From: glacefield@v...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	If its *really* a good idea, then I'll do it; I've found
> that very few people use the tap-and-hold detail mini view, and I'm
> not sure if thats because its hard to find, or if its because its
> not useful.

I'll admit, I myself use this feature only occasionally.  But that's 
because I usually don't have a great need to view the details, since 
I usually customize my view to see most of the details on the main 
screen.  Conversely, nearly *everyone* (except for the Graffiti 
users :-) uses "New" to create new items.  I think tap-and-hold here 
would be used much more often.

> It might be easier to do it for buttons, since you have to do it
> and keep the pen in the button (whereas on my tree view widget,
> you can tap and hold and I have to worry about sliding aroudn to
> drag and drop, and other issues so is more complex).

Makes a lot of sense.

> 	ie: You hit new, tap and hold for 1s (or 2s; can't do 1.5s
> easily) and then a popmenu shows up and you lift the pen, and tap
> a view type. Or just hit new and tap top right and pick the view
> type. The latter current method is faster (no waiting), though is
> an extra tap...

I like 1 sec rather than 2. The longer count makes sense for the tree 
view because of the varying operations that can take place, like you 
mention.  But when "New" is tapped, the user's intentions are pretty 
clear, and holding for longer than 1 second here would seem an 
eternity. I don't think you would run into problems with users 
accidentally holding for 1 second when they want the default type; at 
least *my* taps aren't *that* persistent. :-)

I also prefer hold vs. traversing the pen the diagonal distance of 
the screen to bullseye the "V" target; localizing the type selection 
to the creation tap seems more intuitive to me.  But other users may 
think differently.

Just knowing that you're considering it is encouraging. :-)

Greg

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

On Wed, 30 May 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> However, my biggest wish, by far, in the user interface area for 
> Shadow is in-line editing like Bonsai.  I know that would require 
> major rework to the current interface so I'm not sure it makes sense 
> building out the existing ui with new things you might need to throw 
> away later - if this is something you're still considering for the 
> future.

	This is one of those 50/50 things -- half peopel like it, half
hate it. Reason -- many people read more data than they enter. Define a
project, and you'll be living with it for months, but generally not
chanfging the text. Others are writing structured notes like essays, and
want to edit onscreen right away. Two different groups, with valid uses,
totally opposite ;)

	So I may add a pref to do it one way or the other. Its a lot of
work, and a lot of rework. ie: Consider -- drag and drop. Right now, you
drag to move an item, and drop it off. If in inline-edit interfacem, then
does dragging hilight text instead of moving an item?

	there is a huge amount of changes.

	This will wait awhile, until a lot of other things are done, that
everyone wants..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Wed, 30 May 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> Along those lines, I would also like to see the check box on the 
> details screen - or a preference option that automatically checks off 
> the check box if I update the progress bar to 100%. Seems like I 
> should be able to update everything about an item from the details 
> screen.

	Theres just so little space left .. where to put a checkbox there?

	Re: progresss bar .. I've avoided it so far. Consider, if your'e
progress is 70% now, and you check the item, the item is displayed as
100%, and counted as 100%. What if you uncheck it? It goes back to the
true %age you last set. This is handy for when you accidentally check
something off.

	What if you set progress to 100 .. the item checks. Then you
uncheck it.. what happens?

	Does the progress go to 0%? It has to go to other than 100% ...

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: jacques@t...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 8:51pm
Subject: Re: A user request

At 08:13 30/05/2001 -0400, you wrote:

>Someone is asking to  have the priority (and thus progress) always
>visible in the details window, even when invisible on the main list
>display (ie: When the columns are turned off). He uses the priority to
>filter on, but does not wish to see it.

I read it too :

At first, I felt it as "cosmetic", but often I find myself cosmetic as an 
important part of the ease of use of an app, on such a tiny screen, and I 
apreciate having as much control as possible on what and how things are 
displayed (and I'm rather satisfied with already many Shadow options).

Now I wonder : if you say yes, you should maybe think anew what's the 
purpose and use, hence the design of the "Details" view.

 From "details" that view could evolve towards a kind of "Item control 
panel" :

* maybe, 4 lines (instead of 8) would be enough for item label
* on the freed space you could have all other item parameters : priority 
and progress popups
* and previous item, next item "control panels" (according to the tree view 
order).

That way, when you have an important update in a project, you could spare 
many taps to modify or fine tune a bunch of items.

That's just free wandering. I have to think if I'd really need it, and 
formally ask for it ;-)


Jacques

From: kencn@a...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:40pm
Subject: Re: A user request

Jeff,

As usual, I see your point regarding linking the progress bar to the 
checkbox.  But as to there not being enough room on the details 
screen for a check box, I've long wondered why we really need 8 lines 
reserved for text.  Maybe I use Shadow differently than others, but I 
don't think I've ever had an entry with 8 lines of text and on the 
odd ocaisions I might, I think I could live with a 5 or 6 lines 
displayed considering it is a scrolling field.  I'm sure others' 
usage differs but my entries tend to be 2 or 3 lines long at most 
with longer stuff put in notes.

Ken

> 	Theres just so little space left .. where to put a checkbox 
there?
> 
> 	Re: progresss bar .. I've avoided it so far. Consider, if 
your'e
> progress is 70% now, and you check the item, the item is displayed 
as
> 100%, and counted as 100%. What if you uncheck it? It goes back to 
the
> true %age you last set. This is handy for when you accidentally 
check
> something off.
> 
> 	What if you set progress to 100 .. the item checks. Then you
> uncheck it.. what happens?
> 
> 	Does the progress go to 0%? It has to go to other than 
100% ...
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Wed, 30 May 2001 kencn@a... wrote:

> screen for a check box, I've long wondered why we really need 8 lines 
> reserved for text.  Maybe I use Shadow differently than others, but I 
> don't think I've ever had an entry with 8 lines of text and on the 
> odd ocaisions I might, I think I could live with a 5 or 6 lines 
> displayed considering it is a scrolling field.  I'm sure others' 
> usage differs but my entries tend to be 2 or 3 lines long at most 
> with longer stuff put in notes.

	I too usually only have 5-10 words in that line; many people
however use quite a bit, so reduing the numebr of lines is the last thing
I consider doing. I'll think about these requests..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: glacefield@v...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:51pm
Subject: Re: A user request

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> 	I too usually only have 5-10 words in that line; many people
> however use quite a bit, so reduing the numebr of lines is the last
> thing I consider doing. I'll think about these requests..

Is there any reason why the text field can't be scrollable (aside 
from a small matter of programming :-) ? Then you could get away with 
only 3 or 4 lines showing and open up all that real estate for 
additional Details...

Just a thought...

Greg

From: glacefield@v...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:55pm
Subject: Re: A user request

Oops!  Sorry, Jeff, I had forgotten that field already *is* 
scrollable...

Still, I would think that since it is, you could shrink the number of 
concurrently displayed lines without getting too much flak...

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., glacefield@v... wrote:
> Is there any reason why the text field can't be scrollable (aside 
> from a small matter of programming :-) ? Then you could get away 
with 
> only 3 or 4 lines showing and open up all that real estate for 
> additional Details...

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Wed, 30 May 2001 glacefield@v... wrote:

> > 	I too usually only have 5-10 words in that line; many people
> > however use quite a bit, so reduing the numebr of lines is the last
> > thing I consider doing. I'll think about these requests..
> 
> Is there any reason why the text field can't be scrollable (aside 
> from a small matter of programming :-) ? Then you could get away with 
> only 3 or 4 lines showing and open up all that real estate for 
> additional Details...

	It is scrollable, but the issue is visible text. Scrolling is a
time killer...

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: frazure@m...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: How can shadow help me run my life?

Peter -

When I described Alpha files in my office, I was literally describing 
that my hard copy file folders were filed alphabetically.  Sorry for 
the confusion.  But...what is Alpha Wolf?

Mike


> I do have one question that I suspect borders on "it is in the 
manual (here
> GTD)".  What do you mean when you say, "My office is set up with 
alpha
> files."  I have heard of an Alpha Wolf but not an Alpha File.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Peter R. Grierson, Ph.D.
> 
> I can't spell and my typing is lousy.
> Is it too much to hope that my lousy typing
> will correct my poor spelling?

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:46am
Subject: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

You can only download this if you plan on emailing me or the list with    
your findings -- if it works as advertised and improves your life. If you 
download it, let me know if it works for you, so I can release it to the  
general public ASAP!

There are three main differences in 1.5.6 from 1.5.4:

1) You can now have multiple item types per list.

        o) In the details window, in the top right, you can override the  
items view, which by default is the same as the list's current view. 

        o) In the list prefs there is a setting "assuming siblings view", 
which if activated means new items will attempt to keep the same view as  
their siblings: Select an item, hit New, and the new item will have the   
same view as the selected item. Pick a item, hti New Child, and the new   
item will take the view of an already existing child, or the selected 
item, whichever comes first. If the pref is unselected, items always 
assume the list view.

2) The crash bug that occurred during some copy/cut/paste operations
should not occur anymore! (This is the main reason for this release -- I  
dislike crash bugs! :)

3) The conduit now shows itself as version 1.1 on the Palm-side hotsync
log, if you look. The 1.1 conduit changes the XML tag names ever so
slightly, and properly marks the ISO language code so that international
characters are recognized correctly.
        
        Please give it a shot and let me know!
                
NOTE: I know there are some annoyances for some people int he installer
(setup156.exe) for windows. I'm waiting for the installer vendor to fix
those bugs -- theyr'e out of my control :(

http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow156gen.zip
http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/binaries/shadow156win.zip


--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Bob Boudewyns  <boudewyns@b...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:07am
Subject: File Selector window

Is this the way this should work?

When I look at the File Selector window I see seven Files listed just now. Some of the lines show the list name and a file size-number and an icon. Some of lines also show (items checked/total items) information after the name. 

When I first reinstalled Shadow all the lines showed up without the (items checked/total items) information. As time passes one by one the information showed up on lines. I've come to realize I can cause the information to be displayed by opening a file and choosing to view it as a Tasklist. I can then return to the Checklist view and the information will remain on the File Selector screen.

This feels like odd behavior, so I thought I would mention it.

Bob Boudewyns
Boudewyns@B...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:46am
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Jeff:

I have downloaded the new version and will let you know of any 
problems.  Thanks for the consistent progress.

I can resist asking if having mixed types within a list was requested 
more than being able to select a category for each item?

Norman

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:58am
Subject: Feature Request/Thoughts

All:

Shadow's ability to create ToDOs provides a flexible approach to 
project planning.  In addition, this allows it to integrate well with 
DateBook.  However, I still crave a bit more flexibility.  In 
addition to ToDOs, I would like the ability to create memos from 
Shadow.

Imagine initiating a project within Shadow by adding a item.  Next, I 
would like to have notes associated with this new project.  Rather 
than leaving Shadow (to go to MemoPad to create a file), I would 
create a link to a MemoPad item.  The user could select one of the 
memos, or he could create a new memo by specifying a name.  Would 
others find this functionality useful?  

Norman

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:24pm
Subject: Re: File Selector window

On Wed, 30 May 2001, Bob Boudewyns wrote:

> Is this the way this should work?

	If a list's view has a visible checkbox, then the item count
should appear in the file listing. Otherwise, the check count shouldn't
show.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> I can resist asking if having mixed types within a list was requested 
> more than being able to select a category for each item?

	Much more.

	Actually, desktop app support is my main goal right now, but I
can't go releasing a Shadow update that only has desktop improvements for
Windows, leaving Generic and Mac behind.. so I bult some Palm features in.
So whenever 1.6 comes out, it'll be a step up from 1.5.x for everyone..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Jeff
First let me say that I believe the inclusion of different item types 
within a list, to be the single biggest advance in Shadow evolution 
since linking!

I would support this version as ready for full release with the 
following exceptions:-

1) Memorised zoom level.  I always zoom to the lowest practical level 
whilst working with a list.  Maximising screen real estate is 
essential to me and this does it effectively.  As a consequence I 
nearly always move from a zoomed Shadow list through a link to 
another app. and then return using McPhling.  Re-establishing the 
zoom level is an annoying extra step necessary prior to continuing in 
the list.

2) Custom List Settings.  As I understand the list types, 
the 'custom' option is available to any item but only in a single 
setting.  This setting is defined in list preferences.  The only way 
I have found to do this is to set the list to custom (in list 
preferences), adjust to the settings required, then return the list 
back to the required list type.  I presume this will become a more 
intuitive option in list preferences in the next version?

3) Set Program in Link Manager.  Here I have to admit to a major 
misunderstanding on my part!  Most of my links are to ToDos and 
Memos.  I have religiously set the same memo program every time I 
have created a new memo link (assuming each link could take a 
different memo app).  Last night I wanted to change from one memo app 
to another.  It took me 3 attempts before I realised that the program 
setting applies to the complete list.  Completely my mistake and now 
I understand, a perfectly workable system.  However for the sake of 
simplicity could I suggest that program settings be moved to List 
Preferences where that setting applies throughout the list?

4) New From.  The only bug I can report.  Datebook still does not 
show my list of appointments.  I only include this for completeness, 
it does not impact my use of Shadow and I know you have it on your 
list of problems.

I don't mean any of this to sound 'picky'.  The program is a major 
aspect of my Palm use!

Regards
Chris

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> Imagine initiating a project within Shadow by adding a item.  Next, I 
> would like to have notes associated with this new project.  Rather 
> than leaving Shadow (to go to MemoPad to create a file), I would 
> create a link to a MemoPad item.  The user could select one of the 
> memos, or he could create a new memo by specifying a name.  Would 
> others find this functionality useful?  

	Or hit /A (Menu, Add Note) or Details, Note, to add a note to the
item directly?

	There isn't an easy way for Shadow to launch Memopad, allow you to
enter a memo, and then when you exit, return to shadow and pick up which
memo you just created and link it. You'd have to go to memopad, create a
memo, return to shadow, and link to it. Seems like work.

	Is it not easier to just create the note in Shadow's normal note
system?

	I cuouild, perhaps, have an option on the note screen in Shadow
allowing you to export the note to a memo, and then delete it form shadow
and link to the memo version..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> First let me say that I believe the inclusion of different item types 
> within a list, to be the single biggest advance in Shadow evolution 
> since linking!

	heh. Let me know how you like the implementation. Its not as pure
as it could be, but it works the way Shadow has been built -- top retain
information, and let you change default views quickly. (ie: IF you change
an item to specifically Checklist, and then change the list to somethign
erlse.. the specific item will not change with the rest of the list.. its
overrridden. Is this cool? Also, if you chaneg an item to Note, it still
factors completion into percentages, since it has a percentage (defaulting
0%). So if you have an item as a task type, then change it override to
note, it still factors its last %age into %age calculations.. cool?)  Its
a complex thing to do :P

> I would support this version as ready for full release with the 
> following exceptions:-

	The next full release will have more desktop support; thats the
main thing. I'm hoping to cram in a the miscellaneous field that you can
enter anythign you like into (custom list widget), and maybe the
goto-return hack pref..

> 1) Memorised zoom level.  I always zoom to the lowest practical level 
> whilst working with a list.  Maximising screen real estate is 

	I'll be looking into this.

> I have found to do this is to set the list to custom (in list 
> preferences), adjust to the settings required, then return the list 
> back to the required list type.  I presume this will become a more 
> intuitive option in list preferences in the next version?

	How would you prefer it? I hide the Customize button, since new
users may be confused by its doing nothing unless list is in custom view
mode. I coudl make it always visible, and when you change custom settings
and hit OK, it coudl pop up an alert, "Do you wish to change this list to
a custom view? yes/no", where youcoudl hit No..

> to another.  It took me 3 attempts before I realised that the program 
> setting applies to the complete list.  Completely my mistake and now 
> I understand, a perfectly workable system.  However for the sake of 
> simplicity could I suggest that program settings be moved to List 
> Preferences where that setting applies throughout the list?

	The link goto settings are global to all lists. You set it once,
asnd it applies forever in all lists. Why is it in LM instead of prefs
like todo and datebook? Because there will soon be the ability to link to
a half dozen other things. Todo and datebook (and memo and addr, I
guess) don't vary.. everyone has them. But doc, bugme's, etc etc may or
may not exist on given machines.. so I figured I'd have the setter in the
location where they are linked to. I may change it around, since it is
cumbersom..

> 4) New From.  The only bug I can report.  Datebook still does not 
> show my list of appointments.  I only include this for completeness, 
> it does not impact my use of Shadow and I know you have it on your 
> list of problems.

	I'll be looking into it.. its quite starnge why this doesn't
work. Works fine for me of course, so makes it difficult to track down :P

> I don't mean any of this to sound 'picky'.  The program is a major 
> aspect of my Palm use!

	Hey, be picky -- if no one picked on it, I'd never know there was
bugs! :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:
> 
IF you change
> an item to specifically Checklist, and then change the list to 
somethign
> erlse.. the specific item will not change with the rest of the 
list.. its
> overrridden. Is this cool? 

Absolutely!

Also, if you chaneg an item to Note, it still
> factors completion into percentages, since it has a percentage 
(defaulting
> 0%). So if you have an item as a task type, then change it override 
to
> note, it still factors its last %age into %age calculations.. 
cool?)  Its
> a complex thing to do

Interesting.  I mix Note items amongst Checklist items as children of 
a Tasklist parent.  Does that mean that the parent will never show 
completed even if all the Checklist items are completed?

> 	The next full release will have more desktop support; thats 
the
> main thing. I'm hoping to cram in a the miscellaneous field that 
you can
> enter anythign you like into (custom list widget), and maybe the
> goto-return hack pref..

Miscellaneous Field would do it for me!

> 	How would you prefer it? I hide the Customize button, since 
new
> users may be confused by its doing nothing unless list is in custom 
view
> mode. I coudl make it always visible, and when you change custom 
settings
> and hit OK, it coudl pop up an alert, "Do you wish to change this 
list to
> a custom view? yes/no", where youcoudl hit No..

That would work.  Maybe emphasising the types in terms of List/Item 
rather than just List would also make it clearer, though I don't know 
how.

> 	The link goto settings are global to all lists. You set it 
once,
> asnd it applies forever in all lists. Why is it in LM instead of 
prefs
> like todo and datebook? Because there will soon be the ability to 
link to
> a half dozen other things. Todo and datebook (and memo and addr, I
> guess) don't vary.. everyone has them. But doc, bugme's, etc etc 
may or
> may not exist on given machines.. so I figured I'd have the setter 
in the
> location where they are linked to. I may change it around, since it 
is
> cumbersom..

If the app is set once be it for ToDo, Memo, Doc or anything else, 
then I think it should be set at an appropriate level.


Regards
Chris

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> Interesting.  I mix Note items amongst Checklist items as children of 
> a Tasklist parent.  Does that mean that the parent will never show 
> completed even if all the Checklist items are completed?

	Right; a parent, to be complete, requires all items underneath to
be complete, currently. If they're note items, you need to have them set
to 100%, even though they're not displaying a prog-bar.

	ie: This can be changed, but I'd like to get 1.5.6 out for the
bugfix. What is desirable?

	Only items currently viewing a prog-bar should count for progress?

	Or just display prio and prog options in the detail window always,
regardless of viewed widgets?

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:
> 
> 	Right; a parent, to be complete, requires all items 
underneath to
> be complete, currently. If they're note items, you need to have 
them set
> to 100%, even though they're not displaying a prog-bar.

I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore niether 
starts nor ends.  However I think that the most general solution 
should apply.  I am happy to set Note Items to 100% at creation and 
leave it at that - just as long as I know.  I think you're in for 
some emails unless its clear!

Regards
Chris

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

At 05:28 AM 05/31/2001, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>         Actually, desktop app support is my main goal right now,  ...

I'm happy for all these other people who are getting their little detailed 
requests fulfilled, but there's another category of people like me who have 
very different needs.  I live and die by my desktop, not my 
handheld.  Having desktop software will make Shadow about 1000 times more 
useful for me.

When I got my Palm, I ditched Outlook, ACT, and all the other "productivity 
aids" and started running my life totally by the Palm Desktop, as long as 
I'm at the desk in one of my three offices, which is most of the time.  I 
have my Palm sync'd to the Desktop at all three locations.  I use the 
handheld only when I'm at outside appointments or in transit.

The only reason I got Shadow is because of what for me is the one 
deficiency of the Palm Desktop - insufficient categories and no 
subcategories.  Now I have to go through the additional step every day of 
setting the Palm up on my desk with my Palm keyboard, to handle my detailed 
ToDo's in Shadow.  It's really a pain and I consider it a workaround at 
best.  When I can finally sync and have it all on the desktop, task 
management will finally be working for me like it should.

So PLEASE keep your nose to the desktop grindstone now until it's 
done!  Not only will it help me, but I think you'll find that it will 
dramatically increase your customer base.

Thanks!

Mary Ann

P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies) tutorial would be 
MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of, nor are we interested in, 
using the process of exploration and discovery to uncover all the wondrous 
detailed features of Shadow.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 3:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001 chris.greenwood@t... wrote:

> I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore niether 
> starts nor ends.  However I think that the most general solution 
> should apply.  I am happy to set Note Items to 100% at creation and 
> leave it at that - just as long as I know.  I think you're in for 
> some emails unless its clear!

	The feature isn't intended to launch until 1.6.0. So I can
suppress it in the current binary if you want, but I rather thought people
would like to play with an early incarnation ;)

	Or perhaps I'll get some time to work on it, and release a 1.5.7
or 1.5.8 beta with improvements. Mostly I want to get the clipboard bug
fix out.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: sjpanther01@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

Jeff:

I may have not been clear in my request.  I would not want Shadow to 
launch the MemoPad.  I would just like a simple link (similar to how 
ToDos currently work) created to the memo with the Shadow entry as 
its title.  Hopefully, this is clear.

My reason for the request is that I use Outlook primarily in my daily 
work.  The Palm/Shadow notes fields work fine on the Palm, but do not 
show up anywhere on the desktop or in other PIMs.  Consequently, I 
try to keep most of my notes in memos.


Norman


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:
> 
> > Imagine initiating a project within Shadow by adding a item.  
Next, I 
> > would like to have notes associated with this new project.  
Rather 
> > than leaving Shadow (to go to MemoPad to create a file), I would 
> > create a link to a MemoPad item.  The user could select one of 
the 
> > memos, or he could create a new memo by specifying a name.  Would 
> > others find this functionality useful?  
> 
> 	Or hit /A (Menu, Add Note) or Details, Note, to add a note to 
the
> item directly?
> 
> 	There isn't an easy way for Shadow to launch Memopad, allow 
you to
> enter a memo, and then when you exit, return to shadow and pick up 
which
> memo you just created and link it. You'd have to go to memopad, 
create a
> memo, return to shadow, and link to it. Seems like work.
> 
> 	Is it not easier to just create the note in Shadow's normal 
note
> system?
> 
> 	I cuouild, perhaps, have an option on the note screen in 
Shadow
> allowing you to export the note to a memo, and then delete it form 
shadow
> and link to the memo version..
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Feature Request/Thoughts

On Thu, 31 May 2001 sjpanther01@h... wrote:

> I may have not been clear in my request.  I would not want Shadow to 
> launch the MemoPad.  I would just like a simple link (similar to how 
> ToDos currently work) created to the memo with the Shadow entry as 
> its title.  Hopefully, this is clear.

	What shoudl be included in the memo, and what shoudl happen when
you inevitably change the data in the memo from your desktop? (ie: Shoudl
Shadow export the memo title, the attached note, priority, dates,
etc. Then if you change them, re-import them all?) Due to the free-form
nature of the memopad, it could get very messy indeed..

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

If in-line editing (which would be nice) makes drag and drop not 
work -- forget the in-line editing. For me, the drag and drop is one 
of the most useful items of an outlineer like Shadow. As a project 
moves along, I can track things in place or drag them into my next 
meeting on this subject.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:

> 	So I may add a pref to do it one way or the other. Its a lot 
of
> work, and a lot of rework. ie: Consider -- drag and drop. Right 
now, you
> drag to move an item, and drop it off. If in inline-edit 
interfacem, then
> does dragging hilight text instead of moving an item?

From: bstryd@a...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

My interest is in keeping the grafitti initiated new item. So easy. 
What other "new" items are needed in Shadow? Details, etc., are 
not "new" and edit a preference or a item style are not "new". If tap-
and-hold can pull editing options, then new is new. At least for me.

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., kevinprice@u... wrote:

> If Jeff and the majority of current Shadow user's were willing to 
trade the Grafitti-creation functionality for the quick and intuitive 
pop-up file creation type functionality, I'd say this is an idea 
worth considering.

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:41pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

> I'm happy for all these other people who are getting their
> little detailed requests fulfilled, but there's another
> category of people like me who have very different needs.  I
> live and die by my desktop, not my handheld.  Having desktop
> software will make Shadow about 1000 times more useful for me.
> 
> When I got my Palm, I ditched Outlook, ACT, and all the other
> "productivity aids" and started running my life totally by the
> Palm Desktop, as long as I'm at the desk in one of my three
> offices, which is most of the time.  I have my Palm sync'd to
> the Desktop at all three locations.  I use the handheld only
> when I'm at outside appointments or in transit.

I'm also very much looking forward to Shadow's desktop companion but 
we have to keep in mind that Shadow is primarily a Palm application.

Those little detailed requests as you call them are the result of 
valid needs on the part of many Shadow users. And Palm functionality 
can be used on the road as well as in the office. So with all the 
work that Jeff has been putting into desktop development lately, it 
seems only reasonable to me if he spends a little time on keeping the 
Palm-side up to par as well.

> The only reason I got Shadow is because of what for me is the
> one deficiency of the Palm Desktop - insufficient categories
> and no subcategories.  Now I have to go through the additional
> step every day of setting the Palm up on my desk with my Palm
> keyboard, to handle my detailed ToDo's in Shadow. It's really a
> pain and I consider it a workaround at best.  When I can finally
> sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> finally be working for me like it should.

This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin 
with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops in 
sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a lot 
of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what you're 
looking for.

> So PLEASE keep your nose to the desktop grindstone now until
> it's done!  Not only will it help me, but I think you'll find
> that it will dramatically increase your customer base.

I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom 
purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop companion 
in the making, should be equally addressed. 

> P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> Shadow.

Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a 
product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty 
straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to 
ask them in this group!

Roy.

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

> I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore
> niether starts nor ends.

I agree with Chris. If you chose for an item not to have a progress 
value/indicator, you probably did that for a good reason (i.e. there 
is no progress to monitor for that particular item). So I'd also 
prefer those items not to influence their parent's 
progress/completion status.

Roy.

From: 1drummer@m...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:53pm
Subject: RE: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

<If in-line editing (which would be nice) makes drag and drop not
<work -- forget the in-line editing. For me, the drag and drop is one
<of the most useful items of an outlineer like Shadow. As a project
<moves along, I can track things in place or drag them into my next
<meeting on this subject.

How about a toggle button (or shortcut stroke) that would switch between
in-line editing and drag-n-drop mode?  Or is that too much code to be
worthwhile?  Just a thought...

Gretchen

http://pugnut.tripod.com
********************************************
Just my 2¢ - take it, leave it, or make change.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:59pm
Subject: Re: Multiple item types in one list..

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., bstryd@a... wrote:
> If in-line editing (which would be nice) makes drag and drop not 
> work -- forget the in-line editing. For me, the drag and drop is
> one of the most useful items of an outlineer like Shadow. As a
> project moves along, I can track things in place or drag them
> into my next meeting on this subject.

Allow me to point to ListMaker again. :) In LM, when you tap an item, 
you can edit it in-place. If you tap-and-hold an item, the drag & 
drop functionality kicks in. This has always worked very well for me.

I'd like to see in-line editing as well; I think it's more intuitive 
and it alleviates the need for popping in and out of detail dialogs.

Roy.

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:02pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Roy van der Woning" <rvdw@x> wrote:
> > I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore
> > niether starts nor ends.
> 
> I agree with Chris. If you chose for an item not to have a progress 
> value/indicator, you probably did that for a good reason (i.e. 
there 
> is no progress to monitor for that particular item). So I'd also 
> prefer those items not to influence their parent's 
> progress/completion status.
> 
> Roy.

I, uh, "third" this.  :)

-Joe Chott

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:08pm
Subject: Re: A user request

> 	It is scrollable, but the issue is visible text. Scrolling
> is a time killer...

True. But if you put 8-line items in your list, you'll be doing a lot 
of scrolling in the list itself too. I agree that it makes more sense 
to keep your item titles short and put the rest in the memo. And I 
too have been wondering why such a large portion of screen space in 
the details dialog has been reserved for the item title.

Roy.

P.S.: in-line editing would solve this issue! (am I mean or what? :))

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > I only expect 'action items' to progress.  A note, therefore
> > niether starts nor ends.
> 
> I agree with Chris. If you chose for an item not to have a progress 
> value/indicator, you probably did that for a good reason (i.e. there 
> is no progress to monitor for that particular item). So I'd also 
> prefer those items not to influence their parent's 
> progress/completion status.

	Wholeheartedly agreed. I don't expect to hold back 1.5.6 for this,
though .. the main attraction is the bugfix for clipboard, and I thought
it'd be fun to leave in the feature since its been long desired, and 90%
implemented. I'll be improving on it as requests come in, so that its
fully realized for the 1.6.0 release.

	Good?

	btw .. what do you think of 1.5.6? :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: A user request

On Thu, 31 May 2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:

> > 	It is scrollable, but the issue is visible text. Scrolling
> > is a time killer...
> 
> True. But if you put 8-line items in your list, you'll be doing a lot 
> of scrolling in the list itself too. I agree that it makes more sense 
> to keep your item titles short and put the rest in the memo. And I 
> too have been wondering why such a large portion of screen space in 
> the details dialog has been reserved for the item title.

	I'll likely take off a line soon, to put in the checkbox. Maybe
move the view-override to it too, since being in the top right is
pseudo-uncool ;)

> P.S.: in-line editing would solve this issue! (am I mean or what? :))

	Bring it up in a few months. Its definitely not going to happen
for awhile.

		Jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > ... When I can finally
> > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > finally be working for me like it should.
>
>This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
>with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops in
>sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a lot
>of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what you're
>looking for.

I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all information at 
hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a majority 
of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant amount of 
time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it would be 
much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me the 
most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk, working 
on the desktop is MUCH easier.

>I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
>purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop companion
>in the making, should be equally addressed.

I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing about the 
desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental 
improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to make haste 
with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the 
potential customer base.

> > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > Shadow.
>
>Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
>product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty
>straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to
>ask them in this group!

Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* development.  Of 
course, that never happens, especially these days when everything is done 
at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote 
documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did it.  When 
you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in this 
community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets documented 
properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under 
development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner 
realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some tech writer 
to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be next to 
useless.

Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a tutorial.  It's 
hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The 
descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't tell you 
anything about the various applications of the the product and how to get 
started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user 
base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have different 
priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not most, are 
about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist, or about 
putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to me as 
just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it 
works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a newcomer 
to jump in with no idea of where to start.

Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making requests 
like everyone else.

Mary Ann

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

On Thu, 31 May 2001, Mary Ann Chapman wrote:

> >Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
> >product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty
> >straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to
> >ask them in this group!
> 
> Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* development.  Of 
> course, that never happens, especially these days when everything is done 
> at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote 
> documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did it.  When 

	You probably were the only one, but I'll go out on a limb, as I
always try and be rigourous when I can. Documentation is one of the most
important pieces of the puzzle. Shadow really does need a User's Guide,
and if you go back in the archives I've eluded to trying to write one a
few times. I just haven't the time. (And thats the truth, as my wife would
tell you .. I'm a workaholic and by no means lazy, I just can't get to
it! :)  And it is extremely time consuming -- so is development, but
Shadow is well developed so extending is not difficult. Writing a whole
new 100k document is daunting ;)

	Perhaps after 1.6.0 (or for 1.6.0) I'll sit for a week or two and
see what needs to be done..

> descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't tell you 
> anything about the various applications of the the product and how to get 
> started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user 
> base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

	What I'd like is more of what someone posted awhile back .. saying
"heres how it improved my life" with details. Thats extremely
important. One of the big problems is that I am not a typical user or even
a power user -- I'm a developer. I do things differently. If I need
something, I buidl it. I don't use other applications as much as most
people -- I build things. So writing user-perspective documents is harder
for me than it should be :/

> Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making requests 
> like everyone else.

	And thats good. Lets not have a big battle -- theres many types of
uses for the application, and each audience has its own agenda. Thats
cool. We'll work out the way to make everyone as happy as we can :)

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:26pm
Subject: Stupid question

I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how I 
might be able to do this?

-Joe Chott

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Thanks for your response.  You're obviously doing a great job when everyone 
is so defensive of you.  :-)

At 01:10 PM 05/31/2001, Jeff Mitchell wrote:
>... Writing a whole new 100k document is daunting ;)
>         Perhaps after 1.6.0 (or for 1.6.0) I'll sit for a week or two and
>see what needs to be done..

Well, here's a suggestion -- use Shadow to make a comprehensive multi-level 
outline, then just fill in the top level items.  That would be a good 
start.  Then you could slowly work your way down to the most tedious 
ones.  And in the meantime, we morons (non-techies) could have *something*.

>         What I'd like is more of what someone posted awhile back .. saying
>"heres how it improved my life" with details. Thats extremely
>important. One of the big problems is that I am not a typical user or even
>a power user -- I'm a developer. I do things differently. If I need
>something, I buidl it. I don't use other applications as much as most
>people -- I build things. So writing user-perspective documents is harder
>for me than it should be :/

That's what I was saying.  Most programmer-written user documentation is 
obtuse to the typical user.  This suggestion is a good one.  There are 
probably a lot of people using it for things you never thought of.

OK, here's my simpleton use:

In Shadow, I have a file for every client and for every other aspect of my 
life that has ToDo's (the symphony I'm president of, home maintenance - in 
my case a boat, planned purchases, financial tasks, etc.).  These outlines 
can be several levels deep, since for each client or other topic, I may 
have several projects going, with subprojects and individual tasks.  On my 
Palm, I have a ToDo category for today and each of the next few days coming 
up (about a week's worth), in addition to other categories like my grocery 
list.

I know this is a little convoluted, but it works for me.  Every day I check 
each of the days ahead and reallocate tasks.  When I see that a task that 
is waiting on Shadow can be fitted into my schedule, I link it to the Palm 
ToDo's, then give it a Palm category that puts it onto a specific upcoming 
day.  Meanwhile, I can go into Shadow and get an overview of everything 
that needs to be done sometime in the future.  For tasks that come up 
suddenly and have to be done in the next day or so, I bypass Shadow and add 
them as a Palm ToDo.

Shadow is probably overkill for this, but it was the only Palm-compatible 
application I could find that could do it.  I'm sure I could get much more 
use out of Shadow if I could easily find out about other capabilities, but 
there is ZERO time in my life to try to ferret them out.  So I'll look 
forward to whatever degree of user documentation you manage to put together.

Mary Ann

From: chris.greenwood@t...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:41pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

I have used peditPro and WordSmith.  Once the application is set 
(using the Set Program button in the Link Manager Add screen) memos 
are opened with that app.  Operation is faultless for either program.

Chris


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how I 
> might be able to do this?
> 
> -Joe Chott

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

On Thu, 31 May 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how I 
> might be able to do this?

	Some people have success with peditpro, others do not. PEditpro
does some nonstandard stuff, and has an API for other apps to use it. Its
annoying, but I guess I'll add some special pedit-friendly code one of
these days, just to make it easier for everyone. Naughty pedit :)

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

When I make the link, I have the following choices for pedit:

pedit32Launch...
peditLauncher
pedit04Launch...

I have tried all three of them.  If I select any of them, when I try 
to "go to" the link, the screen goes white, then goes right back to 
ShadowPlan.

I happen to own WordSmith too, so I tried that, and it works as I 
would expect.  So memopad and WordSmith work, whereas, my preferred 
choice, peditpro, does not.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., chris.greenwood@t... wrote:
> I have used peditPro and WordSmith.  Once the application is set 
> (using the Set Program button in the Link Manager Add screen) memos 
> are opened with that app.  Operation is faultless for either 
program.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> --- In shadow-discuss@y..., verxion@p... wrote:
> > I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> > memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how 
I 
> > might be able to do this?
> > 
> > -Joe Chott

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

Jeff,

I went ahead and provided Paul Nevai with the information.  I think 
he will be contacting you about whatever is making pedit unique.  I 
know he at least -*TRYS*- very very hard to "play by the rules".

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 verxion@p... wrote:
> 
> > I have peditpro, and while I can easily link from shadow plan to 
> > memopad, I cannot seem to link to peditpro.  Anyone aware of how 
I 
> > might be able to do this?
> 
> 	Some people have success with peditpro, others do not. 
PEditpro
> does some nonstandard stuff, and has an API for other apps to use 
it. Its
> annoying, but I guess I'll add some special pedit-friendly code one 
of
> these days, just to make it easier for everyone. Naughty pedit :)
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Doug Roberts  <doug@b...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:00pm
Subject: RE: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

I appreciate and echo Mary Ann's comments. Roy mentioned other solutions for
keeping in Synch. I've looked at a number and I think the Palm works the
best, but the lack of categories support is one of the major problems.
-Doug Roberts

-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Ann Chapman [mailto:chapman@f...]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:43 PM
To: shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com; shadow-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!


At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > ... When I can finally
> > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > finally be working for me like it should.
>
>This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
>with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops in
>sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a lot
>of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what you're
>looking for.

I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all information at
hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a majority
of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant amount of
time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it would be
much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me the
most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk, working
on the desktop is MUCH easier.

>I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
>purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop companion
>in the making, should be equally addressed.

I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing about the
desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental
improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to make haste
with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the
potential customer base.

> > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > Shadow.
>
>Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
>product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is pretty
>straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free to
>ask them in this group!

Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* development.  Of
course, that never happens, especially these days when everything is done
at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote
documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did it.  When
you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in this
community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets documented
properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under
development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner
realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some tech writer
to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be next to
useless.

Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a tutorial.  It's
hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The
descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't tell you
anything about the various applications of the the product and how to get
started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep the user
base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.

I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have different
priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not most, are
about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist, or about
putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to me as
just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it
works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a newcomer
to jump in with no idea of where to start.

Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making requests
like everyone else.

Mary Ann


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: verxion@p...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

Obviously I am missing something here.  What exactly is the "lack of 
categories support" ?

I have read this in several places, but I have been happily using 
categories since I started with the first palmpilot made by 
USRobotics. . .

-Joe Chott


--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Doug Roberts" <doug@b...> wrote:
> I appreciate and echo Mary Ann's comments. Roy mentioned other 
solutions for
> keeping in Synch. I've looked at a number and I think the Palm 
works the
> best, but the lack of categories support is one of the major 
problems.
> -Doug Roberts
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mary Ann Chapman [mailto:chapman@f...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:43 PM
> To: shadow-discuss@y...; shadow-discuss@y...
> Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!
> 
> 
> At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > > ... When I can finally
> > > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > > finally be working for me like it should.
> >
> >This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
> >with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops 
in
> >sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a 
lot
> >of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what 
you're
> >looking for.
> 
> I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all 
information at
> hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a 
majority
> of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant 
amount of
> time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it 
would be
> much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me 
the
> most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk, 
working
> on the desktop is MUCH easier.
> 
> >I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
> >purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop 
companion
> >in the making, should be equally addressed.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing 
about the
> desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental
> improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to 
make haste
> with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the
> potential customer base.
> 
> > > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > > Shadow.
> >
> >Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
> >product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is 
pretty
> >straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free 
to
> >ask them in this group!
> 
> Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during* 
development.  Of
> course, that never happens, especially these days when everything 
is done
> at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote
> documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did 
it.  When
> you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in 
this
> community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets 
documented
> properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under
> development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner
> realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some 
tech writer
> to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be 
next to
> useless.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a 
tutorial.  It's
> hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The
> descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't 
tell you
> anything about the various applications of the the product and how 
to get
> started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep 
the user
> base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.
> 
> I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have 
different
> priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not 
most, are
> about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist, 
or about
> putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to 
me as
> just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it
> works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a 
newcomer
> to jump in with no idea of where to start.
> 
> Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making 
requests
> like everyone else.
> 
> Mary Ann
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: nevai@m...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Stupid question

Hi Joe:

> pedit32Launch...
> peditLauncher
> pedit04Launch...
>
> I have tried all three of them.  If I select any of them, when I try

Of course not.

1. peditLauncher is obsolete
2. the other two don't take arguments
3. you need to use the pedit SDK.

Best regards, Paul [the pedit guy]

From: Mary Ann Chapman  <chapman@f...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

I use them happily, too, but there is a limit of 15.  I need to have a 
category for each client, and within each client, I need to be able to list 
various projects and tasks within those projects.  Even sticking only to 
active clients and projects, that's way more than 15, and then there's no 
category left for anything else like my grocery list.  There's NO WAY to do 
it in ToDo's on the Palm.  If it had either unlimited categories or 
subcategories within categories, I could work it out, but neither is available.

Mary Ann

At 04:03 PM 05/31/2001, verxion@p... wrote:
>Obviously I am missing something here.  What exactly is the "lack of
>categories support" ?
>
>I have read this in several places, but I have been happily using
>categories since I started with the first palmpilot made by
>USRobotics. . .
>
>-Joe Chott
>
>
>--- In shadow-discuss@y..., "Doug Roberts" <doug@b...> wrote:
> > I appreciate and echo Mary Ann's comments. Roy mentioned other
>solutions for
> > keeping in Synch. I've looked at a number and I think the Palm
>works the
> > best, but the lack of categories support is one of the major
>problems.
> > -Doug Roberts
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mary Ann Chapman [mailto:chapman@f...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:43 PM
> > To: shadow-discuss@y...; shadow-discuss@y...
> > Subject: Re: [shadow-discuss] Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!
> >
> >
> > At 11:41 AM 05/31/2001, Roy van der Woning wrote:
> > > > ... When I can finally
> > > > sync and have it all on the desktop, task management will
> > > > finally be working for me like it should.
> > >
> > >This makes me wonder why you chose a Palm based solution to begin
> > >with. It seems like you use your Palm mainly to keep your desktops
>in
> > >sync and there are far more easy ways to do that. As there are a
>lot
> > >of competent desktop task management solutions if that's what
>you're
> > >looking for.
> >
> > I chose it because it gave me the flexibility to have all
>information at
> > hand and make changes as necessary at all times.  I'm at a desk a
>majority
> > of the time, but I'm at appointments and in transit a significant
>amount of
> > time.  If Palm had no syncing ability, I'd still use it, but it
>would be
> > much less convenient.  The thing that has increased its value to me
>the
> > most since getting it is the Palm keyboard.  But sitting at a desk,
>working
> > on the desktop is MUCH easier.
> >
> > >I think that the wishes of the existing customers, many of whom
> > >purchased Shadow before there even was a conduit or desktop
>companion
> > >in the making, should be equally addressed.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing
>about the
> > desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see is incremental
> > improvements in the Palm version.  I'm just encouraging Jeff to
>make haste
> > with the desktop, and pointing out that it will vastly increase the
> > potential customer base.
> >
> > > > P.S.  After that, a moron-level (meaning for non-techies)
> > > > tutorial would be MOST appreciated.  We're not all capable of,
> > > > nor are we interested in, using the process of exploration and
> > > > discovery to uncover all the wondrous detailed features of
> > > > Shadow.
> > >
> > >Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially for a
> > >product that is still under development. The use of Shadow is
>pretty
> > >straightforward but if you have any specific questions, feel free
>to
> > >ask them in this group!
> >
> > Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during*
>development.  Of
> > course, that never happens, especially these days when everything
>is done
> > at warp speed.  When I was doing software development, I wrote
> > documentation as I went.  I may have been the only one, but I did
>it.  When
> > you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most people in
>this
> > community, it's difficult to see the overview, and it never gets
>documented
> > properly.  And really, when will it ever not be "still under
> > development'?  With most software products, at some point the owner
> > realizes that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some
>tech writer
> > to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns out to be
>next to
> > useless.
> >
> > Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a
>tutorial.  It's
> > hard to ask questions about features you don't know are there.  The
> > descriptions of screens that we have now are good, but they don't
>tell you
> > anything about the various applications of the the product and how
>to get
> > started using them.  The lack of a good tutorial will forever keep
>the user
> > base restricted.  If that's what Jeff and the community want, fine.
> >
> > I'm just pointing out that not all users are alike and some have
>different
> > priorities.  I do scan the posts to this list, and many, if not
>most, are
> > about the minute details of features that I don't even know exist,
>or about
> > putting in and taking out hacks that are of no interest or use to
>me as
> > just a user.  When I read "OK, I pulled out all the hacks and now it
> > works", I just want to run the other way.  It's intimidating to a
>newcomer
> > to jump in with no idea of where to start.
> >
> > Jeff is doing a great job and I'm not complaining, just making
>requests
> > like everyone else.
> >
> > Mary Ann
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>shadow-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Stupid question

On Thu, 31 May 2001 verxion@p... wrote:

> I went ahead and provided Paul Nevai with the information.  I think 
> he will be contacting you about whatever is making pedit unique.  I 
> know he at least -*TRYS*- very very hard to "play by the rules".

	We've already talked about it, and I have what I need.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Stupid question

On Thu, 31 May 2001 nevai@m... wrote:

> Best regards, Paul [the pedit guy]

	Wow, waycool to have you posting in the Shadow forums :)

	Paul and I chatted earlier and he fed me the necessary bits from
the API. Its a matter of free time and adding the custom stuff for
pedit.  As mentioned, I've spent the last while working on the desktop
side of Shadow, instead of focusing on the palm side.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: egroups@R...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 1:36am
Subject: Exporting Shadow Info

I'm new to Shadow, having recently registered. I like the product and 
am trying to use it to organize my life (although that may be a 
hopeless task). 

One function I'm trying to use Shadow for is a project that I am 
heading up. I put in the tasks and sub tasks. Then I exported the 
file to memo, put it in Word and distributed it to the people 
involved in the task. Great first step.

Next week we are meeting and will determine target dates for the 
tasks. I can see how Shadow can handle this easily and I can filter 
them in Shadow. But what I also need is a way to tell everyone the 
tasks *with Target Dates*. Unfortuntately none of the exports 
includes dates (unless I'm missing something, please tell me).

I understand a desktop version is coming (I can't wait!). I also 
understand there is an XML file created on my computer whenever a 
HotSync is done. Unfortunately I don't have time to learn how to code 
XML. Although I've done a lot of programming, I want someting simple.

So here's my request: Is there a *simple* way to get a Shadow file 
with Target dates into Word (or any other readable format)?

Thanks for your ideas.

From: Jeff Mitchell  <support@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 1:56am
Subject: Re: Exporting Shadow Info

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 egroups@R... wrote:

> Next week we are meeting and will determine target dates for the 
> tasks. I can see how Shadow can handle this easily and I can filter 
> them in Shadow. But what I also need is a way to tell everyone the 
> tasks *with Target Dates*. Unfortuntately none of the exports 
> includes dates (unless I'm missing something, please tell me).

	I can easily add this.. I just want someone to tell me exact
layout I should use that makes it easiest for everyone :)

> So here's my request: Is there a *simple* way to get a Shadow file 
> with Target dates into Word (or any other readable format)?

	Not yet; the dates aren't included :(

	If a few of you agree on formatyting, I'll put it in soon.

		jeff

--
"It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own micro
circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he is?"
-- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: verxion@p...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 2:07am
Subject: Re: Stupid question

Ok, time for the idiot to let you in on the truth. . .

Paul said that peditLauncher was obsolete.  I didn't really 
understand what he meant.  All I knew was that I did NOT see 
a "peditpro" listed as a possible app to be launched by ShadowPlan, I 
saw three "peditXXLauncher" files, where XX was nothing, where it was 
04, and where it was 32.  After Paul said what he said, I looked 
closely on my flash rom, I had a pedit!, and a pedit04!, as well as 
pedit32!, and peditpro.  The problem was that the pedit! icon had the 
very same appid as pedit04!, and so it wasn't showing up under 
the "app" listing.  This was somehow causing peditpro to not show up 
in the shadowplan file listing.  So it was no fault of ShadowPlan's 
and no fault of pedit's.

I am -*VERY*- sincerely sorry for having troubled both of you with 
this, I just could not figure it out and it looked like other people 
had this issue as well.

-Joe Chott

--- In shadow-discuss@y..., Jeff Mitchell <support@s...> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2001 nevai@m... wrote:
> 
> > Best regards, Paul [the pedit guy]
> 
> 	Wow, waycool to have you posting in the Shadow forums :)
> 
> 	Paul and I chatted earlier and he fed me the necessary bits 
from
> the API. Its a matter of free time and adding the custom stuff for
> pedit.  As mentioned, I've spent the last while working on the 
desktop
> side of Shadow, instead of focusing on the palm side.
> 
> 		jeff
> 
> --
> "It's murder out there. You can't even travel around in your own 
micro
> circuits without permission from 'Master Control Program'. I mean,
> sending *ME* down here to play games.... Who does he calculate he 
is?"
> -- Peter Jurasik as Crom, _Tron_

From: tombishop@q...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 3:03am
Subject: Filter for NO Target Date

Is it possible to filter for NO target date?

From: Peter R Grierson  <peter.grierson@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 3:18am
Subject: Re: How can shadow help me run my life?

On Thu, 31 May 2001 Mike frazure@m...
Wrote: But...what is an Alpha Wolf?

=====
An Alpha Wolf is the dominant male wolf.  He is the reason  for the phrase,
"The Leader of the Pack"

Peter R.

I can't spell and my typing is lousy.
Is it too much to hope that my lousy typing
will correct my poor spelling?

From: Roy van der Woning  <rvdw@x...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:25am
Subject: Re: Shadow 1.5.6 BETA Released!

> I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't.  But I've been hearing
> about the desktop since before I bought Shadow, and all I see
> is incremental improvements in the Palm version.

I don't think that's a matter of giving Palm updates a higher 
priority but rather because of the fact that those small updates are 
vastly less time consuming than building a complete desktop 
application and a complementing conduit from scratch. I'm sure, even 
though I'm not Jeff's personal secretary, that most of hist time 
still goes to desktop development at this moment. Still, there are 
lots of Shadow users who may never even use the desktop or for whom 
relatively little time consuming corrections could make their lives 
easier. If on a total projected implementation span of 4 months this 
should delay the release of the desktop component by a few days, then 
I think that's defendable.

> > Writing documentation is a time consuming process, especially
> > for a product that is still under development. The use of
> > Shadow is pretty straightforward but if you have any specific
> > questions, feel free to ask them in this group!
> 
> Au contraire!  The time to write documentation is *during*
> development.  Of course, that never happens, especially these
> days when everything is done at warp speed.  When I was doing
> software development, I wrote documentation as I went.  I may
> have been the only one, but I did it.

I'm a software developer myself and I don't do it (writing 
documentation along the way that is). I did make a feeble attempt at 
this once, but soon gave up once I found out that I frequently had to 
re-write complete sections of my manual because the user decided that 
he wanted things to work a little different. Before long, I spent 
more time on documenting than I did on developing.

> When you know the product as well as Jeff and apparently most
> people in this community, it's difficult to see the overview,
> and it never gets documented properly.

Jeff already pointed out in one of his posts that he is a developer, 
not a user. I can relate to that very well. Developers are often 
either unable, or less able to write good a good user manual for 
their software, simply because their approach is technical, not 
functional.

> And really, when will it ever not be "still under development'?

When you issue a public release. That's the point in time when you 
(the developer) decide that you have come to an acceptable level of 
stability, functionality and user acceptance. And that's also the 
only time when a user manual is required. Intermediate (beta) 
releases are only aimed at beta-testers who choose to work with 
incomplete software and lack of documentation.

> With most software products, at some point the owner realizes
> that the documentation is inadequate and appoints some tech
> writer to try to fathom it and produce something, which turns
> out to be next to useless.

Only if the tech writer is next to useless in his job. A good tech 
writer should be able to talk both developer and user jive, 
communicate with the developer to make sure that he got his facts 
straight, and have his document proof-read by a cross section of the 
targeted customer base.

> Anyway, I'm not asking for complete documentation, just a
> tutorial.  It's hard to ask questions about features you don't
> know are there.  The descriptions of screens that we have now
> are good, but they don't tell you anything about the various
> applications of the the product and how to get started using
> them.

This I agree with, and it's a problem with most software these days. 
I remember the day when Microsoft decided to replace their back-
breaking multi-volume product manuals with task orie