From: glacefield@v...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	If its *really* a good idea, then I'll do it; I've found
> that very few people use the tap-and-hold detail mini view, and I'm
> not sure if thats because its hard to find, or if its because its
> not useful.

I'll admit, I myself use this feature only occasionally.  But that's 
because I usually don't have a great need to view the details, since 
I usually customize my view to see most of the details on the main 
screen.  Conversely, nearly *everyone* (except for the Graffiti 
users :-) uses "New" to create new items.  I think tap-and-hold here 
would be used much more often.

> It might be easier to do it for buttons, since you have to do it
> and keep the pen in the button (whereas on my tree view widget,
> you can tap and hold and I have to worry about sliding aroudn to
> drag and drop, and other issues so is more complex).

Makes a lot of sense.

> 	ie: You hit new, tap and hold for 1s (or 2s; can't do 1.5s
> easily) and then a popmenu shows up and you lift the pen, and tap
> a view type. Or just hit new and tap top right and pick the view
> type. The latter current method is faster (no waiting), though is
> an extra tap...

I like 1 sec rather than 2. The longer count makes sense for the tree 
view because of the varying operations that can take place, like you 
mention.  But when "New" is tapped, the user's intentions are pretty 
clear, and holding for longer than 1 second here would seem an 
eternity. I don't think you would run into problems with users 
accidentally holding for 1 second when they want the default type; at 
least *my* taps aren't *that* persistent. :-)

I also prefer hold vs. traversing the pen the diagonal distance of 
the screen to bullseye the "V" target; localizing the type selection 
to the creation tap seems more intuitive to me.  But other users may 
think differently.

Just knowing that you're considering it is encouraging. :-)

Greg

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

On Wed, 30 May 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> However, my biggest wish, by far, in the user interface area for 
> Shadow is in-line editing like Bonsai.  I know that would require 
> major rework to the current interface so I'm not sure it makes sense 
> building out the existing ui with new things you might need to throw 
> away later - if this is something you're still considering for the 
> future.

	This is one of those 50/50 things -- half peopel like it, half
hate it. Reason -- many people read more data than they enter. Define a
project, and you'll be living with it for months, but generally not
chanfging the text. Others are writing structured notes like essays, and
want to edit onscreen right away. Two different groups, with valid uses,
totally opposite ;)

	So I may add a pref to do it one way or the other. Its a lot of
work, and a lot of rework. ie: Consider -- drag and drop. Right now, you
drag to move an item, and drop it off. If in inline-edit interfacem, then
does dragging hilight text instead of moving an item?

	there is a huge amount of changes.

	This will wait awhile, until a lot of other things are done, that
everyone wants..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Wed, 30 May 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> Along those lines, I would also like to see the check box on the 
> details screen - or a preference option that automatically checks off 
> the check box if I update the progress bar to 100%. Seems like I 
> should be able to update everything about an item from the details 
> screen.

	Theres just so little space left .. where to put a checkbox there?

	Re: progresss bar .. I've avoided it so far. Consider, if your'e
progress is 70% now, and you check the item, the item is displayed as
100%, and counted as 100%. What if you uncheck it? It goes back to the
true %age you last set. This is handy for when you accidentally check
something off.

	What if you set progress to 100 .. the item checks. Then you
uncheck it.. what happens?

	Does the progress go to 0%? It has to go to other than 100% ...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jacques@t...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: A user request

At 08:13 30/05/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>Someone is asking to  have the priority (and thus progress) always
>visible in the details window, even when invisible on the main list
>display (ie: When the columns are turned off). He uses the priority to
>filter on, but does not wish to see it.

I read it too :

At first, I felt it as "cosmetic", but often I find myself cosmetic as an 
important part of the ease of use of an app, on such a tiny screen, and I 
apreciate having as much control as possible on what and how things are 
displayed (and I'm rather satisfied with already many Shadow options).

Now I wonder : if you say yes, you should maybe think anew what's the 
purpose and use, hence the design of the "Details" view.

 From "details" that view could evolve towards a kind of "Item control 
panel" :

* maybe, 4 lines (instead of 8) would be enough for item label
* on the freed space you could have all other item parameters : priority 
and progress popups
* and previous item, next item "control panels" (according to the tree view 
order).

That way, when you have an important update in a project, you could spare 
many taps to modify or fine tune a bunch of items.

That's just free wandering. I have to think if I'd really need it, and 
formally ask for it ;-)


Jacques

From: kencn@a...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: Re: A user request

Jeff,

As usual, I see your point regarding linking the progress bar to the 
checkbox.  But as to there not being enough room on the details 
screen for a check box, I've long wondered why we really need 8 lines 
reserved for text.  Maybe I use Shadow differently than others, but I 
don't think I've ever had an entry with 8 lines of text and on the 
odd ocaisions I might, I think I could live with a 5 or 6 lines 
displayed considering it is a scrolling field.  I'm sure others' 
usage differs but my entries tend to be 2 or 3 lines long at most 
with longer stuff put in notes.

Ken

> 	Theres just so little space left .. where to put a checkbox 
there?
> 
> 	Re: progresss bar .. I've avoided it so far. Consider, if 
your'e
> progress is 70% now, and you check the item, the item is displayed 
as
> 100%, and counted as 100%. What if you uncheck it? It goes back to 
the
> true %age you last set. This is handy for when you accidentally 
check
> something off.
> 
> 	What if you set progress to 100 .. the item checks. Then you
> uncheck it.. what happens?
> 
> 	Does the progress go to 0%? It has to go to other than 
100% ...
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Wed, 30 May 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> screen for a check box, I've long wondered why we really need 8 lines 
> reserved for text.  Maybe I use Shadow differently than others, but I 
> don't think I've ever had an entry with 8 lines of text and on the 
> odd ocaisions I might, I think I could live with a 5 or 6 lines 
> displayed considering it is a scrolling field.  I'm sure others' 
> usage differs but my entries tend to be 2 or 3 lines long at most 
> with longer stuff put in notes.

	I too usually only have 5-10 words in that line; many people
however use quite a bit, so reduing the numebr of lines is the last thing
I consider doing. I'll think about these requests..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: glacefield@v...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: A user request

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	I too usually only have 5-10 words in that line; many people
> however use quite a bit, so reduing the numebr of lines is the last
> thing I consider doing. I'll think about these requests..

Is there any reason why the text field can't be scrollable (aside 
from a small matter of programming :-) ? Then you could get away with 
only 3 or 4 lines showing and open up all that real estate for 
additional Details...

Just a thought...

Greg

From: glacefield@v...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: A user request

Oops!  Sorry, Jeff, I had forgotten that field already *is* 
scrollable...

Still, I would think that since it is, you could shrink the number of 
concurrently displayed lines without getting too much flak...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., glacefield@v... wrote:
> Is there any reason why the text field can't be scrollable (aside 
> from a small matter of programming :-) ? Then you could get away 
with 
> only 3 or 4 lines showing and open up all that real estate for 
> additional Details...

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Wed, 30 May 2001 glacefield@v... wrote:

> > 	I too usually only have 5-10 words in that line; many people
> > however use quite a bit, so reduing the numebr of lines is the last
> > thing I consider doing. I'll think about these requests..
> 
> Is there any reason why the text field can't be scrollable (aside 
> from a small matter of programming :-) ? Then you could get away with 
> only 3 or 4 lines showing and open up all that real estate for 
> additional Details...

	It is scrollable, but the issue is visible text. Scrolling is a
time killer...

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: frazure@m...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: How can shadow help me run my life?

Peter -

When I described Alpha files in my office, I was literally describing 
that my hard copy file folders were filed alphabetically.  Sorry for 
the confusion.  But...what is Alpha Wolf?

Mike


> I do have one question that I suspect borders on "it is in the 
manual (here
> GTD)".  What do you mean when you say, "My office is set up with 
alpha
> files."  I have heard of an Alpha Wolf but not an Alpha File.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Peter R. Grierson, Ph.D.
> 
> I can't spell and my typing is lousy.
> Is it too much to hope that my lousy typing
> will correct my poor spelling?

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:46am
Subject: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

You can only download this if you plan on emailing me or the list with    
your findings -- if it works as advertised and improves your life. If you 
download it, let me know if it works for you, so I can release it to the  
general public ASAP!

There are three main differences in 1.5.6 from 1.5.4:

1) You can now have multiple item types per list.

        o) In the details window, in the top right, you can override the  
items view, which by default is the same as the list's current view. 

        o) In the list prefs there is a setting "assuming siblings view", 
which if activated means new items will attempt to keep the same view as  
their siblings: Select an item, hit New, and the new item will have the   
same view as the selected item. Pick a item, hti New Child, and the new   
item will take the view of an already existing child, or the selected 
item, whichever comes first. If the pref is unselected, items always 
assume the list view.

2) The crash bug that occurred during some copy/cut/paste operations
should not occur anymore! (This is the main reason for this release -- I  
dislike crash bugs! :)

3) The conduit now shows itself as version 1.1 on the Palm-side hotsync
log, if you look. The 1.1 conduit changes the XML tag names ever so
slightly, and properly marks the ISO language code so that international
characters are recognized correctly.
        
        Please give it a shot and let me know!
                
NOTE: I know there are some annoyances for some people int he installer
(setup156.exe) for windows. I'm waiting for the installer vendor to fix
those bugs -- theyr'e out of my control :(

http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow156gen.zip
http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow156win.zip


--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Bob Boudewyns  <boudewyns@b...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:07am
Subject: File Selector window

Is this the way this should work?

When I look at the File Selector window I see seven Files listed just now. Some of the lines show the list name and a file size-number and an icon. Some of lines also show (items checked/total items) information after the name. 

When I first reinstalled Shadow all the lines showed up without the (items checked/total items) information. As time passes one by one the information showed up on lines. I've come to realize I can cause the information to be displayed by opening a file and choosing to view it as a Tasklist. I can then return to the Checklist view and the information will remain on the File Selector screen.

This feels like odd behavior, so I thought I would mention it.

Bob Boudewyns
Boudewyns@B...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:46am
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Jeff:

I have downloaded the new version and will let you know of any 
problems.  Thanks for the consistent progress.

I can resist asking if having mixed types within a list was requested 
more than being able to select a category for each item?

Norman

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:58am
Subject: Feature Request/Thoughts

All:

Shadow's ability to create ToDOs provides a flexible approach to 
project planning.  In addition, this allows it to integrate well with 
DateBook.  However, I still crave a bit more flexibility.  In 
addition to ToDOs, I would like the ability to create memos from 
Shadow.

Imagine initiating a project within Shadow by adding a item.  Next, I 
would like to have notes associated with this new project.  Rather 
than leaving Shadow (to go to MemoPad to create a file), I would 
create a link to a MemoPad item.  The user could select one of the 
memos, or he could create a new memo by specifying a name.  Would 
others find this functionality useful?  

Norman

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:24pm
Subject: Re: File Selector window

On Wed, 30 May 2001, Bob Boudewyns wrote:

> Is this the way this should work?

	If a list's view has a visible checkbox, then the item count
should appear in the file listing. Otherwise, the check count shouldn't
show.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> I can resist asking if having mixed types within a list was requested 
> more than being able to select a category for each item?

	Much more.

	Actually, desktop app support is my main goal right now, but I
can't go releasing a Shadow update that only has desktop improvements for
Windows, leaving Generic and Mac behind.. so I bult some Palm features in.
So whenever 1.6 comes out, it'll be a step up from 1.5.x for everyone..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Jeff
First let me say that I believe the inclusion of different item types 
within a list, to be the single biggest advance in Shadow evolution 
since linking!

I would support this version as ready for full release with the 
following exceptions:-

1) Memorised zoom level.  I always zoom to the lowest practical level 
whilst working with a list.  Maximising screen real estate is 
essential to me and this does it effectively.  As a consequence I 
nearly always move from a zoomed Shadow list through a link to 
another app. and then return using McPhling.  Re-establishing the 
zoom level is an annoying extra step necessary prior to continuing in 
the list.

2) Custom List Settings.  As I understand the list types, 
the 'custom' option is available to any item but only in a single 
setting.  This setting is defined in list preferences.  The only way 
I have found to do this is to set the list to custom (in list 
preferences), adjust to the settings required, then return the list 
back to the required list type.  I presume this will become a more 
intuitive option in list preferences in the next version?

3) Set Program in Link Manager.  Here I have to admit to a major 
misunderstanding on my part!  Most of my links are to ToDos and 
Memos.  I have religiously set the same memo program every time I 
have created a new memo link (assuming each link could take a 
different memo app).  Last night I wanted to change from one memo app 
to another.  It took me 3 attempts before I realised that the program 
setting applies to the complete list.  Completely my mistake and now 
I understand, a perfectly workable system.  However for the sake of 
simplicity could I suggest that program settings be moved to List 
Preferences where that setting applies throughout the list?

4) New From.  The only bug I can report.  Datebook still does not 
show my list of appointments.  I only include this for completeness, 
it does not impact my use of Shadow and I know you have it on your 
list of problems.

I don't mean any of this to sound 'picky'.  The program is a major 
aspect of my Palm use!

Regards
Chris

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> Imagine initiating a project within Shadow by adding a item.  Next, I 
> would like to have notes associated with this new project.  Rather 
> than leaving Shadow (to go to MemoPad to create a file), I would 
> create a link to a MemoPad item.  The user could select one of the 
> memos, or he could create a new memo by specifying a name.  Would 
> others find this functionality useful?  

	Or hit /A (Menu, Add Note) or Details, Note, to add a note to the
item directly?

	There isn't an easy way for Shadow to launch Memopad, allow you to
enter a memo, and then when you exit, return to shadow and pick up which
memo you just created and link it. You'd have to go to memopad, create a
memo, return to shadow, and link to it. Seems like work.

	Is it not easier to just create the note in Shadow's normal note
system?

	I cuouild, perhaps, have an option on the note screen in Shadow
allowing you to export the note to a memo, and then delete it form shadow
and link to the memo version..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> First let me say that I believe the inclusion of different item types 
> within a list, to be the single biggest advance in Shadow evolution 
> since linking!

	heh. Let me know how you like the implementation. Its not as pure
as it could be, but it works the way Shadow has been built -- top retain
information, and let you change default views quickly. (ie: IF you change
an item to specifically Checklist, and then change the list to somethign
erlse.. the specific item will not change with the rest of the list.. its
overrridden. Is this cool? Also, if you chaneg an item to Note, it still
factors completion into percentages, since it has a percentage (defaulting
0%). So if you have an item as a task type, then change it override to
note, it still factors its last %age into %age calculations.. cool?)  Its
a complex thing to do :P

> I would support this version as ready for full release with the 
> following exceptions:-

	The next full release will have more desktop support; thats the
main thing. I'm hoping to cram in a the miscellaneous field that you can
enter anythign you like into (custom list widget), and maybe the
goto-return hack pref..

> 1) Memorised zoom level.  I always zoom to the lowest practical level 
> whilst working with a list.  Maximising screen real estate is 

	I'll be looking into this.

> I have found to do this is to set the list to custom (in list 
> preferences), adjust to the settings required, then return the list 
> back to the required list type.  I presume this will become a more 
> intuitive option in list preferences in the next version?

	How would you prefer it? I hide the Customize button, since new
users may be confused by its doing nothing unless list is in custom view
mode. I coudl make it always visible, and when you change custom settings
and hit OK, it coudl pop up an alert, "Do you wish to change this list to
a custom view? yes/no", where youcoudl hit No..

> to another.  It took me 3 attempts before I realised that the program 
> setting applies to the complete list.  Completely my mistake and now 
> I understand, a perfectly workable system.  However for the sake of 
> simplicity could I suggest that program settings be moved to List 
> Preferences where that setting applies throughout the list?

	The link goto settings are global to all lists. You set it once,
asnd it applies forever in all lists. Why is it in LM instead of prefs
like todo and datebook? Because there will soon be the ability to link to
a half dozen other things. Todo and datebook (and memo and addr, I
guess) don't vary.. everyone has them. But doc, bugme's, etc etc may or
may not exist on given machines.. so I figured I'd have the setter in the
location where they are linked to. I may change it around, since it is
cumbersom..

> 4) New From.  The only bug I can report.  Datebook still does not 
> show my list of appointments.  I only include this for completeness, 
> it does not impact my use of Shadow and I know you have it on your 
> list of problems.

	I'll be looking into it.. its quite starnge why this doesn't
work. Works fine for me of course, so makes it difficult to track down :P

> I don't mean any of this to sound 'picky'.  The program is a major 
> aspect of my Palm use!

	Hey, be picky -- if no one picked on it, I'd never know there was
bugs! :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:
> 
IF you change
> an item to specifically Checklist, and then change the list to 
somethign
> erlse.. the specific item will not change with the rest of the 
list.. its
> overrridden. Is this cool? 

Absolutely!

Also, if you chaneg an item to Note, it still
> factors completion into percentages, since it has a percentage 
(defaulting
> 0%). So if you have an item as a task type, then change it override 
to
> note, it still factors its last %age into %age calculations.. 
cool?)  Its
> a complex thing to do

Interesting.  I mix Note items amongst Checklist items as children of 
a Tasklist parent.  Does that mean that the parent will never show 
completed even if all the Checklist items are completed?

> 	The next full release will have more desktop support; thats 
the
> main thing. I'm hoping to cram in a the miscellaneous field that 
you can
> enter anythign you like into (custom list widget), and maybe the
> goto-return hack pref..

Miscellaneous Field would do it for me!

> 	How would you prefer it? I hide the Customize button, since 
new
> users may be confused by its doing nothing unless list is in custom 
view
> mode. I coudl make it always visible, and when you change custom 
settings
> and hit OK, it coudl pop up an alert, "Do you wish to change this 
list to
> a custom view? yes/no", where youcoudl hit No..

That would work.  Maybe emphasising the types in terms of List/Item 
rather than just List would also make it clearer, though I don't know 
how.

> 	The link goto settings are global to all lists. You set it 
once,
> asnd it applies forever in all lists. Why is it in LM instead of 
prefs
> like todo and datebook? Because there will soon be the ability to 
link to
> a half dozen other things. Todo and datebook (and memo and addr, I
> guess) don't vary.. everyone has them. But doc, bugme's, etc etc 
may or
> may not exist on given machines.. so I figured I'd have the setter 
in the
> location where they are linked to. I may change it around, since it 
is
> cumbersom..

If the app is set once be it for ToDo, Memo, Doc or anything else, 
then I think it should be set at an appropriate level.


Regards
Chris

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> Interesting.  I mix Note items amongst Checklist items as children of 
> a Tasklist parent.  Does that mean that the parent will never show 
> completed even if all the Checklist items are completed?

	Right; a parent, to be complete, requires all items underneath to
be complete, currently. If they're note items, you need to have them set
to 100%, even though they're not displaying a prog-bar.

	ie: This can be changed, but I'd like to get 1.5.6 out for the
bugfix. What is desirable?

	Only items currently viewing a prog-bar should count for progress?

	Or just display prio and prog options in the detail window always,
regardless of viewed widgets?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:
> 
> 	Right; a parent, to be complete, requires all items 
underneath to
> be complete, currently. If they're note items, you need to have 
them set
> to 100%, even though they're not displaying a prog-bar.

I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore niether 
starts nor ends.  However I think that the most general solution 
should apply.  I am happy to set Note Items to 100% at creation and 
leave it at that - just as long as I know.  I think you're in for 
some emails unless its clear!

Regards
Chris

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

At 05:28 AM 05/31/2001, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>         Actually, desktop app support is my main goal right now,  ...

I'm happy for all these other people who are getting their little detailed 
requests fulfilled, but there's another category of people like me who have 
very different needs.  I live and die by my desktop, not my 
handheld.  Having desktop software will make Shadow about 1000 times more 
useful for me.

When I got my Palm, I ditched Outlook, ACT, and all the other "productivity 
aids" and started running my life totally by the Palm Desktop, as long as 
I'm at the desk in one of my three offices, which is most of the time.  I 
have my Palm sync'd to the Desktop at all three locations.  I use the 
handheld only when I'm at outside appointments or in transit.

The only reason I got Shadow is because of what for me is the one 
deficiency of the Palm Desktop - insufficient categories and no 
subcategories.  Now I have to go through the additional step every day of 
setting the Palm up on my desk with my Palm keyboard, to handle my detailed 
ToDo's in Shadow.  It's really a pain and I consider it a workaround at 
best.  When I can finally sync and have it all on the desktop, task 
management will finally be working for me like it should.

So PLEASE keep your nose to the desktop grindstone now until it's 
done!  Not only will it help me, but I think you'll find that it will 
dramatically increase your customer base.

Thanks!

Mary Ann

P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies) tutorial would be 
MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of, nor are we interested in, 
using the process of exploration and discovery to uncover all the wondrous 
detailed features of Shadow.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 3:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore niether 
> starts nor ends.  However I think that the most general solution 
> should apply.  I am happy to set Note Items to 100% at creation and 
> leave it at that - just as long as I know.  I think you're in for 
> some emails unless its clear!

	The feature isn't intended to launch until 1.6.0. So I can
suppress it in the current binary if you want, but I rather thought people
would like to play with an early incarnation ;)

	Or perhaps I'll get some time to work on it, and release a 1.5.7
or 1.5.8 beta with improvements. Mostly I want to get the clipboard bug
fix out.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

Jeff:

I may have not been clear in my request.  I would not want Shadow to 
launch the MemoPad.  I would just like a simple link (similar to how 
ToDos currently work) created to the memo with the Shadow entry as 
its title.  Hopefully, this is clear.

My reason for the request is that I use Outlook primarily in my daily 
work.  The Palm/Shadow notes fields work fine on the Palm, but do not 
show up anywhere on the desktop or in other PIMs.  Consequently, I 
try to keep most of my notes in memos.


Norman


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:
> 
> > Imagine initiating a project within Shadow by adding a item.  
Next, I 
> > would like to have notes associated with this new project.  
Rather 
> > than leaving Shadow (to go to MemoPad to create a file), I would 
> > create a link to a MemoPad item.  The user could select one of 
the 
> > memos, or he could create a new memo by specifying a name.  Would 
> > others find this functionality useful?  
> 
> 	Or hit /A (Menu, Add Note) or Details, Note, to add a note to 
the
> item directly?
> 
> 	There isn't an easy way for Shadow to launch Memopad, allow 
you to
> enter a memo, and then when you exit, return to shadow and pick up 
which
> memo you just created and link it. You'd have to go to memopad, 
create a
> memo, return to shadow, and link to it. Seems like work.
> 
> 	Is it not easier to just create the note in Shadow's normal 
note
> system?
> 
> 	I cuouild, perhaps, have an option on the note screen in 
Shadow
> allowing you to export the note to a memo, and then delete it form 
shadow
> and link to the memo version..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> I may have not been clear in my request.  I would not want Shadow to 
> launch the MemoPad.  I would just like a simple link (similar to how 
> ToDos currently work) created to the memo with the Shadow entry as 
> its title.  Hopefully, this is clear.

	What shoudl be included in the memo, and what shoudl happen when
you inevitably change the data in the memo from your desktop? (ie: Shoudl
Shadow export the memo title, the attached note, priority, dates,
etc. Then if you change them, re-import them all?) Due to the free-form
nature of the memopad, it could get very messy indeed..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

If in-line editing (which would be nice) makes drag and drop not 
work -- forget the in-line editing. For me, the drag and drop is one 
of the most useful items of an outlineer like Shadow. As a project 
moves along, I can track things in place or drag them into my next 
meeting on this subject.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	So I may add a pref to do it one way or the other. Its a lot 
of
> work, and a lot of rework. ie: Consider -- drag and drop. Right 
now, you
> drag to move an item, and drop it off. If in inline-edit 
interfacem, then
> does dragging hilight text instead of moving an item?

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

My interest is in keeping the grafitti initiated new item. So easy. 
What other "new" items are needed in Shadow? Details, etc., are 
not "new" and edit a preference or a item style are not "new". If tap-
and-hold can pull editing options, then new is new. At least for me.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., kevinprice@u... wrote:

> If Jeff and the majority of current Shadow user's were willing to 
trade the Grafitti-creation functionality for the quick and intuitive 
pop-up file creation type functionality, I'd say this is an idea 
worth considering.

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:41pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

> I'm happy for all these other people who are getting their
> little detailed requests fulfilled, but there's another
> category of people like me who have very different needs.  I
> live and die by my desktop, not my handheld.  Having desktop
> software will make Shadow about 1000 times more useful for me.
> 
> When I got my Palm, I ditched Outlook, ACT, and all the other
> "productivity aids" and started running my life totally by the
> Palm Desktop, as long as I'm at the desk in one of my three
> offices, which is most of the time.  I have my Palm sync'd to
> the Desktop at all three locations.  I use the handheld only
> when I'm at outside appointments or in transit.

I'm also very much looking forward to Shadow's desktop companion but 
we have to keep in mind that Shadow is primarily a Palm application.

Those little detailed requests as you call them are the result of 
valid needs on the part of many Shadow users. And Palm functionality 
can be used on the road as well as in the office. So with all the 
work that Jeff has been putting into desktop development lately, it 
seems only reasonable to me if he spends a little time on keeping the 
Palm-side up to par as well.

> The only reason I got Shadow is because of what for me is the
> one deficiency of the Palm Desktop - insufficient categories
> and no subcategories.  Now I have to go through the additional
> step every day of setting the Palm up on my desk with my Palm
> keyboard, to handle my detailed ToDo's in Shadow. It's really a
> pain and I consider it a workaround at best.  When I can finally
> sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> finally be working for me like it should.

This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin 
with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops in 
sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a lot 
of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what you're 
looking for.

> So PLEASE keep your nose to the desktop grindstone now until
> it's done!  Not only will it help me, but I think you'll find
> that it will dramatically increase your customer base.

I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom 
purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop companion 
in the making, should be equally addressed. 

> P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> Shadow.

Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a 
product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty 
straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to 
ask them in this group!

Roy.

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

> I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore
> niether starts nor ends.

I agree with Chris. If you chose for an item not to have a progress 
value/indicator, you probably did that for a good reason (i.e. there 
is no progress to monitor for that particular item). So I'd also 
prefer those items not to influence their parent's 
progress/completion status.

Roy.

From: 1drummer@m...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: RE: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

<If in-line editing (which would be nice) makes drag and drop not
<work -- forget the in-line editing. For me, the drag and drop is one
<of the most useful items of an outlineer like Shadow. As a project
<moves along, I can track things in place or drag them into my next
<meeting on this subject.

How about a toggle button (or shortcut stroke) that would switch between
in-line editing and drag-n-drop mode?  Or is that too much code to be
worthwhile?  Just a thought...

Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., bstryd@a... wrote:
> If in-line editing (which would be nice) makes drag and drop not 
> work -- forget the in-line editing. For me, the drag and drop is
> one of the most useful items of an outlineer like Shadow. As a
> project moves along, I can track things in place or drag them
> into my next meeting on this subject.

Allow me to point to ListMaker again. :) In LM, when you tap an item, 
you can edit it in-place. If you tap-and-hold an item, the drag & 
drop functionality kicks in. This has always worked very well for me.

I'd like to see in-line editing as well; I think it's more intuitive 
and it alleviates the need for popping in and out of detail dialogs.

Roy.

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw@x> wrote:
> > I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore
> > niether starts nor ends.
> 
> I agree with Chris. If you chose for an item not to have a progress 
> value/indicator, you probably did that for a good reason (i.e. 
there 
> is no progress to monitor for that particular item). So I'd also 
> prefer those items not to influence their parent's 
> progress/completion status.
> 
> Roy.

I, uh, "third" this.  :)

-Joe Chott

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: Re: A user request

> 	It is scrollable, but the issue is visible text. Scrolling
> is a time killer...

True. But if you put 8-line items in your list, you'll be doing a lot 
of scrolling in the list itself too. I agree that it makes more sense 
to keep your item titles short and put the rest in the memo. And I 
too have been wondering why such a large portion of screen space in 
the details dialog has been reserved for the item title.

Roy.

P.S.: in-line editing would solve this issue! (am I mean or what? :))

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore
> > niether starts nor ends.
> 
> I agree with Chris. If you chose for an item not to have a progress 
> value/indicator, you probably did that for a good reason (i.e. there 
> is no progress to monitor for that particular item). So I'd also 
> prefer those items not to influence their parent's 
> progress/completion status.

	Wholeheartedly agreed. I don't expect to hold back 1.5.6 for this,
though .. the main attraction is the bugfix for clipboard, and I thought
it'd be fun to leave in the feature since its been long desired, and 90%
implemented. I'll be improving on it as requests come in, so that its
fully realized for the 1.6.0 release.

	Good?

	btw .. what do you think of 1.5.6? :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Thu, 31 May 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > 	It is scrollable, but the issue is visible text. Scrolling
> > is a time killer...
> 
> True. But if you put 8-line items in your list, you'll be doing a lot 
> of scrolling in the list itself too. I agree that it makes more sense 
> to keep your item titles short and put the rest in the memo. And I 
> too have been wondering why such a large portion of screen space in 
> the details dialog has been reserved for the item title.

	I'll likely take off a line soon, to put in the checkbox. Maybe
move the view-override to it too, since being in the top right is
pseudo-uncool ;)

> P.S.: in-line editing would solve this issue! (am I mean or what? :))

	Bring it up in a few months. Its definitely not going to happen
for awhile.

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > ... When I can finally
> > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > finally be working for me like it should.
>
>This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
>with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops in
>sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a lot
>of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what you're
>looking for.

I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all information at 
hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a majority 
of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant amount of 
time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it would be 
much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me the 
most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk, working 
on the desktop is MUCH easier.

>I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
>purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop companion
>in the making, should be equally addressed.

I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing about the 
desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental 
improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to make haste 
with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the 
potential customer base.

> > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > Shadow.
>
>Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
>product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty
>straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to
>ask them in this group!

Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* development.  Of 
course, that never happens, especially these days when everything is done 
at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote 
documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did it.  When 
you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in this 
community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets documented 
properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under 
development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner 
realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some tech writer 
to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be next to 
useless.

Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a tutorial.  It's 
hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The 
descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't tell you 
anything about the various applications of the the product and how to get 
started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user 
base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have different 
priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not most, are 
about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist, or about 
putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to me as 
just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it 
works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a newcomer 
to jump in with no idea of where to start.

Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making requests 
like everyone else.

Mary Ann

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001, Mary Ann Chapman wrote:

> >Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
> >product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty
> >straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to
> >ask them in this group!
> 
> Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* development.  Of 
> course, that never happens, especially these days when everything is done 
> at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote 
> documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did it.  When 

	You probably were the only one, but I'll go out on a limb, as I
always try and be rigourous when I can. Documentation is one of the most
important pieces of the puzzle. Shadow really does need a User's Guide,
and if you go back in the archives I've eluded to trying to write one a
few times. I just haven't the time. (And thats the truth, as my wife would
tell you .. I'm a workaholic and by no means lazy, I just can't get to
it! :)  And it is extremely time consuming -- so is development, but
Shadow is well developed so extending is not difficult. Writing a whole
new 100k document is daunting ;)

	Perhaps after 1.6.0 (or for 1.6.0) I'll sit for a week or two and
see what needs to be done..

> descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't tell you 
> anything about the various applications of the the product and how to get 
> started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user 
> base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

	What I'd like is more of what someone posted awhile back .. saying
"heres how it improved my life" with details. Thats extremely
important. One of the big problems is that I am not a typical user or even
a power user -- I'm a developer. I do things differently. If I need
something, I buidl it. I don't use other applications as much as most
people -- I build things. So writing user-perspective documents is harder
for me than it should be :/

> Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making requests 
> like everyone else.

	And thats good. Lets not have a big battle -- theres many types of
uses for the application, and each audience has its own agenda. Thats
cool. We'll work out the way to make everyone as happy as we can :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:26pm
Subject: Stupid question

I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how I 
might be able to do this?

-Joe Chott

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Thanks for your response.  You're obviously doing a great job when everyone 
is so defensive of you.  :-)

At 01:10 PM 05/31/2001, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>... Writing a whole new 100k document is daunting ;)
>         Perhaps after 1.6.0 (or for 1.6.0) I'll sit for a week or two and
>see what needs to be done..

Well, here's a suggestion -- use Shadow to make a comprehensive multi-level 
outline, then just fill in the top level items.  That would be a good 
start.  Then you could slowly work your way down to the most tedious 
ones.  And in the meantime, we morons (non-techies) could have *something*.

>         What I'd like is more of what someone posted awhile back .. saying
>"heres how it improved my life" with details. Thats extremely
>important. One of the big problems is that I am not a typical user or even
>a power user -- I'm a developer. I do things differently. If I need
>something, I buidl it. I don't use other applications as much as most
>people -- I build things. So writing user-perspective documents is harder
>for me than it should be :/

That's what I was saying.  Most programmer-written user documentation is 
obtuse to the typical user.  This suggestion is a good one.  There are 
probably a lot of people using it for things you never thought of.

OK, here's my simpleton use:

In Shadow, I have a file for every client and for every other aspect of my 
life that has ToDo's (the symphony I'm president of, home maintenance - in 
my case a boat, planned purchases, financial tasks, etc.).  These outlines 
can be several levels deep, since for each client or other topic, I may 
have several projects going, with subprojects and individual tasks.  On my 
Palm, I have a ToDo category for today and each of the next few days coming 
up (about a week's worth), in addition to other categories like my grocery 
list.

I know this is a little convoluted, but it works for me.  Every day I check 
each of the days ahead and reallocate tasks.  When I see that a task that 
is waiting on Shadow can be fitted into my schedule, I link it to the Palm 
ToDo's, then give it a Palm category that puts it onto a specific upcoming 
day.  Meanwhile, I can go into Shadow and get an overview of everything 
that needs to be done sometime in the future.  For tasks that come up 
suddenly and have to be done in the next day or so, I bypass Shadow and add 
them as a Palm ToDo.

Shadow is probably overkill for this, but it was the only Palm-compatible 
application I could find that could do it.  I'm sure I could get much more 
use out of Shadow if I could easily find out about other capabilities, but 
there is ZERO time in my life to try to ferret them out.  So I'll look 
forward to whatever degree of user documentation you manage to put together.

Mary Ann

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

I have used peditPro and WordSmith.  Once the application is set 
(using the Set Program button in the Link Manager Add screen) memos 
are opened with that app.  Operation is faultless for either program.

Chris


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how I 
> might be able to do this?
> 
> -Joe Chott

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

On Thu, 31 May 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how I 
> might be able to do this?

	Some people have success with peditpro, others do not. PEditpro
does some nonstandard stuff, and has an API for other apps to use it. Its
annoying, but I guess I'll add some special pedit-friendly code one of
these days, just to make it easier for everyone. Naughty pedit :)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

When I make the link, I have the following choices for pedit:

pedit32Launch...
peditLauncher
pedit04Launch...

I have tried all three of them.  If I select any of them, when I try 
to "go to" the link, the screen goes white, then goes right back to 
ShadowPlan.

I happen to own WordSmith too, so I tried that, and it works as I 
would expect.  So memopad and WordSmith work, whereas, my preferred 
choice, peditpro, does not.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., chris.greenwood@t... wrote:
> I have used peditPro and WordSmith.  Once the application is set 
> (using the Set Program button in the Link Manager Add screen) memos 
> are opened with that app.  Operation is faultless for either 
program.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> > I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> > memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how 
I 
> > might be able to do this?
> > 
> > -Joe Chott

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

Jeff,

I went ahead and provided Paul Nevai with the information.  I think 
he will be contacting you about whatever is making pedit unique.  I 
know he at least -*TRYS*- very very hard to "play by the rules".

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> 
> > I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> > memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how 
I 
> > might be able to do this?
> 
> 	Some people have success with peditpro, others do not. 
PEditpro
> does some nonstandard stuff, and has an API for other apps to use 
it. Its
> annoying, but I guess I'll add some special pedit-friendly code one 
of
> these days, just to make it easier for everyone. Naughty pedit :)
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Doug Roberts  <doug@b...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:00pm
Subject: RE: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

I appreciate and echo Mary Ann's comments. Roy mentioned other solutions for
keeping in Synch. I've looked at a number and I think the Palm works the
best, but the lack of categories support is one of the major problems.
-Doug Roberts

-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Ann Chapman [mailto:chapman@f...]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:43 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com; shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!


At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > ... When I can finally
> > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > finally be working for me like it should.
>
>This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
>with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops in
>sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a lot
>of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what you're
>looking for.

I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all information at
hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a majority
of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant amount of
time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it would be
much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me the
most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk, working
on the desktop is MUCH easier.

>I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
>purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop companion
>in the making, should be equally addressed.

I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing about the
desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental
improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to make haste
with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the
potential customer base.

> > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > Shadow.
>
>Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
>product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty
>straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to
>ask them in this group!

Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* development.  Of
course, that never happens, especially these days when everything is done
at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote
documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did it.  When
you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in this
community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets documented
properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under
development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner
realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some tech writer
to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be next to
useless.

Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a tutorial.  It's
hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The
descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't tell you
anything about the various applications of the the product and how to get
started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user
base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have different
priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not most, are
about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist, or about
putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to me as
just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it
works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a newcomer
to jump in with no idea of where to start.

Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making requests
like everyone else.

Mary Ann


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Obviously I am missing something here.  What exactly is the "lack of 
categories support" ?

I have read this in several places, but I have been happily using 
categories since I started with the first palmpilot made by 
USRobotics. . .

-Joe Chott


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Doug Roberts" <doug@b...> wrote:
> I appreciate and echo Mary Ann's comments. Roy mentioned other 
solutions for
> keeping in Synch. I've looked at a number and I think the Palm 
works the
> best, but the lack of categories support is one of the major 
problems.
> -Doug Roberts
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mary Ann Chapman [mailto:chapman@f...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:43 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@y...; shadow-discuss@y...
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!
> 
> 
> At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > > ... When I can finally
> > > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > > finally be working for me like it should.
> >
> >This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
> >with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops 
in
> >sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a 
lot
> >of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what 
you're
> >looking for.
> 
> I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all 
information at
> hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a 
majority
> of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant 
amount of
> time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it 
would be
> much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me 
the
> most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk, 
working
> on the desktop is MUCH easier.
> 
> >I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
> >purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop 
companion
> >in the making, should be equally addressed.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing 
about the
> desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental
> improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to 
make haste
> with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the
> potential customer base.
> 
> > > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > > Shadow.
> >
> >Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
> >product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is 
pretty
> >straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free 
to
> >ask them in this group!
> 
> Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* 
development.  Of
> course, that never happens, especially these days when everything 
is done
> at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote
> documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did 
it.  When
> you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in 
this
> community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets 
documented
> properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under
> development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner
> realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some 
tech writer
> to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be 
next to
> useless.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a 
tutorial.  It's
> hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The
> descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't 
tell you
> anything about the various applications of the the product and how 
to get
> started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep 
the user
> base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have 
different
> priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not 
most, are
> about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist, 
or about
> putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to 
me as
> just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it
> works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a 
newcomer
> to jump in with no idea of where to start.
> 
> Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making 
requests
> like everyone else.
> 
> Mary Ann
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: nevai@m...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

Hi Joe:

> pedit32Launch...
> peditLauncher
> pedit04Launch...
>
> I have tried all three of them.  If I select any of them, when I try

Of course not.

1. peditLauncher is obsolete
2. the other two don't take arguments
3. you need to use the pedit SDK.

Best regards, Paul [the pedit guy]

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

I use them happily, too, but there is a limit of 15.  I need to have a 
category for each client, and within each client, I need to be able to list 
various projects and tasks within those projects.  Even sticking only to 
active clients and projects, that's way more than 15, and then there's no 
category left for anything else like my grocery list.  There's NO WAY to do 
it in ToDo's on the Palm.  If it had either unlimited categories or 
subcategories within categories, I could work it out, but neither is available.

Mary Ann

At 04:03 PM 05/31/2001, verxion@p... wrote:
>Obviously I am missing something here.  What exactly is the "lack of
>categories support" ?
>
>I have read this in several places, but I have been happily using
>categories since I started with the first palmpilot made by
>USRobotics. . .
>
>-Joe Chott
>
>
>--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Doug Roberts" <doug@b...> wrote:
> > I appreciate and echo Mary Ann's comments. Roy mentioned other
>solutions for
> > keeping in Synch. I've looked at a number and I think the Palm
>works the
> > best, but the lack of categories support is one of the major
>problems.
> > -Doug Roberts
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mary Ann Chapman [mailto:chapman@f...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:43 PM
> > To: shadow-discuss@y...; shadow-discuss@y...
> > Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!
> >
> >
> > At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > > > ... When I can finally
> > > > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > > > finally be working for me like it should.
> > >
> > >This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
> > >with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops
>in
> > >sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a
>lot
> > >of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what
>you're
> > >looking for.
> >
> > I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all
>information at
> > hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a
>majority
> > of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant
>amount of
> > time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it
>would be
> > much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me
>the
> > most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk,
>working
> > on the desktop is MUCH easier.
> >
> > >I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
> > >purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop
>companion
> > >in the making, should be equally addressed.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing
>about the
> > desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental
> > improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to
>make haste
> > with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the
> > potential customer base.
> >
> > > > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > > > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > > > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > > > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > > > Shadow.
> > >
> > >Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
> > >product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is
>pretty
> > >straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free
>to
> > >ask them in this group!
> >
> > Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during*
>development.  Of
> > course, that never happens, especially these days when everything
>is done
> > at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote
> > documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did
>it.  When
> > you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in
>this
> > community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets
>documented
> > properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under
> > development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner
> > realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some
>tech writer
> > to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be
>next to
> > useless.
> >
> > Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a
>tutorial.  It's
> > hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The
> > descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't
>tell you
> > anything about the various applications of the the product and how
>to get
> > started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep
>the user
> > base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.
> >
> > I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have
>different
> > priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not
>most, are
> > about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist,
>or about
> > putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to
>me as
> > just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it
> > works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a
>newcomer
> > to jump in with no idea of where to start.
> >
> > Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making
>requests
> > like everyone else.
> >
> > Mary Ann
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Stupid question

On Thu, 31 May 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I went ahead and provided Paul Nevai with the information.  I think 
> he will be contacting you about whatever is making pedit unique.  I 
> know he at least -*TRYS*- very very hard to "play by the rules".

	We've already talked about it, and I have what I need.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Stupid question

On Thu, 31 May 2001 nevai@m... wrote:

> Best regards, Paul [the pedit guy]

	Wow, waycool to have you posting in the Shadow forums :)

	Paul and I chatted earlier and he fed me the necessary bits from
the API. Its a matter of free time and adding the custom stuff for
pedit.  As mentioned, I've spent the last while working on the desktop
side of Shadow, instead of focusing on the palm side.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: egroups@R...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 1:36am
Subject: Exporting Shadow Info

I'm new to Shadow, having recently registered. I like the product and 
am trying to use it to organize my life (although that may be a 
hopeless task). 

One function I'm trying to use Shadow for is a project that I am 
heading up. I put in the tasks and sub tasks. Then I exported the 
file to memo, put it in Word and distributed it to the people 
involved in the task. Great first step.

Next week we are meeting and will determine target dates for the 
tasks. I can see how Shadow can handle this easily and I can filter 
them in Shadow. But what I also need is a way to tell everyone the 
tasks *with Target Dates*. Unfortuntately none of the exports 
includes dates (unless I'm missing something, please tell me).

I understand a desktop version is coming (I can't wait!). I also 
understand there is an XML file created on my computer whenever a 
HotSync is done. Unfortunately I don't have time to learn how to code 
XML. Although I've done a lot of programming, I want someting simple.

So here's my request: Is there a *simple* way to get a Shadow file 
with Target dates into Word (or any other readable format)?

Thanks for your ideas.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 1:56am
Subject: Re: Exporting Shadow Info

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 egroups@R... wrote:

> Next week we are meeting and will determine target dates for the 
> tasks. I can see how Shadow can handle this easily and I can filter 
> them in Shadow. But what I also need is a way to tell everyone the 
> tasks *with Target Dates*. Unfortuntately none of the exports 
> includes dates (unless I'm missing something, please tell me).

	I can easily add this.. I just want someone to tell me exact
layout I should use that makes it easiest for everyone :)

> So here's my request: Is there a *simple* way to get a Shadow file 
> with Target dates into Word (or any other readable format)?

	Not yet; the dates aren't included :(

	If a few of you agree on formatyting, I'll put it in soon.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 2:07am
Subject: Re: Stupid question

Ok, time for the idiot to let you in on the truth. . .

Paul said that peditLauncher was obsolete.  I didn't really 
understand what he meant.  All I knew was that I did NOT see 
a "peditpro" listed as a possible app to be launched by ShadowPlan, I 
saw three "peditXXLauncher" files, where XX was nothing, where it was 
04, and where it was 32.  After Paul said what he said, I looked 
closely on my flash rom, I had a pedit!, and a pedit04!, as well as 
pedit32!, and peditpro.  The problem was that the pedit! icon had the 
very same appid as pedit04!, and so it wasn't showing up under 
the "app" listing.  This was somehow causing peditpro to not show up 
in the shadowplan file listing.  So it was no fault of ShadowPlan's 
and no fault of pedit's.

I am -*VERY*- sincerely sorry for having troubled both of you with 
this, I just could not figure it out and it looked like other people 
had this issue as well.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 nevai@m... wrote:
> 
> > Best regards, Paul [the pedit guy]
> 
> 	Wow, waycool to have you posting in the Shadow forums :)
> 
> 	Paul and I chatted earlier and he fed me the necessary bits 
from
> the API. Its a matter of free time and adding the custom stuff for
> pedit.  As mentioned, I've spent the last while working on the 
desktop
> side of Shadow, instead of focusing on the palm side.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: tombishop@q...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 3:03am
Subject: Filter for NO Target Date

Is it possible to filter for NO target date?

From: Peter R Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 3:18am
Subject: Re: How can shadow help me run my life?

On Thu, 31 May 2001 Mike frazure@m...
Wrote: But...what is an Alpha Wolf?

=====
An Alpha Wolf is the dominant male wolf.  He is the reason  for the phrase,
"The Leader of the Pack"

Peter R.

I can't spell and my typing is lousy.
Is it too much to hope that my lousy typing
will correct my poor spelling?

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:25am
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

> I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing
> about the desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see
> is incremental improvements in the Palm version.

I don't think that's a matter of giving Palm updates a higher 
priority but rather because of the fact that those small updates are 
vastly less time consuming than building a complete desktop 
application and a complementing conduit from scratch. I'm sure, even 
though I'm not Jeff's personal secretary, that most of hist time 
still goes to desktop development at this moment. Still, there are 
lots of Shadow users who may never even use the desktop or for whom 
relatively little time consuming corrections could make their lives 
easier. If on a total projected implementation span of 4 months this 
should delay the release of the desktop component by a few days, then 
I think that's defendable.

> > Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially
> > for a product that is still under development. The use of
> > Shadow is pretty straightforward but if you have any specific
> > questions, feel free to ask them in this group!
> 
> Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during*
> development.  Of course, that never happens, especially these
> days when everything is done at warp speed.  When I was doing
> software development, I wrote documentation as I went.  I may
> have been the only one, but I did it.

I'm a software developer myself and I don't do it (writing 
documentation along the way that is). I did make a feeble attempt at 
this once, but soon gave up once I found out that I frequently had to 
re-write complete sections of my manual because the user decided that 
he wanted things to work a little different. Before long, I spent 
more time on documenting than I did on developing.

> When you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most
> people in this community, it's difficult to see the overview,
> and it never gets documented properly.

Jeff already pointed out in one of his posts that he is a developer, 
not a user. I can relate to that very well. Developers are often 
either unable, or less able to write good a good user manual for 
their software, simply because their approach is technical, not 
functional.

> And really, when will it ever not be "still under development'?

When you issue a public release. That's the point in time when you 
(the developer) decide that you have come to an acceptable level of 
stability, functionality and user acceptance. And that's also the 
only time when a user manual is required. Intermediate (beta) 
releases are only aimed at beta-testers who choose to work with 
incomplete software and lack of documentation.

> With most software products, at some point the owner realizes
> that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some tech
> writer to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns
> out to be next to useless.

Only if the tech writer is next to useless in his job. A good tech 
writer should be able to talk both developer and user jive, 
communicate with the developer to make sure that he got his facts 
straight, and have his document proof-read by a cross section of the 
targeted customer base.

> Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a
> tutorial.  It's hard to ask questions about features you don't
> know are there.  The descriptions of screens that we have now
> are good, but they don't tell you anything about the various
> applications of the the product and how to get started using
> them.

This I agree with, and it's a problem with most software these days. 
I remember the day when Microsoft decided to replace their back-
breaking multi-volume product manuals with task oriented user guides. 
I still don't like them, but I think that they are a step in the 
right direction and a sign that complaints such as yours have been 
heard.

It's true that most software manuals are basically reference guides. 
What most users need is a tutorial and/or step-by-step instructions 
to lead them through the process of performing every day tasks with 
their newly aquired product. And again, while a developer may produce 
a decent reference guide, it's the tutorial-approach that most have 
difficulty with.

> The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user base
> restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

I don't think that's true. If a piece of software is truly valuable, 
there won't be many users who'd give up on it because the 
documentation is inadequate. There will be complaints about that, 
sure, but a good product with a crummy manual is still better than a 
crummy product with a good manual.

> When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it works",
> I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a
> newcomer to jump in with no idea of where to start.

Never mind those posts; if an application should only work when you 
pull out hacks, there's something fishy going on. Don't let that 
scare you off, just keep talking to Jeff if you feel that something 
is not working the way it should. No developer in his right mind 
would want to have the proper behaviour of his software depend on 
third party hacks.

> Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making
> requests like everyone else.

Keep up the good work. :)

Roy.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 11:49am
Subject: Re: Filter for NO Target Date

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 tombishop@q... wrote:

> Is it possible to filter for NO target date?

	Off the top of my head, I don't think so. I will be adding custom
filtering sooner than later..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Web Surfer  <surfweb2@y...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 1:40pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 128

Hello all,

Love Shadow.

> requests fulfilled, but there's another category of
> people like me who have 
> very different needs.  I live and die by my desktop,
> not my 
> handheld.  Having desktop software will make Shadow
> about 1000 times more 
> useful for me.

I second Mary Ann's comment.  Having Shadow on PC
would be great!  It's much easier to add/modify/delete
on the PC.  Majority of the work (and most of our
time) are spent on a PC, and using the Palm to
view/add/modify/delete on the road.

Hope someone's listen :-)

Mark.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From: Matthew.Blair@i...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 2:44pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	btw .. what do you think of 1.5.6? :)
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

Jeff - I like the support for multiple item types (as well I should, 
since I'm one of the people who asked for it recently).  Good job!

There are two things that I think would improve this even more:

1)  In-place editing of item type.  I am currently trying to retrofit 
some of my existing lists to use this feature, and it is kind of a 
pain to hit details on all of the items I wish to change.  Plus, I 
think this would be useful during new list creations.

2)  Ability to set item type by level, much like the way one sets 
numbering preferences.  For example, top-level defaults to Note, 2nd 
level defaults to List type, and 3rd level defaults to Note.  Or 
whatever.  This would give a user a powerful feature with which to 
rapidly create lists of a certain structure.

And I "fourth" the feeling that progress bars should be taken off 
notes.

Finally - I think that at some point, you should reorganize all of 
the options :)  It sometimes feels like I have 5 different places 
that I can find to set any given option on a list.  Perhaps I just 
haven't seen the logical structure of it all, but that's my 
impression right now.  Granted, I know where to find most of this 
stuff, but it just seems like there could be a better way to organize 
all of the preferences...

All that being said, I do want to thank you for bringing this feature 
in!

Matthew

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 Matthew.Blair@i... wrote:

> 1)  In-place editing of item type.  I am currently trying to retrofit 
> some of my existing lists to use this feature, and it is kind of a 
> pain to hit details on all of the items I wish to change.  Plus, I 
> think this would be useful during new list creations.

	When creating new items and lists, if you activate the "assume
view of sibling", you'll probably be in pretty good shape. So if you only
need faster changing of view for old lists, then eventually it won't be a
problem...

> 2)  Ability to set item type by level, much like the way one sets 
> numbering preferences.  For example, top-level defaults to Note, 2nd 
> level defaults to List type, and 3rd level defaults to Note.  Or 
> whatever.  This would give a user a powerful feature with which to 
> rapidly create lists of a certain structure.

	IS the "Assume view.." pref good enough? I know its not rigid. I
guess I could add a list pref to lock all items of the same level to the
same view, so that changing one changes all of them on the same
level. (and, if Susan is reading, yes, I'd do it for autonumbers > 3 too
;)

> And I "fourth" the feeling that progress bars should be taken off 
> notes.

	Counting them, you mean. Notes certainly don't have progress bars
displayed.

> that I can find to set any given option on a list.  Perhaps I just 
> haven't seen the logical structure of it all, but that's my 
> impression right now.  Granted, I know where to find most of this 
> stuff, but it just seems like there could be a better way to organize 
> all of the preferences...

	Probably ;) I never meant for it to be this flexible, originally
:)  There is some sense to it -- an item, or list, or application can have
prefs. So the app itself has two prefs (display and operational), and the
list has prefs, and the item has prefs.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: kencn@a...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Jeff,

With the exception of going back to change a bunch of existing item 
types, the "Assume view..." works OK.  The preference to lock items 
would go a long way toward handling that issue.  Would this be 
locking all siblings under a single parent (like numbering now) or 
locking all items at that level across the entire list?   I guess you 
could have level defaults that apply across an entire list specified 
as a list preference, like numbering.  Here you could specify 
an 'enforced' style at each level or 'no preference' in which case 
the assume sibling and lock options take effect.  Man, this gets 
complicated in a hurry. 

On a separate subject, when you get a chance, could you look into 
fixing the connection to Action Names when using it to view 
contacts.  Works great with todos and appts and I assume it's a 
similar fix.  

Thanks.
Ken
> 
> 	IS the "Assume view.." pref good enough? I know its not 
rigid. I
> guess I could add a list pref to lock all items of the same level 
to the
> same view, so that changing one changes all of them on the same
> level. (and, if Susan is reading, yes, I'd do it for autonumbers > 
3 too
> ;)
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 5:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> With the exception of going back to change a bunch of existing item 
> types, the "Assume view..." works OK.  The preference to lock items 
> would go a long way toward handling that issue.  Would this be 
> locking all siblings under a single parent (like numbering now) or 
> locking all items at that level across the entire list?   I guess you 

	The plan is to build it one of two ways:

One
---
* A list option to make all items of same level (list wide) use the same
  autonumber convention
* A list option to make all items of the same level (list wide) use the
  same view convention
* Remove the autonumber settings from the list pref screen, maybe

Two
---
* A list option to make all items of same level (list wide) use the same
  view convention
* A list option to make all items of the same level, more than 3, use the
  same autonumber convention.
* Leave the list pref autonumebr settings stuff in, since the lock
  only applies to items in level 3+, since you can manually lock them
  in the list pref screen)

	Option one seems to make the most sense, in a way, though it would
make things a little unfamiliar to people. Both share the lock pref for
views, so I may implement that soon, so that we can see how it works out..

> On a separate subject, when you get a chance, could you look into 
> fixing the connection to Action Names when using it to view 
> contacts.  Works great with todos and appts and I assume it's a 
> similar fix.  

	Its just an hour of experimentation with AN to see what works. Its
just tedious and low on my lsit right now :/

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Matthew.Blair@i...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 5:40pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 Matthew.Blair@i... wrote:
> 
> > 1)  In-place editing of item type.  I am currently trying to 
retrofit 
> > some of my existing lists to use this feature, and it is kind of 
a 
> > pain to hit details on all of the items I wish to change.  Plus, 
I 
> > think this would be useful during new list creations.
> 
> 	When creating new items and lists, if you activate the "assume
> view of sibling", you'll probably be in pretty good shape. So if 
you only
> need faster changing of view for old lists, then eventually it 
won't be a
> problem...
> 
> > 2)  Ability to set item type by level, much like the way one sets 
> > numbering preferences.  For example, top-level defaults to Note, 
2nd 
> > level defaults to List type, and 3rd level defaults to Note.  Or 
> > whatever.  This would give a user a powerful feature with which 
to 
> > rapidly create lists of a certain structure.
> 
> 	IS the "Assume view.." pref good enough? I know its not 
rigid. I
> guess I could add a list pref to lock all items of the same level 
to the
> same view, so that changing one changes all of them on the same
> level. (and, if Susan is reading, yes, I'd do it for autonumbers > 
3 too
> ;)

I think I'm actually asking more for a default item type by level, 
but not locked.  I.e., many of my lists would probably have a note at 
the top level, a note at the 2nd level, and a checklist at the 3rd 
level.  Or something like that.  But I would still like the ability 
to individually change items at any level to a different item type.  
What I'm really saying is that I don't want it locked.

From: Matthew.Blair@i...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 5:42pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Jeff, one bug I found is that when I changed a previously checked-off 
item into a note item, the note was still crossed out.

Matt

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> You can only download this if you plan on emailing me or the list 
with    
> your findings -- if it works as advertised and improves your life. 
If you 
> download it, let me know if it works for you, so I can release it 
to the  
> general public ASAP!
> 
> There are three main differences in 1.5.6 from 1.5.4:
> 
> 1) You can now have multiple item types per list.
> 
>         o) In the details window, in the top right, you can 
override the  
> items view, which by default is the same as the list's current 
view. 
> 
>         o) In the list prefs there is a setting "assuming siblings 
view", 
> which if activated means new items will attempt to keep the same 
view as  
> their siblings: Select an item, hit New, and the new item will have 
the   
> same view as the selected item. Pick a item, hti New Child, and the 
new   
> item will take the view of an already existing child, or the 
selected 
> item, whichever comes first. If the pref is unselected, items 
always 
> assume the list view.
> 
> 2) The crash bug that occurred during some copy/cut/paste operations
> should not occur anymore! (This is the main reason for this 
release -- I  
> dislike crash bugs! :)
> 
> 3) The conduit now shows itself as version 1.1 on the Palm-side 
hotsync
> log, if you look. The 1.1 conduit changes the XML tag names ever so
> slightly, and properly marks the ISO language code so that 
international
> characters are recognized correctly.
>         
>         Please give it a shot and let me know!
>                 
> NOTE: I know there are some annoyances for some people int he 
installer
> (setup156.exe) for windows. I'm waiting for the installer vendor to 
fix
> those bugs -- theyr'e out of my control :(
> 
> http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow156gen.zip
> http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow156win.zip
> 
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 Matthew.Blair@i... wrote:

> Jeff, one bug I found is that when I changed a previously checked-off 
> item into a note item, the note was still crossed out.

	Its still checked off ;)

	(ie: Shadow remembers all the details you specify; for instance,
if you change a checked item to a note, and then back to a checklist item,
it will remember its check state). The mixed-view code does not yet
consider type ov the items .. it just displays them right, and handles
events to the items right.

	I will be changing the way mixed items are handled in the future
to deal with things like this.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:16pm
Subject: View mode? Easy... want it?

Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?

	Someone made this suggestion. Sounds good, for those with long
lists. Its been suggested before, but this sounds very easy to implement,
and useful.

	Consider.. you want a fast way to scroll up and down quickly, in
terms of whole pages more or less. Not lines at a time, since you can use
the mini scroll arrows for that..

	In the screen somewhere I'd have a toggle for view-mode, or
perhaps as an item in the [V] popmenu. You're in normal edit mode as you
are now, or in view mode. View or Edit mode woudl be saved in the list, so
if you left the list in view mode, you'd come back and still be
there. Might be an easy way to sop yourself from changing items.

	In View mode, you could divide the screen into 4 horizontal bars,
equally sized. Maybe 6.

	If you divide it into 4 regions:

	Tap top of screen, scroll up two screens. (maybe 3?)
	Tap above middle of screen, scroll up one page.
	Tap below middle, scroll down one page.
	Tap near bottom, scroll down two screens (maybe 3?)

	If you divide it into 6 regions, you could perhaps have the
middlemost two scroll up and down 5 lines, or maybe one screen, and have
the next outter pair go 2 screens, and the outermost pair do 5 screens?

	I am talking about simple tap. NOT tap and drag -- I'm not likely
going to make a smooth scroll (way too much work; like in painting
programs). Also, note tap and drag to go up and down a line at a time --
Shadow has a lot of renderingh work (due to all these custom options and
view options), so rendering is sluggish .. you don't see it much, but if
you were to drag the screen and have it render line by line, you'd see it
:) 

	So this is just a quick way to leap down a few screens at a time,
for those with long lists. Could be an onscreen toggle, or a [V] popmenu
toggle or grafitti shortcut.

	Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 8:44pm
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

Sounds really good to me!  With the toggle, it isn't like it will 
disrupt people that don't want it. . .  :)

And besides, I am all set to start making some hella long lists.  :)

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?
> 
> 	Someone made this suggestion. Sounds good, for those with long
> lists. Its been suggested before, but this sounds very easy to 
implement,
> and useful.
> 
> 	Consider.. you want a fast way to scroll up and down quickly, 
in
> terms of whole pages more or less. Not lines at a time, since you 
can use
> the mini scroll arrows for that..
> 
> 	In the screen somewhere I'd have a toggle for view-mode, or
> perhaps as an item in the [V] popmenu. You're in normal edit mode 
as you
> are now, or in view mode. View or Edit mode woudl be saved in the 
list, so
> if you left the list in view mode, you'd come back and still be
> there. Might be an easy way to sop yourself from changing items.
> 
> 	In View mode, you could divide the screen into 4 horizontal 
bars,
> equally sized. Maybe 6.
> 
> 	If you divide it into 4 regions:
> 
> 	Tap top of screen, scroll up two screens. (maybe 3?)
> 	Tap above middle of screen, scroll up one page.
> 	Tap below middle, scroll down one page.
> 	Tap near bottom, scroll down two screens (maybe 3?)
> 
> 	If you divide it into 6 regions, you could perhaps have the
> middlemost two scroll up and down 5 lines, or maybe one screen, and 
have
> the next outter pair go 2 screens, and the outermost pair do 5 
screens?
> 
> 	I am talking about simple tap. NOT tap and drag -- I'm not 
likely
> going to make a smooth scroll (way too much work; like in painting
> programs). Also, note tap and drag to go up and down a line at a 
time --
> Shadow has a lot of renderingh work (due to all these custom 
options and
> view options), so rendering is sluggish .. you don't see it much, 
but if
> you were to drag the screen and have it render line by line, you'd 
see it
> :) 
> 
> 	So this is just a quick way to leap down a few screens at a 
time,
> for those with long lists. Could be an onscreen toggle, or a [V] 
popmenu
> toggle or grafitti shortcut.
> 
> 	Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 0:59am
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

At 16:16 01/06/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>         Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?

I'd use it pretty much if toggling view-mode was one tap only (that is a 
button on the main screen)

Jacques

From: egroups@R...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 1:34am
Subject: Re: Exporting Shadow Info

Regarding exporting dates, here's a simple suggestion. If a date 
exists, put the label followed by a colon and the date. Put the 
entire item in brackets. Example: "Go to store" with target date of 
6/3/01 would export as "Go to store [Target: 06/03/01]"
It might be nice to have export of dates be an option so those who 
don't want it won't get the dates.

Thanks for your flexiblity.

Michael Rudnick

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 egroups@R... wrote:
> 
> > Next week we are meeting and will determine target dates for the 
> > tasks. I can see how Shadow can handle this easily and I can 
filter 
> > them in Shadow. But what I also need is a way to tell everyone 
the 
> > tasks *with Target Dates*. Unfortuntately none of the exports 
> > includes dates (unless I'm missing something, please tell me).
> 
> 	I can easily add this.. I just want someone to tell me exact
> layout I should use that makes it easiest for everyone :)
> 
> > So here's my request: Is there a *simple* way to get a Shadow 
file 
> > with Target dates into Word (or any other readable format)?
> 
> 	Not yet; the dates aren't included :(
> 
> 	If a few of you agree on formatyting, I'll put it in soon.
> 
> 		jeff

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 8:42am
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

> 	In View mode, you could divide the screen into 4 horizontal
> bars, equally sized. Maybe 6.
> 
> 	If you divide it into 4 regions:
> 
> 	Tap top of screen, scroll up two screens. (maybe 3?)
> 	Tap above middle of screen, scroll up one page.
> 	Tap below middle, scroll down one page.
> 	Tap near bottom, scroll down two screens (maybe 3?)
> 
> 	If you divide it into 6 regions, you could perhaps have the
> middlemost two scroll up and down 5 lines, or maybe one screen,
> and have the next outter pair go 2 screens, and the outermost
> pair do 5 screens?

Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but isn't that what we have 
scrollbars for?

I'm familiar with the concept of scrolling by tapping in a specific 
screen region (some DOC readers use the same technique) but it does 
steepen the learning curve for Shadow's UI.

If the same were at all possible using scrollbars, I'd definitely 
prefer that *a lot*. I'm a firm believer in sticking to standard UI 
design guidelines whenever possible.

Roy.

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 10:38am
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

At 08:42 02/06/2001 +0000, Roy wrote:

> >       [Jeff] - In View mode, you could divide the screen into 4 horizontal
> > bars, equally sized. Maybe 6.
> >
> >       If you divide it into 4 regions:
> >
> >       Tap top of screen, scroll up two screens. (maybe 3?)
> >       Tap above middle of screen, scroll up one page.
> >       Tap below middle, scroll down one page.
> >       Tap near bottom, scroll down two screens (maybe 3?)
> >
> >       If you divide it into 6 regions, (...)



>[Roy] - Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but isn't that what we have
>scrollbars for?
>
>I'm familiar with the concept of scrolling by tapping in a specific
>screen region (some DOC readers use the same technique) but it does
>steepen the learning curve for Shadow's UI.

You're right, Roy : and Jeff lets you use the standard UI, with scroll bar 
if you prefer to. And from a developper point of view, your logic is strong.

But I hope you don't intend - for users that prefers to get their most used 
commands out of a single gesture - to forbid the use of extra UI features 
the author of their mostly used app if they feel they could be more 
comfortable and pleased with. They use it enough to be on top of that app 
learning curve already.

Do you refuse extra trigger gestures you can get to launch apps, hacks or 
DAs ? sliding pluses of FitalyStamp, or Swipe ? Undocumented features of 
LapTopHack ?

I use and find most efficient the tap-on-screen features of Plucker. They 
certailnly are my preferd activating mode. I dismiss the scroll bar and 
enjoy fullscreen display, and I sure would prefer to have the same with a 
Shadow full screen view mode.

-----------
My wish
-----------

Jeff, count me among those who do ask for tap on screen features ;-)

Moreover, here would be my dream :

* To have a full screen view mode (not a single button).

* Divide the hight in four regions, as Jeff proposed,
and
* divide width in Left and right : that would give 8 easy to spot areas.

- For instance, right areas could be devoted to scroll: page, quarter of a 
page, back or forth.

- Left areas could be devoted to list display, for instance:
Previously displayed list, flatten toggle, expand all toggle, activate 
current filter toggle, return to edit view ...

That, as in Plucker could be options set by the user (why not, as in 
Plucker,  assign prefered Shadow shorcuts to hard buttons too ?). As a 
user, when you assign options yourself, it's to fit to your best use, and 
you learn it very quickly. And you're rewarded by a sound benefit in 
efficiency and pleasure.

Of course, everything must first be available thru standard UI. But it 
already is.
Standards are a must. But they must not be set to forbid innovation ;-)


Jacques

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 0:51pm
Subject: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

> You're right, Roy : and Jeff lets you use the standard UI, with
> scroll bar if you prefer to.

In the current version, Shadow has scroll *arrows*, not a 
*scrollbar*. Arrows only let you scroll by one line at a time which 
is cumbersome in long lists. And this is exactly why Jeff's question 
about the screen regions came to pass in the first place: allowing to 
scroll by larger portions of the list.

> And from a developper point of view, your logic is strong.

My statement was strictly from a user's perspective. For a developer, 
scrollbars are much more difficult to implement than scroll arrows.

> But I hope you don't intend - for users that prefers to get
> their most used commands out of a single gesture - to forbid
> the use of extra UI features the author of their mostly used
> app if they feel they could be more comfortable and pleased
> with. They use it enough to be on top of that app learning
> curve already.

My opinion is that if there are adequate standard options available, 
a developer shouldn't use proprietary solutions instead. This is 
especially true for "invisible" features like the scroll-by-screen-
region feature that's being suggested here. A new user will not 
recognize this functionality and is therefore likely not to benefit 
from it. A scrollbar however is instantly recognizable and its use 
doesn't need to be documented, whereas the invisible screen regions 
will need a section of the user manual devoted to them.

> Do you refuse extra trigger gestures you can get to launch apps,
> hacks or DAs ? sliding pluses of FitalyStamp, or Swipe ?

Certainly not. I am a heavy user of hacks such as Pop!, MagicText, 
TextPlus, McPhling and LapTopHack. But these gestures and swipes 
you're referring to would be impossible to implement using standard 
UI components. And the biggest reason for this is that hacks operate 
across applications. Shadow's scrolling mechanism is a self-contained 
feature that doesn't have to take the UI, inner workings and other 
peculiarities of other applications into account.

> Undocumented features of LapTopHack ?

As far as I know, LapTopHack does not have any undocumented features.

> I use and find most efficient the tap-on-screen features of
> Plucker. They certailnly are my preferd activating mode. I
> dismiss the scroll bar and enjoy fullscreen display, and I
> sure would prefer to have the same with a Shadow full screen
> view mode.

I would agree if all Palm applications worked like this and if this 
were the Palm OS scrolling paradigm. But I certainly don't prefer to 
have to learn a different way to scroll in each and every application.

Once again, my statements are for situations where standard Palm UI 
components would do the trick equally well.

> Jeff, count me among those who do ask for tap on screen features ;-)
> 
> Moreover, here would be my dream :
> 
> * To have a full screen view mode (not a single button).
> 
> * Divide the hight in four regions, as Jeff proposed,
>   and
> * divide width in Left and right : that would give 8 easy to
>   spot areas.
> 
> - For instance, right areas could be devoted to scroll: page,
>   quarter of a page, back or forth.
> 
> - Left areas could be devoted to list display, for instance:
>   Previously displayed list, flatten toggle, expand all toggle,
>   activate current filter toggle, return to edit view ...
> 
> That, as in Plucker could be options set by the user (why not,
> as in Plucker, assign prefered Shadow shorcuts to hard buttons
> too ?). As a user, when you assign options yourself, it's to fit
> to your best use, and you learn it very quickly. And you're
> rewarded by a sound benefit in efficiency and pleasure.

If we're going this way, before long every application will employ 
its own way of scrolling. For me that doesn't have a benefit in 
efficiency nor in pleasure.

Remember that much of the user-friendliness of Windows applications 
for example lies in the fact that a large portion of their interfaces 
is equal to that of others. If a user sees a button, he knows that he 
can click on it. If he sees a scrollbar, he knows that he can scroll 
the screen contents with that. There is no explanation/documentation 
necessary: once you've mastered one application, you feel right at 
home in the next.

> Of course, everything must first be available thru standard UI.
> But it already is.

Except for the scrollbar. :)

> Standards are a must. But they must not be set to forbid
> innovation ;-)

I don't have a problem with this implementation, as long as it's 
optional, doesn't result in a huge amount of extra code and there is 
a standard alternative.

Roy.

From: rwelton@s...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 2:08pm
Subject: Printing with HTML

Probably a very simple question and I am overlooking something 
obvious, however ...

To print by exporting, I follow the manual instructions (the very 
last instructions in 1.5.0 manual).  Everything is cool until point 
#7 and then I completely draw a blank.  After I sync, I cannot find 
any *.htm file and am not really sure about the #7 instructions 
to "Export to drag and drop ...".

I am running 1.5.6 on an m505.

I will also add my comment to everyone else ... Great program; it has 
become a regular part of my daily routine to plan and follow projects.

Ranny

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 3:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

At 12:51 02/06/2001 +0000, Roy :

>In the current version, Shadow has scroll *arrows*, not a
>*scrollbar*.

Right (I should have checked before writing).
But, with indents, priorities, progress and links icons Jeff made that 
choice for real estate sake : lines are short (until landscape Handera 
becomes the standard ?).

>  Arrows only let you scroll by one line at a time which
>is cumbersome in long lists.
>And this is exactly why Jeff's question
>about the screen regions came to pass in the first place: allowing to
>scroll by larger portions of the list.

I'll clone what you said earlier : "Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but 
isn't that what we have page up / down buttons for ? "

>My opinion is that if there are adequate standard options available,
>a developer shouldn't use proprietary solutions instead.

I agree on the "are", I dislike the "shouldn't" ;-)

>This is
>especially true for "invisible" features like the scroll-by-screen-
>region feature that's being suggested here. A new user will not
>recognize this functionality and is therefore likely not to benefit
>from it.

Users that never put their eyes on a manual, or don't explore menus and 
preference options when they toy with their new app, yes. They're numerous, 
but they are the same that keep with built-in apps. When you come to little 
advertised Shadow, there are chances you are already a "medium power user", 
. . . at least !

>A scrollbar however is instantly recognizable and its use
>doesn't need to be documented, whereas the invisible screen regions
>will need a section of the user manual devoted to them.

Of course.
Conversely, when you've, once, read the section of the user manual, you may 
get full screen with only your content on which to focus. You have no 
buttons or popups or bars on your way that clutter your sight and, 
sometimes, mind (but I feel that this has far more value for me than for 
you !). For me micro ergonomy on a 160x160 screen weighs more than standard 
respect. So, respect the standards, but give extra options.

> > Undocumented features of LapTopHack ?
>As far as I know, LapTopHack does not have any undocumented features.

The seven hints Paul Nevaļ tells in the so called "undocumented features" 
section of LTH manual.

> > I use and find most efficient the tap-on-screen features of
> > Plucker. They certailnly are my prefered activating mode. I
> > dismiss the scroll bar and enjoy fullscreen display, and I
> > sure would prefer to have the same with a Shadow full screen
> > view mode.
>
>I would agree if all Palm applications worked like this and if this
>were the Palm OS scrolling paradigm.

Well it's not so far from becoming an extension of the original standard : 
Plucker, iSilo. Even WordSmith has a similar approach in view mode, and 
MobiPocket. Even if each of these apps do it its way, at least their users 
and full-screen goers got familiar with the region tapping paradigm, as an 
optional alternative.

>But I certainly don't prefer to
>have to learn a different way to scroll in each and every application.

I'd prefer not, either.
But see it an other way : if you toy daily with hundreds of new apps, that 
would be hard to live with.

But, for you as for me, our pda is primarily a tool : and we settle and 
stick on three or four apps, we use intensively. And we find and learn 
quickly the specific tricks of each that boost our own use.

>Once again, my statements are for situations where standard Palm UI
>components would do the trick equally well.

I understood. My difference is I don't sense the "equally well" as you do.

> > That, as in Plucker could be options set by the user (why not,
> > as in Plucker, assign prefered Shadow shorcuts to hard buttons
> > too ?). As a user, when you assign options yourself, it's to fit
> > to your best use, and you learn it very quickly. And you're
> > rewarded by a sound benefit in efficiency and pleasure.
>
>If we're going this way, before long every application will employ
>its own way of scrolling. For me that doesn't have a benefit in
>efficiency nor in pleasure.

Have you spent as many hours as I did  reading iSilo in crowded commutings 
: at least in that instance, I tell you region "nail" tapping is of grat 
benefit ;-))

>Remember that much of the user-friendliness of Windows applications
>for example lies in the fact that a large portion of their interfaces
>is equal to that of others. If a user sees a button, he knows that he
>can click on it. If he sees a scrollbar, he knows that he can scroll
>the screen contents with that. There is no explanation/documentation
>necessary: once you've mastered one application, you feel right at
>home in the next.

Here again I fully agree.
The majority of three-fingered people have to see buttons, bars where to 
click for what.

But I'm the guy who already prefers in Windows to use his favorite apps 
full screen, or as less cluttered as possible and free the windows from 
those overhelming several range of buttons ! Instead, I make heavy use of 
keyboard shortcuts. Yes, for instance, those of Word are not those of 
Acrobat nor Textpad. Yes at first, I had to go and read the doc when I 
wanted to get rid of the mouse. But yes, I do feel I benefit from that 
extra learning step !

> > Standards are a must. But they must not be set to forbid
> > innovation ;-)
>
>I don't have a problem with this implementation, as long as it's
>optional,

Oh, thanks ! So, we agree ...

>doesn't result in a huge amount of extra code and there is
>a standard alternative.
>
>Roy.

Thanks for the arguing, Roy

Baseline :
-------------
So I'm still wishing from Jeff, count me among those who do ask for tap on 
screen features :

2 x 4 regions ;-)


Jacques


.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 3:08pm
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 jacques@t... wrote:

> >         Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?
> 
> I'd use it pretty much if toggling view-mode was one tap only (that is a 
> button on the main screen)

	But would you use it? Do you *want* it?

	ie:

	tap into view mode (one tap, onscreen)
	tap low (scroll down 2 pages)
	tap low (scroll down 2 pages)
	tap mid high (scroll up one page)
	tap off view mode

	That sort of thing..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: opitz@s...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 3:33pm
Subject: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

I thought the original scrolling idea was good, but I have to say NO 
NO NO to taking half the screen for other functions. It would destroy 
the usefulness of this feature (to me, anyways).

I don't remember lists of obscure non-related commands, like command 
functions on the Palm (what is Command-R in this app, that one, etc? 
Aarrgh!), but I can use the menus, so that's okay. Same with hacks. 
Even if you choose the stroke, it still seems random weeks later--what 
sliding stroke makes sense to pop up a list of memos? Right from Menu 
or left from Find? I'm replacing hacks with DA's whenever I can 
because a single sliding stroke gets me a LIST of DA's, eliminating 
five other (possibly confusing) strokes.

What's this got to do with Shadow? Jeff's original suggestion was 
intuitive. Not intuitive in the sense that you'll know it's there 
without being told, but in remembering the action. Tap a LITTLE ways 
UP the screen from the center, Shadow moves a LITTLE ways UP your 
outline. Tap a LOT UP the screen (near the top), Shadow moves UP your 
outline a LOT. Makes so much sense that you almost don't have to 
remember anything.

Now make half the screen pop up commands, and a month from now it will 
be which side controls the scrolling? Neither one makes more or less 
sense. If I tap on the wrong side, I'll do God-knows-what to my 
outline. Flatten it? Delete half of it? Was that the top button or the 
3rd one down? 

I think Jacques' idea could work if there were an option to turn it 
off and make the entire screen function as Jeff originally suggested. 
Or if instead of half the screen, the alternative function took up a 
narrower column. In many DOC editors, if you tap on the DOC's name, it 
gets opened, but if you tap in the column to the left, a menu of 
actions opens.

Bob



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., jacques@t... wrote:
[snip]
> 
> -----------
> My wish
> -----------
> 
> Jeff, count me among those who do ask for tap on screen features ;-)
> 
> Moreover, here would be my dream :
> 
> * To have a full screen view mode (not a single button).
> 
> * Divide the hight in four regions, as Jeff proposed,
> and
> * divide width in Left and right : that would give 8 easy to spot 
areas.
> 
> - For instance, right areas could be devoted to scroll: page, 
quarter of a 
> page, back or forth.
> 
> - Left areas could be devoted to list display, for instance:
> Previously displayed list, flatten toggle, expand all toggle, 
activate 
> current filter toggle, return to edit view ...
> 
> That, as in Plucker could be options set by the user (why not, as in 
> Plucker,  assign prefered Shadow shorcuts to hard buttons too ?). As 
a 
> user, when you assign options yourself, it's to fit to your best 
use, and 
> you learn it very quickly. And you're rewarded by a sound benefit in 
> efficiency and pleasure.
> 
> Of course, everything must first be available thru standard UI. But 
it 
> already is.
> Standards are a must. But they must not be set to forbid innovation 
;-)
> 
> 
> Jacques

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 3:41pm
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but isn't that what we have 
> scrollbars for?

	Some like scrollbars, others hate them. They take up screenspace,
for one, so I've always hesitated to build them in. Also, they'll not be
real time scrollbars.. tap, drag to point you like, lert go, screen
draws..

> If the same were at all possible using scrollbars, I'd definitely 
> prefer that *a lot*. I'm a firm believer in sticking to standard UI 
> design guidelines whenever possible.

	I may need to build both :P *shrug*

	I'm pretty sure I'll build a scrollbar list pref soon though,
since it woudl be very easy for people, and I bet a lot of people would
like it.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 3:57pm
Subject: Re: Printing with HTML

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 rwelton@s... wrote:

> Probably a very simple question and I am overlooking something 
> obvious, however ...
> 
> To print by exporting, I follow the manual instructions (the very 
> last instructions in 1.5.0 manual).  Everything is cool until point 
> #7 and then I completely draw a blank.  After I sync, I cannot find 
> any *.htm file and am not really sure about the #7 instructions 
> to "Export to drag and drop ...".
> 
> I am running 1.5.6 on an m505.
> 
> I will also add my comment to everyone else ... Great program; it has 
> become a regular part of my daily routine to plan and follow projects.

	Glad you like it.

	OKay, so you export on the palm as HTML to the memopad; now the
html content is stored as a memo (or memos) on the palm. You push Hotsync,
and the memos are transferred to your desktop. What you do there depends
on your software and OS and I'm by no means an expert.

	Generically, I imagine you find the memos in your desktop app
(Palm Desktop or Outlook, likely), and somehow export those to your
desktop as textfiles, calling them whatever.htm. ie: The memos are
formated as html, but are still memos. You need to get the memos out of
your desktop app and copy them to textfiles on your desktop.. then they
become standalone html files.

	There could be many ways of doing this.. for instance, on your
desktop app, you might be able to pull up the memo. Then select all, hit
Copy, open Windows Notepad, hit Paste, then Save As, and enter
whatever.htm -- voila, whatever.htm is now your html file.

	What OS and desktop environment are you using? Others can probably
help more, since I don't use Windows or a Mac for this sort of thing
myself ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 3:58pm
Subject: Re: How to switch back to SP after setting a Link

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 mtamsm@y... wrote:

> I'm new to ShadowPlan.  When I set a link to an Addressbook item how 
> do I get back to ShadowPlan quickly?

	Once you are inside the other application, that program is in
control.. so getting back to Shadow means using the Launcher as normal, or
using a Hack to return. (Try PhlegmHack, it seems popular for this). I may
build into Shadow a optional hack soon myself, but I've avoided due to the
plethora of publicly available Hacks already for this sort of thing..

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 jacques@t... wrote:

> >In the current version, Shadow has scroll *arrows*, not a
> >*scrollbar*.
> 
> Right (I should have checked before writing).
> But, with indents, priorities, progress and links icons Jeff made that 
> choice for real estate sake : lines are short (until landscape Handera 
> becomes the standard ?).

	There is a question about Highrez -- will Handera's style go
standard, or Sony's? I think right now, the Sony API is more public, and
has been given back to Palm (I think?), so it may become standard. It
seems very good, too, and works very well with hardware acceleration and
such due to the 320x320 being a straight multiple of 160x160. The Clie is
nifty inside. The Hander I've not lookas much into, but its got a whole
different API than Sony.. 

	So only one will win out.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Ginger Carter  <gardenbug1971@y...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:38pm
Subject: RE: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

In the current version, Shadow has scroll *arrows*, not a
*scrollbar*. Arrows only let you scroll by one line at a time which
is cumbersome in long lists. And this is exactly why Jeff's question
about the screen regions came to pass in the first place: allowing to
scroll by larger portions of the list.


I agree with Roy, I would LOVE to see a scrollbar instead of the scroll
arrows.
Ginger in Lynnwood, Wa
Jubilation Scrapbooking


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: loraneb@u...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:47pm
Subject: Re: How to switch back to SP after setting a Link

Hello.  I'm a relatively new SP user as well.  I use McFling hack to 
switch between programs.  If you don't know about hacks, go to 
palmgear.com and get x-master and then get mcfling and try it out.  It 
will open up a whole new world of Fun Things I Can Do on My Palm!

Lorane in Walnut, CA


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., mtamsm@y... wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm new to ShadowPlan.  When I set a link to an Addressbook item how 
> do I get back to ShadowPlan quickly?
> 
> Thanks, Tam

From: loraneb@u...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:50pm
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

Jeff - I'm a new user and I LOVE your ShadowPlan.  I think the ability 
to scroll by PAGE as well as by line would be a very useful 
enhancement for your software and if it's easy to do, then do it!

Lorane in Walnut, CA

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> 	Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?
> 
> 	Someone made this suggestion. Sounds good, for those with long
> lists. Its been suggested before, but this sounds very easy to 
implement,
> and useful.
>

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 4:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 loraneb@u... wrote:

> Jeff - I'm a new user and I LOVE your ShadowPlan.  I think the ability 
> to scroll by PAGE as well as by line would be a very useful 
> enhancement for your software and if it's easy to do, then do it!

	Scrolling by page is already present -- just push the hardware
up/down buttons on your unit ;)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: The Weltons  <rwelton@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Printing with HTML

Jeff,

Thanks for your hints.  I am using the standard Palm Desktop Software 4.0.1
and Windows 98.  For my Palm information, I use the PC very little,
therefore have not experimented with Outlook or any other desktop programs.

Using your hint, I found the sync'ed Shadow HTML files in the memo pad area
of Palm Desktop.  They must be buried in the memopad.dat file, because still
cannot find the file anywhere on my system.  Also using the standard Palm
Desktop, I was not able to export to an *.htm.  There are limited ways to
export from Palm Desktop.  I was, however, able to export from Palm/Shadow
in tab delimited and then export from Palm Desktop in a tab delimited format
and then pull up on Word.  So, bottom line, was able to get something to the
printer!

Jeff - Thanks for your tips.

Anyone else have any ideas how to get the same information in an HTML
format?

Thanks,

Ranny


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mitchell" <support@s...>
To: <shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Printing with HTML


> On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 rwelton@s... wrote:
>
> > Probably a very simple question and I am overlooking something
> > obvious, however ...
> >
> > To print by exporting, I follow the manual instructions (the very
> > last instructions in 1.5.0 manual).  Everything is cool until point
> > #7 and then I completely draw a blank.  After I sync, I cannot find
> > any *.htm file and am not really sure about the #7 instructions
> > to "Export to drag and drop ...".
> >
> > I am running 1.5.6 on an m505.
> >
> > I will also add my comment to everyone else ... Great program; it has
> > become a regular part of my daily routine to plan and follow projects.
>
> Glad you like it.
>
> OKay, so you export on the palm as HTML to the memopad; now the
> html content is stored as a memo (or memos) on the palm. You push Hotsync,
> and the memos are transferred to your desktop. What you do there depends
> on your software and OS and I'm by no means an expert.
>
> Generically, I imagine you find the memos in your desktop app
> (Palm Desktop or Outlook, likely), and somehow export those to your
> desktop as textfiles, calling them whatever.htm. ie: The memos are
> formated as html, but are still memos. You need to get the memos out of
> your desktop app and copy them to textfiles on your desktop.. then they
> become standalone html files.
>
> There could be many ways of doing this.. for instance, on your
> desktop app, you might be able to pull up the memo. Then select all, hit
> Copy, open Windows Notepad, hit Paste, then Save As, and enter
> whatever.htm -- voila, whatever.htm is now your html file.
>
> What OS and desktop environment are you using? Others can probably
> help more, since I don't use Windows or a Mac for this sort of thing
> myself ;)
>
> jeff

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 5:46pm
Subject: Re: Printing with HTML

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, The Weltons wrote:

> Using your hint, I found the sync'ed Shadow HTML files in the memo pad area
> of Palm Desktop.  They must be buried in the memopad.dat file, because still
> cannot find the file anywhere on my system.  Also using the standard Palm
> Desktop, I was not able to export to an *.htm.  There are limited ways to
> export from Palm Desktop.  I was, however, able to export from Palm/Shadow
> in tab delimited and then export from Palm Desktop in a tab delimited format
> and then pull up on Word.  So, bottom line, was able to get something to the
> printer!

	Actually, you would export to .htm in the exact same fashion. An
.htm file is the same as a text file, except the filename ends .htm, and
the *content* is formatted as html. Shadow formats as html on the palm,
and you export as text on the PC..

> Jeff - Thanks for your tips.

	No problem :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 6:44pm
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

Checking in from Lurk status to vote on this dilemma:

- I like the idea of scroll bars.

- I like the idea of the ease from being able to tap; I would choose only a 
couple of sections to tap.

- I like the choices of One line Up/Down and/or One Page Up/Down or:
      --- even better, I like the way SmartDoc handles it with an 
icon/button to toggle scrolling off and on-- a smaller icon would be better 
(may using "half an "X"/an "X")

- I hate the idea of giving up the screen real estate. I want to keep it 
as-clean-as-possible :-P

- I would rather be able to single-tap on tasks to edit them... or better 
yet, be able to edit them in place without having to go into another window 
to do so.

- Conclusion: Whatever you end up doing, please use the icon/button idea or 
make scrolling optional. I love having as many options as possible so that 
I can make this app my own. I'm the least likely candidate for DateBk4 that 
you'd ever find, but I have been able to finesse it to my liking just 
because almost everything is optional at the touch of a button or a few 
menu prefs.

Watching with interest and holding my breath until it all plays out,

oooieoo  :D

-------------------------
At 08:08 AM 06/02/2001, you wrote:
>On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 jacques@t... wrote:
>
> > >         Anyone want this? Or is it totally useless?
> >
> > I'd use it pretty much if toggling view-mode was one tap only (that is a
> > button on the main screen)
>
>         But would you use it? Do you *want* it?
>
>         ie:
>
>         tap into view mode (one tap, onscreen)
>         tap low (scroll down 2 pages)
>         tap low (scroll down 2 pages)
>         tap mid high (scroll up one page)
>         tap off view mode
>
>         That sort of thing..
>
>                 jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

At 05:51 AM 06/02/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
 >>In the current version, Shadow has scroll *arrows*, not a *scrollbar*. 
Arrows only let you scroll by one line at a time which is cumbersome in 
long lists.<<

This makes me want to ask if it's possible to have an option to use the 
scroll *arrows* either one line *or* one page at a time? Yup, I know I have 
the Up/Down button, but...... well, you know how that goes. I'druther use 
the arrow.

oooieoo

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 129

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 Matthew.Blair@i... wrote:
 > 1) In-place editing of item type. I am currently trying to retrofit
 > some of my existing lists to use this feature, and it is kind of a
 > pain to hit details on all of the items I wish to change. Plus, I
 > think this would be useful during new list creations.

Then Jeff Mitchell responded with:
 >>When creating new items and lists, if you activate the "assume
view of sibling", you'll probably be in pretty good shape. So if you only
need faster changing of view for old lists, then eventually it won't be a
problem...<<

If Matthews's idea of in-place editing is the same as my idea of in-place 
editing, then no... it's not the same. I often have to make changes to an 
item. This means a double-tap to get to another window, doing the editing, 
then tapping back out of said window.

My vote: In-place editing.  :-)

oooieo  <--- who is *assuming* that "assume view of sibling" is the same 
thing as "New items take a sibling's view" in the LIST MENU > PREFERENCES > 
OPTIONS window

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 129

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 oooieoo@k... wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 Matthew.Blair@i... wrote:
>  > 1) In-place editing of item type. I am currently trying to retrofit
>  > some of my existing lists to use this feature, and it is kind of a
>  > pain to hit details on all of the items I wish to change. Plus, I
>  > think this would be useful during new list creations.
> 
> Then Jeff Mitchell responded with:
>  >>When creating new items and lists, if you activate the "assume
> view of sibling", you'll probably be in pretty good shape. So if you only
> need faster changing of view for old lists, then eventually it won't be a
> problem...<<
> 
> If Matthews's idea of in-place editing is the same as my idea of in-place 
> editing, then no... it's not the same. I often have to make changes to an 
> item. This means a double-tap to get to another window, doing the editing, 
> then tapping back out of said window.

	He wasn't talking about in-place editting at all. We were talking
about setting different view overrides for a lot of items.

> My vote: In-place editing.  :-)

	As I've said many times, it may happen, and it will not be
soon. Half folks want in-place editting since they edit a lot, and half
want it off the side as it is now, since they view a lot. Since changing
to in-place editting irritates half the users, and because its a HUGE
amount of work fundamentally different to the design since day one, it'll
wait until other more important things for *everyone* are done.. like the
desktop app, for instance.  Also, doing it means a lot of consideration --
what does drag do? Drag and drop like now, or does it hilight text like in
a wordpro? The intentions for in-place editting fanatics must be for a lot
of editting, so what must change to make that useful?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 130

Matthew Blain wrote:
 >>I think I'm actually asking more for a default item type by level, but 
not locked. I.e., many of my lists would probably have a note at the top 
level, a note at the 2nd level, and a checklist at the 3rd level. Or 
something like that. But I would still like the ability to individually 
change items at any level to a different item type. What I'm really saying 
is that I don't want it locked.<<

Oops. Guess I misinterpreted his request. Sorry about that!

oooieoo  <---- going back into lurking mode until I've done more reading

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 130

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 oooieoo@k... wrote:

> oooieoo  <---- going back into lurking mode until I've done more reading

	heh. You don't have to lurk. We like comments -- gotta keep me
busy right? :P

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: oooieoo@k...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 130

Shhhh! I'm doing my catch-up reading, Dude! <g>


---------------

At 01:10 PM 06/02/2001, you wrote:
>On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 oooieoo@k... wrote:
>
>> oooieoo  <---- going back into lurking mode until I've done more reading
>
>        heh. You don't have to lurk. We like comments -- gotta keep me
>busy right? :P
>
>                jeff
>
>--
>"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
>circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
>sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
>-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jacques@t...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: View mode? ... I want it: my wish

At 15:33 02/06/2001 +0000, Bob wrote:

>I thought the original scrolling idea was good, but I have to say NO
>NO NO to taking half the screen for other functions. It would destroy
>the usefulness of this feature (to me, anyways).

So, don't destroy the usefulness, ans I hope Jeff will keep, at least, his 
original scrolling idea ;-)

As for the left side, it could be optional, and remain unnoticed for those 
who don't want it. So, that could be convenient for everybody :

** By default, left and right would be assigned at start <the same> options 
: as you say "Tap a LITTLE ways UP the screen from the center, Shadow moves 
a LITTLE ways UP your outline. Tap a LOT UP the screen (near the top), 
Shadow moves UP your outline a LOT. Makes so much sense that you almost 
don't have to remember anything." It would only be users who want it (as I 
do), that would assign more options to - say - left side.

If you fear a loss of usefulness, don't use it and keep default assignment 
(left = right) so to stay with the "intuitive" part.

If you happen, when scanning back and forth a project list in view mode, to 
tap repeatedly the same [command-letters], you might find a help to assign 
those commands to other "hidden shortcut buttons", in my example the four 
left side regions.

As I experienced with Plucker, such a system is easy to use and saves you 
gestures. In Plucker, a lot of commands can be assigned to regions and to 
hard buttons. As I use that app every day, I got quickly acquainted to the 
settings I entered in Plucker prefs (I don't change them each months !). 
And everyday I surf without pain among my pluckerised docs without stylus, 
with twice less taps. It becomes very quickly a habit, for an app you use 
everyday. And as I spend more time with Shadow that with Plucker, I should 
find it awesome too ... ;-)

1.
So, Jeff, please give us the intuitive view mode you proposed, and tell the 
users in the manual.

2.
And, if it is only marginal coding, give without touting, an opportunity to 
assign some more triggers for users like me, as "advanced options".

To summarize my "specs", I would use a view mode:

* As little cluttered as possible (full screen would be the best)
* One tap to page through (4 regions as you told)
* Optional (shadow prefs): One tap for some often used display commands : 
back to edit mode, expand toggle, current filter toggle, flat toggle would 
be the ones I'd like to have as one tap shortcuts.

Thanks for listening,
Cheers,


Jacques

.

From: L Newman  <lnewman@n...>
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 0:51am
Subject: Re: View mode? Easy... want it?

> - I hate the idea of giving up the screen real estate. I want to keep it
> as-clean-as-possible :-P

I agree

> - I would rather be able to single-tap on tasks to edit them... or better
> yet, be able to edit them in place without having to go into another
window
> to do so.
 ditto

Len

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:07pm
Subject: Less scrolling...please

All:

Is there a view which allows my text to extend all the way to the 
right edge of the Palm screen?  I understand that there are possible 
widgets to display, but could they follow the item text?  Just 
thinking out loud of a way more text could be squeezed into a item 
while minimizing scrolling.  Any thoughts?

Norman

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

Jeff:

This is how I would envision this feature.  The user would click on a 
item, then click on the link button.  Next, the user will click 'Add' 
from the 'Link Manager' and then the 'Memo' button in this dialog.  
Up to this point, this is how Shadow works today.

Now, when the 'Memo' button is selected, a new button is shown 
somewhere in the dialog--'Create Memo'.  If the user selects this 
button, a simple dialog requiring the user to type a title for 
his/her memo.  Click 'Ok'.  Now Shadow, create a memo item in the 
Memo database with the title given in the dialog and assigns a link 
to that memo database record. 

I am not a Palm developer, but if this is a record link, why would we 
have to worry about changes from the desktop?  Shadow will just 
display record# xxxx.

Norman



--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:
> 
> > I may have not been clear in my request.  I would not want Shadow 
to 
> > launch the MemoPad.  I would just like a simple link (similar to 
how 
> > ToDos currently work) created to the memo with the Shadow entry 
as 
> > its title.  Hopefully, this is clear.
> 
> 	What shoudl be included in the memo, and what shoudl happen 
when
> you inevitably change the data in the memo from your desktop? (ie: 
Shoudl
> Shadow export the memo title, the attached note, priority, dates,
> etc. Then if you change them, re-import them all?) Due to the free-
form
> nature of the memopad, it could get very messy indeed..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:45pm
Subject: Scrolling problem with PPK

Jeff:

I encountered a problem while scrolling a outline using a Portable 
Palm Keyboard (w/ latest drivers--I believe 1.2).  My list is several 
screens.  If I use the arrow keys to scroll, I cannot see the last 
item completely.  Also, there are times when it just wraps back to 
the beginning of the list.  This can be annoying if you're examining 
the last few items in the outline.  The workaround is to use two 
fingers and hit 'FN-Scroll', then you can see the end of the list.  
Have you seen this before?

Norman

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Less scrolling...please

On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> Is there a view which allows my text to extend all the way to the 
> right edge of the Palm screen?  I understand that there are possible 
> widgets to display, but could they follow the item text?  Just 
> thinking out loud of a way more text could be squeezed into a item 
> while minimizing scrolling.  Any thoughts?

	Have you tried custom views? If not, consider it -- change your
list type to "Custom" in the List Prefs screen. Don't worry, you can
change it back anytime you like. Once it becomes Custom, you can hit the
Customize button to define what that Custom view is. Turn off the stuff
you dont' want, turn on what you do want, and voila.

	Hope that helps,

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> button, a simple dialog requiring the user to type a title for 
> his/her memo.  Click 'Ok'.  Now Shadow, create a memo item in the 
> Memo database with the title given in the dialog and assigns a link 
> to that memo database record. 
> 
> I am not a Palm developer, but if this is a record link, why would we 
> have to worry about changes from the desktop?  Shadow will just 
> display record# xxxx.

	If its a pure single-record export, sure, no problem. Buuut I know
that if you create a memo from a shadow item, the next thing you'll want
is for yourself to be able to edit that memo from somewher (be it desktop,
Wordsmith, or the built in memo tool). And you'll want those changes
imported back into Shadow. Thats hard.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_