff".
However, since they don't have PDAs (Grinch that I am), I'm hoping for a
desktop version--BUT, we use Macs--any hope for such an app/version? Joyce
1440

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: Re: Desktop version

 
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 solmar@l... wrote:

> I'm new to ShadowPlan and this group, but already see how this could make
> not just my own, but my teenaged kids' lives simpler, by providing a
> simple, well thought out organizational tool for all that school "stuff".
> However, since they don't have PDAs (Grinch that I am), I'm hoping for a
> desktop version--BUT, we use Macs--any hope for such an app/version? Joyce

	The desktop application when it comes out will be for several
platforms, including Mac... however, I'm betting there are some pretty
good free desktop applications already. The shadow dekstop app will reall
ybe targeted for those familiar with Shadow, using shadow, or who want to
use Shadow later .. but we'll see.. ultimately it should stand on its
own.. but that'll take time to evolve to.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1441

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 11:43pm
Subject: Re: My Wishes

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Reasonable - yes, of course. Will it happen soon? Hard to say
> .. ie: Its a fair amount of work, and it only benefits DB4 users and not
> users of the built in DB, or Action Names (which has its own system), or
> other apps.. I'm reluctant to benefit only one app at this time...

Jeff,

I spent quite a bit of time searching the archives of the datebk4 mailing list and couldn't find specs for how he does the linking of the icons.  I will see what I can find out (sent an email directly to CESD) and I will let you know.  (I am looking for info on both icons and linking, and YES, it should be dirt simple once I have the info)

I don't have Action Names so can't really look into that one very easily. . .

-Joe Chott
1442

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 11:48pm
Subject: Re: My Wishes

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	I'm wondering though .. if its an extremely simple format
> .. ie: some gobbledegook and a big number, then I coudl perhaps export
> it. Picking it up on the way in.... maybe.

So far all I know is that the first line of the attached note has TWO pound symbols - that is how you know it is a link/icon.  As far as the format of what remains on the line, I am still working on getting that info.
 
> > YES, this could be made a ton simpler if Jeff put the functionality into Sh=
> > adow Plan.  But in a very real sense, the net result of the requests along t=
> > hese lines end up being a request for duplication of MOST of the memopad, da=
> > tebook and todo apps into Shadow.  Jeff has taken the angle of linking to th=
> > em and letting you modify the content of what you linked to in the other app=
> > .  In the case of the link of an appointment itself to contacts, that falls =
> > into the lap of Datebk4 itself.
> 
> 	You know, if folks like you wish to help out in the lists, I'd get
> a lot more done ;) Nice job, and thanks.

Jeff, truth be told, I am being greedy.  I want some features, and I -*KNOW*- it takes your time.  If helping with some posts on the message board will give you more time, I am willing to do that when I myself have time.

> 	How would icons show in Shadow? Woudl they be useful? Do they help
> at all?

Well, in Datebk4, you can only have one icon per appointment, but in Shadow, conceivably you could have more than one appointment linked per list element. . .  It seems to me that you could have an optional "column" that displays icons, and it would only display (say) the first links' icon.  As far as being useful, being any help at all - I would say they are precisely as useful within Shadow as they are within Datebk4 - they help you tell what you are looking at at a glance.  Unfortunately, a lot of the benefits in Datebk4 would mean MORE Datebk4 specific coding in Shadow - things like filtering based upon icons.  I leave it to you to decide how much or little of what Datebk4 icons provide you wish to implement in Shadow.

-Joe Chott
1443

From: opitz@s...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 1:51am
Subject: DateBk4 Links (was Re: My Wishes)

 
In this message, CESD gave some description of how the links are done:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pimlicodatebk/message/9723

but he said he hasn't documented well because he intends to change it 
soon. (He's mentioned having a major upgrade by late this year.)

Bob Opitz



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 	Reasonable - yes, of course. Will it happen soon? Hard to say
> > .. ie: Its a fair amount of work, and it only benefits DB4 users 
and not
> > users of the built in DB, or Action Names (which has its own 
system), or
> > other apps.. I'm reluctant to benefit only one app at this time...
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I spent quite a bit of time searching the archives of the datebk4 
mailing list and couldn't find specs for how he does the linking of 
the icons.  I will see what I can find out (sent an email directly to 
CESD) and I will let you know.  (I am looking for info on both icons 
and linking, and YES, it should be dirt simple once I have the info)
> 
> I don't have Action Names so can't really look into that one very 
easily. . .
> 
> -Joe Chott
1444

From: ext555@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 2:01am
Subject: DateBk4 Links (was Re: My Wishes)

 
I think he said the fall of this year 4.1 of Datebk4,  as for Action 
Names Icons, all I ever noticed in note field were straight numbers 
like  An#132 etc.   When I used that app I think I tried to put the 
number in a blank note field and it did create the Icon in AN--not 
sure how that works though

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., opitz@s... wrote:
> In this message, CESD gave some description of how the links are 
done:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pimlicodatebk/message/9723
> 
> but he said he hasn't documented well because he intends to change 
it 
> soon. (He's mentioned having a major upgrade by late this year.)
> 
> Bob Opitz
> 
> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> > --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > > 	Reasonable - yes, of course. Will it happen soon? Hard to say
> > > .. ie: Its a fair amount of work, and it only benefits DB4 
users 
> and not
> > > users of the built in DB, or Action Names (which has its own 
> system), or
> > > other apps.. I'm reluctant to benefit only one app at this 
time...
> > 
> > Jeff,
> > 
> > I spent quite a bit of time searching the archives of the datebk4 
> mailing list and couldn't find specs for how he does the linking of 
> the icons.  I will see what I can find out (sent an email directly 
to 
> CESD) and I will let you know.  (I am looking for info on both 
icons 
> and linking, and YES, it should be dirt simple once I have the info)
> > 
> > I don't have Action Names so can't really look into that one very 
> easily. . .
> > 
> > -Joe Chott
1445

From: boudewyns@b...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 2:02am
Subject: New messages are red!

 
I feel silly I can't figure this out, but some of my new enties in 
Shadow come out red, some are black. I can't seem to enforce 
uniformly my preferred black. I'm using 1,5,6.

Suggestions appreciated. Please be kind.

Bob
1446

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 3:17am
Subject: Re: New messages are red!

 
I am afraid I am at a loss as to why this would be happening.  If you tap on "New", you should see in the lower right of the resulting screen a box next to a button labeled "B".  The box is the color of what you are about to create.  I don't know of any way to make this default to ANYTHING but black.  All I can suggest is to look at that on the notes of yours that are red and the ones that are black and see if it reflects the colors you are seeing.

Another possibility (somewhat remote) is that you are having a problem with the background colors.  Try going to List->Preferences for the list you are having trouble with and see if unchecking "Col-bg" has any effect on your situation.  If it doesn't, put it back how it was.

Sorry, but that is about all I can think of right now.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., boudewyns@b... wrote:
> I feel silly I can't figure this out, but some of my new enties in 
> Shadow come out red, some are black. I can't seem to enforce 
> uniformly my preferred black. I'm using 1,5,6.
> 
> Suggestions appreciated. Please be kind.
> 
> Bob
1447

From: irrsinn@y...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 3:18am
Subject: Re: HELP! - Can't Open Files On New CLIE

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 mark@M... wrote:
> 
> > Been using ShadowPlan on my Visor Prism and worked great. This 
weekend I 
> > bought a new Sony CLIE 710C. Transfered my files over to it and 
most things 
> > work fine. However, when I try to open my ShadowPlan files that I 
created on 
> > Prism on the CLIE I get an error message:
> > 
> > "Bad Load!
> > 
> > The list could not be loaded !"
> > 
> > I am able to create a new list from scratch.
> > 
> > I would like to be able to open my old files as I did a lot of 
work on them.
> 
> 	Are you sure you've installed the latest version of
> Shadow? (ie: An older version of Shadow may not be able to load 
files
> created on a newer version...)  If you're running 1.5.6 say, then 
you
> shoudl be able to work on any Shadow file, unless it is very old 
(from 1.3
> or 1.2 say, in which case oyu need to follow a few upgrades to get 
the
> files updated). The only other option is your files are corrupted.. 
but I
> bet you need only upgrade your Shadow..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

I am having a similar problem with a Clie 710C.  My old Palm was a 
Vx, running 1.5.6 (where all the files were created).  I receive no 
error message--my Palm just freezes and I have to do a soft reset.  I 
can create new files, but when I add something to them or re-open 
them, the Palm freezes.  I have tried beaming the files from Shadow 
Plan itself and from BeamWare, neither of which worked.  Any 
suggestions?

Lissa
1448

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 3:31am
Subject: Re: HELP! - Can't Open Files On New CLIE

 
What program(s) or hardware did you use to back up your Vx and then restore to your Clie?  I know for instance that some of the configuration information should NOT be restored.

I have upgraded MANY MANY palms in my day, and what I have found works best is the following:

1. Do a complete and total backup of my previous unit with Backup Buddy.

2. If at ALL possible, purchase my new unit while I still have possession of my older one.

3. Move my backup directory OUT of the palm directory on my computer.  Uninstall Backup Buddy, uninstall palm desktop.

4. Install new palm desktop from new palm company.  Install latest backup buddy software.

5. Do a hotsynch of my brand new palm with none of my previous data or programs in it yet.

6. Go to the old hotsynch directory that I moved out of the palm directory, and tell all software to re-install to my new palm EXCEPT for saved and unsaved preferences.  (This means all my program .PRC files and all of my data .PDB files)  Special care should be taken to NOT install .PRC's that are Palm model specific.

7. Now try the software on the new Palm.  Go through each program one at a time, ensure the data is still there, and make sure they are properly registered (Their registration is PROBABLY gone due to your not restoring the preferences and saved preferences).

8. This SHOULD result in a nicely working Palm with you old programs and data.

These steps may not help you, I don't know.  The steps may not be possible for you at this point.  I am just offering them up as a possible way to "get there from here".

If you didn't follow a similar process to what I outlined above, can you describe how you DID get your data from the old palm to the new one?  Perhaps some portion of that description will help determine what happened.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., irrsinn@y... wrote:
> I am having a similar problem with a Clie 710C.  My old Palm was a 
> Vx, running 1.5.6 (where all the files were created).  I receive no 
> error message--my Palm just freezes and I have to do a soft reset.  I 
> can create new files, but when I add something to them or re-open 
> them, the Palm freezes.  I have tried beaming the files from Shadow 
> Plan itself and from BeamWare, neither of which worked.  Any 
> suggestions?
> 
> Lissa
1450

From: opitz@s...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:00am
Subject: Re: New messages are red!

 
Bob,

Have you set some of the items to be highlighted in red? If so, 
creating a new item that matches the highlight condition will make it 
red.

Bob


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., boudewyns@b... wrote:
> I feel silly I can't figure this out, but some of my new enties in 
> Shadow come out red, some are black. I can't seem to enforce 
> uniformly my preferred black. I'm using 1,5,6.
> 
> Suggestions appreciated. Please be kind.
> 
> Bob
1451

From: drumgirl313@y...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:22am
Subject: RE: RE: Question Re: Categories

 
>I would like to see the date that I insert a new child.  So far I've
>only seen where you can insert the target date.  I have been
>inserting a date stamp in the attached note instead.

Would setting the start date help you any?  You could go into details for
the item and change the start date to today unless you are actually using
that field for the start date of an item. Just a thought...



Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
********************************************
1452

From: Carolyn Dean  <caro488@y...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:38am
Subject: Re: how NOT to learn Shadow

 
Well, I just spent 6 hours learning how to use Shadow
Plan by doing Everything the hard way, and then a few
minutes later, finding the easy way (Oh, so you CAN
duplicate a list - and you can rename a list!!!)

I grafittied in 6 lists of activities, and then, as I
was reading over them, realized that the place
organization wasn't even helpful. So I saw the entire
plan from a different point of view, reorganized by
type of job, and RE grafittied all of it (now 4
lists).

Then, I realized that what I really want is a
time-frame- organized list and.... (now five different
lists)

But I have to say that I don't think the time was
wasted - not just learning to use Shadow, but in
seeing, really seeing what I was trying to organize.
(But God help me if I have to do this for everythign I
want to organize!!)

I really love this program! I m going to register it
now...but I am very tired...
Thanks
C


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
1454

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 0:07pm
Subject: Re: New messages are red!

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 boudewyns@b... wrote:

> I feel silly I can't figure this out, but some of my new enties in 
> Shadow come out red, some are black. I can't seem to enforce 
> uniformly my preferred black. I'm using 1,5,6.
> 
> Suggestions appreciated. Please be kind.

	You've likely activated a hilight filter; I think Hilight is under
the List pulldown menu. Just bring it up and turn it off.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1455

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 0:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: HELP! - Can't Open Files On New CLIE

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 irrsinn@y... wrote:

> I am having a similar problem with a Clie 710C.  My old Palm was a 
> Vx, running 1.5.6 (where all the files were created).  I receive no 
> error message--my Palm just freezes and I have to do a soft reset.  I 
> can create new files, but when I add something to them or re-open 
> them, the Palm freezes.  I have tried beaming the files from Shadow 
> Plan itself and from BeamWare, neither of which worked.  Any 
> suggestions?

	Shadow+Clie has a problem; you either need to run Shadow withotu
the col-bg option (list prefs), or in 160x160 mode, currently. So, open
the troublesom lists in 160x160, turn off col-bg, then return to highres
mode, or else just run in 160x160 all the time. (Somethign to do with the
bg blows up the Clie in highres mode :/)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1456

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 0:36pm
Subject: Re: New messages are red!

 
Ok, now I feel like an idiot.  I am certain this is what is wrong.  The hilight filter HAS to be what is in effect.

/me slaps self.  :)

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 boudewyns@b... wrote:
> 
> > I feel silly I can't figure this out, but some of my new enties in 
> > Shadow come out red, some are black. I can't seem to enforce 
> > uniformly my preferred black. I'm using 1,5,6.
> > 
> > Suggestions appreciated. Please be kind.
> 
> 	You've likely activated a hilight filter; I think Hilight is under
> the List pulldown menu. Just bring it up and turn it off.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1457

From: Bear  <ace_xe@y...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 0:37pm
Subject: Re: My Wishes

 
<snip-pit>
> So far all I know is that the first line of the attached note has 
TWO pound symbols - that is how you know it is a link/icon.  As far as 
the format of what remains on the line, I am still working on getting 
that info.
>  
<Snip-pit>

HEY, HEY, HEY.  While were at it can we re-hash my prevoius request of 
adding 50 lines of code or less to support AN address linking for 
todo's? (I believe a pony was also requested, but it was couple weeks 
ago and still no pony!)

Another option may be as follows:  Can someone, anyone, get a well 
written and VERY polite form-letter composed for Iambic and the 
makeres of DB4?  Perhaps if we hit them with a mass request from 
REGISTERED users of their respective products we could get them to 
'sit down' with Jeff and hammer out a genuine standard for information 
cross-linking.

Just a thought.

BEAR
Evil at work
1458

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: Jeff: Tap scrolling

 
I know you had mentioned in the past that you wanted to put in that tap scrolling code (you know, tap at the top to scroll up quickly, tap just above the middle to go up a bit slower).  I was just wondering if you had an idea of the timeline.  I guess the more I use shadow the more I end up wanting to mirror the comments about how the scrollbars are really nice in many ways (But I do understand why you went without them)

-Joe Chott
1459

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Jeff: Tap scrolling

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I know you had mentioned in the past that you wanted to put in that
> tap scrolling code (you know, tap at the top to scroll up quickly, tap
> just above the middle to go up a bit slower).  I was just wondering if
> you had an idea of the timeline.  I guess the more I use shadow the
> more I end up wanting to mirror the comments about how the scrollbars
> are really nice in many ways (But I do understand why you went without
> them)

	heh. ITs quite a complex and "scientific" *g* method by which I
put things in. (In other words, I don't really know ;)  The itch I have at
the moment of free time has a higher chance of being implemented than
other items. An itch is when people are bugging me about it, or when its
on my todo list and cool. Given free time, the item that can fit into that
time with the most itch is chosen. An itch increase for a given item by
various factors. Really, its how fun something is (more tedious and awful
things to implement are lower on the list), and thigs which are high
requests and/or neat are very high on my list. (ie: I try and implement
good or popular sensible requests first, so peopel feel that Shadow is
their software too). 

	Scrollbars are a bit of a pain (not too much, but a bit), and I
always figured they were too much screen. But you really can't tell until
you do it .. so I don't know per se.

	I am planning on (soon) adding a scrollbar. 

	Shoudl it be on by default, with custom option to disable, or
should it be off by default, with custom enable? (Consider new users)

		jeff


--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1460

From: Learned  <learned@t...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 1:24pm
Subject: Desktop

 
Jeff,

Will the desktop version support any form of archiving
or at a minimum the option to hold Shadows that DON'T
sync?
1461

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 1:41pm
Subject: Re: Desktop

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Learned wrote:

> Will the desktop version support any form of archiving
> or at a minimum the option to hold Shadows that DON'T
> sync?

	There will definitely be the option of having a list that doesn't
sync. As ot archiving .. its certainly on my radar but I've not explored
it much yet.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1462

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Jeff: Tap scrolling

 
Considering new users, I think it is a no brainer that it should be ON by default.  If there is an option to turn it off (bonus points if configurable PER LIST), then I would expect your existing user base would be perfectly happy.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> 
> > I know you had mentioned in the past that you wanted to put in that
> > tap scrolling code (you know, tap at the top to scroll up quickly, tap
> > just above the middle to go up a bit slower).  I was just wondering if
> > you had an idea of the timeline.  I guess the more I use shadow the
> > more I end up wanting to mirror the comments about how the scrollbars
> > are really nice in many ways (But I do understand why you went without
> > them)
> 
> 	heh. ITs quite a complex and "scientific" *g* method by which I
> put things in. (In other words, I don't really know ;)  The itch I have at
> the moment of free time has a higher chance of being implemented than
> other items. An itch is when people are bugging me about it, or when its
> on my todo list and cool. Given free time, the item that can fit into that
> time with the most itch is chosen. An itch increase for a given item by
> various factors. Really, its how fun something is (more tedious and awful
> things to implement are lower on the list), and thigs which are high
> requests and/or neat are very high on my list. (ie: I try and implement
> good or popular sensible requests first, so peopel feel that Shadow is
> their software too). 
> 
> 	Scrollbars are a bit of a pain (not too much, but a bit), and I
> always figured they were too much screen. But you really can't tell until
> you do it .. so I don't know per se.
> 
> 	I am planning on (soon) adding a scrollbar. 
> 
> 	Shoudl it be on by default, with custom option to disable, or
> should it be off by default, with custom enable? (Consider new users)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1463

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: Re: Todo categories

 
I think this is a good approach for most needs. I especially like it 
because it seems MOST of the currrent category discussion is being 
driving by the GTD group (I read that one, too) and there are many 
other Shadow users who are not using that method and whose needs for 
categories and tags is quite different. I think this approach has 
excellent flexibility in it.

So, for me, a perf that pops us categry selection is good, and the 
eventual implimentation of tags is "the final solution."  (Until the 
next round)

Jeff, you are unbelieveable flexible with all our suggestions...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	Perhaps it shoudl be like this:
> 
> 	1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
> 	2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
> 	3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
> 	4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup 
list
> of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send 
it to
> right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-
column when
> activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can 
create
> todo links to see if it makes sense..
>
1464

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jeff: Tap scrolling

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> Considering new users, I think it is a no brainer that it should be ON
> by default.  If there is an option to turn it off (bonus points if
> configurable PER LIST), then I would expect your existing user base
> would be perfectly happy.

	Custom list option, of course (ie: per list)

> 
> -Joe Chott
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> > 
> > > I know you had mentioned in the past that you wanted to put in that
> > > tap scrolling code (you know, tap at the top to scroll up quickly, tap
> > > just above the middle to go up a bit slower).  I was just wondering if
> > > you had an idea of the timeline.  I guess the more I use shadow the
> > > more I end up wanting to mirror the comments about how the scrollbars
> > > are really nice in many ways (But I do understand why you went without
> > > them)
> > 
> > 	heh. ITs quite a complex and "scientific" *g* method by which I
> > put things in. (In other words, I don't really know ;)  The itch I have at
> > the moment of free time has a higher chance of being implemented than
> > other items. An itch is when people are bugging me about it, or when its
> > on my todo list and cool. Given free time, the item that can fit into that
> > time with the most itch is chosen. An itch increase for a given item by
> > various factors. Really, its how fun something is (more tedious and awful
> > things to implement are lower on the list), and thigs which are high
> > requests and/or neat are very high on my list. (ie: I try and implement
> > good or popular sensible requests first, so peopel feel that Shadow is
> > their software too). 
> > 
> > 	Scrollbars are a bit of a pain (not too much, but a bit), and I
> > always figured they were too much screen. But you really can't tell until
> > you do it .. so I don't know per se.
> > 
> > 	I am planning on (soon) adding a scrollbar. 
> > 
> > 	Shoudl it be on by default, with custom option to disable, or
> > should it be off by default, with custom enable? (Consider new users)
> > 
> > 		jeff
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
> > circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> > sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
> > -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1465

From: Michelle Schneider  <meeka@y...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Todo categories

 
I also am in favor of this approach.
--- bstryd@a... wrote:
> I think this is a good approach for most needs. I especially like it 
> because it seems MOST of the currrent category discussion is being 
> driving by the GTD group (I read that one, too) and there are many 
> other Shadow users who are not using that method and whose needs for 
> categories and tags is quite different. I think this approach has 
> excellent flexibility in it.
> 
> So, for me, a perf that pops us categry selection is good, and the 
> eventual implimentation of tags is "the final solution."  (Until the 
> next round)
> 
> Jeff, you are unbelieveable flexible with all our suggestions...
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> > 	Perhaps it shoudl be like this:
> > 
> > 	1) Shadow has a default todo cat for list (already present)
> > 	2) Shadow has no care of todo cat in details (already current)
> > 	3) Pref: "Ask category at link establishment time"
> > 	4) When you add a link to todo, if the pref set, then a popup 
> list
> > of current todo cats woudl be shown to let you select oen to send 
> it to
> > right away. (This woudl occur in link manager and in todo-link-
> column when
> > activated or in flat-view). I'd have to check where else user can 
> create
> > todo links to see if it makes sense..
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


=====
Michelle Schneider
meeka@y...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
1466

From: rdavis@d...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: Filename limit of 20 characters

 
Jeff,

Is the filename limit of 20 characters a Palm OS limitation or within 
your control?

Following David Allen's GTD methodology I'd like an aditional 10 
characters in the filename, for a total of 30, to better name my 
project files

Regards,
Richard.
1467

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Filename limit of 20 characters

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 rdavis@d... wrote:

> Is the filename limit of 20 characters a Palm OS limitation or within 
> your control?

	PalmOS.

> Following David Allen's GTD methodology I'd like an aditional 10 
> characters in the filename, for a total of 30, to better name my 
> project files

	The best I can offer is mapping -- let you use arbitrary long
filenames, and then have shadow look up your name and map it to some
random palm name. The problem with that is that when you beam files, or
look at backups on the desktop, etc, it'll be the random names oyu
see.. so would be annoying. 

	As such, I'm just sticking with the short name limit for
now.. though maybe we can get creative later...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1468

From: egroups@R...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 5:48pm
Subject: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
Jeff,

I've been using Shadow for a month or so. It's a great addition to my 
business management tools. A couple of suggestions I have that would 
help me (and I hope others) use it more effectively:

- I'd like more keyboard support (I use the GoType keyboard). For 
instance when using a filtered list, pressing the down arrow key 
moves me thru all the items in the list, not just the filtered ones. 
I found this by pressing the down arrow--nothing was highlighted--
then I pressed Details and had info on a task that was outside of the 
filter. Other issues include lack of keyboard selection on the file 
list screen; After opening a file, have to select with pen before 
using keyboard; No keyboard support in the Filter dialog; etc.

- I'd like more options on changing dates. I use DateBk4 and 
miss "Day after tomotrrow", "This Friday", "Next Monday", and "Start 
of next month".

- I'd like to customize the filter choices and just show my list. 
That way I don't have to wade thru filters I'll never use.

- I can't wait for the desktop and two-way updating. I feel like I'm 
just coasting in my use of this program. Once I can update both ways 
and print out lists that have dates I will *really* be able to use it.

Thanks for your responsiveness. It's great to have this kind of 
access to the program developer.

Michael Rudnick
1469

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 egroups@R... wrote:

> - I'd like more keyboard support (I use the GoType keyboard). For 
> instance when using a filtered list, pressing the down arrow key 
> moves me thru all the items in the list, not just the filtered ones. 
> I found this by pressing the down arrow--nothing was highlighted--
> then I pressed Details and had info on a task that was outside of the 
> filter. Other issues include lack of keyboard selection on the file 
> list screen; After opening a file, have to select with pen before 
> using keyboard; No keyboard support in the Filter dialog; etc.

	Make a long detailed lis tof keyboard issues if you can .. I don't
have a keyboard, so its hard for me to guess whats needed or wrong :P (I
used to have a keyboard, but got sick of keyboard upgrades.. Newton -> old
Palm -> Palm 3c -> Visor Prism .. maybe to Clie next? Every time requires
another $150 for all new keyboard.. the lack of standards costs too much,
so I'm not buying any more :P

> - I'd like more options on changing dates. I use DateBk4 and 
> miss "Day after tomotrrow", "This Friday", "Next Monday", and "Start 
> of next month".

	Yeah; good idea.

> - I'd like to customize the filter choices and just show my list. 
> That way I don't have to wade thru filters I'll never use.

	I'll be adding a custom filter option to let you define and save
your own filter (or maybe multiple saved filters).

> - I can't wait for the desktop and two-way updating. I feel like I'm 
> just coasting in my use of this program. Once I can update both ways 
> and print out lists that have dates I will *really* be able to use it.

	heh. It already syncs against the todo and datebook databases, so
syncing to desktop occurs on linked items, in a way. But the desktop app
will make everyone giggle :)

> Thanks for your responsiveness. It's great to have this kind of 
> access to the program developer.

	It takers a lot of time (you cannot imagine), but I think its
rewarding for everyone .. I know what you need, and you get what you want
:)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1470

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
On 2001-07-06 at 17:48, egroups@R... wrote:

> "Next Monday", and "Start of next month".

Isn't this the same ?? (or do a week start on sunday in the US)?
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1471

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 6:28pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
On 2001-07-06 at 13:54, Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

>   I'll be adding a custom filter option to let you define and save
> your own filter (or maybe multiple saved filters).

Multiple please !! (personally I would like to have multiple custom item
formatting in one list also 8-)

            jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1472

From: Becca  <beccaE@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
At 8:27 PM +0200 7/6/01, Jan Erik Moström wrote:
>On 2001-07-06 at 17:48, egroups@R... wrote:
>
>>  "Next Monday", and "Start of next month".
>
>Isn't this the same ?? (or do a week start on sunday in the US)?

In the USA, like so many things, it can vary. Some places/people 
start their week on Sunday and others on Monday. Most calendars start 
on Sunday in my experience but I have worked at places that ended pay 
periods on Sunday so the work week or pay period began on a Monday.

-- 
Becca :)

The business of life is to go forward.
--Samuel Johnson
1473

From: Jan Erik Moström  <lists@m...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
On 2001-07-06 at 13:39, Becca <beccaE@s...> wrote:

> In the USA, like so many things, it can vary. Some places/people 
> start their week on Sunday and others on Monday. Most calendars start 
> on Sunday in my experience but I have worked at places that ended pay 
> periods on Sunday so the work week or pay period began on a Monday.

Well, I shouldn't be suprised 8-)

During my first visit to the US I decided that I should call home from the
airport and tell them that I would be home in 24-hours or so. Important to the
story is that at time we only had one telephone company ... today, there are so
many that I can't count them 8-)

I went to a pay-phone and dialed the operator and asked if I could make a
collect call to Sweden and the answer was "No, it's not possible" ... Hmmm, I
opened my wallet and counted ... perhaps I've got enough coins to call home and
just say "I'm home soon" before I would be disconnected. So I put in all the
change I had left and dialed the number ... but the operator cut in and said
that I needed to put in more money. "Sorry, but I haven't got any more coins.
Isn't it possible to make a collect call??"  "Of course, sir. Just a moment"

During the flight home I was amazed how it at first was impossible to make a
collect call and then suddenly, using the same phone, 2 minutes later it was
possible 8-)

When I came home I had to ask a US friend how the system worked 8-) ... and we
will probably have a similar system soon here 8-)

                    jem
--
Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
Free Elektron                      http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1474

From: ext555@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
Jeff, Another vote for more options on changing dates on items : )
using a ppk and laptop hack you can change a date without tapping the 
screen but more options to choose from would be very nice, otherwise 
you pick "choose date" and that usually involves tapping on the screen

thanks for listening as much as you do!
Paul 

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 egroups@R... wrote:
> 
> > - I'd like more keyboard support (I use the GoType keyboard). For 
> > instance when using a filtered list, pressing the down arrow key 
> > moves me thru all the items in the list, not just the filtered 
ones. 
> > I found this by pressing the down arrow--nothing was highlighted--
> > then I pressed Details and had info on a task that was outside of 
the 
> > filter. Other issues include lack of keyboard selection on the 
file 
> > list screen; After opening a file, have to select with pen before 
> > using keyboard; No keyboard support in the Filter dialog; etc.
> 
> 	Make a long detailed lis tof keyboard issues if you can .. I 
don't
> have a keyboard, so its hard for me to guess whats needed or 
wrong :P (I
> used to have a keyboard, but got sick of keyboard upgrades.. 
Newton -> old
> Palm -> Palm 3c -> Visor Prism .. maybe to Clie next? Every time 
requires
> another $150 for all new keyboard.. the lack of standards costs too 
much,
> so I'm not buying any more :P
> 
> > - I'd like more options on changing dates. I use DateBk4 and 
> > miss "Day after tomotrrow", "This Friday", "Next Monday", 
and "Start 
> > of next month".
> 
> 	Yeah; good idea.
> 
> > - I'd like to customize the filter choices and just show my list. 
> > That way I don't have to wade thru filters I'll never use.
> 
> 	I'll be adding a custom filter option to let you define and 
save
> your own filter (or maybe multiple saved filters).
> 
> > - I can't wait for the desktop and two-way updating. I feel like 
I'm 
> > just coasting in my use of this program. Once I can update both 
ways 
> > and print out lists that have dates I will *really* be able to 
use it.
> 
> 	heh. It already syncs against the todo and datebook 
databases, so
> syncing to desktop occurs on linked items, in a way. But the 
desktop app
> will make everyone giggle :)
> 
> > Thanks for your responsiveness. It's great to have this kind of 
> > access to the program developer.
> 
> 	It takers a lot of time (you cannot imagine), but I think its
> rewarding for everyone .. I know what you need, and you get what 
you want
> :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1475

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 8:34pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Jan Erik [iso-8859-1] Moström wrote:

> On 2001-07-06 at 17:48, egroups@R... wrote:
> 
> > "Next Monday", and "Start of next month".
> 
> Isn't this the same ?? (or do a week start on sunday in the US)?

	I think he was implying "Next Monday" "Next Tuesday" "Next
Wednesday", etc.. a whole list of useful pseudo-dates. And yeah, in North
America, the work week starts Monday, but the week itself formally begins
on Sunday.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1476

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 8:37pm
Subject: Semi Off Topic

 
Jeff Mitchell is awesome.  Just in case any of you were currently unaware.  :)

-Joe Chott
1477

From: Learned  <learned@t...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Semi Off Topic

 
Can you believe that someone had the nerve to suggest that Jeff
was a mere mortal?

Quoting verxion@p... (verxion@p...):
> Jeff Mitchell is awesome.  Just in case any of you were currently unaware.  :)
> 
> -Joe Chott
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
1478

From: Learned  <learned@t...>
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: Return to Shadow

 
I to am having the problem of once the 
'return to shadow' option was selected
I have no way of getting back to my
application launcher, even if I disable
that feature in Shadow. What's the current
status on this?
1479

From: irrsinn@y...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 1:45am
Subject: Re: HELP! - Can't Open Files On New CLIE

 
I did the first five steps that you mentioned, then re-installed each 
app manually, moving no data over as of yet.  As I re-installed each 
app, I beamed the database over from the old handheld (still in my 
possession).  I did have to re-register each piece of software, like 
you said, but I never messed with the old HotSync files except to 
move them to a backup location.  

In every other application, all the data moved over perfectly with no 
loss.  In fact, my Shadow files (beamed from Shadow itself at first), 
seemed to beam over well.  They showed up in the list of available 
files.  The only problem came in opening them.  

I will do whatever it takes to get this program working.  I have also 
tried doing a hard reset, *only* installing Shadow, and attempting to 
run the files, with no better luck.  Any suggestions?

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> What program(s) or hardware did you use to back up your Vx and then 
restore to your Clie?  I know for instance that some of the 
configuration information should NOT be restored.
> 
> I have upgraded MANY MANY palms in my day, and what I have found 
works best is the following:
> 
> 1. Do a complete and total backup of my previous unit with Backup 
Buddy.
> 
> 2. If at ALL possible, purchase my new unit while I still have 
possession of my older one.
> 
> 3. Move my backup directory OUT of the palm directory on my 
computer.  Uninstall Backup Buddy, uninstall palm desktop.
> 
> 4. Install new palm desktop from new palm company.  Install latest 
backup buddy software.
> 
> 5. Do a hotsynch of my brand new palm with none of my previous data 
or programs in it yet.
> 
> 6. Go to the old hotsynch directory that I moved out of the palm 
directory, and tell all software to re-install to my new palm EXCEPT 
for saved and unsaved preferences.  (This means all my program .PRC 
files and all of my data .PDB files)  Special care should be taken to 
NOT install .PRC's that are Palm model specific.
> 
> 7. Now try the software on the new Palm.  Go through each program 
one at a time, ensure the data is still there, and make sure they are 
properly registered (Their registration is PROBABLY gone due to your 
not restoring the preferences and saved preferences).
> 
> 8. This SHOULD result in a nicely working Palm with you old 
programs and data.
> 
> These steps may not help you, I don't know.  The steps may not be 
possible for you at this point.  I am just offering them up as a 
possible way to "get there from here".
> 
> If you didn't follow a similar process to what I outlined above, 
can you describe how you DID get your data from the old palm to the 
new one?  Perhaps some portion of that description will help 
determine what happened.
> 
> -Joe Chott
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., irrsinn@y... wrote:
> > I am having a similar problem with a Clie 710C.  My old Palm was 
a 
> > Vx, running 1.5.6 (where all the files were created).  I receive 
no 
> > error message--my Palm just freezes and I have to do a soft 
reset.  I 
> > can create new files, but when I add something to them or re-open 
> > them, the Palm freezes.  I have tried beaming the files from 
Shadow 
> > Plan itself and from BeamWare, neither of which worked.  Any 
> > suggestions?
> > 
> > Lissa
1480

From: irrsinn@y...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 1:48am
Subject: Re: HELP! - Can't Open Files On New CLIE

 
Thank you, thank you, thank you.  That solved the problem perfectly.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 irrsinn@y... wrote:
> 
> > I am having a similar problem with a Clie 710C.  My old Palm was 
a 
> > Vx, running 1.5.6 (where all the files were created).  I receive 
no 
> > error message--my Palm just freezes and I have to do a soft 
reset.  I 
> > can create new files, but when I add something to them or re-open 
> > them, the Palm freezes.  I have tried beaming the files from 
Shadow 
> > Plan itself and from BeamWare, neither of which worked.  Any 
> > suggestions?
> 
> 	Shadow+Clie has a problem; you either need to run Shadow 
withotu
> the col-bg option (list prefs), or in 160x160 mode, currently. So, 
open
> the troublesom lists in 160x160, turn off col-bg, then return to 
highres
> mode, or else just run in 160x160 all the time. (Somethign to do 
with the
> bg blows up the Clie in highres mode :/)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1481

From: drumgirl313@y...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 3:01am
Subject: Return to Shadow/Commander

 
Just a heads up on this launcher...the 'return to shadow' after a goto
feature will not work when commander is activated.  Tapping the applications
silk-screen button just takes you back to the commander launcher - not
shadow.  I deactivated commander and tested it again with the just the
built-in launcher running and it works as advertised.  I don't know if this
can be fixed, but I thought you'd like to know.

Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
********************************************
1482

From: drumgirl313@y...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 3:09am
Subject: New From...Datebook

 
Since you said user feedback can sometimes give you the 'itch' to work on
something...let me add the 'new from datebook' bug to your allergy list ;)
I would really like for this to work.  It is such a pain to be unable to
import datebook items.  I usually have to recreate the event in shadow, then
link to the datebook, then go to the link in datebk4 and adjust the repeat,
icon, category, etc.  Currently, when I try to do a 'new from' and choose
datebook I get no listings - even if I select other weeks.  If I select
todos, I get a list, but some items are still missing from the list.  I also
get weird characters between the [x] and the todo description.  What's the
status on cleaning up this function?  *Scratch* *Scratch*

PS - I'm willing to test anything if you have any ideas on what causes this
problem if I am the only one complaining - let me know - I love to help out
:)


Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
********************************************
1483

From: ext555@p...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 3:32am
Subject: Re: New From...Datebook

 
This is strange--I use Dbk4 and "new from" always shows me a list of 
items to import.   I have different saved views but none of my 
categories are hidden in any of the views.   Could this possibly be 
throwing Shadow off?  If dbk 4 hides a category during a certain time 
frame?    just a thought

Paul 

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., <drumgirl313@y...> wrote:
> Since you said user feedback can sometimes give you the 'itch' to 
work on
> something...let me add the 'new from datebook' bug to your allergy 
list ;)
> I would really like for this to work.  It is such a pain to be 
unable to
> import datebook items.  I usually have to recreate the event in 
shadow, then
> link to the datebook, then go to the link in datebk4 and adjust the 
repeat,
> icon, category, etc.  Currently, when I try to do a 'new from' and 
choose
> datebook I get no listings - even if I select other weeks.  If I 
select
> todos, I get a list, but some items are still missing from the 
list.  I also
> get weird characters between the [x] and the todo description.  
What's the
> status on cleaning up this function?  *Scratch* *Scratch*
> 
> PS - I'm willing to test anything if you have any ideas on what 
causes this
> problem if I am the only one complaining - let me know - I love to 
help out
> :)
> 
> 
> Gretchen
> 
> http://pugnut.tripod.com
> ********************************************
> Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
> ********************************************
1484

From: drumgirl313@y...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 3:45am
Subject: RE: Re: New From...Datebook

 
Well, I just disabled all hacks...still no datebook entries in 'new from'
Deleted Datebk4 and it's db..still no datebook entries in 'new from'

Any other suggestions?

I'm using a Palm IIIx OS 3.1

Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
********************************************



>This is strange--I use Dbk4 and "new from" always shows me a list of
>items to import.   I have different saved views but none of my
>categories are hidden in any of the views.   Could this possibly be
>throwing Shadow off?  If dbk 4 hides a category during a certain time
>frame?    just a thought
1485

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 6:05am
Subject: Re: Semi Off Topic

 
Oh man, you're such a snot. A tattletale! And both of you are kissups.

I would never do such a thing, myself.

oooieoo, mortal pointer-outter



-------------------
Learned wrote:
>Can you believe that someone had the nerve to suggest that Jeff
>was a mere mortal?
>
>Quoting verxion@p... (verxion@p...):
> > Jeff Mitchell is awesome.  Just in case any of you were currently 
> unaware.  :)
> >
> > -Joe Chott
1486

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 6:07am
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
Well Jan, I've lived in the U.S. my whole life and the phone system[s] here 
passed me by a long time ago. I have no idea what's going on and fear the 
learning curve to catch up will do me in.

oooieoo

-----------------------

Jan wrote:
>During my first visit to the US I decided that I should call home from the
>airport and tell them that I would be home in 24-hours or so. Important to the
>story is that at time we only had one telephone company ... today, there 
>are so
>many that I can't count them 8-)
>
>I went to a pay-phone and dialed the operator and asked if I could make a
>collect call to Sweden and the answer was "No, it's not possible" ... Hmmm, I
>opened my wallet and counted ... perhaps I've got enough coins to call 
>home and
>just say "I'm home soon" before I would be disconnected. So I put in all the
>change I had left and dialed the number ... but the operator cut in and said
>that I needed to put in more money. "Sorry, but I haven't got any more coins.
>Isn't it possible to make a collect call??"  "Of course, sir. Just a moment"
>
>During the flight home I was amazed how it at first was impossible to make a
>collect call and then suddenly, using the same phone, 2 minutes later it was
>possible 8-)
>
>When I came home I had to ask a US friend how the system worked 8-) ... and we
>will probably have a similar system soon here 8-)
1487

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 6:12am
Subject: Re: Jeff: Tap scrolling

 
Jeff wrote:
 >>I am planning on (soon) adding a scrollbar.<<

WooHoo! And it will work with LeftHack or have it's own version? Yeah?? Heh...


 >>Shoudl it be on by default, with custom option to disable, or should it 
be off by default, with custom enable? (Consider new users)<<

Well, since we have to do the custom-thing for each of our lists anyway, 
what's another option to tick when setting things up? Either way is okay 
for me.

oooieoo
1488

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 8:48am
Subject: Re: Jeff: Tap scrolling

 
>Jeff wrote:
>  >>I am planning on (soon) adding a scrollbar.<<

I wrote:
>WooHoo! And it will work with LeftHack or have it's own version? Yeah?? Heh...


So, if we get a srollbar, while you're at it can we have a Zoom Toggle 
button and a Hide/Show Toggle button on the screens too??

oooieoo  <---- tired and pushing it <g>
1491

From: pw@w...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 0:50pm
Subject: Re: New From...Datebook

 
Gretchen,

I had never used this New from... function until I wanted to test it 
based on your case. 

I have an m505 and noticed that I have to wait quite some time, 
TWICE. First wait is for the table to fill up with datebook items and 
the second is to wait for the item you highlight to show the text 
again. Only then will tapping OK do the trick (for me).

Have you waited enough.

Peter

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., <drumgirl313@y...> wrote:
> Well, I just disabled all hacks...still no datebook entries in 'new 
from'
> Deleted Datebk4 and it's db..still no datebook entries in 'new from'
> 
> Any other suggestions?
> 
> I'm using a Palm IIIx OS 3.1
> 
> Gretchen
1492

From: ext555@p...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 1:38pm
Subject: Re: New From...Datebook

 
No, I wish I did. I can't imagine why it's not working, unless it's 
some strange thing with OS 3.1? 

The only glitch I seem to have with "new from datebk" is the time it 
takes shadow to load the list.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., <drumgirl313@y...> wrote:
> Well, I just disabled all hacks...still no datebook entries in 'new 
from'
> Deleted Datebk4 and it's db..still no datebook entries in 'new from'
> 
> Any other suggestions?
> 
> I'm using a Palm IIIx OS 3.1
> 
> Gretchen
> 
> http://pugnut.tripod.com
> ********************************************
> Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
> ********************************************
> 
> 
> 
> >This is strange--I use Dbk4 and "new from" always shows me a list 
of
> >items to import.   I have different saved views but none of my
> >categories are hidden in any of the views.   Could this possibly be
> >throwing Shadow off?  If dbk 4 hides a category during a certain 
time
> >frame?    just a thought
1493

From: opitz@s...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 4:51pm
Subject: Checkbox overwrites Priority

 
I'm finding the checkboxes of tasklist items written on top of the 
priority in Shadow 1.5.11. This happens under the following 
conditions:

In Display Preferences, the Indent exp/collapse arrow and the Indent 
priority bubble items are unchecked;
The list type (in List Preferences) is a Note or a Checklist;
I have a parent item whose children have both priority and checkbox 
displayed (Tasklist or Custom, either one gives the problem); and
I select the parent item and choose Zoom inside sel. from the View 
button.

If I expand the parent item by tapping the arrow, I do not see the 
problem.

If I check either Indent exp/collapse arrow or Indent priority bubble 
(or both), I do not see the problem when I zoom inside a selection.

If the list type is Tasklist, I do not see the problem. 

Can anyone else reproduce this?

Bob Opitz
1494

From: freking@p...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Tags and Cats

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote: 
> 	Nothing is written in stone yet, but the basic implementation 
(not
> mentioning the potential evolution or extensions) is along these 
lines:
> 
> 	Categories -- there is alreayd a list level cat assignment. 
The
> goal is add item level categories. So an item will either have "no
> category assignment", or "be assigned a category in todo". If you 
link an
> item, it will take on the assigned category. If you change the 
category in
> another app, Shadow will pick up this change. When an item is linked 
and
> also has no assigned category, Shadow will walk "up" the hierarchy, 
and
> the item will take on the category of the first parent that has one, 
or if
> none, then the list level itself.

Okay, I think I am finally understanding what you are saying.  When 
you say you are adding item level categories you mean you are adding a 
way to assign a category to an item so that if and when you link it to 
todo, you don't have to leave shadow to assign a todo category.  You 
are not adding a way to sort or hilite or filter by category.  So that 
if I wanted to filter by say, unchecked and hilite by a specific 
category, this will not be possible.


> 	Tags -- you will have a Tag Editor allowing you to edit up to 
50
> or 100 tags for a list. What you put in the tags is your own 
business
> .. they'll just be a number with associated text to Shadow. (ie: 
You'll
> have slots 1-x, with x being 50 or 100 or whatever.) You can assign 
a tag
> or two to an item in the details window. There could be a column for 
tag
> display, perhaps, to make changing and viewing easy. You'll be able 
to
> filter on tag (select all items that contain this tag _____), or 
sort (by
> first tag, then second tag).
> 

Tags is where I will gain additional filtering possibilities.  So to 
use the same example I used above, if I wanted to filter by unchecked 
and hilite by a specific category, I would have to make sure that the 
item has a tag with that same name as the assigned todo category.  
Furthermore, if at any time I changed the assigned todo category of 
the item inside shadow or another app, I would also have to go into 
Shadow and change the tag to the new corresponding category name if I 
wanted to maintain an accurate ability to filter 'by category'.

> 	Tags may in the future map to categories or somesuch, but I'll
> leave that until we explore tags and categories in more detail..
> 
> 		jeff

Furthermore, this two step maintenance process (for category changes) 
will continue to be the only way to maintain accurate 'by category' 
type of filters unless at some point in the future a way to map 
categories or somesuch is devised.

So for those of us (am I the only one?) who would like to filter by 
category INSIDE OF SHADOW this will be our solution?

Frieda
1495

From: andy@t...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
Here's my list of keyboard features that I'd like to see:

* Command sequences (shortcuts) for all menu items (menu items 
without command sequences are inaccessible without tapping on the 
screen as far as I can tell)
* Ctrl key sequences might work for some things, too instead of a 
formal shortcut (e.g. Ctrl-F triggers Find, without the need to 
define <slash>F as a menu shortcut).  These could also be used for 
bold & color selectors, etc. that don't have menu items.
* Delete... key triggers delete anywhere the trash can button shows 
up now.

Main file list:
* Up/down arrow support to move between files.
* Enter button opens selected file (although this is possible now by 
pushing Cmd-Ctrl-O which triggers the open button)

Within a file:
* Immediate selection of a list item (although using Cmd-T currently 
to trigger the Top Item menu choice isn't too bad)
* Enter button brings up Details for selected item (although this is 
also already possible with Fn-Right Arrow (I'm just lazy))
* Some way to activate checkboxes if present in a list
* Keep the keyboard compatibility functionality already there (though 
keys can change to make them a little more intuitive) (once an item 
is selected, the up/down arrows scroll through the items & left/right 
arrows expand/collapse children, key labeled "Space" (Not space bar) 
makes the selected item the child of the previous item, while 
BackSpace moves it back out to the same level as its parent)

I'm by no means a power user yet -- I'm sure other people can 
identify additional areas, but that's what I've come up with in my 
brief keyboard ownership period...

Andy
1496

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Return to Shadow

 
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Learned wrote:

> I to am having the problem of once the 
> 'return to shadow' option was selected
> I have no way of getting back to my
> application launcher, even if I disable
> that feature in Shadow. What's the current
> status on this?

	Current status is I've not had a chance to look much into
it; there will likely be a release tomorrow or very soon which will, when
you deactivate the option, pop up a box asking if you'd wish to reset to
the default launcher. Thus, if you're one of those with a problem, you'll
be able to at least easily reset to the built in launcher.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
1497

From: talanzimmerman@h...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: REQ: Custom filters and a variety of bullet styles

 
I know these have been mentioned  before but I thought I'd throw in 
my two cents.  It would be great to be able to set more than one 
filter criterion, especially for some of my longer lists.  Also being 
able to pick different bullet styles would make life a little 
easier.  Thanks and keep up the awesome work.

Todd
1498

From: drumgirl313@y...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 8:38pm
Subject: RE: Re: New From...Datebook

 
>I had never used this New from... function until I wanted to test it
>based on your case.
>
>I have an m505 and noticed that I have to wait quite some time,
>TWICE. First wait is for the table to fill up with datebook items and
>the second is to wait for the item you highlight to show the text
>again. Only then will tapping OK do the trick (for me).
>
>Have you waited enough.

I waited until my palm auto-shut off (3 minutes) and then turned it back on.
Still no entries.  :(

Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
********************************************
1499

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 9:01pm
Subject: Slow moving ShadowLists

 
Just curious here. I'm getting close to getting my lists where I want them. 
I have a lot of lists and a couple of them are pretty long outlines. I have 
been making free use of notes, because I love the inline note feature. I 
haven't done much in the way of linking yet (though I plan to).

I can barely get around in the program anymore. Tapping the DONE button to 
go back into the outline list view takes forever. Forget about using that 
nifty new-fangled option of using the hardware button to cycle through my 
ShadowPlan categories. For that, I can do a "one-thousand-one, 
one-thousand-two...." count up to five seconds before the screen redraws.

My question to the others: As your lists have grown, have you noticed any 
dramatic slowdown in the re-draw effort of the program? If so, do you use 
notes quite a bit or do you just use the Parent/Child outline format?

The program was initially kind of slow for me, but installing QuickBits 
seemingly cleared the problem up. I'm not posting this to whine about the 
program. I just want to find out what it is I'm doing to cause the 
program's sudden slowness--and no, I haven't started using any other 
programs or options than I had going on before this slowdown other than 
finally getting all my lists imported and sorted out.

Thanks!

oooieoo
1501

From: pw@w...
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 1:27pm
Subject: Re: New From...Datebook

 
--- In shadow-discuss@y..., <drumgirl313@y...> wrote:
> 
> I waited until my palm auto-shut off (3 minutes) and then turned it 
back on.
> Still no entries.  :(
> 
> Gretchen

Sorry, out of ideas. 

Peter
1502

From: egroups@R...
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
Jeff,

I like Andy's list. This would give us the 80% we need.

Michael Rudnick

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., andy@t... wrote:
> Here's my list of keyboard features that I'd like to see:
> 
> * Command sequences (shortcuts) for all menu items (menu items 
> without command sequences are inaccessible without tapping on the 
> screen as far as I can tell)
> * Ctrl key sequences might work for some things, too instead of a 
> formal shortcut (e.g. Ctrl-F triggers Find, without the need to 
> define <slash>F as a menu shortcut).  These could also be used for 
> bold & color selectors, etc. that don't have menu items.
> * Delete... key triggers delete anywhere the trash can button shows 
> up now.
> 
> Main file list:
> * Up/down arrow support to move between files.
> * Enter button opens selected file (although this is possible now 
by 
> pushing Cmd-Ctrl-O which triggers the open button)
> 
> Within a file:
> * Immediate selection of a list item (although using Cmd-T 
currently 
> to trigger the Top Item menu choice isn't too bad)
> * Enter button brings up Details for selected item (although this 
is 
> also already possible with Fn-Right Arrow (I'm just lazy))
> * Some way to activate checkboxes if present in a list
> * Keep the keyboard compatibility functionality already there 
(though 
> keys can change to make them a little more intuitive) (once an item 
> is selected, the up/down arrows scroll through the items & 
left/right 
> arrows expand/collapse children, key labeled "Space" (Not space 
bar) 
> makes the selected item the child of the previous item, while 
> BackSpace moves it back out to the same level as its parent)
> 
> I'm by no means a power user yet -- I'm sure other people can 
> identify additional areas, but that's what I've come up with in my 
> brief keyboard ownership period...
> 
> Andy
1503

From: egroups@R...
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 4:16pm
Subject: Re: Keybard, Date Management, etc.

 
In DateBk4 you can reschedule ToDos by clicking on a spot on the line 
and choosing from the resulting list. This is something like clicking 
on the date of an item in Shadow. DateBk4 includes these choices:
Day now displayed    (not appropriate for Shadow)
Today                (same as Shadow)
Tomorrow             (same as Shadow)
Day after tomorrow   (if today is Tuesday, this would be Thursday)
This Friday          (if today is July 10, this would be July 13)
Next Monday          (if today is July 10, this would be July 16)
One week later       (same as Shadow)
Start of next month  (if today is July 10, this would be August 1)
No date              (same as Shadow)
Choose date...       (same as Shadow)

I would like these choices in Shadow. I hope this eliminates any 
confusion from my earlier post.

Michael Rudnick

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jan Erik Moström <lists@m...> wrote:
> On 2001-07-06 at 17:48, egroups@R... wrote:
> 
> > "Next Monday", and "Start of next month".
> 
> Isn't this the same ?? (or do a week start on sunday in the US)?
> --
> Jan Erik Moström                             mailto:jem@m...
> Free Elektron                      
http://www.mostrom.pp.se/folk/jem/
1504

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 4:52pm
Subject: More 'New From' problems

 
I have, several times, reported problems with the 'New From' Datebook 
menu item (and indeed Jeff has agreed to add the issue to his todo 
list).
However I have just tried to use the facility in anger with the ToDo 
list and find - or rather don't find - the list complete.  The 
missing ToDo items don't appear to conform to any pattern and make up 
about 25% of the 50 or so dated and undated items in the list.

Running Palm Vx os 3.5.2 and the latest Shadow.

Chris
1505

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 7:12pm
Subject: Re: New From...Datebook

 
This is a strange problem; it could help if someone could send me
their datebook .pdb files (not backed up by hotsync manager.. you'd need
backup buddy I think) and then tell me what I shoudl see in the New from,
and tell me what I dont' see .. so far, on my unit, it always shows me the
correct items :/

		jeff

On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 drumgirl313@y... wrote:

> Since you said user feedback can sometimes give you the 'itch' to work on
> something...let me add the 'new from datebook' bug to your allergy list ;)
> I would really like for this to work.  It is such a pain to be unable to
> import datebook items.  I usually have to recreate the event in shadow, then
> link to the datebook, then go to the link in datebk4 and adjust the repeat,
> icon, category, etc.  Currently, when I try to do a 'new from' and choose
> datebook I get no listings - even if I select other weeks.  If I select
> todos, I get a list, but some items are still missing from the list.  I also
> get weird characters between the [x] and the todo description.  What's the
> status on cleaning up this function?  *Scratch* *Scratch*
> 
> PS - I'm willing to test anything if you have any ideas on what causes this
> problem if I am the only one complaining - let me know - I love to help out
> :)
> 
> 
> Gretchen
> 
> http://pugnut.tripod.com
> ********************************************
> Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.
> ********************************************
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
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